Fossett Search

[oak2007]

It seem that some CAP have a tendency to speak before there brain engages! While attending the current mission at Bishop, Ca. A Sheriffs helicopter landed at the base. The pilot contacted base staff and informed them that he was instructed by NV. OES to assist at the Bishop base.
He ask Comm personnel if he could get the CAP frequencies so he could monitor search traffic. He was flat out told No. He reminded them that he was dispatched by NV. OES. The comm personnel told him " Then go back to NV". He then departed the search base

There is a right and wrong way of doing things and this wasn't one of them

[Stonewall]

Now that's the CAP I know...

Did this really happen?  I believe it, but I don't want to. 

[RiverAux]

It would be the first time any local official has ever listened to CAP that I'm aware of, which is why I tend to discount it. 

[oak2007]

Yes this really happen. The gentleman that was told to go back to NV was the CEO of Silverstate Helicopters which is contracted to agency that don't have air support in there departments. and yes he was a law enforcement officer.

[CASH172]

Yes this really happen. The gentleman that was told to go back to NV was the CEO of Silverstate Helicopters which is contracted to agency that don't have air support in there departments. and yes he was a law enforcement officer.

I guess law enforcement now actually respects us.  This is amazing. 

[SJFedor]

Yes this really happen. The gentleman that was told to go back to NV was the CEO of Silverstate Helicopters which is contracted to agency that don't have air support in there departments. and yes he was a law enforcement officer.

Jerry Airola WAS an LEO at one point in his life, but he's not an LEO anymore. He's a corporate exec. And OPSEC dictates that, more or less, we don't share those frequencies with those that don't need to know. And a corporate exec does not need to know. There's definitely more professional ways of saying it, but if some guy rolls into a CP asking for our frequencies, I'm gonna tell him to go fly a kite, too.

[mikeylikey]

There's definitely more professional ways of saying it, but if some guy rolls into a CP asking for our frequencies, I'm gonna tell him to go fly a kite, too.

Take your helicopter and kite and fly away sir, fly away.  (or I prefer....."Sir, please go FRACK yourself")

[oak2007]

I am more concerned about the unprofessional attitude that some CAP members project to others

[arajca]

Obiviously, there are some details left out. Such as:
Was he an official resource requested by the IC?
Was he a free lancer?
Did he actually have the appropriate comm equipment?
Why couldn't he have used the FAA Air SAR freq?

[Flying Pig]

There isnt anything left out.  I was standing right next to the guy.  In fact I walked out the the helicopter and greeted him and walked him into the CP.   I was the guy who introduced him to the IC and watched in horror and embarrassment as he was all but shoved out the door.  It wasnt Airola, it was one of the other top guys.  I won't mention his name.  He was a retired LE Officer

1. He was requested by NV OES.  But he stopped in at the base to make contact knowing CAP was the handle.  He viewed CAP as one, not Nv and Ca.  He didnt walk in with an official signed request, but being a cop myself, I thought vouching for him, since I knew him would be enough to get the ball rolling.

2. He was not a free lancer

3. He had alll the radio gear he needed, Searchlight, and I think also had FLIR capabilities.

4.Because he wanted to be aware of what was going on during his flight from Bishop to Minden and wanted to be able to assist while enroute with his MD-500.

I was then told by one of the base staff that searching with a helicopter is a nightmare.  Ummm....I beg to differ. 
Anyway, SJFedor.  I would hope you wouldnt tell someone to go fly a kite.  Its that very attitude that is being addressed here.  It was one of the most unprofessional things I have ever witnessed.  And CAP was the one at fault.

[SoCalCAPOfficer]

Was it the IC that told him to leave, or the Comm Officer?

[Flying Pig]

 Now..nobody told him to literally leave the building they were just blatantly rude.  He knew he wasnt getting anywhere with CAP so he moved on.  Id like to know how he was greeted in Minden.

[Skyray]

Interesting developement.  CNN just reported that the Fossett search has turned up six previously uncharted crash sites.  Shades of the Florida Everglades, where we threw blaze orange paint on every one we found so that the people who came along later knew it had already been processed.

[arajca]

1. He was requested by NV OES.  But he stopped in at the base to make contact knowing CAP was the handle.  He viewed CAP as one, not Nv and Ca.  He didnt walk in with an official signed request, but being a cop myself, I thought vouching for him, since I knew him would be enough to get the ball rolling.

Is NV OES the IC?

[Flying Pig]

Look.  CAP was wrong.  He was 100% respectful and polite.  The guy was requested through government channels to assist and was told a mission base was located at Bishop.  He arrived and he was treated in a very disrespectful manner.  Im sure he saw the effort as one big SAR.  Instead he got "these are our toys and you cant play."  I guess it was his fault he didnt complete the CAP ES Course prior to landing.   We can forget that he was bringing an invaluable resource with him and told us he was at our disposal. Not to mention I had someone try to lecture me about how helicopters are a nightmare in SAR?

Come out of your CAP bubble for just one second.

[Major Carrales]

According to the Incident Command System, non-CAP assets can be used in searches as part of the "Air Branch."  That is if the ICS system allows in its planning.

If the IC and the mission is a totally CAP one, then other assets have to comply to CAP.  If mission planning did not allow for other assets to use CAP frequencies, then that is not rude, it is in keeping with mission planning.

This is when the Agency Liaisons and Planning Section needs to be put to work. 

I think we all need to review our ICS training.

[RiverAux]

Someone should have checked with the CAP base before dispatching an asset there to see if they were needed and perhaps could have saved time by sending them direct to the area where they were needed.  If the person was not treated respectfully, that is a bad on CAP, but if people, even from legit agencies just start showing up without prior coordination, thats a problem.  I would say the same thing if a CAP aircrew showed up on someone else's search without being requested by the agency in charge. 

[jeders]

Facts:

Someone came to help out and wanted to be able to stay in contact and monitor what was going on. Now I agree that this particular person was not one of the needs to know, this is the whole reason for OPSEC. However, there is a good way and a bad way to handle it.

Telling someone to go fly a kite is rude and will not help at all.

Telling someone that rules don't allow you to share frequencies, but you can still help and stay in contact on other public frequencies will get more resources and a better public image.

If someone comes in wanting to help, don't be a jerk.

[flyerthom]

Now..nobody told him to literally leave the building they were just blatantly rude.  He knew he wasnt getting anywhere with CAP so he moved on.  Id like to know how he was greeted in Minden.

It probably wasn't Mr Airola. One his pilots "Topper"was working quite well with us in Minden, including being on our ICS frequencys and searching grids assigned. He was part ofour assests in NV. I'm not why he received that reception in CA.

[flyerthom]

1. He was requested by NV OES.  But he stopped in at the base to make contact knowing CAP was the handle.  He viewed CAP as one, not Nv and Ca.  He didnt walk in with an official signed request, but being a cop myself, I thought vouching for him, since I knew him would be enough to get the ball rolling.

Is NV OES the IC?

NV CAP is the IC with OES working in a true interagency ICS. NV Nationa Guard is suppling rotors and security. The media was getting pushy until they deployed.

[Flying Pig]

flyerthom.

Thanks for the update.  Im glad to hear he worked out well for you guys up there.

[Major Lord]

Okay, I am confused! Was the offended party  "A Sheriffs helicopter " pilot as stated in the first post, or a civilian in a civilian commercial aircraft?

Major Lord

[Flying Pig]

He was  a retired LE officer who now flies for law enforcement agencies who contract with him for Air Support services.  Then the contract agency will supply him with a LE observer.  The helicopter has "SHERIFF" markings.

[Flying Pig]

RiverAux
Someone should have checked with the CAP base before dispatching an asset there to see if they were needed and perhaps could have saved time by sending them direct to the area where they were needed.  If the person was not treated respectfully, that is a bad on CAP, but if people, even from legit agencies just start showing up without prior coordination, thats a problem.  I would say the same thing if a CAP aircrew showed up on someone else's search without being requested by the agency in charge.

He was flying to Minden from Las Vegas.  Bishop was a fuel stop for him.  He wanted to make contact with the Bishop people as well to let them know he was available and introduce himself. 

[Major Lord]

Okay, here is what my investigation has found so far: The gentlemen in question arrived at the base in a helicopter with Sheriff Department Markings, wearing  shorts, a  "silver state" helicopter T-shirt, and a beard. The helicopter he was piloting was known to staff on scene as having been recently offered for sale on the open market. He identified himself as a Merced County Deputy Sheriff to the Comm's guy on scene and requested the CAP frequencies in use. The Comm unit Officer reminded the pilot of the common aeronautical SAR frequencies, but declined to provide the local frequencies in use, apparently, not being satisfied as to the bona fides of the pilot. This may have been based on his questionable identity, or statements interpreted to mean that he was sent by the Merced County Sheriff to help out Nevada.

In fact, he was a privately contracted vendor flying a private aircraft, and any conflicts with him were apparently resolved after a conservation with (Major) Keilholtz. I have nothing against contract assets ( I are one) but he could have been working for anyone. He was not there in any LE or official capacity.

The AO crawls with media and Google assets, and our Comm guy did exactly the right thing: Told him nothing and pointed him to the IC. Good man! Sorry it hurt his feelings.

OPSEC is clearly a problem, and people have made a wide variety of bewildering public statements that have made it to the media's hands, Including the stories about plane crashes we did not know were there but would not have bodies in them anyway because of lions and coyotes! ( What were you smoking?)

Be VERY aware that Google is flooding the area with their own assets, and that they are surfing for any Intel they can come up with. Some Cadet suggesting online that he may have been shot down over area 51 may be viewed as better Intel than a clairvoyant ( and they are out there in droves) phoning in "tips". Anything you say can and will be used against you ( and us!)



Major Lord

[Flying Pig]

Your investigation?  I was there.  He never identified himself as a Merced County Deputy. He identified himself as working with law enforcement. He clearly stated he was requested by Nv OES and that he was based in Las Vegas.  He arrived wearing jeans and an SSH polo shirt and an SSH hat.  Clearly appropriate dress.   He had a goatee.  And in fact, a CAP member in the room also had a goatee as well.  He was never "reminded" of FAA freqs.  He was only told that he couldnt have the CAP freqs because the Air Force issued them to CAP.    I am the one who told the staff that he was a Merced SO contract pilot AFTER the pilot left the room. The helicopter was prior owned by San Joaquin Sheriff and was bought by SSH for LE contracts.  There was nothing resolved after a conversation with the IC, because the issue at hand occured after he introduced himself to the IC. In fact the IC really didnt give him more than a handshake.  So I would say your investigation was a waste of your time and flawed.

[ZigZag911]

Gentlemen:

I'm an IC. If an unscheduled air asset shows up and informs me he is from one of the agencies we are working with, I'm going to:

1) ask if he has any documentation (orders)

2) if not, invite him to relax and have a cup of coffee while I give the other agency
    a call and see what they had in mind

If the pilot has actually been sent or contracted by LE, OEM, or whatever, he'll sit down and enjoy the coffee, understanding that for whatever reason, we had not received word he was coming.

If the pilot is a 'volunteer', I'll need to explain that CAP does not (in fact can not, by regulation) coordinate the search activities of individual pilots unaffiliated with any of our partner agencies.

As for the comm officer, I wasn't there to hear how it was stated, but the simple fact is we are prohibited from sharing "FOUO" radio frequencies.

Certainly we should all be polite and respectful when dealing with anyone.

[Major Lord]

The initial post strongly implied that this was an official AC on an official mission. Subsequent posts implied that he was there in a LE capacity. Witnesses said that he identified himself as a Deputy. He is a hired pilot in a vehicle bearing police markings. Sure it could have been handled better, but he literally flew false colors. As I understand it, he works for Hilton, and is not a police agent, i.e "working with law enforcement".  His standing as a contractor for police was/ is not germane, but since he, and you, brought it up in an attempt to enhance his credibility, it is worth exploring. The statements he made were witnessed by multiple parties, who may not have understood his perhaps nuanced affiliation with LE. My information came from command staff physically present with no axe to grind, and no overly parochial view on Law Enforcement officers. I stand by it.

Major Lord

[ELTHunter]

I read in today's paper that several pilots from Hilton's ranch are also participating in the search.  Anybody know anything about that?

[flyerthom]

I read in today's paper that several pilots from Hilton's ranch are also participating in the search.  Anybody know anything about that?

There are grid areas set aside for them. Yes they are participating outside of CAP's areas but with IC interface.

Intel than a clairvoyant ( and they are out there in droves) phoning in "tips".

The number calling in is quite high. Not one of them has proven correct.
I'm back to the world as that evil four letter word "work" calls in the am. Today no joy and the mission will continue.  Our crew alone flew 17.5 hours from Friday till the end of today. I didn't bother to compute the distance. The GA airvan is in operations, C 182's and C 206's are in use. The new Garmin 1000 C-182's are in use. There's a Guard c 130 in use as well as Guard Jet Rangers and Black Hawks under CAP Incident Command. The guard is now deploying ground troops.  CAP Ground teams are in the game. This is on the NV side alone. I have no knowledge of what CA wing is doing but they are out there in force. We are a team and I'm <bleep> proud of CAP as a whole.

They have found several (I can't verify the number and guessing isn't good) old uncharted wrecks. Those mountains hold many secrets. What I will pitch a fit about is how mankind has used the desert as a dump. There are many old abandoned and uncleaned mines and junkyards. All that shinny debris makes our task very difficult.

The one thing I will ask of folks here is not to speculate on any problems. The media is digging deep even to the point of trying to catch us coming out of the rest room (the rest room is in a more public area) to try and nail us for quotes. I'm sure they've been here by their use of Google.

And of course most important of all. I wish to thank you all for your support. Those if us out there know you're pulling for us and it means a lot. Hopefully if this continues on longer I'll be able to return.

Thanks again.

TC

[Flying Pig]

The statements he made were witnessed by multiple parties, who may not have understood his perhaps nuanced affiliation with LE. My information came from command staff physically present with no axe to grind, and no overly parochial view on Law Enforcement officers. I stand by it.

Feel free to stand by your inaccurate information.  I was one of the few people that was actually part of the conversation, not a third party hearing it from my buddies after the fact.  I am a CAP officer and a law enforcement officer involved in aviation.  I happen to live in both worlds.  So if you want to talk about having no axe to grind I'd say I qualify.  Nobody heard him identify himself as a Deputy because he never did.  I was with him from the moment he landed until the time he took off.  I appareantly dont qualify as one of the parties present who witnessed any statements. 

[NIN]

Oh, for cripes sakes, guys. Let it go. It happened, what, two days ago?  He's probably already forgotten it.

[JohnKachenmeister]

The fact is the frequencies ARE FOUO, and they are not ours to give away.  The are freq's assigned to the USAF and then further assigned by the AF to us.

Hopefully, by this point in a mature operation there is a joint air operations CP.  He could have assisted on the LE side, with coordination through the command post with CAP. 

[Major Lord]

My understanding is that he was a contractor working for a private concern, not there in any official capacity. My personal BS meter became pegged when this was first anounced as a Sheriff's Helicopter, with the clear implication that this was an official LE asset. The story continues to change with new info. I just can't see any CAP member telling a cop to pound sand, which the parties involved denied. This looks like a case of a guy being pissed off because we did not respect his god-like status as a former/retired/or wannabe LEO Helicopter pilot. Who has not had some former cop trying to BS inside info out of them by "badging" their way into a situation they were not privy too? Our people apparently denied access to closely-held tactical information to a mercenary pilot. Good. The people involved in the Bishop base have more AIR-SAR experience than just about anybody, and I am inclined to side with them.

On the other hand, who would not welcome another bird to help search that much terrain? I don't know who in their right mind would think that a helicopter is the wrong tool for such a job ( Maybe a CAP person is a little too parochial about the mighty Cessna!)

Major Lord

[A.Member]

Oh, for cripes sakes, guys. Let it go. It happened, what, two days ago?  He's probably already forgotten it.

Agreed.  Who cares?

This is a he said - she said argument.  You guys are arguing about details that no one knows about and, frankly, don't matter.  The initial point of the post essentially was stating that we should always work to address people professionally.  Agreed.  End of post.  Instead you're dragging this thing out.

You guys are now crying over spilled milk and beating a dead-horse (how's that for the use of cliche statements?)  If you still want to quibble over details, I'd suggest taking it to PM at this point.

[Major Lord]

I will happily drop this!  It sickens me to think that there are members who are willing to stab our own people in the field in the back while they are trying to prosecute a mission. Especially for something as silly as some non-CAP pilots' hurt feelings. Anyone has has been in the field only to have disgruntled and anonymous petty accusations broached behind their backs knows how irritating it is to have the armchair QB's try to run the game. Our first loyalty must be to our people carrying out the mission.

Major Lord

[Flying Pig]

OK, we'll drop it since CaptLords investigation has revealed that nothing happened. I would hardly call anything discussed here as "anonymous".

[Smokey]

Easy now....before this gets locked....

I know there are some ruffled feathers here (notice the aviation reference )

First---to neutral corners...
Second...a deep breath.  We are all professionals here.

I too work both sides (CAP & cop)...so now that all is calmed down...come to the center of the ring...shake...and back to the search.

[Major Lord]

CapCops? Capiffers? Polcaps? There oughta be a name for this phenomenon!

Major Lord

[oak2007]

Geez
A far as OPSET and CAP frequencies go. You can do a Goggle search for CAP SAR frequencies and watch what comes up.. Everything, so there is no great mystery for all of the would  be CIA agents, or armchair Generals we have  in CAP
The whole point is, when we treat anyone with little or no respect, regardless on who it may be. It reflects poorly on the organization as a whole and does nothing but makes us all look like a bunch of jerks.  So think twice before oping up your mouth because the word gets out there

[PHall]

Geez
A far as OPSET and CAP frequencies go. You can do a Goggle search for CAP SAR frequencies and watch what comes up..

The OPSEC rules say that if they don't have a valid need for the info, we don't give it to them.
Now if they Google it and come up with the info, fine.

The main thing is that we lived up to our side of the agreement with the Air Force about the frequencies.

[oak2007]

Right!!

[flyerthom]

CapCops? Capiffers? Polcaps? There oughta be a name for this phenomenon!

Major Lord

No wonder I couldn't find a doughnut the whole time I was in Minden!!

<ducking and running away >

[floridacyclist]

So who defines "official use"? Would it be any different if the person had a legitimate "official use" for the frequencies (ie had been assigned to work with us by competent authority)? Is that official enough?

[SDF_Specialist]

Gentlemen, I'm sorry to get off the subject of the last few posts before this one, but has there been any updates regarding the Fossett search? Has he been found? Also, allow me to apologize for my laziness. Reading is not one of my strong points (meaning that I'm too lazy to do so).

[a2capt]

Quick interjection here, re FOUO and handling of CAP Frequencies.

Sure, you can, they can, we all can, 'google' for it. However if the personnel on site are handling the information as we have been now recently asked, and required to do, then when we get our new frequency assignments, things will be a lot harder, supposedly, to google for ...

[Tom_Charpentier]

Let's Stop All This BS.
1. I am the accused offending party.
2. I was not the IC or Comm. I was OPS.
3. I often come across as "RUDE".
4. I didn't see the helicopter until after the discussion, but it would not have made a difference as he was not a uniformed Law Enforcement Officer.
5. If you identify yourself as a Corporate Executive from Silver State Helicopters, then try to pass yourself off as a Law Enforcement Officer to try and get additional information, I will know you too are lying.
6. No rotary wing assetts from outside Nevada were requested to assist by Nevada OES. They were all privateers looking to cash in and were being paid by the Hilton and Fossett families.
7. I don't know or care if he was offended by my being rude. I do know he was pissed off that he couldn't get his way after attempting to intimidate me with the "LE" card.
8. According to what I see here, many non-posters agree with some of you that I was wrong in the way I handled this situation. Since none of you seem to have the courage to confront me directly, then I will say I really don't care how you feel about it. If you don't like me or my style, you are cordially invited to not participate in future events where I am involved.
9. Why was this post allowed to stand anyway? What's with the agreement on Terms Of Use.

[cnitas]

Gentlemen, I'm sorry to get off the subject of the last few posts before this one, but has there been any updates regarding the Fossett search? Has he been found?

[Flying Pig]

Who doesnt have the courage?  I told you that you were wrong when you did it.

[sardak]

This thread, which I suspect is going to get locked, was for this specific incident with the helicopter.

The general Fossett thread which has been used to discuss the overall search is here:
CAP Aircraft Searching for Steve Fossett
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=2935.0

Those wanting updates on the search should direct their queries there.

Mike

[Flying Pig]

Maybe it should be locked.  So far, Tom and I were the only two people there.  Everything else is speculation.  Tom and I dont agree on how it was handled and hopefully we can meet up someday for a cup.