CAP Talk

General Discussion => Membership => Topic started by: PHall on January 14, 2020, 07:00:28 pm

Title: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: PHall on January 14, 2020, 07:00:28 pm
(NOTE: This part of the "Perfection versus progress (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=24807.0)" topic was split off into its own thread to facilitate further discussion on the subject of NCOs. Thread my seem a little discombobulated due to the split.  Its my first time splitting a thread on CAP-Talk!  -NIN)


Quote from: rltw2017 on January 14, 2020, 06:34:10 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on January 14, 2020, 04:24:57 pm
Quote from: JohhnyD on January 14, 2020, 06:01:09 am
Some Wing PAO types are taking control of local social media. Not regulation, but it is happening. So much for local squadron control!


Those "Wing PAO types" are volunteers like everyone else, inconsistently trained, mixed experience,
possibly taking the role on as a 5th job when they originally joined to fly or GSAR or something.

I'm the first person to call out higher HQs, especially NHQ, for shenanigans, 1/2-baked "iders", and errors
of both omission and commission, but at some point it's on you and the local CC if people vertical or horizontal are
directing actions that cause you angst.

The first time it's an anomaly, and you take the actions to correct understanding.  The second time you
have to start making decisions as to whether it's you that needs correcting, and by the third time
you need to either draw the line or disengage, but just sitting back and wearing it as histrionics
isn't going to help or fix anything, and its especially unhealthy for the respective member.

I've had more then a few occasions where I realized that things would not change, so I needed to
bid the activity, unit, or the organization as a whole, adieu.  In some cases, reality set in and my
phone rang, in others, all parties moved on.  Angst was left (mostly) at the door.

It's both amusing and disappointing when people think that an organization like CAP is going to
be somehow immune to the same foibles, politics, and frailties that every other PTA, condo board,
local council, FD, LEA, the military, and corporate organizations are subject to.


A lot of problems, this one included, could be solved with a CC that is willing to put his/her tail on the line for their people. Leaders are supposed to serve their subordinates, not their superiors.


So when do you plan to trade your stripes for bars and become a CC so you can show us how it's supposed to be done?
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Eclipse on January 14, 2020, 07:05:44 pm
Quote from: PHall on January 14, 2020, 07:00:28 pm
So when do you plan to trade your stripes for bars and become a CC so you can show us how it's supposed to be done?


Flat Tire Axiom #3.

Or is it impossible for NCOs to understand what makes a good leader without raising your own hand?
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: rltw2017 on January 14, 2020, 07:38:34 pm
Quote from: PHall on January 14, 2020, 07:00:28 pm
Quote from: rltw2017 on January 14, 2020, 06:34:10 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on January 14, 2020, 04:24:57 pm
Quote from: JohhnyD on January 14, 2020, 06:01:09 am
Some Wing PAO types are taking control of local social media. Not regulation, but it is happening. So much for local squadron control!


Those "Wing PAO types" are volunteers like everyone else, inconsistently trained, mixed experience,
possibly taking the role on as a 5th job when they originally joined to fly or GSAR or something.

I'm the first person to call out higher HQs, especially NHQ, for shenanigans, 1/2-baked "iders", and errors
of both omission and commission, but at some point it's on you and the local CC if people vertical or horizontal are
directing actions that cause you angst.

The first time it's an anomaly, and you take the actions to correct understanding.  The second time you
have to start making decisions as to whether it's you that needs correcting, and by the third time
you need to either draw the line or disengage, but just sitting back and wearing it as histrionics
isn't going to help or fix anything, and its especially unhealthy for the respective member.

I've had more then a few occasions where I realized that things would not change, so I needed to
bid the activity, unit, or the organization as a whole, adieu.  In some cases, reality set in and my
phone rang, in others, all parties moved on.  Angst was left (mostly) at the door.

It's both amusing and disappointing when people think that an organization like CAP is going to
be somehow immune to the same foibles, politics, and frailties that every other PTA, condo board,
local council, FD, LEA, the military, and corporate organizations are subject to.


A lot of problems, this one included, could be solved with a CC that is willing to put his/her tail on the line for their people. Leaders are supposed to serve their subordinates, not their superiors.


So when do you plan to trade your stripes for bars and become a CC so you can show us how it's supposed to be done?


Luckily we have a CC currently that is more than willing to stand on the carpet for us. The day that that is no longer the case, I'll be happy to put in my packet to transition over to the officer side. Until then, I provide my thoughts to the Wing senior enlisted and Squadron CC from my position as squadron senior enlisted.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: rltw2017 on January 14, 2020, 07:44:22 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on January 14, 2020, 07:05:44 pm
Quote from: PHall on January 14, 2020, 07:00:28 pm
So when do you plan to trade your stripes for bars and become a CC so you can show us how it's supposed to be done?


Flat Tire Axiom #3.

Or is it impossible for NCOs to understand what makes a good leader without raising your own hand?


I have noticed that many members of this board don't seem to appreciate someone trying to take the NCO program within CAP seriously. Understandable, as NHQ has neglected the program for years, but also very sad since it's a program with a great deal of promise from a continuity and professionalism standpoint.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Eclipse on January 14, 2020, 07:50:19 pm
Quote from: rltw2017 on January 14, 2020, 07:44:22 pm
I have noticed that many members of this board don't seem to appreciate someone trying to take the NCO program within CAP seriously. Understandable, as NHQ has neglected the program for years, but also very sad since it's a program with a great deal of promise from a continuity and professionalism standpoint.


That's because there is no NCO "Program", only a very small number of members who are afforded the
benefit of wearing their military grade vs working the CAP program.  No different then military officers.

Other then the prohibition on commanding, which is regularly waived (or has been historically) for expedience, there is no
segregation of status or responsibility, nor could CAP survive that.

As I've said 1MM times, we need NCOs because of their experience and general competence, but that's as members,
same as LEO, FDs, medical and other professionals who know how to exist in team environments and can sacrifice
the "me" for the good of the team.

But on the whole, CAP has no more "need" of "NCOs" per se, then they need Officers, since both are irrelevant to
any single duty.

And in this case, the point made has nothing to do with you being an NCO or not, it's just someone trying to make hay
out of a flat tire.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: PHall on January 14, 2020, 08:54:48 pm
Quote from: rltw2017 on January 14, 2020, 07:44:22 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on January 14, 2020, 07:05:44 pm
Quote from: PHall on January 14, 2020, 07:00:28 pm
So when do you plan to trade your stripes for bars and become a CC so you can show us how it's supposed to be done?


Flat Tire Axiom #3.

Or is it impossible for NCOs to understand what makes a good leader without raising your own hand?


I have noticed that many members of this board don't seem to appreciate someone trying to take the NCO program within CAP seriously. Understandable, as NHQ has neglected the program for years, but also very sad since it's a program with a great deal of promise from a continuity and professionalism standpoint.


Sorry, but I did try to do the NCO route about 10 years ago. Went back to officer rank after about three years because the stripes more of an obstacle then a help.
Things like being told I could not be a Primary Training Officer at Encampment because a MSgt can't be over a 2d Lt. Never mind this was my 20th encampment...
At least in the cadet program, it just didn't seem to work.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: rltw2017 on January 14, 2020, 09:03:29 pm
Quote from: PHall on January 14, 2020, 08:54:48 pm
Quote from: rltw2017 on January 14, 2020, 07:44:22 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on January 14, 2020, 07:05:44 pm
Quote from: PHall on January 14, 2020, 07:00:28 pm
So when do you plan to trade your stripes for bars and become a CC so you can show us how it's supposed to be done?


Flat Tire Axiom #3.

Or is it impossible for NCOs to understand what makes a good leader without raising your own hand?


I have noticed that many members of this board don't seem to appreciate someone trying to take the NCO program within CAP seriously. Understandable, as NHQ has neglected the program for years, but also very sad since it's a program with a great deal of promise from a continuity and professionalism standpoint.


Sorry, but I did try to do the NCO route about 10 years ago. Went back to officer rank after about three years because the stripes more of an obstacle then a help.
Things like being told I could not be a Primary Training Officer at Encampment because a MSgt can't be over a 2d Lt. Never mind this was my 20th encampment...
At least in the cadet program, it just didn't seem to work.


I am legitimately sorry to hear that. Our wing SEA has been doing great things trying to empower NCOs, but I have seen how many wings treat members of the NCO corps. I do believe that we are at a turning point for NCOs in CAP. Either NHQ is going to turn out a coherent plan to start letting non prior service in with stripes instead of as officers, or it'll go away entirely. I don't know of anyone, myself included, who likes how the NCO program has been performing for the last almost 7 years.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: NIN on January 14, 2020, 09:28:50 pm
Quote from: rltw2017 on January 14, 2020, 07:44:22 pm
I have noticed that many members of this board don't seem to appreciate someone trying to take the NCO program within CAP seriously. Understandable, as NHQ has neglected the program for years, but also very sad since it's a program with a great deal of promise from a continuity and professionalism standpoint.


I'm completely OK with an NCO corps, if CAP can ever decouple itself from the "XYZ Officer" paradigm and allow the assignment of "XYZ NCO" or even my favorite "Superintendent" to start with.

The problem, too, is that we have a very, very long embedded history of "officers" doing "enlisted" jobs.  Supply Officer = "Supply Clerk" and no ability to assign a "Supply Sergeant" or "Supply NCO". And of course, we completely lack a junior enlisted corps for the more day-to-day tasks ("Process Request for Decoration" is a "Unit Personnel Clerk" job, not a "Personnel Officer" job, sort of, at least if you apply the RM paradigm). 

So the NCO program is trying very hard to overcome 75 years of institutional inertia as it pertains to "Officers doing jobs that an NCO would normally accomplish."

Don't get me started about "Officers doing NCO business" as it pertains to leadership.

However, at the same time, if we can get better definition for the NCO Corps that doesn't actually use the words in the definition, that would be helpful.

Q: "Why does CAP need an NCO corps for?"
A: "Because we must have a strong NCO corps."

To some extent its a bit of a self-licking ice cream cone.

If CAP had more well-defined the role of the CAP NCO, provided the provisions to assign NCOs to NCO-type positions throughout the organization (more than just "Squadron NCO" or "Command NCO," with duty positions to match) BEFORE we recruited and assigned NCOs, we might have a fighting chance at this.

Instead, we brought a boatload of NCOs into an organization that largely had no clue how to handle NCOs, whether in a RealMilitary™ paradigm or not, didn't define what their role is, didn't explain to people who had no idea what an NCO is how to work with and employ NCOs, and said "Yep, here ya go. NCOs for your NCO program.."

And we see how that has worked out. 

Mods we might need a little thread splitting action here. :) NVM, handled it myself!
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Fester on January 15, 2020, 06:50:28 am
Quote from: rltw2017 on January 14, 2020, 07:38:34 pm
Quote from: PHall on January 14, 2020, 07:00:28 pm
Quote from: rltw2017 on January 14, 2020, 06:34:10 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on January 14, 2020, 04:24:57 pm
Quote from: JohhnyD on January 14, 2020, 06:01:09 am
Some Wing PAO types are taking control of local social media. Not regulation, but it is happening. So much for local squadron control!


Those "Wing PAO types" are volunteers like everyone else, inconsistently trained, mixed experience,
possibly taking the role on as a 5th job when they originally joined to fly or GSAR or something.

I'm the first person to call out higher HQs, especially NHQ, for shenanigans, 1/2-baked "iders", and errors
of both omission and commission, but at some point it's on you and the local CC if people vertical or horizontal are
directing actions that cause you angst.

The first time it's an anomaly, and you take the actions to correct understanding.  The second time you
have to start making decisions as to whether it's you that needs correcting, and by the third time
you need to either draw the line or disengage, but just sitting back and wearing it as histrionics
isn't going to help or fix anything, and its especially unhealthy for the respective member.

I've had more then a few occasions where I realized that things would not change, so I needed to
bid the activity, unit, or the organization as a whole, adieu.  In some cases, reality set in and my
phone rang, in others, all parties moved on.  Angst was left (mostly) at the door.

It's both amusing and disappointing when people think that an organization like CAP is going to
be somehow immune to the same foibles, politics, and frailties that every other PTA, condo board,
local council, FD, LEA, the military, and corporate organizations are subject to.


A lot of problems, this one included, could be solved with a CC that is willing to put his/her tail on the line for their people. Leaders are supposed to serve their subordinates, not their superiors.


So when do you plan to trade your stripes for bars and become a CC so you can show us how it's supposed to be done?


Luckily we have a CC currently that is more than willing to stand on the carpet for us. The day that that is no longer the case, I'll be happy to put in my packet to transition over to the officer side. Until then, I provide my thoughts to the Wing senior enlisted and Squadron CC from my position as squadron senior enlisted.


I disagree that leaders are supposed to serve their subordinates, not their superiors.

In my professional life, I have 3 masters.  All worth serving, protecting and taking care of - my owner, my staff, my customers.  All 3 are equally important in my mind as my job would cease to exist if any of the 3 went away.

In my CAP career as a highly-functioning (in my opinion, anyway :) ) CC in the same wing as you are, rltw2017, I fully believe I have 4 masters.  All worth serving, protecting and taking care of - my subordinates, my superiors, my parents of cadets and my customers (USAF, other agencies, etc...)  Again, all 4 are equally important and if any of the 4 go away, I'll be left leading no one.

Just my thoughts.
Title: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: PHall on January 15, 2020, 04:24:37 pm
Doesn't help that the "CAP NCO Corps" was the pet project of just one National Commander and that their successors have not really supported it because it's basically a solution looking for a problem.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Phil Hirons, Jr. on January 15, 2020, 05:23:48 pm
Quote from: PHall on January 14, 2020, 08:54:48 pm
Sorry, but I did try to do the NCO route about 10 years ago. Went back to officer rank after about three years because the stripes more of an obstacle then a help.
Things like being told I could not be a Primary Training Officer at Encampment because a MSgt can't be over a 2d Lt. Never mind this was my 20th encampment...
At least in the cadet program, it just didn't seem to work.


:o :o Right, because never in the history of CAP has a Lt Col had a duty assignment under a Lt.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Holding Pattern on January 15, 2020, 05:41:39 pm
Quote from: Phil Hirons, Jr. on January 15, 2020, 05:23:48 pm
Quote from: PHall on January 14, 2020, 08:54:48 pm
Sorry, but I did try to do the NCO route about 10 years ago. Went back to officer rank after about three years because the stripes more of an obstacle then a help.
Things like being told I could not be a Primary Training Officer at Encampment because a MSgt can't be over a 2d Lt. Never mind this was my 20th encampment...
At least in the cadet program, it just didn't seem to work.


:o :o Right, because never in the history of CAP has a Lt Col had a duty assignment under a Lt.


You would think that with ICS caring about quals over rank we'd be past silliness like that throughout the rest of the org, but there are still some people that get overly hung up on it for no good reason.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: rltw2017 on January 15, 2020, 06:17:03 pm
Quote from: Fester on January 15, 2020, 06:50:28 am
Quote from: rltw2017 on January 14, 2020, 07:38:34 pm
Quote from: PHall on January 14, 2020, 07:00:28 pm
Quote from: rltw2017 on January 14, 2020, 06:34:10 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on January 14, 2020, 04:24:57 pm
Quote from: JohhnyD on January 14, 2020, 06:01:09 am
Some Wing PAO types are taking control of local social media. Not regulation, but it is happening. So much for local squadron control!


Those "Wing PAO types" are volunteers like everyone else, inconsistently trained, mixed experience,
possibly taking the role on as a 5th job when they originally joined to fly or GSAR or something.

I'm the first person to call out higher HQs, especially NHQ, for shenanigans, 1/2-baked "iders", and errors
of both omission and commission, but at some point it's on you and the local CC if people vertical or horizontal are
directing actions that cause you angst.

The first time it's an anomaly, and you take the actions to correct understanding.  The second time you
have to start making decisions as to whether it's you that needs correcting, and by the third time
you need to either draw the line or disengage, but just sitting back and wearing it as histrionics
isn't going to help or fix anything, and its especially unhealthy for the respective member.

I've had more then a few occasions where I realized that things would not change, so I needed to
bid the activity, unit, or the organization as a whole, adieu.  In some cases, reality set in and my
phone rang, in others, all parties moved on.  Angst was left (mostly) at the door.

It's both amusing and disappointing when people think that an organization like CAP is going to
be somehow immune to the same foibles, politics, and frailties that every other PTA, condo board,
local council, FD, LEA, the military, and corporate organizations are subject to.


A lot of problems, this one included, could be solved with a CC that is willing to put his/her tail on the line for their people. Leaders are supposed to serve their subordinates, not their superiors.


So when do you plan to trade your stripes for bars and become a CC so you can show us how it's supposed to be done?


Luckily we have a CC currently that is more than willing to stand on the carpet for us. The day that that is no longer the case, I'll be happy to put in my packet to transition over to the officer side. Until then, I provide my thoughts to the Wing senior enlisted and Squadron CC from my position as squadron senior enlisted.


I disagree that leaders are supposed to serve their subordinates, not their superiors.

In my professional life, I have 3 masters.  All worth serving, protecting and taking care of - my owner, my staff, my customers.  All 3 are equally important in my mind as my job would cease to exist if any of the 3 went away.

In my CAP career as a highly-functioning (in my opinion, anyway :) ) CC in the same wing as you are, rltw2017, I fully believe I have 4 masters.  All worth serving, protecting and taking care of - my subordinates, my superiors, my parents of cadets and my customers (USAF, other agencies, etc...)  Again, all 4 are equally important and if any of the 4 go away, I'll be left leading no one.

Just my thoughts.


I can get behind that line of thinking. I have nothing more to add. Will you be at the wing function this weekend?
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: JayT on January 15, 2020, 08:49:43 pm
Quote from: Holding Pattern on January 15, 2020, 05:41:39 pm
Quote from: Phil Hirons, Jr. on January 15, 2020, 05:23:48 pm
Quote from: PHall on January 14, 2020, 08:54:48 pm
Sorry, but I did try to do the NCO route about 10 years ago. Went back to officer rank after about three years because the stripes more of an obstacle then a help.
Things like being told I could not be a Primary Training Officer at Encampment because a MSgt can't be over a 2d Lt. Never mind this was my 20th encampment...
At least in the cadet program, it just didn't seem to work.


:o :o Right, because never in the history of CAP has a Lt Col had a duty assignment under a Lt.


You would think that with ICS caring about quals over rank we'd be past silliness like that throughout the rest of the org, but there are still some people that get overly hung up on it for no good reason.


Well, in most organizations, qualification and rank are tied together. A firefighter lieutenant WILL be in charge of a firefighter in almost every situation. CAP is unique in that regard.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: etodd on January 15, 2020, 08:59:39 pm
When I walk into a SAREX Mission Base, and 90% are wearing polo, I can't tell who is what rank, whether they are NCO, or whatever.  All I see are people sitting at tables doing various jobs. They may have all types of different ranks, but when it comes down to working at Mission Base or flying in an aircraft, or whatever ... I haven't seen rank at play ... ever.  Everyone has a "job" and they get it done. I've only been in CAP for 4 years, but so far have never seen a senior member salute another one. I guess I'm missing something, but I just don't see how rank is playing much of a part of a typical mission. You could have a Lt. Col. Mission Pilot, being told what to do by a 2nd Lt in Flight Ops.   At a mission, its the job.   (As viewed by a civilian volunteer anyway)
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Ned on January 15, 2020, 09:38:26 pm
Quote from: JayT on January 15, 2020, 08:49:43 pm
Well, in most organizations, qualification and rank are tied together. A firefighter lieutenant WILL be in charge of a firefighter in almost every situation. CAP is unique in that regard.



Most of the time in CAP grade and qualifications are indeed tied together, if for no other reason than one needs increasing levels of PD ("qualifications") for increasing grade.  Of course, the fact that I have a master rating in CP, and have completed Level 5 may not be all that helpful if I am assigned to a senior squadron and asked to take on non-CP responsibilities.  I would almost certainly be working for someone with a lower grade.  So there is that.

But even if we are only talking about Majors working for 1st Lt squadron commanders, the situation may be unusual, but hardly unique to CAP.

When I served as Army MP battalion headquarters detachment commander as a captain, I had at least 4 officers senior to me in my unit.  (The battalion commander., XO, S3, and a more senior captain assigned as the S4), yet I was the unit commander with Article 15 authority, property book responsibility, etc., etc..  And of course it is not unusual to have an aircraft commander junior in rank to the guy in the right seat.

Or so I'm told.
Title: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Mitchell 1969 on January 15, 2020, 10:19:19 pm
Quote from: Phil Hirons, Jr. on January 15, 2020, 05:23:48 pm


:o :o Right, because never in the history of CAP has a Lt Col had a duty assignment under a Lt.


I was a C/LtCol assigned to Wing HQ in the 70's. More than once, I was the project officer for something where I had a couple of captains or lieutenants (of the Senior variety) working for me. It was simply the nature of the beast. The CAP way is to pitch in and get it done, with experience being more crucial than rank.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Eclipse on January 15, 2020, 11:00:47 pm
Ignore...
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: PHall on January 15, 2020, 11:11:24 pm
Quote from: Holding Pattern on January 15, 2020, 05:41:39 pm
Quote from: Phil Hirons, Jr. on January 15, 2020, 05:23:48 pm
Quote from: PHall on January 14, 2020, 08:54:48 pm
Sorry, but I did try to do the NCO route about 10 years ago. Went back to officer rank after about three years because the stripes more of an obstacle then a help.
Things like being told I could not be a Primary Training Officer at Encampment because a MSgt can't be over a 2d Lt. Never mind this was my 20th encampment...
At least in the cadet program, it just didn't seem to work.


:o :o Right, because never in the history of CAP has a Lt Col had a duty assignment under a Lt.


You would think that with ICS caring about quals over rank we'd be past silliness like that throughout the rest of the org, but there are still some people that get overly hung up on it for no good reason.


Encampment is not Emergency Services and does not use the ICS system. It's an artificial Leadership Laboratory environment.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: PHall on January 15, 2020, 11:16:21 pm
Quote from: etodd on January 15, 2020, 08:59:39 pm
When I walk into a SAREX Mission Base, and 90% are wearing polo, I can't tell who is what rank, whether they are NCO, or whatever.  All I see are people sitting at tables doing various jobs. They may have all types of different ranks, but when it comes down to working at Mission Base or flying in an aircraft, or whatever ... I haven't seen rank at play ... ever.  Everyone has a "job" and they get it done. I've only been in CAP for 4 years, but so far have never seen a senior member salute another one. I guess I'm missing something, but I just don't see how rank is playing much of a part of a typical mission. You could have a Lt. Col. Mission Pilot, being told what to do by a 2nd Lt in Flight Ops.   At a mission, its the job.   (As viewed by a civilian volunteer anyway)



And this would be real nice if it applied to a Cadet Encampment. The situation I described was at a Encampment. Totally different environment then what you would find at an Emergency Services activity.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: NovemberWhiskey on January 15, 2020, 11:25:58 pm
Quote from: PHall on January 15, 2020, 11:11:24 pm
Encampment is not Emergency Services and does not use the ICS system. It's an artificial Leadership Laboratory environment.


It's still a CAP activity, and we're an organization where positional authority is (generally speaking) unrelated to grade within senior membership; and even (to a lesser extent) in the cadet program.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: etodd on January 15, 2020, 11:32:38 pm
Quote from: NovemberWhiskey on January 15, 2020, 11:25:58 pm

... we're an organization where positional authority is (generally speaking) unrelated to grade within senior membership ....



Especially when you are short handed and have to ask members to wear multiple hats. LOL
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: SARDOC on January 21, 2020, 05:45:19 pm
Quote from: JayT on January 15, 2020, 08:49:43 pmWell, in most organizations, qualification and rank are tied together. A firefighter lieutenant WILL be in charge of a firefighter in almost every situation. CAP is unique in that regard.


I think the key here is "almost" every situation.  Being a retired career firefighter/Paramedic (not an Officer) It really is about position and qualifications.  I've worked for Fire Captains and Lieutenants...when we responded to EMS calls (Almost 80%) of what we did.  I was in charge of all patient care response and activities.  They worked for me and I'd delegate tasks to them as needed. 

When I was the Acting EMS Supervisor, all on duty Fire Personnel including Battalion Chiefs and such all worked as my subordinates on all calls involving patient care.

Then when the call was over the dynamics shifted....and then I'd ask if I could take the next shift off.  Because those are the roles.  I think the modern fire service is probably the most adept to understanding positional/situational leadership and responsibilities...just because they've been doing it for so long.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: rltw2017 on January 21, 2020, 09:48:32 pm
Quote from: SARDOC on January 21, 2020, 05:45:19 pm
Quote from: JayT on January 15, 2020, 08:49:43 pmWell, in most organizations, qualification and rank are tied together. A firefighter lieutenant WILL be in charge of a firefighter in almost every situation. CAP is unique in that regard.


I think the key here is "almost" every situation.  Being a retired career firefighter/Paramedic (not an Officer) It really is about position and qualifications.  I've worked for Fire Captains and Lieutenants...when we responded to EMS calls (Almost 80%) of what we did.  I was in charge of all patient care response and activities.  They worked for me and I'd delegate tasks to them as needed. 

When I was the Acting EMS Supervisor, all on duty Fire Personnel including Battalion Chiefs and such all worked as my subordinates on all calls involving patient care.

Then when the call was over the dynamics shifted....and then I'd ask if I could take the next shift off.  Because those are the roles.  I think the modern fire service is probably the most adept to understanding positional/situational leadership and responsibilities...just because they've been doing it for so long.


I mean this concept isn't foreign in a military context either. I was my company's master breacher, so I was the one who had to sign off on requests for demo for both training and operational needs. I was the one who certified guys to breach, construct charges, etc. It didn't matter if you were a cherry or the first sergeant, if I didn't think you could safely be a part of a breach then you weren't going to be able to do it. Of course outside of breaching stuff, the 1SG and CO were still the boss, but for breaching stuff the buck stopped with me and no one else.
Title: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: catrulz on January 27, 2020, 03:12:07 pm
As commented in the past, CAP seniors but mainly Cadets, unfortunately never learn the value of the NCO corps.  The lack of values toward NCOs is embedded in CAP's culture.  Although, I will say I have seen a lot of improvement since 1999.

I don't know how many units I have visited, and activities attended, where Senior Cadet NCOs are standing in ranks and Cadet officer do everything!  I can't help but  believe if there was a flourishing Sr Mbr NCO program, cadets might mimmick what the see.  In order for this to occur, there needs to be a shift in that culture, and what I see here, were not close to achieving that yet. 
Title: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Spam on January 27, 2020, 03:33:55 pm
Catrulz, that's a good observation.


I had a C/Captain, back around 1994 or so, who persisted in drilling the flights at every chance, to the frustration and neglect of her C/SNCOs. Despite repeated counseling, I finally called her into a BOR and showed her C/MSGT stripes and asked her when she wanted her demotion to take effect, because she was repeatedly demonstrating her lack of motivation to transition to be a junior officer, let alone advance to field grade.


Once she figured out that I was serious about the demotion, she backed off and started learning indirect leadership. I told her to start identifying the hills for her troops to attack, and letting her NCOs lead the troops in the assaults.


Again, good observation. I'm not sure that a SM NCO Corps is the answer, but I've seen the problem over the same span, and it is somewhat improved (I credit the institution of TLCs and better cadet training pubs, actually).

V/r
Spam


Modification: I observed a few years ago, that every C/Officer in CAP is a Mustang (up from the ranks). If we incorporated a discrete emphasis on shedding the NCO role and assuming indirect Officership as part of the Mitchell transition, I think it would bear even more fruit.



Title: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Fubar on January 27, 2020, 06:24:37 pm
Quote from: Spam on January 27, 2020, 03:33:55 pmModification: I observed a few years ago, that every C/Officer in CAP is a Mustang (up from the ranks). If we incorporated a discrete emphasis on shedding the NCO role and assuming indirect Officership as part of the Mitchell transition, I think it would bear even more fruit.


This is way more important than having senior member NCOs in a unit. How can cadets learn any observable relationship dynamics from senior member NCOs and Officers when there is no measurable difference between how NCOs and Officers perform their volunteer duties?

Having cadets intentionally remain C/CMSgts because they don't want to make that jump to officer is also an issue, especially if they have a diamond on their insignia.
Title: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: catrulz on January 27, 2020, 07:24:05 pm
Cadet enlisted do not like to salute cadet officers, and do not like to use the 'sir' 'ma'am' honorific.  Cadets also do not like taking orders from other cadets, regardless of grades/positions orders are passed between.  Many cadet officers do not respect their NCOs or allow them any authority.  When I was a DCC I always impressed that a lawful order from any cadet leader (position) should be treated as if it came from me, unless the order posed a moral or safety dilemma.  But I balanced this by making cadets use the Chain of Command both up and down.  Cadet NCOs were responsible for direct leadership, cadet offices handled organizational leadership.  I would often get the officers to think about their orders to get them to self determine if they sis the NCOs job.

Unfortunately, there is not a Sr Mbr model to follow.  I beg to differ, in the opinion that if cadets witnessed a Sr Mbr NCO ALWAYS saluting the officers in the unit, and always saying sir or ma'am, that that would not have a positive impression on the cadets.  If a cadet officer could stand to take advice on matters from a Sr Mbr NCO this would also change, possible only slightly, the value of NCOs.

I have know people that wouldn't join CAP simply because they weren't going to get some rank.  Yeah, Sr. Mbrs regardless of grade need to watch their conduct around cadets.  Believe it or not many of the things they do are learned by example, good or bad!

Edited for clarity.
Title: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: jeders on January 27, 2020, 08:52:14 pm
Quote from: catrulz on January 27, 2020, 07:24:05 pm
Cadet enlisted do not like to salute cadet officers, and do not like to use the 'sir' 'ma'am' honorific.  Cadets also do not like taking orders from other cadets, regardless of grades/positions orders are passed between.  Many cadet officers do not respect their NCOs or allow them any authority. 


Maybe in your corner of the world, but I've never seen that as a widespread issue. Usually, when it is an issue, it's because of poor mentorship from above.
Title: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: SarDragon on January 27, 2020, 10:35:10 pm
All through my first thirty years in CAP, I was associated with cadet and composite squadrons, in three wings and two countries. The proprieties were always observed - particularly salutes and Sir/Ma'am. First names were actively discouraged.

If this is not happening in your unit, there's a leadership problem.
Title: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Holding Pattern on January 27, 2020, 11:00:14 pm
Quote from: SarDragon on January 27, 2020, 10:35:10 pm
All through my first thirty years in CAP, I was associated with cadet and composite squadrons, in three wings and two countries. The proprieties were always observed - particularly salutes and Sir/Ma'am. First names were actively discouraged.

If this is not happening in your unit, there's a leadership problem.


It's all fun and games until you have 4 cadets with the same last name and grade.
Title: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: SarDragon on January 28, 2020, 03:37:47 am
Had twins in my unit in Japan. We added first initials when referring to them.
Title: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Fester on January 28, 2020, 06:51:07 am
Quote from: catrulz on January 27, 2020, 07:24:05 pm
Cadet enlisted do not like to salute cadet officers, and do not like to use the 'sir' 'ma'am' honorific.  Cadets also do not like taking orders from other cadets, regardless of grades/positions orders are passed between.  Many cadet officers do not respect their NCOs or allow them any authority.  When I was a DCC I always impressed that a lawful order from any cadet leader (position) should be treated as if it came from me, unless the order posed a moral or safety dilemma.  But I balanced this by making cadets use the Chain of Command both up and down.  Cadet NCOs were responsible for direct leadership, cadet offices handled organizational leadership.  I would often get the officers to think about their orders to get them to self determine if they sis the NCOs job.

Unfortunately, there is not a Sr Mbr model to follow.  I beg to differ, in the opinion that if cadets witnessed a Sr Mbr NCO ALWAYS saluting the officers in the unit, and always saying sir or ma'am, that that would not have a positive impression on the cadets.  If a cadet officer could stand to take advice on matters from a Sr Mbr NCO this would also change, possible only slightly, the value of NCOs.

I have know people that wouldn't join CAP simply because they weren't going to get some rank.  Yeah, Sr. Mbrs regardless of grade need to watch their conduct around cadets.  Believe it or not many of the things they do are learned by example, good or bad!

Edited for clarity.


I think this is a symptom of poor leadership at your unit.  I've been in 4 units in 3 wings.  I have never seen this tolerated.
Title: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: catrulz on January 28, 2020, 01:54:49 pm
Okay, first of all this was not a problem in my unit.

But these situations do occur in every unit.  The key nipping these situations in bud, before they ferment and cause larger problems.  Once again, if you read my last post completely and thoroughly and not just the first couple of sentences, just as attitudes are contagious, so is example.

Having NCOs in units would re-inforce the customs and courtesies that we require them to practice.
Title: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on January 28, 2020, 03:48:16 pm
Quote from: catrulz on January 28, 2020, 01:54:49 pm
Okay, first of all this was not a problem in my unit.

But these situations do occur in every unit.  The key nipping these situations in bud, before they ferment and cause larger problems.  Once again, if you read my last post completely and thoroughly and not just the first couple of sentences, just as attitudes are contagious, so is example.

Having NCOs in units would re-inforce the customs and courtesies that we require them to practice.



Never had any actively engaged SM NCOs, and yet the cadets knew their Customs and Courtesies.  ???
Title: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: abdsp51 on January 28, 2020, 04:37:38 pm
Catzrulz, 

I don't know your background, but I can tell you that in every unit or function I have attended since I rejoined CAP what you described has never been an issue. 

CAP has flourished for years without NCOs and will continue to do so with the limited number of them.

So I'll ask you the same thing that's been posed and has hardly ever been answered.

What can CAP NCOs do that is not already being done?

What is the ultimate goal of having CAP NCOs?

Title: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: PHall on January 28, 2020, 05:40:56 pm
Catzrulz, the CAP NCO "Program" is a solution looking for a problem to solve.
Title: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Jester on January 28, 2020, 07:29:24 pm
Every time this pops up, I've learned to roll my eyes at the amount of people who are so overly concerned with how I and folks like me contribute to this organization, then move on to continue contributing to the organization.

Title: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Holding Pattern on January 28, 2020, 09:59:38 pm
Quote from: Jester on January 28, 2020, 07:29:24 pm
Every time this pops up, I've learned to roll my eyes at the amount of people who are so overly concerned with how I and folks like me contribute to this organization, then move on to continue contributing to the organization.


Here is a question: When can non-prior service folks enter the NCO program? There is a lot of interest on my part among other reasons because I want access to the PME on the enlisted side.
Title: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: MSG Mac on January 29, 2020, 01:01:30 am
The NCO program started out with great expectations. Problem is that there was NO follow up. We were told to expect an NCO program by Christmas, we never told which year. We were told at the beginning that NCO's would get a one grade bump-didn't happen.

A good start would have been to contact all known former NCO's to inform them about the CAP NCO program-not done.

A training plan and manning table. Still waiting for the plan. Manning tables just released. Still waiting for the NCO program.

Costs: New enlisted service coat. $180, Flight Cap $10, Grade insignia $15-18 times the number of shirts, jackets, etc they need to be sewn on (not to mention the cost of sewing them on).

National HQ has to get serious about the NCO program or admit that it was a dream of MG Carr and was left to die on a natural death by attrition.




Title: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Eclipse on January 29, 2020, 02:10:12 am
This is the "problem", and why there's never going to be an NCO Corps or program
that actually functions properly within CAP...

"Noncommissioned officers/petty officers are the leadership cadre that ensures the mission of the unit or organization can and will be accomplished.
They do so by sustaining and motivating the enlisted force.
By teaching, coaching, and mentoring the force, and by instilling a sense
of unity, purpose, good order, and discipline--and demanding compliance with standards, tradition, culture, customs, and courtesies--they
are looked upon as the organization's pillars of strength and loyalty.

They are professional servant-leaders who are undeterred by the chaos, complexity, uncertainty, fog, and friction that can infiltrate
the formations. They have presence. When young military members look up from a difficult task for purpose, strength, and guidance,
it is the NCO/PO they see first. NCOs/POs continually strive to attain ever higher levels of personal, professional, and technical
competence in order to be more effective, and they inspire confidence and esprit de corps both in those appointed over them and in
those who look to them for leadership. NCOs/POs influence and develop their subordinates through personal example and engaged supervision.
NCOs/POs relish taking on challenging tasks--that is what they are developed for and trained to do, and it is one of the many reasons they are
acknowledged and respected throughout the world."



"The Noncommissioned Officer and Petty Officer
Backbone of the Armed Forces"

2013
National Defense University Press
Washington, D.C.

https://www.jcs.mil/Portals/36/Documents/Publications/ncobackbone.pdf

Not only is this the best, most easily articulated explanation of what an NCO "is", it also defines the problem
for CAP quite nicely.

There is no "enlisted force" in CAP. Everyone reading this knows that, but it's repeated anyway.

The cadets are not the "enlisted force", despite rhetoric to that effect by those who try to force that model.

NCOs are intended to be the watchmen for the care and feeding of the enlisted force, the voice of that force
to the strategic leadership, and when they "advise and counsel" it's in regards to how command decisions
will affect that force, and / or whether that force is capable of executing the command intent.

CAP has no such force for them to champion, motivate, and train, and the idea that you would allow
members to somehow indoc as NCOs, without ever being "enlisted", causes the same issues as the situation
today, which allows them to indoc as Officers with no military (or even staff-related) training.

And putting NCOs out in the field, with no enlisted force, is like making them Assistant to the Regional Manager at
Dunder Mifflin.  It sounds goods if you say it fast enough, and don't ask too many follow up questions.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: catrulz on January 29, 2020, 01:20:07 pm
I've been following this argument for years here on CAP Talk.  As you can see I don't have a high post total.

As lordmonar used to stress, you don't need a problem, to institute improvements.  By the way what happened to lordmonar?

"By teaching, coaching, and mentoring the force, and by instilling a sense of unity, purpose, good order, and discipline--and demanding compliance with standards, tradition, culture, customs, and courtesies--they
are looked upon as the organization's pillars of strength and loyalty."

There is a lot of value added in this sentence for both the cadet and senior member program.  I remember the discussions in bringing back the warrant officer grades as specialists.  The NCO Corps could be those specialists and demanding compliance with standards, tradition, culture, customs, and courtesies--they
are looked upon as the organization's pillars of strength and loyalty through training and example.

When I was a cadet (CA Composite Squadron 50 1978-79 Modesto) we had Sr. Mbr NCOs at Group 16 (I think this group number changed at some point).  They mainly worked on the planes and comm gear if memory serves correctly (it is the first thing that goes with age).

As an AFJROTC cadet, we had a single Officer Instructor, and a single Sr. NCO Instructor. Their contribution was equal, and neither was considered redundant. There was no problem needing to be solved, they simply enhanced each other, both had valuable lessons and examples to provide.

Saluting both between Sr. Members/Sr. Members, cadets/Sr. Members, cadets/cadets was viewed much differently in AFJROTC, and when I was in the active military.  Interestingly, attitudes on C&C were similar to CAP when I was in the ARNG (and my ARNG unit didn't have this problem either, but it was an issue in our parent unit).

CAP is not going to get worse for a lack of an NCO program, it may not get remarkably better with one either.  It will be different though, and it will cause cultural shifts.  Small things both negative and positive can have large impacts on the way thing are perceived and accomplished.

We're never going to get consensus on this issue.  And that's okay. 
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Eclipse on January 29, 2020, 05:40:50 pm
"Improvement" - "a thing that makes something better or is better than something else."

The attempt to shoe-horn an NCO corps into CAP was / is not an "improvement",
it's a recruiting and retention play. In fact in some of the limited collateral
published at the time,  it's literally indicated as such, as if the ability to wear
stripes vs brass was going to generate such an influx of new members with military
service backgrounds that units would not be able to handle the tidal wave.

Saying the "NCOs could be the specialists" indicates a misunderstanding of both their
role and the role of Warrants, and is another "way to try and make this thing we did work".

How is "more saluting" going to fix CAP when a large number of the membership thinks salutes
are based on headgear and NHQ is wishy-washy on the issue at best?

I haven't ever personally seen a disdain for courtesies anywhere I've been posted. When there is,
it's always been a command issue, either by omission or commission.

There's never going to be a consensus on anything in CAP, heck people can't even agree
how the initialism is spoken, but NHQ needs to provide consistency and common sense
in this regard because all they have now is string of "we're going to keep trying to make this
stick no matter how hard reality pushes back..."

And for what it's worth, there already are thousands of current and prior-
service NCOs who are serving, and have served in CAP for decades.
Title: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Ned on January 29, 2020, 06:20:56 pm
This dead horse seems almost impossible to actually kill.  Indeed, Flicker could serve as an instructor for our CAP resiliency training.

We have, of course, discussed the role of the CAP NCO - past and future --  at great length here on CAPTalk.

Many times. 

And that's fine, of course.  It just mirrors the lack of consensus on the part of the board members. Everyone, both new posters and "the usual suspects," post sincerely and, on occasion, passionately on the topic.  But even after using the new search function here on the board, I can't find a single post on the topic that comes close to "hmmm, maybe you are right on this.  I've changed my position."


So we can and apparently must continue the conversation, each of us repeating our positions in the forlorn hope that maybe someday, someone will be pursuaded one way or another.  And we will do this until the sun dims and the Earth freezes.

So, for the record allow me to repeat myself as well. 

Curry and Spaatz did not get it wrong when they created CAP with both officer and NCO grades over 75 years ago.  NCOs lead differently than officers, and have done so since the first Roman Centurion berated a new legionary over two millenia ago.  Every single military (and quasi military) organization since Rome has had both officers and NCOs.  Every. single. one.  Including both Star Fleet and the Salvation Army.  There is a reason for that.  And it is a good one.


Just in the Cadet Program tent, I could put 1200 CAP NCOs to work tomorrow by assigning one or two to each cadet and composite unit to serve as Leadership Officers.  Essentially by definition, NCOs have years of experience mentoring and developing junior leaders in a military environment.  And since every single cadet must develop their followership and  leadership skills initially as an airman and cadet NCO, senior member NCOs could and would provide outstanding role models and needed support.

(Of course, we have a terrific CP without significant numbers of CAP NCOs, so I can't claim that CAP NCOs are absolutely crucial.) 

But our CP would be measurably better if we had one or two experienced NCOs at each cadet and composite unit.

If we had a mature CAP senior member enlisted/NCO structure in CP, at the squadron I would expect to see SSgts and TSgts working more or less directly with the troops; directly monitoring training and mentoring the cadet instructors for things like D & C, and acting as instructors.  I would normally expect senior NCOs (MSgt +) to do things like training schedules, coordinate and rehearse instructors, mentor both the junior NCOs and the cadet staff, conduct CP-related professional development for the senior member side, and also serve in additional duties for the unit as a whole (things like unit First Sergeant, Personnel and Admin NCO, etc.).

At the group, wing, and region level I would expect senior NCOs to work as SMEs in CP.  I would probably see them working on CI, SAV, and SUI teams, maintaining associated records and providing administrative support, directly coordinating with their counterparts at lower and higher levels, planning CP activities at their level, producing reports and maintaining electronic data, and mentoring and training NCOs at lower echelons.

At things like encampments, NCOs would provide valuable support on the tactical staff, liaising with host facilities, as well as serving as  logisticians and administrators. 

And at all levels, NCOs - like all SMs - would be eligible for the dreaded "similar and related duties as required." 

(Remember, this is a vision for a mature and self-generating enlisted structure, NOT what we have today.  Today, our NCOs come to us pre-trained in leadership and organizational skills by Uncle Sam and all we have to add are the CAP-specific skills.  This may well change as we tweak the program to allow non-prior service CAP NCOs).





Title: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Holding Pattern on January 29, 2020, 08:15:12 pm
How many years should us non-prior service folks plan on waiting before this program opens up to us?
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: catrulz on January 29, 2020, 08:57:53 pm
Ned, well said sir!
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: kcebnaes on January 29, 2020, 09:15:37 pm
Quote from: Holding Pattern on January 29, 2020, 08:15:12 pmHow many years should us non-prior service folks plan on waiting before this program opens up to us?

100%. I'd much rather transfer over to the NCO side, now that my term as a commander is coming to a close.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Fester on January 30, 2020, 06:54:24 am
I 100% agree with Ned.  In fact, when can I expect this NCO or two you are sending to every cadet and composite squadron?  I can't wait!
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Fester on January 30, 2020, 06:55:32 am
Quote from: Holding Pattern on January 29, 2020, 08:15:12 pmHow many years should us non-prior service folks plan on waiting before this program opens up to us?

Why should it?  The benefits brought to the organization by NCO's is there military experience as NCOs.  If you don't have that prior service, I see no reason why you need to be eligible for NCO grades.
Title: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Mitchell 1969 on January 30, 2020, 07:34:54 am
Quote from: catrulz on January 27, 2020, 03:12:07 pmAs commented in the past, CAP seniors but mainly Cadets, unfortunately never learn the value of the NCO corps.

Don't put this all on the people who haven't learned it. Save some blame for those who never taught it. But I place more blame on those who have never really EXPLAINED it.

Oh, sure, I have heard the usual "NCOs are wonderful because NCOs are wonderful" attempts at explanation. But, in the long run, there is no standard of service that every or any CAP NCO can provide that can't be provided by non-NCO volunteers. Not every NCO is a drill expert, or a leadership instructor or a wise and experienced advisor or a logistics whizz.

Like the rest of the volunteers, they come from wide backgrounds and have a variety of skill areas. In my opinion, the NCO corps wasn't created for CAP, per se, it was created by an NCO for the NCOs.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Holding Pattern on January 30, 2020, 11:16:16 am
Quote from: Fester on January 30, 2020, 06:55:32 am
Quote from: Holding Pattern on January 29, 2020, 08:15:12 pmHow many years should us non-prior service folks plan on waiting before this program opens up to us?

Why should it?  The benefits brought to the organization by NCO's is there military experience as NCOs.  If you don't have that prior service, I see no reason why you need to be eligible for NCO grades.

If that is the only benefit... but I don't see it as the only one. If NCOs can't train future NCOs from the civilian population then I don't see how it is a sustainable or useful program.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: catrulz on January 30, 2020, 01:05:40 pm
Quote from: Mitchell 1969 on January 30, 2020, 07:34:54 am
Quote from: catrulz on January 27, 2020, 03:12:07 pmAs commented in the past, CAP seniors but mainly Cadets, unfortunately never learn the value of the NCO corps.

Don't put this all on the people who haven't learned it. Save some blame for those who never taught it. But I place more blame on those who have never really EXPLAINED it.

I agree and this speaks to my point.  Cadets learn as much from example and mentorship as they do from instruction or their CAP Leadership Lab. Soldiers, Sailors, Airmen and Marines do as well.  We look at our NCOs, that supply the DIRECT leadership, that develops us into NCOs and believe it or not competent officers.

A brand new 2LT or Ensign, has much more classroom experience that a Sergeant, but way less practical experience.  Furthermore an officer that was never an NCO (Mustang) cannot truly appreciate the the duties and responsibilities of an NCO.  A new Platoon Leader exercises direct leadership over a span of control of 4 (Platoon Sergeant, 3 x squad leaders).  That platoon leader simultaneously exercises organizational leadership over 30 (the entire platoon).  As an officer moves up, the exercise more organizational and less direct leadership, and if they get high enough move on to strategic leadership. 

NCO's progress similarly but at a slower pace, and generally have more direct leadership involvement.

By the way, in good units like I have explained, NCOship versus Officership is trained.  And you can really see the differences in cadet from opposite units.  NCOs that acted as NCOs also make much better cadet officers.  An SDA or cadet staff position is not as foreign a concept, if you thing in organization leadership terms.

Missouri Wing used to teach a Cadet NCO course.  I don't know if it still does, since I'm no longer active in CP.  This course was championed by officers who were former NCOs.  The positive affects of the course could be seen when the cadets returned to their units.  Higher confidence, new skills, able to speak to a group formally, amazing.  This should be a Nationally encouraged annual cadet program activity that has a national syllabus. 
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: catrulz on January 30, 2020, 01:23:07 pm
I'm going to take this a step further.  So I'm ready to get flamed by the masses.

I would suggest changing Sr. Mbr progression from:

Sr. Member - SRA after completing Level 1, CPP (Former officers and NCOs appoined under current guidelines).

The Senior Member would then have to choose Officer or Enlisted Track

Officer:

2d Lt  after 1 year as a SRA, Technician Specialty Track Rating, Sr Mbr Officer School (Resident Weekend Course), demonstrates the willingness to an active contributor in squadron activities.

*Since the time in grade requirement is 1.5 years from 2LT to 1LT, make both SLS and CLC a requirement for 1LT, but the SLS course may be completed at anytime after Level is completed.

NCO:

SSGT after 1 year as a SRA, Technician Specialty Track Rating, Sr Mbr NCO School (Resident 2 Weekend Course), demonstrates the willingness to an active contributor in squadron activities.

One of our current problems is we promote people for just showing up.  We don't want to SM Smitty, because he has 2 cadets in the unit, so after 6 months, completing Level I that they many times do not even digest properly, make them an officer.  And then we wonder why all they do is sit in a corner and complain about how their kids are treated unfairly.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: vorteks on January 30, 2020, 02:17:11 pm
Quote from: Fester on January 30, 2020, 06:55:32 am
Quote from: Holding Pattern on January 29, 2020, 08:15:12 pmHow many years should us non-prior service folks plan on waiting before this program opens up to us?

Why should it?  The benefits brought to the organization by NCO's is there military experience as NCOs.  If you don't have that prior service, I see no reason why you need to be eligible for NCO grades.

Prior service NCOs can and already do serve in CAP as officers - I guess they can't use their military NCO experience here unless they're wearing stripes??
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Eclipse on January 30, 2020, 03:41:52 pm
Quote from: catrulz on January 30, 2020, 01:23:07 pmOne of our current problems is we promote people for just showing up.  We don't want to SM Smitty, because he has 2 cadets in the unit, so after 6 months, completing Level I that they many times do not even digest properly, make them an officer.  And then we wonder why all they do is sit in a corner and complain about how their kids are treated unfairly.

More likely Smitty is the only one willing to be the Unit CC after he's been in CAP for
17.8 minutes.

As discussed 1MM times, >removing< grade instead of making more grades, is the answer.
That actually fixes any number of problems without causing more.
Title: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: TheSkyHornet on January 30, 2020, 04:29:18 pm
I'm not sure I follow the logic entirely that NCOs need to come from the military population.

They weren't NCOs at one point. They were civilians who enlisted who progressed to become NCOs.

Military officers all have the commonality that they have at least a Bachelor's degree, but beyond that, they come from many different backgrounds of experience. Some were prior enlisted who went the ROTC or OCS route. Some where prior enlisted who went on to become NCOs and then went the ROTC or OCS route. Some were never prior service and went through a commissioning pipeline. And plenty of enlisted service members have degrees and elected not to go the officer route. Lest we forget the Warrant Officers.

I think military personnel have an opportunity to bring a vantage point and perspective into CAP, particularly in regard to the Cadet Program curriculum. But for operational roles, it might not be much different than hiring a prior service candidate for a civilian job. And you'll always have a win-some-lose-some experience----some NCOs are great; not all.

If we have the expectation that we can take a non-prior service person to make them into an officer, then why can't we take a non-prior service person to make them into an NCO?

To Eclipse's point, does that mean we need to open up more ranks or reduce them for simplicity?
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: vorteks on January 30, 2020, 04:47:22 pm
Quote from: TheSkyHornet on January 30, 2020, 04:29:18 pmIf we have the expectation that we can take a non-prior service person to make them into an officer, then why can't we take a non-prior service person to make them into an NCO?

^ This too. I'm starting to think having military pay grades in CAP is more trouble than it's worth - CAP is not a military organisation nor does it function like one, starting with the fact grade/rank carries no authority at all.
Title: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: PHall on January 30, 2020, 06:06:19 pm
You know, all military NCO's are not the same. The training and experience of an Army NCO is very different from an Air Force NCO. The difference is the jobs they do.
Army NCOs usually lead/supervise more troops because they're leading an Infantry Squad/Platoon/Company.
Units that have a lot of troops to lead.
Air Force NCOs are technicians who until they become a Senior NCO, rarely Supervise more then a half dozen Airmen and are usually working in an shop or an office. And the last time they had to drill was in Tech School.
NCOs are not a magic touch that will fix everything.
Title: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: shuman14 on January 31, 2020, 01:48:03 am
Perhaps as someone recommended long ago that the answer to all the "Rank" nonsense is to follow the USCG Auxiliary model and only have appointed Rank for personnel in actual Leadership or Staff positions.

Someone also suggested that Warrant Officer Insignia be used to represent the CAP Senior Development Level completed as the USAF no longer has any active Warrant Officers, this would eliminate the CAP Officer/USAF Officer confusion.

So continue the limited used Flight Officer Ranks, discontinue NCO Grades, discontinue Former Officer appointments and a Senior Member's Level 1 through Level 5 would represented by Warrant Officer One through Chief Warrant Officer Five Insignia.

(https://i1.wp.com/www.militaer-wissen.de/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Warrant-Officers-des-US-Marine-Corps.jpg)

I would also suggest using the USMC Insignia (above), as it would be completely distinctive from any USAF Insignia and would harken back to the Maroon Epaulets on the old Air Corps "Pinks and Greens" uniform and the Maroon Shoulder Slides (aka Berry Boards) replaced by the current Grey slides.

Any other Rank, Second Lieutenant through Major General, would be an appointed Rank and would only be worn when a Member held a Leadership or Staff position at Squadron, Group, Wing or National level.

Once your time in the position is done, you take off your appointed Rank Insignia and revert back to your Development Level Warrant Officer Grade.
Title: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: arajca on January 31, 2020, 02:37:12 am
Something like this, perhaps?FO chart.pdf
Title: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Eclipse on January 31, 2020, 02:40:26 am
Adding warrants just breaks things more.

The stated goal was to recruit military NCOs who would then retain their grade
as CAP members, and be able to promote internally irregardless of whether they
promote in the military, not redo the whole system.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: shuman14 on January 31, 2020, 03:05:04 am
Quote from: arajca on January 31, 2020, 02:37:12 amSomething like this, perhaps?FO chart.pdf

Yes, but with all the Staff (S-1/G-1 Adjutant, S-2/G-2 Intelligence/Weather Officer, S-3/G-3 Operations Officer, etc.) and Special Staff (Group Chaplain, Region Judge Advocate, Wing Medical Officer/Surgeon, etc.) positions having appointed Rank too.

As to the actual Rank Titles, what would you do with the existing 18-21 year old Flight Officer Grades? Discontinue them? Otherwise you would have some confusion there.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: shuman14 on January 31, 2020, 03:06:37 am
Quote from: Eclipse on January 31, 2020, 02:40:26 amAdding warrants just breaks things more.

The stated goal was to recruit military NCOs who would then retain their grade
as CAP members, and be able to promote internally irregardless of whether they
promote in the military, not redo the whole system.

Maybe the redo IS what is needed. Just saying.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: arajca on January 31, 2020, 03:16:28 am
Quote from: shuman14 on January 31, 2020, 03:05:04 am
Quote from: arajca on January 31, 2020, 02:37:12 amSomething like this, perhaps?FO chart.pdf

Yes, but with all the Staff (S-1/G-1 Adjutant, S-2/G-2 Intelligence/Weather Officer, S-3/G-3 Operations Officer, etc.) and Special Staff (Group Chaplain, Region Judge Advocate, Wing Medical Officer/Surgeon, etc.) positions having appointed Rank too.

They are staff officers are they not. Staff Officers are addressed in the chart. S-#/G-# are not used in CAP.

QuoteAs to the actual Rank Titles, what would you do with the existing 18-21 year old Flight Officer Grades? Discontinue them? Otherwise you would have some confusion there.
Let them progress in the new system.
Title: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: PHall on January 31, 2020, 05:42:44 am
Why are you guys using Marine Corps Warrant Officer insignia?
Why not use Navy Warrant Officer insignia. It's the same as the Air Force used to use.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Fester on January 31, 2020, 06:59:42 am
Quote from: catrulz on January 30, 2020, 01:23:07 pmI'm going to take this a step further.  So I'm ready to get flamed by the masses.

I would suggest changing Sr. Mbr progression from:

Sr. Member - SRA after completing Level 1, CPP (Former officers and NCOs appoined under current guidelines).

The Senior Member would then have to choose Officer or Enlisted Track

Officer:

2d Lt  after 1 year as a SRA, Technician Specialty Track Rating, Sr Mbr Officer School (Resident Weekend Course), demonstrates the willingness to an active contributor in squadron activities.

*Since the time in grade requirement is 1.5 years from 2LT to 1LT, make both SLS and CLC a requirement for 1LT, but the SLS course may be completed at anytime after Level is completed.

NCO:

SSGT after 1 year as a SRA, Technician Specialty Track Rating, Sr Mbr NCO School (Resident 2 Weekend Course), demonstrates the willingness to an active contributor in squadron activities.

One of our current problems is we promote people for just showing up.  We don't want to SM Smitty, because he has 2 cadets in the unit, so after 6 months, completing Level I that they many times do not even digest properly, make them an officer.  And then we wonder why all they do is sit in a corner and complain about how their kids are treated unfairly.

I'm not a fan of ANYTHING that requires an in-resident week-long or even weekend course.  Not all of us are retired or self-employeed with no time constraints.  Is my knowledge and existence not of value if I can't take a weekend off?

I think not.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Fester on January 31, 2020, 07:02:54 am
Quote from: shuman14 on January 31, 2020, 01:48:03 amPerhaps as someone recommended long ago that the answer to all the "Rank" nonsense is to follow the USCG Auxiliary model and only have appointed Rank for personnel in actual Leadership or Staff positions.

Someone also suggested that Warrant Officer Insignia be used to represent the CAP Senior Development Level completed as the USAF no longer has any active Warrant Officers, this would eliminate the CAP Officer/USAF Officer confusion.

So continue the limited used Flight Officer Ranks, discontinue NCO Grades, discontinue Former Officer appointments and a Senior Member's Level 1 through Level 5 would represented by Warrant Officer One through Chief Warrant Officer Five Insignia.

(https://i1.wp.com/www.militaer-wissen.de/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Warrant-Officers-des-US-Marine-Corps.jpg)

I would also suggest using the USMC Insignia (above), as it would be completely distinctive from any USAF Insignia and would harken back to the Maroon Epaulets on the old Air Corps "Pinks and Greens" uniform and the Maroon Shoulder Slides (aka Berry Boards) replaced by the current Grey slides.

Any other Rank, Second Lieutenant through Major General, would be an appointed Rank and would only be worn when a Member held a Leadership or Staff position at Squadron, Group, Wing or National level.

Once your time in the position is done, you take off your appointed Rank Insignia and revert back to your Development Level Warrant Officer Grade.

I fail to see any value this would bring.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: THRAWN on January 31, 2020, 12:00:25 pm
Quote from: shuman14 on January 31, 2020, 01:48:03 amPerhaps as someone recommended long ago that the answer to all the "Rank" nonsense is to follow the USCG Auxiliary model and only have appointed Rank for personnel in actual Leadership or Staff positions.

That was me. And as a former Warrant Officer, nix that whole latter part of your post.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: TheSkyHornet on January 31, 2020, 03:51:05 pm
Quote from: PHall on January 30, 2020, 06:06:19 pmYou know, all military NCO's are not the same. The training and experience of an Army NCO is very different from an Air Force NCO. The difference is the jobs they do.
Army NCOs usually lead/supervise more troops because they're leading an Infantry Squad/Platoon/Company.
Units that have a lot of troops to lead.
Air Force NCOs are technicians who until they become a Senior NCO, rarely Supervise more then a half dozen Airmen and are usually working in an shop or an office. And the last time they had to drill was in Tech School.
NCOs are not a magic touch that will fix everything.

And in most cases, CAP officers are technicians, not command staff or support directors.

That's not to say they're not "leaders," but they're not leaders in the sense of a duty assignment in many instances. You can lead a staff or operational team, but that isn't exactly tied in with a grade per se.

This is where training differs from line operations; and at its very core, the Cadet Program is a training/development course. It's intrinsic purpose is to constantly develop leaders. It's a very dynamic operational training arena that has some technical association but not in its bulk. With the varying degree and style of activities used to support cadet development, some units may go a more technical training route than others, and some go very heavy on the practical leadership application side (e.g., scenario-based training). As a training cadre, the role of those NCOs may differ significantly: Do I want a technician to teach 'this' subject, or a field operator?

If we conduct an aerospace lab, and we're drying drones, maybe I'd rather have that technician--but that can be an officer or an NCO (if comparing it to a military/Air Force sense). If we conduct field training, and are managing squad- and platoon-sized groups of trainees, maybe I want a greater leadership emphasis and less technical expertise. I think both are important depending on the circumstance and the environment of the training being conducted.

Now, does it need to be an NCO? Let's keep in mind that this is a title; and identifier. Officers and NCOs differ based on their level of responsibility, where they fall in the organizational structure, their defined role, and their training background.

In CAP, what we seem to do, is throw them into the same duties and call them the same thing, but use different insignia. Tell me the difference between a prior enlisted Army E-7 who is a CAP Master Sergeant Leadership Officer and a prior enlisted Army E-7 is a CAP Captain Leadership Officer. It's the exact same role, same background before CAP, same progression in CAP, different insignia, and acting like one has more to offer to the unit than the other which is inherently untrue. Now an Army E-7 who becomes a CAP Master Sergeant Leadership Officer is very different from an Army O-3 who becomes a CAP Captain Leadership Officer. Those are totally different past experiences and ways of looking at the "big picture" of training, to include execution.

In a perfect world, as a Commander, I would love to have that E-7 as my Squadron NCO who has that practical experience as a senior military NCO to help me hold the unit together and keep me in line/on-track. I'd like to have a Leadership Officer who has officer-level training experience and a Leadership NCO who has NCO-level training experience. These people can be taught; they can be built never having served in the military. It just takes a lot longer and lot more experience to get there. At the unit level, I don't have that time. I need to important someone in who can have a little room for adjustment but ready to take it on. This is the debacle that we all face from the command route.

But this may not be the case for the technical route (say, Communications or Logistics/Supply).

This is an extremely complex subject that I don't think we have solid answers for. I see the ease of dropping the NCO grades because we can just call everyone officers. That doesn't really address the training and experience aspect--and we'll probably always have that being a volunteer group.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Eclipse on January 31, 2020, 04:02:01 pm
What if...and just spitballing here...people joined CAP, completed internal training
>or< "proficiency-ed out" via (the same) objective tests, and were promoted based >purely<
on their demonstrated objective abilities?

Want to be the FM?  No one cares you say you're a CPA - take this test.

Want to be a small-squad leader?  First point to the small squad you will lead. Cadets?
You won't be leading them, you'll be training them like everyone else.
But you say you were an NCO in the military?  Interesting. Did your job involve motivating
12 year old volunteers 1 night a month? No? It was manning a radar station at Elmendorf
with 3 other people the same age? OK, take this class and pass this test.

This way everyone has the same relative internal experiences in regards to
training and testing, nothing is handed to anyone, and these conversations are moot.

I know, crazy.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: shuman14 on January 31, 2020, 10:44:45 pm
Quote from: PHall on January 31, 2020, 05:42:44 amWhy are you guys using Marine Corps Warrant Officer insignia?
Why not use Navy Warrant Officer insignia. It's the same as the Air Force used to use.

Actually the Navy uses a royal Blue Color and the USAF used a Sky Blue Color.

As I explained further up in the thread, No one will confuse a CAP Warrant Officer for a USAF Officer.

I chose the USMC Red Color to harken back to the maroon epaulets on the original CAP Uniforms when the Army Air Corps "Pinks and Greens" uniform was used and to the maroon shoulder slides (aka Berry Boards). That and they are readily available off the shelf.

To start using USAF Warrant Rank insignia or create our own (perhaps with GREY squares and lines) would require design, production and a new contract with Vanguard to produce them as opposed to the various venders that already produce USMC insignia.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: shuman14 on January 31, 2020, 10:48:42 pm
Quote from: THRAWN on January 31, 2020, 12:00:25 pm
Quote from: shuman14 on January 31, 2020, 01:48:03 amPerhaps as someone recommended long ago that the answer to all the "Rank" nonsense is to follow the USCG Auxiliary model and only have appointed Rank for personnel in actual Leadership or Staff positions.

That was me. And as a former Warrant Officer, nix that whole latter part of your post.


I couldn't remember who it was, thank you for reminding me.

Which part do you not like?
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: PHall on January 31, 2020, 11:22:08 pm
Quote from: shuman14 on January 31, 2020, 10:44:45 pm
Quote from: PHall on January 31, 2020, 05:42:44 amWhy are you guys using Marine Corps Warrant Officer insignia?
Why not use Navy Warrant Officer insignia. It's the same as the Air Force used to use.

Actually the Navy uses a royal Blue Color and the USAF used a Sky Blue Color.

As I explained further up in the thread, No one will confuse a CAP Warrant Officer for a USAF Officer.

Considering that The Air Force has not had a Warrant Officer in over 25 years, I don't think that would be a problem.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: bd5av8r on February 17, 2020, 06:06:53 pm
Simple: Eliminate rank, put people in Polos and grey slacks.

Now everyone is equal and won't have authority and rank to get all wound up over. Let alone uniforms. :D lol

That may even "cure" some of the toxic leadership issues I see talked about from time to time.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Holding Pattern on February 17, 2020, 06:44:12 pm
Quote from: bd5av8r on February 17, 2020, 06:06:53 pmSimple: Eliminate rank, put people in Polos and grey slacks.

Now everyone is equal and won't have authority and rank to get all wound up over. Let alone uniforms. :D lol

That may even "cure" some of the toxic leadership issues I see talked about from time to time.

The simple solution for those that want to do away with rank is to join the Scouts or CERT or both. If you want to further divest CAP away from the USAF, perhaps the solution for those people is to join an org that already is divested.

There are ways of making the NCO and officer program work together and complementary. The current method is IMO poorly executed, but that is no reason to throw out the baby with the bathwater.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: CAP9907 on February 17, 2020, 07:27:53 pm
Quote from: bd5av8r on February 17, 2020, 06:06:53 pmSimple: Eliminate rank, put people in Polos and grey slacks.


I think that many Seniors have adopted this path by default. I do own the minimum SM 'uniform' that's required, but wear it maybe once a year. Polo works for my day to day activities. YMMV of course.

~9907
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Fubar on February 17, 2020, 08:12:23 pm
Quote from: CAP9907 on February 17, 2020, 07:27:53 pmI think that many Seniors have adopted this path by default. I do own the minimum SM 'uniform' that's required, but wear it maybe once a year. Polo works for my day to day activities. YMMV of course.
~9907

All the uniform drama is so silly that I too used to think we should just do away with them, but I've come to the same conclusion you have. The membership has voted through what they wear and the polo shirt has won by a landslide.

It used to be argued that the polo wearing folks aren't doing anything to detract from the missions being completed, just leave them alone. Now, the inverse can be said.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Eclipse on February 17, 2020, 08:18:26 pm
Quote from: Fubar on February 17, 2020, 08:12:23 pmThe membership has voted through what they wear and the polo shirt has won by a landslide.

Maybe in your AOR, but that's not even remotely true nationally.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: etodd on February 17, 2020, 09:27:37 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on February 17, 2020, 08:18:26 pm
Quote from: Fubar on February 17, 2020, 08:12:23 pmThe membership has voted through what they wear and the polo shirt has won by a landslide.

Maybe in your AOR, but that's not even remotely true nationally.

Wing differences for sure.  For seniors its mostly polo in my area.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: jeders on February 18, 2020, 12:53:06 am
Quote from: bd5av8r on February 17, 2020, 06:06:53 pmSimple: Eliminate rank, put people in Polos and grey slacks.

Now everyone is equal and won't have authority and rank to get all wound up over. Let alone uniforms. :D lol

That may even "cure" some of the toxic leadership issues I see talked about from time to time.

Some of the worst and most toxic leaders have been solely polo wearers; so were some of the best. Changing the uniform won't fix bad leaders.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: bd5av8r on February 18, 2020, 04:25:32 am
Quote from: Holding Pattern on February 17, 2020, 06:44:12 pm
Quote from: bd5av8r on February 17, 2020, 06:06:53 pmSimple: Eliminate rank, put people in Polos and grey slacks.

Now everyone is equal and won't have authority and rank to get all wound up over. Let alone uniforms. :D lol

That may even "cure" some of the toxic leadership issues I see talked about from time to time.

The simple solution for those that want to do away with rank is to join the Scouts or CERT or both. If you want to further divest CAP away from the USAF, perhaps the solution for those people is to join an org that already is divested.

There are ways of making the NCO and officer program work together and complementary. The current method is IMO poorly executed, but that is no reason to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

98 percent of what Senior members do, do not require "rank" in any way form or fashion. It doesn't require uniforms like the AF has either. A lot of the animosity I see in the ranks has to do with "rank" or "Uniforms." I can see rank for emergency services and FEMA missions, but at the home squadron or wing, the Polos and no rank would work just fine.

Your mileage may vary. :)
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Fubar on February 18, 2020, 07:34:14 am
Quote from: Eclipse on February 17, 2020, 08:18:26 pmMaybe in your AOR, but that's not even remotely true nationally.

My opinion is based upon not only my AOR, but the various Facebook pages, Twitter feeds, and wing websites that post photos of cadet activities and ES training (and occasionally missions). It's nearly all polos by the adults in those photos (cadet program officers, aircrew members, mission base folks, and PD classes seem to get the most photos posted).

Admittedly, I have not done a scientific study on this, so it's a perception thing to be sure. I'm also ignoring the non-mission related photos that are posted of national board meetings and fancy diners, I'm only talking about members engaged in our missions.

Importantly, that's not to say there aren't still pockets where military-style uniforms aren't still enthusiastically worn. I respect your opinion and if you say it's the norm where you're at, I believe it.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Holding Pattern on February 18, 2020, 06:54:44 pm
Quote from: Fubar on February 18, 2020, 07:34:14 am
Quote from: Eclipse on February 17, 2020, 08:18:26 pmMaybe in your AOR, but that's not even remotely true nationally.

My opinion is based upon not only my AOR, but the various Facebook pages, Twitter feeds, and wing websites that post photos of cadet activities and ES training (and occasionally missions).

Several squadrons in my area have deliberately shut down all PAO ops because rather than Wing or higher HQs being helpful in correcting uniform issues those directorates feel that their mission is to find a pixel out of place in a uniform and come down on the squadron leadership like a ton of bricks.

There are plenty of people wearing uniforms; they just avoid the limelight like the plague.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Eclipse on February 18, 2020, 08:41:10 pm
Quote from: Fubar on February 18, 2020, 07:34:14 amAdmittedly, I have not done a scientific study on this, so it's a perception thing to be sure. I'm also ignoring the non-mission related photos that are posted of national board meetings and fancy diners, I'm only talking about members engaged in our missions.

Is it too on the nose to remind folks that the Cadet Program is a mission, arguably 50% of
CAPs total mission?

Uniform wear is a big part of the mission for the CP, and arguments that "we can do what we need to
just fine in a golf shirt" don't fly in that context.

If the adults interacting with Cadets can't be bothered, why should they?
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Gunsotsu on February 18, 2020, 10:35:37 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on February 18, 2020, 08:41:10 pmIs it too on the nose to remind folks that the Cadet Program is a mission, arguably 50% of
CAPs total mission?

Uniform wear is a big part of the mission for the CP, and arguments that "we can do what we need to
just fine in a golf shirt" don't fly in that context.

If the adults interacting with Cadets can't be bothered, why should they?

And how does wearing a polo negatively affect the Cadet Program mission? The "uniform?" Well, if you're going to make that leap, it's not that much farther to state that anyone ineligible to wear the same "uniform" as cadets shouldn't interact with them. And where does that leave us?

Seniors don't need anything beyond a polo and gray pants. Full stop.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Eclipse on February 18, 2020, 11:02:19 pm
Quote from: Gunsotsu on February 18, 2020, 10:35:37 pmSeniors don't need anything beyond a polo and gray pants.

This, for starters, is objectively false.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Fubar on February 19, 2020, 03:20:46 am
Quote from: Holding Pattern on February 18, 2020, 06:54:44 pmSeveral squadrons in my area have deliberately shut down all PAO ops because rather than Wing or higher HQs being helpful in correcting uniform issues those directorates feel that their mission is to find a pixel out of place in a uniform and come down on the squadron leadership like a ton of bricks.

There are plenty of people wearing uniforms; they just avoid the limelight like the plague.

You know, I never thought of that. Excellent point.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Fubar on February 19, 2020, 03:48:33 am
Quote from: Eclipse on January 31, 2020, 04:02:01 pmWhat if...and just spitballing here...people joined CAP, completed internal training
>or< "proficiency-ed out" via (the same) objective tests, and were promoted based >purely<
on their demonstrated objective abilities?

Want to be the FM?  No one cares you say you're a CPA - take this test.

Want to be a small-squad leader?  First point to the small squad you will lead. Cadets?
You won't be leading them, you'll be training them like everyone else.
But you say you were an NCO in the military?  Interesting. Did your job involve motivating
12 year old volunteers 1 night a month? No? It was manning a radar station at Elmendorf
with 3 other people the same age? OK, take this class and pass this test.

This way everyone has the same relative internal experiences in regards to
training and testing, nothing is handed to anyone, and these conversations are moot.

I know, crazy.

Oh sheesh, I somehow missed this when you posted it. It's awesome and completely agree. So much drama and angst is generated from expectations of advanced promotions, advanced promotions that don't seem to positively impact CAP, and advanced promotions that actually hurt CAP.

Give everyone the same expectations and watch everyone work relatively towards the same goals.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: etodd on February 19, 2020, 04:35:21 am
Quote from: Fubar on February 19, 2020, 03:48:33 amGive everyone the same expectations and watch everyone work relatively towards the same goals.

But members have different goals. Some want to teach Cadets Aerospace, some want to be Ground Team SAR, some want to be Airborne Photographers, some want to be Mission Pilots, some want to work Mission Base, some want to be a Squadron Commander one day and maybe Wing.

Each has its own path, different sets of goals and ways of 'getting there'.

The "Senior Program" is a trade school. Learn a trade and then get to work doing it, perfecting it, and mentoring those who follow that are interested in your trade.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: catrulz on February 19, 2020, 12:47:24 pm
Multiple threads knocked off topic by uniform wear discussion.  Sheesh.

I don't believe what type of uniform your in (including the polo) has anything to do with rank structure, or whether there should or should not be senior members.

Also, the USCG Aux model would be effective at least you would know who's in charge.  CAP could also adopt a TDA/TO&E structure, that basically requires you fill a position equivalent to your Grade.  Not sure if this would work because it would constantly force you upward in duty position assignment to promote.  This would have to be carefully though out before even seriously considered, it could have the effect of bottlenecking upward movement, and therefore member development. 
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: THRAWN on February 19, 2020, 12:57:38 pm
Quote from: catrulz on February 19, 2020, 12:47:24 pmUSCG Aux model would be effective at least you would know who's in charge.

Been saying this for a couple of decades now. My oak leaf and $7.99 will get you a double mocachino soy latte...
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: THRAWN on February 19, 2020, 01:03:55 pm
Quote from: Fubar on February 19, 2020, 03:48:33 amGive everyone the same expectations and watch everyone work relatively towards the same goals.

From a minimum training perspective, that already happens. Do Level 1. If you decide to do more, it's there. If all you want to do is show up, move paper from one bin to the other, never "promote" and never take on "more responsibility", we're glad to have you. Cadets have to do the CP. That is their job in the unit. SMs have to do their job in the unit. Some, on both sides, want to do more. Plenty of opportunity to do that in ES or AE or STEM or Cyber or WAA....but if you don't want to...
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: catrulz on February 19, 2020, 04:10:26 pm
So, my USCGaux Heavy model would look like this:

In my model each commander/vice/staff roll has an authorized grade.  You may serve in role at a lower grade, but you may not exceed the authorized grade.  Squadron Commanders could move to Group Vice Commander or Wing Staff.  There is upward eligibility for all.

So a Lt or Captian could serve on Wing Staff, but shouldn't if there is an available Major to fill the slot.  I would Also build within Each Wing Ghost Squadron an Operations only staff.  This unit could hold additional members without a unit duty assignment, and mainly want to work ES, Flight Ops or Comm.  This unit would have an inflated TDA:

Squadron Commander: Major
Squadron Vice Commander(s): Captains
Squadron Staff:  SGTs or 2ndLT Assistant, 1st LT Primary

Group Commander:  Lt Col. 
Group Vice Commander: Major
Group Staff:  1st Lt Assistant, Captain Primary

Wing Commander: Colonel
Wing Vice Commander:  LtCol
Wing Staff:  Captain Assistant, Major Primary

Once you moved up, you would only be able to move into an equivalent or higher grade slot.

The Unit Ghost Squadron:

IC  LtCol
MP+Check Pilot(STAN EVAL)+FRO LtCol (any 2)
MP  Major
CUL Major
MSO Major
GBD/ABD Major
GTL Major

You get the idea.  It allows you turn the Ghost Squadron into a responder unit.

Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: catrulz on February 19, 2020, 04:14:21 pm
Continued:

This means a Wing the size of Missouri would have in the area of:

1  Col
10 LtCol
65 Majors
75 Captains
100 LTs
Rest Sergeants (only 1 1LT and 1 2LT in staff area in the squadron).

SM until Level 1 Complete, then SrA) until promotable to SSGT via qualification.  I hate to bring this up in fear of having this become a uniform thread again, I would allow NCOs to wear the plain CAP Gray Epualettes with Stips pinned to them on the White corporate flight shirt.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Eclipse on February 19, 2020, 04:24:13 pm
Quote from: catrulz on February 19, 2020, 12:47:24 pmMultiple threads knocked off topic by uniform wear discussion.

Not really.  Both of them are really "corporate vs. military vs 'just come and go as you please"
discussions. The multiform is just a symptom of the larger problem and a broken compromise
to appease people that actually just causes more issues.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: catrulz on February 19, 2020, 05:03:09 pm
So a Squadron TDA would look like this (incomplete, example):

100 Command Section Composite Squadron:
101 Commander         Major
102 Deputy Commander Seniors     Captain
103 Deputy Commander Cadets      Captain (a Senior or Cadet Squadron Eliminates this position)
104 Squadron Sr. NCO      MSGT

200 Staff Section Composite Squadron:
200 Personnel Officer      1st LT (requires Tech Rating in Personnel)
200A Asst Personnel Officer   2ndLT (Requires Tech Rating in Personnel)

The intent would be the Tech rating requirements at Group and Wing would be minimum Sr Rating in their Specialty.  If they are serving on Wing Staff and they are a Tech Rated Captain, they remain a captain until they achieve the required rating.
200B Personnel NCO      TSGT (Requires Tech Rating in Personnel)
201   Public Affairs Officer   1st LT (requires Tech Rating in PAO)
201A Asst PAO         2ndLT (Requires Tech Rating in PAO)
201B PAO NCO         TSGT (Requires Tech Rating in PAO)
204   Professional Development   1st LT (requires Tech Rating in PD)
204A ASST PD         2ndLT (Requires Tech Rating in PD)
204B Training NCO      TSGT (Requires Tech Rating in PD)
205   Admin Officer        1st LT (requires Tech Rating in Administration)
205A Asst Admin PD      2ndLT (Requires Tech Rating in Administration)
205B Admin NCO              TSGT (Requires Tech Rating in Administration)
206   Logistics Officer     1st LT (requires Tech Rating in Logistics)
205A Asst Logistics      2ndLT (Requires Tech Rating in Logistics)
206B Logistics NCO      TSGT (Requires Tech Rating in Logistics)
213   ES Officer        1st LT (requires Tech Rating in Emergency Services)
213A Asst ES         2ndLT (Requires Tech Rating in Emergency Services)
213B Readiness NCO      TSGT (Requires Tech Rating in Emergency Services)
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Eclipse on February 19, 2020, 05:16:11 pm
I don't understand why people bother doing this sort of math.

You can't have manning tables and staff requirements if your SOP is "you're lucky I showed up at all".
That's not going to change in a volunteer organization that depends on the benevolence of
it's members to exist and provide little, if any, tangible benefits for the effort of being
a member.
Title: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: PHall on February 19, 2020, 05:31:09 pm
Many, many moons ago CAP had manning tables for all units. They also regulated the number of slots available for each grade, all controlled by the number of members on the roster of that unit.

We gave it up because it wasn't workable...

Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: catrulz on February 19, 2020, 05:44:43 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on February 19, 2020, 05:16:11 pmI don't understand why people bother doing this sort of math.

You can't have manning tables and staff requirements if your SOP is "you're lucky I showed up at all".
That's not going to change in a volunteer organization that depends on the benevolence of
it's members to exist and provide little, if any, tangible benefits for the effort of being
a member.

I think there is little motivation or encouragement in most units to actually contribute above baby sitting (my apologies to cadet who read this not implying that you need it).  For those members let them be sponsor members or allow them to make SSGT and that's where they stop. 

If you don't train, or contribute, the unit/organization doesn't owe you anything.  I have been is position where real life gets in the way.  There is a always a way to contribute remotely, whenever you have time.

The problem is we promote people for sitting around for 6 months, or a year and half, and pencil whip their personnel record to justify it.  You blame this on poor leadership, but the guy in charge has the overall access in e-services.  So, its up to them if you get recommended/approved.  I knew a safety officer in a unit that had been SO for three years, wasn't tech rated, and didn't know where to get his specialty track pamphlet.  Hadn't stopped them from being promoted.  Missouri Wing had a group commander that was a former O4, and refused to take any CAP PD and therefore made terrible decisions.  We had a couple of Army O4's and they did the CAP PD recognizing that they need to understand the organization.  These guys were excellent commanders and staff officers.

Remember, Its not about  us.  In that case this system is perfect, you want to just come in and help when you can, you remain an NCO.  You want to learn and take on more and more responsibility, then you advance based on what the organization gets out of you.  I think thats fair, it still provides room for everyone, but recognizes those that get a deep understanding of CAP and volunteers to participate.  We still show appreciation to the casual participants through ribbon and certificates.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Eclipse on February 19, 2020, 06:33:12 pm
The other place manning tables and similar break down is CAP's lack of,
the the general inability of in a volunteer organizaiton "up and/or out".

Members cycle through legit PD and progression over a 10-15 year period,
then cycle back to the unit and the whole thing breaks as FGOs are sitting
back in rank and file.

And if you try to "up and out" in CAP, the whole thing comes down around you in what,
5 years?
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: catrulz on February 19, 2020, 07:14:01 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on February 19, 2020, 06:33:12 pmThe other place manning tables and similar break down is CAP's lack of,
the the general inability of in a volunteer organizaiton "up and/or out".

Members cycle through legit PD and progression over a 10-15 year period,
then cycle back to the unit and the whole thing breaks as FGOs are sitting
back in rank and file.

And if you try to "up and out" in CAP, the whole thing comes down around you in what,
5 years?

Agreed, so not proposing "up or out", I'm proposing Train, Serve, Contribute or stay where you are.  And to move up, you must move up.
Title: Re: Re: NCOs in CAP (Split from the Perfection thing)
Post by: Майор Хаткевич on February 19, 2020, 08:42:47 pm
Quote from: catrulz on February 19, 2020, 07:14:01 pm
Quote from: Eclipse on February 19, 2020, 06:33:12 pmThe other place manning tables and similar break down is CAP's lack of,
the the general inability of in a volunteer organizaiton "up and/or out".

Members cycle through legit PD and progression over a 10-15 year period,
then cycle back to the unit and the whole thing breaks as FGOs are sitting
back in rank and file.

And if you try to "up and out" in CAP, the whole thing comes down around you in what,
5 years?

Agreed, so not proposing "up or out", I'm proposing Train, Serve, Contribute or stay where you are.  And to move up, you must move up.
Or sideline, or take a breather! 

2003-2010 - Earhart Cadet
2010-2012 - Inactive SM while in college
2012-2014 - Leadership Officer
2014-2015 - Assistant CDC
2015-2016 - CDC
2016-2018 - CC
2018-2020 - Patron. 

Stuff Happens.