Long term viability of CAP as an air SAR/DR force

[ZigZag911]

CAP already requires ICS 300 for IC/AL2 and ICS 400 for IC/AL1.

[isuhawkeye]

OK guys this thread has gotten way off topic. 

Yes the standards are out, and are very new.  As of today what most agencies are doing is simply comparing their system to the drafts.  No major changes are expected immediately.   

YES CAP requires ICS for upper management positions.  Unfortunately our requirements do not match the prescribed break down as suggested by NIMS. 

The frustration on my end is that like many many issues CAP at the national level has provided no guidance on this topic, and many wings have plowed ahead. 

We have talked many times about NIMS, and resource typing.

As far as CAP's long term viability goes,

I truly believe that we are a viable resource, and that we will be in the future, but to be used we need to train to our standards, build local, and state relationships, act like a professional, and deliver a quality response to meet the needs of the other agencies. 

[sardak]

You're correct.  The credentialing "job titles" for SAR have not been finalized.  However, the requirements for NIMS training are independent of those, and have been phased in over several years.

FY07 NIMS compliance requirements for federal, state, local, tribal, private sector & non-governmental personnel to include:

Entry level first responders & disaster workers - EMS personnel, firefighters, hospital staff, law enforcement personnel, public health personnel, public works/utility personnel, skilled support personnel, other emergency management response, support, volunteer personnel at all levels
ICS-100, IS-700

First line supervisors, single resource leaders, field supervisors, and other emergency management/response personnel that require a higher level of ICS/NIMS Training.
ICS-100, ICS-200, IS-700

Mid-level management including strike team leaders, task force leaders, unit leaders, division/group supervisors, branch directors
ICS-100, ICS-200, ICS-300, IS-700, IS-800

Command and general staff, select department heads with multi-agency coordination system responsibilities, area commanders, emergency managers
ICS-100, ICS-200, ICS-300, ICS-400, IS-700, IS-800

An organization does not have to be NIMS compliant.  However, to receive federal grant money and to be eligible for response on an event of national significance, an agency has to meet NIMS requirements. 

Mike

[isuhawkeye]

 :clap:
thanks for summarizing the point

[RiverAux]

As I said, when all the specific standards are set, I'm sure CAP will get in line but that is just a short-term issue and won't affect our long-term viability. 

[JC004]

:clap:
thanks for summarizing the point

Will someone ever fix that applause emoticon?

[SARMedTech]

Yes, yes, NIMS is the "law", but as of at least a few months ago the actual standards for training for various SAR positions have NOT been approved and were only available in draft form.  More than likely the final versions will be similar to the drafts, but it would be stupid for CAP to take any significant actions until they are finalized. 

USCGAUX REQUIRES ICS 100 and 200 before you can even get on the water. With the entire ICS sequence freely available to anyone who wants/needs to take them, there just isnt any excuse.  I already have 100 and 200 under my belt, but I took them over a year ago and am going to take them online again to refresh my memory.

This is the kind of thing I am always talking about: people want to do good jobs, they say we are going to become obsolete if we dont get in line with federal ES/DR programs and they are right. Im not really sure why you see so resistant to take FREE courses that will make you better at what you do. It seems that you want to do the bare minimum to just get by. Youre always saying we are good enough, we have the basics down. Actually many members dont have the basics and even if all of us did, as I have said before: Is there some reason we cant do better than that?  The laws requiring ICS/NIMS is going to be the standard, thats a forgone conclusion, so why not spend some of the time you spend posting and take a few classes,...that way when they are the law of the land that would stop you from getting into the game if you dont have them, you will already have them as completed in your CAP records and be good to go. I just go crazy when I hear people talk about the fact that  "good enough." Why would any of us want to just be good enough. If we want to truly become a force multiplier, we have to be better than good, we have to be as nearly perfect.

Personally I think CAP should put this into play now. If I were a unit commander I would say, you have 2 months to get ICS 100 and 200 or you are out of the game until you have proof that you have completed them.

[davedove]

Personally I think CAP should put this into play now. If I were a unit commander I would say, you have 2 months to get ICS 100 and 200 or you are out of the game until you have proof that you have completed them.

That is exactly what Maryland Wing is doing.  Everyone is required to have the classes, based on their specialty, by the end of September to retain their ratings.

[Ricochet13]

Yes, yes, NIMS is the "law", but as of at least a few months ago the actual standards for training for various SAR positions have NOT been approved and were only available in draft form.  More than likely the final versions will be similar to the drafts, but it would be stupid for CAP to take any significant actions until they are finalized. 

USCGAUX REQUIRES ICS 100 and 200 before you can even get on the water. With the entire ICS sequence freely available to anyone who wants/needs to take them, there just isn't any excuse.  I already have 100 and 200 under my belt, but I took them over a year ago and am going to take them online again to refresh my memory.

This is the kind of thing I am always talking about: people want to do good jobs, they say we are going to become obsolete if we don't get in line with federal ES/DR programs and they are right. I'm not really sure why you see so resistant to take FREE courses that will make you better at what you do. It seems that you want to do the bare minimum to just get by. You're always saying we are good enough, we have the basics down. Actually many members dint have the basics and even if all of us did, as I have said before: Is there some reason we cant do better than that?  The laws requiring ICS/NIMS is going to be the standard, thats a forgone conclusion, so why not spend some of the time you spend posting and take a few classes,...that way when they are the law of the land that would stop you from getting into the game if you dint have them, you will already have them as completed in your CAP records and be good to go. I just go crazy when I hear people talk about the fact that  "good enough." Why would any of us want to just be good enough. If we want to truly become a force multiplier, we have to be better than good, we have to be as nearly perfect.

Personally I think CAP should put this into play now. If I were a unit commander I would say, you have 2 months to get ICS 100 and 200 or you are out of the game until you have proof that you have completed them.

Find myself in agreement with SARMedTech once again.  New squadron members are completing ICS-100 and 200.  Consider it part of being an active member.  Will eventually look to completing ICS-700 after tackling ES qualifications and PD.  Wing has had numerous discussions regarding ICS-300 and 400 level training. 

And this is connected to the long-term viability of CAP.  Not going to wait for national to act.  We will educate outselves on our own initiative.  The worst that might happen is that we learn something, the best that might happen is the we help lead the way.  The "cheese" has been moved.

Also noted that "Sovereign Deed, a civil defense firm" has announced it is expanding into the area.  http://www.petoskeynews.com/articles/2007/08/14/news/news01.txt.  Don't know if this is good or bad from CAP's perspective, but things are changing. 

Point is, "do something" to enhance the role and position of CAP.  If one thing doesn't work out, try something else.  Become viable by acting viable.  Even a wrong action is often better than no action.  Don't consider that "stupid" at all.  Think that's exactly what IAWG did and the result appears to speak for itself.

[RiverAux]

I am all for what will likely become the new standards.  I'm just against CAP wasting a lot of time writing and redesigning regulations, task guides, etc. before they are actually finalized.  Should we do all that now based on what we THINK will be the standards and then have to redo them next year?  Just not an efficient use of resources. 

We will adopt the new standards and it will certainly keep us in the ballgame, but it won't be enough to overcome the fact that our services just will not be up to 21st century needs, capabilities or standards in 10-20 years. 

[SARMedTech]

Im not really that worried about Sovereign Deeds. Ive heard a little about them and Im not overly impressed with what I have heard so far. What they are trying to do is be the Blackwater of ES. What I have read and heard tells me that have that mercenary, "we'll save you if you can afford us" type of mindset.

One thing that we do need to think about is that these kinds of groups are going to be cropping up, competing for their piece of the post-9/11 world in which we leave. Im hearing while working on my MS in biosecurity and emergency management is that alot of these operations that are fly by night. As I say, the are trying to be the private military companies of the ES world. However, that doesnt mean that we wont have to compete with them. These kinds of business are showing up and thats all the more reason that we have to step up and be better than just good enough and not wait until there is a deadline put on us to get ICS, etc done. We have to be very proactive.  Blackwater hasnt put the US military out of business and they cant, but you see who the US government calls when it needs someone to handle messy jobs. Its just a fact of life in 21st century Emergency Services.  Its also all the more reason that we need develop a fully functional medical rescue branch of CAP, because if we dont, as sure as God made little green apples, we will find ourselves being edged out by SAR/DR/ES mercenaries.

[RiverAux]

I hadn't really thought of that angle...

There is a precedent -- CAP used to do all sorts of blood-transport flights for the Red Cross until we were more or less run out by private companies doing it for a profit.  Since the 80s, the Coast Guard and CG Aux basically have had to give first dibs on towing boats to private for-profit companies in areas where such companies exist. 

There are more and more private med-flight helicopter operations across the country and what county might not want to put one on retainer for SAR backup duty? 

[ammotrucker]

I am all for what will likely become the new standards.  I'm just against CAP wasting a lot of time writing and redesigning regulations, task guides, etc. before they are actually finalized.  Should we do all that now based on what we THINK will be the standards and then have to redo them next year?  Just not an efficient use of resources. 

We will adopt the new standards and it will certainly keep us in the ballgame, but it won't be enough to overcome the fact that our services just will not be up to 21st century needs, capabilities or standards in 10-20 years. 

If you all think that the requlations will include these points, then I for one do not see then need to postpone the taking of these courses.

You all seems to get caught up in the what the reg's say currently, even though you know the reg's will be updated at some point.

I'm new to CAP and this site. 

But, I believe that if your going to be here.  You might as well be doing something that will benefit the organization.

[afgeo4]

When the operational tempo slows down in the military world, you'll find that funding for operations slows down with it.

Sure we'll have plenty of Predator and Global Hawk birds around to phase CAP out of work, but where's the money gonna come from? These aircraft don't cost $100/hr to operate you know. USAF already knows this and that's why so many new Predators will go straight to ANG. After the war they will end up flying a few times a month like any other ANG aircraft. Sure, they could have additional roles for the a/c like border patrol and others, but I suspect those roles will be handed out to active duty units primarily.

You'll also see many UAV's taking place of manned systems and those will operate in training mode most of the time.

Remember, although Predators are tasked with many missions and hours, there are still relatively few aircraft around, so the deployment tempo with those units seems to be much higher than any other. That will slow down drastically as most of the second generation Predators come on line.

CAP will still fly DR and some SAR (little) and a lot of HS work in the future because of the same reasons that we fly today and have flown since 1941. We're CHEAP!