Should pilot crew duty day start time be on the CAPF104?

[RiverAux]

Okay, CAP has really been focusing a lot of attention on crew duty day limitations (as have the military) in recent years.  As a reminder, here is the rule from 60-1:

2-15. Flight Time and Duty Limitations. Pilots will not be scheduled for more than 8 hours and will not, under any circumstances, exceed 10 hours flight time during a 14-hour crew duty day. The crew duty day begins when reporting for work or CAP duty (whichever occurred first) and ends upon engine shutdown at the completion of the flight activity. At least a 10-hour crew rest period should be provided between duty days. Exceptions to the crew duty day limitation will be considered for life-saving missions only and will be requested by the pilot-in-command through the incident commander to the wing commander. Approval for up to 16 hours crew duty day may be granted by the wing commander only after all appropriate Operational Risk Management (ORM) considerations have been evaluated. The wing commander must advise the region commander of any crew duty day extensions within 24 hours of such action.

If we're going to take this so seriously, should we consider adding a block on the CAPF 104 form for the pilot to write in the start time for his crew duty day?  I know of no offical way of tracking this in place now.  Without it being written down on the form, how is mission staff going to really know a pilot's time limitation?  How can the mission staff know when he reported for work before coming the CAP mission?   These should be times that mission staff is tracking rather than just waiting for the pilot to self-volunteer the information when it may be too late to find a replacement.

Now, if you're at a full-scale search starting in the morning you can probably assume that the pilot's crew duty day started with everybody elses and that he hadn't just got off an all-night shift.  But, I still think it should be on the form so that the briefing officer can check it before the pilot takes off. 

Thoughts?

[SJFedor]

It's the responsibility of both the pilot in command and the air branch director to monitor that. There's no special form for it, but it's their job to keep a close eye on it.

They need to release the new 104. I used the beta version at NESA that whole week, and came back to the old one, and I missed it. Lots.

I can see elaborating it as a block on the ORM, Scoring a duty day of 0-5 as a 0, 5-10 a 10, 10-14 a 20, and >14=NG or Requires Approval score. But as part of the 104 in itself, I think there's too much going on with that form to begin with. 

[DHollywood]

+1 on the new Beta CAPF 104

When we do ORM we do it as a crew and we discuss duty time and rest time of all the crew, not just the PIC.

[RiverAux]

Somewhere on some official CAP form we should be tracking this -- I'm open to putting it on other forms but with the ICS mania its become difficult to avoid having to use their cookie cutter forms that which rarely are very useful for CAP. 

[arajca]

Somewhere on some official CAP form we should be tracking this -- I'm open to putting it on other forms but with the ICS mania its become difficult to avoid having to use their cookie cutter forms that which rarely are very useful for CAP. 

Actually, 90+% of the ICS forms are useful. It's in the CAP specific functions like flight planning that there is a lack of ICS forms.

Almost everytime I hear CAP member make that complaint, it's because they haven't used or been trained on the ICS forms or are fixated on using CAP 'special' forms.

[RiverAux]

Like it or not CAP has developed a series of forms over our 60+ years that work very well for most of our needs.  For most of them there aren't really any comparable ICS options and for those that there are (check in, air ops summary for example), they also don't meet our needs. 

[ZigZag911]

Most of the ICS forms are OK, but ICS 211 (sign in) STINKS!

[CadetProgramGuy]

OK we talk about duty day, but according to the REG's when does it start?

[RiverAux]

See the first post where the reg is quoted.

[CadetProgramGuy]

Another instance where I should actually read some of the postings

[RiverAux]

I am now thinking that we actually need to be tracking pilot crew duty day start AND total flight time.  I know we usually come a lot closer to busting a pilot's allowable flight time than we do the 14 hour duty day (except in cases where we're talking about an ELT search after they've already done a full day's work).  For BIG missions, the 8 hour limit is much more critical. 

[Al Sayre]

You can redesign ICS forms to fit your needs, as long as you don't change the function...  That's part of the beauty of ICS, it's flexible.

[RiverAux]

Wouldn't even think of it given all the grief we've gotten at SAREVALs for not using official forms.  No local modifications allowed unless they're in an approved Wing supplement to 60-3. 

[ZigZag911]

I tend to agree that 104s are too crammed as it is.

There ought to be something, though, and it should be available to Planning Section as well as Ops & the Branch directors.....we really need to keep better track of duty days for all personnel, especially aircrews & ground teams....and in particular pilots & drivers.