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CAP is not the military

Started by flyguy06, April 18, 2006, 08:24:06 AM

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flyguy06

I hear this phrase a lot. No, CAP is not the military but CAP is military like. In the cadet Program, we use the military as a tool to teach leadership. In the senior member world, we emulate the military for our organization and structure and rules of order.

People tend to use this phrase as a crutch to not obied by something or to relax a standard that CAP has put into place. As an example, members will say that theydont have to do something because its not the military and they do what they want to do. Whereas this is true, what overall effect does that have on mission accomplishment and success?

I believe CAP needs to be more military like. More sturcutred  Ther eneeds to be a naional standard on things les[ecially concerning cadets and that standard needs to be upheld by local level leaders. What happens is loacl commanders say they want to do things their way instead of the CAP-military way.

This is just a thought that came to me from what I have seen in the past.

dwb

I use the phrase in response to people who think we're training killers.

We're training leaders, and we're using the structure of the military model to do so.  In that context, it's not about "breaking them down" or some such notion.

Some people think they need to do their best Gunny Hartman impression when training cadets.  Gunny Hartman was training killers, so his approach is rightfully different than the one a CAP officer should take.  We're not the military, we don't even play one on TV, so we should stop trying to emulate the perceived ideas and behaviors gleaned from the entertainment industry.

That's my angle on the phrase, anyway.  I agree that standards should be set high and rigorously enforced, as long as those standards serve the greater purpose of producing "dynamic Americans and aerospace leaders".

mikeylikey

If you go back 50 or 60 so years, CAP was the military.  There is a book out there that I had come across my desk one day called "This is your Civil Air Patrol".  It was published in 1953, and was filled with narrative explanations of what the CAP does for the nation.  It stressed more than any other fact that the Active Duty Air Force ran the daily operations of the CAP.  It was the true Auxiliary of the Air Force, nothing what it is like today.  It made points that most operational missions were commanded by active duty AF Officers at different levels in the organization, and that absolute control was given the military.  It highlighted the course of events that occurred as a member joined the CAP, including an amended enlistment contract for senior members.
 
Moreover, if you go back to the CAP Basic Membership Manual printed in 1943, it aligned the CAP as an Auxiliary of the Army, under complete and absolute Army control.  Members enlisted in the CAP for the duration of the war, and were required to report for duty when the Army called.  CAP officers were appointed by the secretary of the Army, with CAP recommendation.  Some of you will most likely remember that the CAP was an instrument of the Office of Civil Defense, it was but, it was transfered to the Army until the War ended, and was never transfered back, not even when the war ended.   
 
It is really intersting to see the huge differences between CAP up to 1970 and CAP of today.  It seems there was a huge culture shift in both the CAP and the Military which led to the present organization.  History is a great thing, and the history that most CAP members read is the small "we spotted submarines" and nothing else.  The best source of CAP history is the member who was around during the 40's or 50's, and all too often are usually just thought of as the "old-timer" who does thing the "old" way.
What's up monkeys?

Hammer

Quote from: flyguy06 on April 18, 2006, 08:24:06 AM
~~~~~I believe CAP needs to be more military like. More sturcutred~~~~~

I second that.  I know that my Squadron is probably the least "military" of any CAP Squadron.  I went to Encampment in WVWG, and they were completely different from MDWG.

Becks

Wow I would love to get my hands on that book, sounds pretty nifty.

BBATW

hlhanna

Lets go back to the way it was then. This corporate mentality is killing CAP.

fyrfitrmedic

Quote from: hlhanna on April 18, 2006, 05:01:04 PM
Lets go back to the way it was then. This corporate mentality is killing CAP.

A slow, ugly death indeed.

Anyone else remember something about the results of 'exit interviews' conducted in a survey of lapsed members several years ago?
MAJ Tony Rowley CAP
Lansdowne PA USA
"The passion of rescue reveals the highest dynamic of the human soul." -- Kurt Hahn

Becks

Quote from: fyrfitrmedic on April 18, 2006, 06:47:56 PM
Quote from: hlhanna on April 18, 2006, 05:01:04 PM
Lets go back to the way it was then. This corporate mentality is killing CAP.

A slow, ugly death indeed.

Anyone else remember something about the results of 'exit interviews' conducted in a survey of lapsed members several years ago?

No, mind sharing?

BBATW

Matt

the Exit interviews basically, summed up said that people didn't have meaningful enough jobs, and/or they didn't care for the political side of the house, which CAP is quickly becomming.

FFM, please let me know if I'm warm or cold on that response....
<a href=mailto:mkopp@ncr.cap.gov> Matthew Kopp</a>, Maj, CAP
Director of Information Technology
<a href=https://www.ncrcap.us.org> North Central Region</a>

Lamh Dearg

"....Some people think they need to do their best Gunny Hartman impression when training cadets.  Gunny Hartman was training killers, so his approach is rightfully different than the one a CAP officer should take.  We're not the military, we don't even play one on TV, so we should stop trying to emulate the perceived ideas and behaviors gleaned from the entertainment industry...."

Agreed that we shouldn't try and emulate Gunny Hartman, and anyway FMJ is not representative of today's Boot Camps either; remember that is dramatizing events of upwards of forty years ago.

I've been aboard Great Lakes RTC (Navy Boot Camp) many times, and one thing you don't hear much of is screaming and shouting by the RDCs - their philosophy is that there are better ways to get the point across, whatever point that may be.

Strict & disciplined - yes; Gunny Hartman - by no means!

Earhart1971

No CAP is not the (the Military) or the Air Force, and we don't want to be the Air Force or the Military.

Our Corporate Structure, helps CAP stay CAP not turn into something like JROTC.

Now, that said, having good uniform discipline and customs of the military are good, and I am all for sharp uniforms and seniors that meet height to weight standards.

CAP has its own traditions, and I'd rather be in control of our own Uniform and not the Air Force trying to make us less of an embarrassment to them, by the changing the color of rank insignia and such.

Believe me I have been there at Maxwell AFB for different functions and heard the AF Personnel attending College, sitting in the Chow Halls talking down CAP Seniors in Uniform.

I did point out to one Capt, that the Senior he was referring to at the time was wearing a certain ribbon on his uniform (Purple Heart) and I said to him, you probably wont be wearing a uniform at his age or volunteering, you will be on the golf course somewhere. I was courteous, but the Senior he was referring was a Normandy Vet.

Air Force seems to at times exert control and, take money away, change the uniform, do IG investigations.

We have a National Commander now that believes in CAP as its own entity, not simply an Auxillary of the Air Force.









mikeylikey

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 18, 2006, 11:18:46 PM
No CAP is not the (the Military) or the Air Force, and we don't want to be the Air Force or the Military...
We have a National Commander now that believes in CAP as its own entity, not simply an Auxiliary of the Air Force.

If thats the case, he sure went after the money that was cut from the budget.  He went before the AF and the Fed Gov't and repeatedly stressed how vital we were to both the AF as an auxiliary and the Federal Government.  You referenced tradition, the CAP tradition is its very close ties with the military.  Once again I stress the importance of investigating history.  The Air Force believes in the CAP, so much so that they allow reservists the opportunity to accrue retirement points when acting as liaison between the military and CAP.  Our organization is proving itself to be a vital government asset in the post- 9/11 world, and I see the AF take much credit for it's "auxiliary".
What's up monkeys?

Earhart1971

Quote from: mikeylikey on April 18, 2006, 11:49:20 PM
Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 18, 2006, 11:18:46 PM
No CAP is not the (the Military) or the Air Force, and we don't want to be the Air Force or the Military...
We have a National Commander now that believes in CAP as its own entity, not simply an Auxiliary of the Air Force.

If thats the case, he sure went after the money that was cut from the budget.  He went before the AF and the Fed Gov't and repeatedly stressed how vital we were to both the AF as an auxiliary and the Federal Government.  You referenced tradition, the CAP tradition is its very close ties with the military.  Once again I stress the importance of investigating history.  The Air Force believes in the CAP, so much so that they allow reservists the opportunity to accrue retirement points when acting as liaison between the military and CAP.  Our organization is proving itself to be a vital government asset in the post- 9/11 world, and I see the AF take much credit for it's "auxiliary".

Not in disagreement at all, (about CAP and how we are vital), this is my point, if we are vital, why did the Air Force CUT OUR BUDGET?

The Air Force is less than helpful, and all for mission expansion at the same time, not adding any money into the scenario, but taking it away.

The National Commander went after the money (this is correct), and got it back.

He did not get the money back from the Air Force, the Air Force wanted to keep the money.

He went over the heads of the Air Force and the Pentagonies, and went straight to Congress.


If you want my opinion, CAP is underfunded by about 200 million Dollars a year.

shorning

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 19, 2006, 12:12:42 AM
...why did the Air Force CUT OUR BUDGET?

That's simple.  The Air Force had a budget cut across the board.  Every AF program took some kind of a hit.  The AF only gets so much money and has to rack-n-stack it's priorities.  Last I checked we still had troops in Afghanistan and Iraq (plus "other" locations).  Not to mention all the other "operational" aspect the AF has to fund.  So CAP doesn't exactly rank as high on the list as AF squadrons.

Still think the AF should give CAP more funding?  Talk to your Congressman.  But I'm curious, where should they take money from in order to give it to CAP?

Earhart1971

#14
Quote from: shorning on April 19, 2006, 12:30:27 AM
Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 19, 2006, 12:12:42 AM
...why did the Air Force CUT OUR BUDGET?

That's simple.  The Air Force had a budget cut across the board.  Every AF program took some kind of a hit.  The AF only gets so much money and has to rack-n-stack it's priorities.  Last I checked we still had troops in Afghanistan and Iraq (plus "other" locations).  Not to mention all the other "operational" aspect the AF has to fund.  So CAP doesn't exactly rank as high on the list as AF squadrons.

Still think the AF should give CAP more funding?  Talk to your Congressman.  But I'm curious, where should they take money from in order to give it to CAP?

First of all, the Air Force just found out, via MajGen. Pineda, that CAP's money, is CAP's money, it does not belong to the Air Force.

It belongs to CAP and it is written into the appropriations by Congress, therefore, they (the Air Force) have no power to give or take away our money, we are funded by Congress, not the Air Force.

We are not a LINE ITEM in the Air Force Budget that the Air Force can just pencil out.

Besides that, do a little homework yourself, figure in all the hours we fly per year in support of Air Force Missions, 100,000 to 120,000 per year.

Then take those hours and multiply them by the hourly coast of a H-60, or a C-130, or any other non CAP, Air Force Aircraft.  I would say the cheapest aircraft is $500 an hour, to as high as $4000 per hour, with out considering crew pay and benefits.

I think you will find that we SAVE the Air Force more money than we cost, on a very wide multiple.  I think we save the Air Force about 300 Million to 500 million per year.

So, if Congress were smart they would fund us better and allow us to save even more money for the Air Force.

Lets get a little more strong on exactly what we do and the economic benefits to our Country.

CAP saves more than lives, we save teenagers, we save money, we produce leaders, and there is no reason to not fund CAP more, it makes sense on every level.

LETS GET STRONG with the PROGRAM!




shorning

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 19, 2006, 01:33:14 AM


That's really nice post, but not really a workable solution.  There isn't an unlimited supply of money out there.  I ask again:  who's going to pay?  Who are your going to take money from in order to fund CAP?

fyrfitrmedic

Quote from: Matt on April 18, 2006, 09:17:57 PM
the Exit interviews basically, summed up said that people didn't have meaningful enough jobs, and/or they didn't care for the political side of the house, which CAP is quickly becomming.

FFM, please let me know if I'm warm or cold on that response....

Spot-on, actually. If I remember correctly, a number of former cadets who were surveyed felt that they weren't challenged enough.
MAJ Tony Rowley CAP
Lansdowne PA USA
"The passion of rescue reveals the highest dynamic of the human soul." -- Kurt Hahn

Earhart1971

Quote from: shorning on April 19, 2006, 01:48:48 AM
Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 19, 2006, 01:33:14 AM


That's really nice post, but not really a workable solution.  There isn't an unlimited supply of money out there.  I ask again:  who's going to pay?  Who are your going to take money from in order to fund CAP?

I really did not offer a solution on this thread, all I did was point out that we save the US Tax Payers Multi Millions every year, and it might be nice if they added more money to CAP Operating Funds, because of the great job we do, and my theory is a better funded CAP, saves the US Taxpayer more money.

I laid out some ideas, you are a L/Col, why don't you come up with some ideas of your own.

You guys wearing the Silver Oaks, need to do a little thinking outside the box.  Read the posting on the Sheriff Dept thread and you will get some of the ideas I have.


Speaking of money, how many rich folk in Hawaii have you asked about funding your local Squadrons?




Westernslope

#18
.

shorning

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 19, 2006, 03:54:06 AM
I laid out some ideas, you are a L/Col, why don't you come up with some ideas of your own.

You were the one complaining about the budget woes.  Identifying a problem without offering a solution doesn't do anyone any good.  So...where should the money come from?

Additionally, I don't believe I've talked about my ideas.  I'm not soliciting you for ideas.  I'm trying to get you to apply a little critical thinking to the situation and work the problem through.  So far we have one issue, but not all of them, nor do we have possible solutions.  However, you're still avoiding my question.

As an aside, it's "Lt Col".  I realize that the services did things different at one point, but we should keep ourselves up-to-date and make sure we're doing things the correct way.  Using the correct terminology and the like helps insure others understand what we're talking about.

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 19, 2006, 03:54:06 AM
You guys wearing the Silver Oaks, need to do a little thinking outside the box. 

Actually, all members do.  Blaming it on or leaving it up to Lt Col's or higher is a non-starter.  Besides, how do you know what I think?  I haven't offered my views of our budget situation.  So instead of lecturing me on "thinking outside the box", perhaps you can answer my question:  where should the money come from?  In other words, who's going to pay?

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 19, 2006, 03:54:06 AM
Read the posting on the Sheriff Dept thread and you will get some of the ideas I have.

I did and I've posted my comments on that idea.  That might be a solution for one squadron, but it certainly doesn't help us nationally.  But it is an idea.

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 19, 2006, 03:54:06 AM
Speaking of money, how many rich folk in Hawaii have you asked about funding your local Squadrons?

Again, I don't think I've discussed my activities.  That's called "transference".  Instead of answering my questions, you're making it about what I'm doing.  You've brought up several items for discussion.  So I'm trying to discuss them with you.  Instead you're avoiding my questions.  You're simply offering up problems without solutions.  In this case, budget solutions for CAP...nationally.  Doesn't seem like it should be that hard.

Becks

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 19, 2006, 03:54:06 AM
Quote from: shorning on April 19, 2006, 01:48:48 AM
Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 19, 2006, 01:33:14 AM


That's really nice post, but not really a workable solution.  There isn't an unlimited supply of money out there.  I ask again:  who's going to pay?  Who are your going to take money from in order to fund CAP?

I really did not offer a solution on this thread, all I did was point out that we save the US Tax Payers Multi Millions every year, and it might be nice if they added more money to CAP Operating Funds, because of the great job we do, and my theory is a better funded CAP, saves the US Taxpayer more money.

I laid out some ideas, you are a L/Col, why don't you come up with some ideas of your own.

You guys wearing the Silver Oaks, need to do a little thinking outside the box.  Read the posting on the Sheriff Dept thread and you will get some of the ideas I have.


Speaking of money, how many rich folk in Hawaii have you asked about funding your local Squadrons?



We all know that due to recent budget cuts money for CAP is not what it used to be, theres no point beating around the bush. While I agree it would be nice if the Govt kicked a few more dollars our way its the sad truth that we just dont hit very high on the priority list, and given that it is wartime we probably wont any time soon.  The beauty of CAP is that we can ask those rich people for funding (be they in Hawaii or elsewhere).  There is very little we can do about increasing our budget and I agree with the LtCol that the money has to come from somewhere, it wont just appear from the fed. Thus the responsibility falls to the Region, wing, Sqdn etc to find funding and improvise (youre idea regarding the sherrif dep for example). 

BBATW

Earhart1971

You sound like a Msgt, that cannot come up with any ideas, and not a LC.

And you seem not to understand my point.

A. We SAVE the Taxpayers money, HALF A BILLION.

B. The Savings could be increased, I believe, IF CAP was better funded.

Now, if you want to CONFINE yourself to narrow mindness, go ahead.

But you are spending a LOT of your energy to shoot down my ideas.

And you have none of your own.


Becks

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 19, 2006, 05:59:53 AM
You sound like a Msgt

And this has bearing on the discussion how?

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 19, 2006, 05:59:53 AM

And you seem not to understand my point.

A. We SAVE the Taxpayers money, HALF A BILLION.

B. The Savings could be increased, I believe, IF CAP was better funded.


Your point you bring up is correct, we do save the taxpayers a hefty sum of money, so what do you presume to do?  Reinvest the money that we save them back into CAP, or get the funding from another source?  Youre right that we would save more by being more effective by having better funding, but like we've been saying all along where do you propose this money comes from.  And before you get upset or take my reply as a jest I want to assure that in no way am I criticizing you, but rather asking you to elaborate your thoughts.  The PD/CAP program was good, but can only work for so many squadrons.

BBATW

Earhart1971

Quote from: Becks on April 19, 2006, 05:59:24 AM
Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 19, 2006, 03:54:06 AM
Quote from: shorning on April 19, 2006, 01:48:48 AM
Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 19, 2006, 01:33:14 AM


That's really nice post, but not really a workable solution.  There isn't an unlimited supply of money out there.  I ask again:  who's going to pay?  Who are your going to take money from in order to fund CAP?

I really did not offer a solution on this thread, all I did was point out that we save the US Tax Payers Multi Millions every year, and it might be nice if they added more money to CAP Operating Funds, because of the great job we do, and my theory is a better funded CAP, saves the US Taxpayer more money.

I laid out some ideas, you are a L/Col, why don't you come up with some ideas of your own.

You guys wearing the Silver Oaks, need to do a little thinking outside the box.  Read the posting on the Sheriff Dept thread and you will get some of the ideas I have.


Speaking of money, how many rich folk in Hawaii have you asked about funding your local Squadrons?



We all know that due to recent budget cuts money for CAP is not what it used to be, theres no point beating around the bush. While I agree it would be nice if the Govt kicked a few more dollars our way its the sad truth that we just dont hit very high on the priority list, and given that it is wartime we probably wont any time soon.  The beauty of CAP is that we can ask those rich people for funding (be they in Hawaii or elsewhere).  There is very little we can do about increasing our budget and I agree with the LtCol that the money has to come from somewhere, it wont just appear from the fed. Thus the responsibility falls to the Region, wing, Sqdn etc to find funding and improvise (youre idea regarding the sherrif dep for example).  Youd be amazed at what a few carwashes and recruitment drives can do  ;D

This is the attitude that will keep CAP small.

And it goes back to, we don't deserve more money.

Or just the misunderstanding, of how much we do save the Taxpayers of the United States.

Sorry, I am not buying into that attitude.

Who benefits from CAP Service?

The Taxpayers of the this Country.

What could be done is simply pay CAP 10% of the yearly SAVINGS calculated by the number of hours flown.

Also the number of Ground Team hours.

That alone would give CAP a 50% increase in funding.

Earhart1971

Quote from: Becks on April 19, 2006, 06:07:39 AM
Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 19, 2006, 05:59:53 AM
You sound like a Msgt

And this has bearing on the discussion how?

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 19, 2006, 05:59:53 AM

And you seem not to understand my point.

A. We SAVE the Taxpayers money, HALF A BILLION.

B. The Savings could be increased, I believe, IF CAP was better funded.


Your point you bring up is correct, we do save the taxpayers a hefty sum of money, so what do you presume to do?  Reinvest the money that we save them back into CAP, or get the funding from another source?  Youre right that we would save more by being more effective by having better funding, but like we've been saying all along where do you propose this money comes from.  And before you get upset or take my reply as a jest I want to assure that in no way am I criticizing you, but rather asking you to elaborate your thoughts.  The PD/CAP program was good, but can only work for so many squadrons.

The money is coming from the United States Budget, and I could find the money in a NEW YORK minute.

How about cutting one F-22 out of the budget?

We have about 5% increase in money to the Government every year, put the brakes on a loser program and fund a winning program.

But if I were turned loose, I could find the money in the budget to do it.

But follow me on this, money is tight, but what if CAP was not there to do Searches anymore, the Air Force and the Country would have to spend about a half billion to maybe a Billion to replace 50,000 members with no salary costs and fly a lot more expensive Aircraft.

I assure you if I where the CZAR of the Budget, I could come up with 200 million for CAP.




shorning

#25
Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 19, 2006, 05:59:53 AM
A. We SAVE the Taxpayers money, HALF A BILLION.

We don't save them squat.  It's merely money not spent.  That's different than saving money.  It's money that doesn't exist in the first place.  Or, rather, would have to come out of some other pot thereby shortchanging some other program.  So what do we choose?  What can be sacrificed?

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 19, 2006, 05:59:53 AMB. The Savings could be increased, I believe, IF CAP was better funded.

So we're going to save more money by spending more money?  Great.  Where is that funding going to come from?  You've offered no solutions other than to say "we should get more money". 

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 19, 2006, 05:59:53 AM
Now, if you want to CONFINE yourself to narrow mindness, go ahead.

But you are spending a LOT of your energy to shoot down my ideas.

I haven't shot down a thing.  I asked were would the funding come from.  We're dealing with finite resources.  Gone are the days of endless pits of monies.  The funding has to come from somewhere.  So where?  Whose budget do we cut?

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 19, 2006, 05:59:53 AM
And you have none of your own.

Jerry, that's pathetic.  Again, just because I haven't discussed my solutions doesn't mean I don't have any to offer.  So...should I just side with you and say the world would be a better place if CAP would just get more money?  Can't you stand people to have a counterpoint to yours?  Either way, you're still avoiding my questions.  Apparently you're just a complainer and part of the problem not a solution.


Earhart1971

I just told you where, the money is coming from, DROP 1 F-22, a year out of production.

200 million is nothing, its a tip of the hat to CAP.


shorning

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 19, 2006, 06:25:34 AM
The money is coming from the United States Budget, and I could find the money in a NEW YORK minute.

Oh the budget!  Of course.  So which programs get cut to fund CAP?  Or should we raise taxes?

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 19, 2006, 06:25:34 AM
How about cutting one F-22 out of the budget?

Wow, talk about narrow-minded!  Okay, how many more people should the Air Force draw down in order to offset the cost?  Or should the AF cut "quality of life" funding?  What about just not doing improvements to base facilities?  You see, the AF is already facing its own hard choices.  Regardless, that's an entirely different "pot" of money.  It's not O&M funding.  So even if the AF cut one Raptor, they still could spend that money on CAP flight ops.  That's by Congressional mandate.

Earhart1971

Steve, you seem to think the world will end if the status quo budget is not mantained?

The budget changes on a yearly basis, you shift money where it is needed, or the money is shifted to political clout.

If CAP doesn't ask, then CAP doesn't get, the National Commander just proved a point, if we ask the right people things can happen.

If I wanted to increase government income, I would lower taxes, it has worked everytime it has been tried. 

With lower taxes more people comply and pay taxes, or how about take,
.001 out of the existing Federal Gas Tax for Avgas and spend it on CAP, even .0001 would work.


And yes, I could find the money in the Air Force Budget, and a few other budgets spread across the government.

But enough of answering your questions, what Ideas do you have?

Tell me what you discussed about how to improve CAP at your Region Staff Course?










shorning

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 19, 2006, 08:09:27 AM
Steve, you seem to think the world will end if the status quo budget is not mantained?

Not at all, Jerry.  The money has to come from somewhere.  You can't just will it to happen. 

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 19, 2006, 08:09:27 AM
The budget changes on a yearly basis, you shift money where it is needed, or the money is shifted to political clout.

If CAP doesn't ask, then CAP doesn't get, the National Commander just proved a point, if we ask the right people things can happen.

If I wanted to increase government income, I would lower taxes, it has worked everytime it has been tried. 

With lower taxes more people comply and pay taxes, or how about take,
.001 out of the existing Federal Gas Tax for Avgas and spend it on CAP, even .0001 would work.


And yes, I could find the money in the Air Force Budget, and a few other budgets spread across the government.

"I could find the money"?  That's your solution?  So you're really not increasing anyone's budget.  You're just shifting who gets shorted every year?  That's not really a fix.  That's just putting a Band-aid on an avulsion.


Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 19, 2006, 08:09:27 AM
But enough of answering your questions, what Ideas do you have?

Well, you really haven't, so no loss there.  But, that's not what this thread is about.  We've already derailed it enough.  Perhaps one of the mods can move the relevant parts to a new thread?  Whatevah?  Pylon?  Or you could start a thread.

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 19, 2006, 08:09:27 AM
Tell me what you discussed about how to improve CAP at your Region Staff Course?

You assume that was part of the curriculum when I went through RSC.  The RSC curriculum has been updated at least once since I went and not all Regions run them the same in the first place.  But again, that's not what this thread is about.  So start a second thread and everyone can discuss it.


----------------------

Folks, sorry for derailing the thread. :-\  I'll now let you get back to your regularily scheduled topic.

Cheers,

dwb

What we have here is a failure to communicate.  :-\

Earhart1971 is saying that more funding to CAP would allow it to do more, and provide better services than the ones it is already providing, and that the services CAP provides are cheaper than any alternative solution.  It would behoove the federal government, and the Air Force, to fund us better.  Which, for the most part, is probably true.

shorning is saying that money is a finite resource, and given the government's rather clear spending priorities, and the 200 years of institutional inertia we'd have to overcome to change the budget process, it's not likely that CAP will just all of a sudden get money from Uncle Sam, at least, not without robbing Peter to pay Pineda.  This is also true.

At this point, the argument has reached something that looks like a scene from The Naked Gun, when Drebin is in a shoot out with someone five feet away, they keep missing, and, when they run out of ammo, they just chuck the guns at each other.

Guys, you're both right.  More funding would always be great, though there is probably a law of diminishing returns at work here; the USAF gets what they want out of us, and the hassle of getting more money would probably not be rewarded in the magnitude of the additional benefits CAP could provide.

So, more money = good, but in addition to budget woes across the board, the amount of additional capabilities we could provide may also exceed the USAF's desire to actually have said capabilities.

mikeylikey

Anyway, instead of fighting about where money comes from and how we could get more, wouldn't it be more worthwhile to look at how CAP as a Corporation spends that money.  I looked at the 2005 end of year report, and read over the CAP budget.  Where can I go to see the exact line items under each section.  Shouldn't that be published since CAP is a Corporation?  I mean specifics, on how much was paid to the Executive Director, and how much was paid for maintenance on water fountains at National, etc.
What's up monkeys?

lordmonar

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 19, 2006, 05:59:53 AM
You sound like a MSgt, that cannot come up with any ideas, and not a LC.

And you seem not to understand my point.

A. We SAVE the Taxpayers money, HALF A BILLION.

B. The Savings could be increased, I believe, IF CAP was better funded.

Now, if you want to CONFINE yourself to narrow mindness, go ahead.

But you are spending a LOT of your energy to shoot down my ideas.

And you have none of your own.



Hold on there TEX!  MSgt Shorning/Lt Col Shorning has been trying to get you to see that there is NO MONEY TO BE HAD.  Yes we save the tax payers billions....so what.  We did not get as much money this year as we wanted.  That is the bottom line.  It is not the Air Forces fault that money is short.  It is Congress's.  Seeing as how the NATIONAL MONEY is not our problem why do we need to propose solutions?  We can solve money problems for our local units but not the problems at National. 

That is NOT because we are MSgts....it is because we are at local units.

Now you are lamenting how the Air Force is trying screw over CAP.....well the Air Force is looking to ax 40K people in the next six years.  They are cutting everyones budgets, flying hours are down, maintenance budgets are cut, new construction has been slipped.  The Air Force is doing all it can to spread its money around and the DID give some of it to CAP, just not as much as we wanted.

Okay...you say we can save more money by getting better funded....that may be true....so what program should the military cut?

Pay raises?  Building Maintenance?  UAV research?  O&M funding?  Come one....you are the one making statements with not proposed solution.  Which vital military program that just got it's budget cut do you want to cut further so CAP can fully fund it's mission?

Finally......If you think NCO's can't think for themselves then you are sadly mistaken, you are showing disrespect to the back bone of the USAF and all military services.

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

lordmonar

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 19, 2006, 06:08:33 AM
Quote from: Becks on April 19, 2006, 05:59:24 AM
We all know that due to recent budget cuts money for CAP is not what it used to be, theres no point beating around the bush. While I agree it would be nice if the Govt kicked a few more dollars our way its the sad truth that we just don't hit very high on the priority list, and given that it is wartime we probably wont any time soon.  The beauty of CAP is that we can ask those rich people for funding (be they in Hawaii or elsewhere).  There is very little we can do about increasing our budget and I agree with the LtCol that the money has to come from somewhere, it wont just appear from the fed. Thus the responsibility falls to the Region, wing, Sqdn etc to find funding and improvise (youre idea regarding the sherrif dep for example).  Youd be amazed at what a few carwashes and recruitment drives can do  ;D

This is the attitude that will keep CAP small.

And it goes back to, we don't deserve more money.

Or just the misunderstanding, of how much we do save the Taxpayers of the United States.

Sorry, I am not buying into that attitude.

Who benefits from CAP Service?

The Taxpayers of the this Country.

What could be done is simply pay CAP 10% of the yearly SAVINGS calculated by the number of hours flown.

Also the number of Ground Team hours.

That alone would give CAP a 50% increase in funding.

Where exactly does this "10% saving" come from?  When you save federal money it is just spent elsewhere.  Those billions you say we save is from the fact that the military did NOT BUY the airframes in the first place.  It is a virtual savings not a real money in the bank gathering interest savings.

Here I will propose a solution.....why don't we (CAP) use some of our corporate funds and hire some professional fundraiser to gather the needed funding from private sources?  The only problem with this solution is that we will have to take real money from some of our programs to support it.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

lordmonar

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 19, 2006, 06:25:34 AM
The money is coming from the United States Budget, and I could find the money in a NEW YORK minute.

How about cutting one F-22 out of the budget?

We have about 5% increase in money to the Government every year, put the brakes on a loser program and fund a winning program.

But if I were turned loose, I could find the money in the budget to do it.

But follow me on this, money is tight, but what if CAP was not there to do Searches anymore, the Air Force and the Country would have to spend about a half billion to maybe a Billion to replace 50,000 members with no salary costs and fly a lot more expensive Aircraft.

I assure you if I where the CZAR of the Budget, I could come up with 200 million for CAP.

Right.....and what about the need of the Air Force to field a new fighter force?  The F-22's have already been cut down from the original order of 438 has been reduced to 339.  Cutting another one is depriving the Air Force and the Tax Payers we protect of the necessary tools to do our job.

Anyone can sit around and say if "If I were CZAR" such and such would happen.  But lets face it....there is no one person who has that power in the United States.   The budget is approved by congress and the DoD is competing with lots of other departments to fund a lot of requirements.  Sure....if I had the power I would make sure that CAP got funded....but what about all the other things I would have to make sure got funded?

Your statement only points out that you have no idea about the budget process.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Becks

Just out of curiosity, how much does CAP spend on the free uniform voucher for cadets?  Im not saying we should cut it, im just interested in a figure please.  :)

BBATW

jacklumanog

Quote from: justin_bailey on April 18, 2006, 12:18:27 PM
Some people think they need to do their best Gunny Hartman impression when training cadets.

Alright, Full Metal Jacket!  I've never seen the "Gunny Hartman" treatment with the cadets in my squadron, but based on some of the photos I've seen up on cadetstuff.org, there seem to be a few instances of cadet leadership living the dream of being a drill instructor.

Just be yourself already and use the voice that God and your relatives gave you. 

Sorry for the disjointed thought here... just sharing my 2 cents.
Ch, Lt Col Jon I. Lumanog, CAP
Special Assistant to the National Chief of Chaplains for Diversity of Ministry

Major_Chuck

Cutting a F-22 from the budget is not an option.  If you want to save the tax payers some money as Budget Czar then go for a line item veto.

Cut out pork from the budget as a whole, starting with the salaries and perks of many of our esteemed congressmen.  You can find wasteful projects through out the entire budget of the United States.  Zeroing in on a national defense item is the wrong move.

Chuck Cranford
SGT, TNCO VA OCS
Virginia Army National Guard

Al Sayre

If we could cut half the pork out of the budget, we'd have a surplus.  The"bridge to nowhere" immediately comes to mind.  Also a lot of the NEA grants, and paying some college professors to study cow flatulence or the life cycle of the East Bumfield water dwelling mole cricket of which there are only 300 left- Just get a can of bug spray for $3.00 and finish them off.
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

CaptPhoenix

I must agree with FlyGuy06. If you "volunteered"; if you wear the uniform, and if YOU made the choice, then you'd better "walk-the-walk". Don't whine about "I won't do this or that 'cause I'm only a "volunteer". If you use that excuse, take a look at the uniform you're wearing. If you still can't get squared-away, well......don't let the door hit you in the you-know-what, on the way OUT!

Earhart1971

Quote from: lordmonar on April 19, 2006, 02:05:33 PM
Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 19, 2006, 06:08:33 AM
Quote from: Becks on April 19, 2006, 05:59:24 AM
We all know that due to recent budget cuts money for CAP is not what it used to be, theres no point beating around the bush. While I agree it would be nice if the Govt kicked a few more dollars our way its the sad truth that we just don't hit very high on the priority list, and given that it is wartime we probably wont any time soon.  The beauty of CAP is that we can ask those rich people for funding (be they in Hawaii or elsewhere).  There is very little we can do about increasing our budget and I agree with the LtCol that the money has to come from somewhere, it wont just appear from the fed. Thus the responsibility falls to the Region, wing, Sqdn etc to find funding and improvise (youre idea regarding the sherrif dep for example).  Youd be amazed at what a few carwashes and recruitment drives can do  ;D

This is the attitude that will keep CAP small.

And it goes back to, we don't deserve more money.

Or just the misunderstanding, of how much we do save the Taxpayers of the United States.

Sorry, I am not buying into that attitude.

Who benefits from CAP Service?

The Taxpayers of the this Country.

What could be done is simply pay CAP 10% of the yearly SAVINGS calculated by the number of hours flown.

Also the number of Ground Team hours.

That alone would give CAP a 50% increase in funding.

Its been tried, there have been some job postings for "Fund Raiser" types at National HQ in the past.

It all appeared to fall in a black hole, I have heard nothing about any major contributions.

It may be hard to fund raise at National HQ, now at the local level, if you can point to a Flight of Cadets and get the right rich person, they have been known to donate.

Naples Squadron has a building fully paid for by donors, so does Lake County Squadron.

On the National Level, I think it would work better just to have someone in Washington D.C. that goes to the Congress at Budget Time and lobbies
for CAP.  I think this has been done in the past, to maintain the budget as is.

The 10%.


Where exactly does this "10% saving" come from?  When you save federal money it is just spent elsewhere.  Those billions you say we save is from the fact that the military did NOT BUY the airframes in the first place.  It is a virtual savings not a real money in the bank gathering interest savings.

Here I will propose a solution.....why don't we (CAP) use some of our corporate funds and hire some professional fundraiser to gather the needed funding from private sources?  The only problem with this solution is that we will have to take real money from some of our programs to support it.

10%

The 500 million saved is spent elsewhere, and yes it is virtual, but the money saved is REAL!

If you don't have to fire up a H-60, or a C-130 to fly search missions, you can fly other Air Force Missions, and Half a Billion buys a lot of other hours on Air Force Aircraft. ITS AS REAL AS THE MONEY in your WALLET.

I think you misunderstood the 10%, what I meant is IF, CAP saves the Government Half a Billion or 500 million per year in Search Cost, why not pay CAP a 10% bonus for doing so? That would be 50 Million Dollars a year.

Now if I were at National HQ I would sure calculate the exact figure every year and promote that figure in congress.

And my question again, spread across the ENTIRE SPECTRUM of Federal Budget, I could find money.

Where I would look, or have Congressman look is:

Youth Programs that obviously do not work

Anti Drug Programs that may not work

Anti Gang Programs

Education Programs

Volunteer Funding from the Fed and Homeland Security Funds.

out of all that could we find money.

Now lets take a trip in the time machine, if we got more money what would the goals be?

A. Cadet Program - increase the Middle School Program

B. Increase Recruiting - Cadets - Goal 100,000 Cadets in the next few years.

C. Cadets and a successful Cadet program - Attracts x- Cadets and more Seniors back in the Program.

D. Assets - will attract all types of members.

I would set a long term goal of having half a million members, that equals a Lot of Votes, and political clout.

ABOUT NATIONAL HQ FUND Raising.

I have seen job postings for National Fund Raiser or  Sponsor Development, at Maxwell.

Its a black hole, I have heard nothing since, anybody heard anything more?

On the National Level, I think it would work better just to have someone in Washington D.C. that goes to the Congressmen and women and lobbies them.








lordmonar

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 20, 2006, 11:55:00 PM
The 500 million saved is spent elsewhere, and yes it is virtual, but the money saved is REAL!

No...the 500$M we saved the Air Force is only the operating cost of the nonexistent fleet of air craft needed to fly homeland SAR missions.  It's not like the Air Force has the $500M sitting in a bank instead of paying gas bills.  You cannot get 10% of money that does not exist.  To give us the $50M funding the Air Force would have to cut $50M from some other project, mission, benefit or Air Frame that actually need to field. 

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 20, 2006, 11:55:00 PM

If you don't have to fire up a H-60, or a C-130 to fly search missions, you can fly other Air Force Missions, and Half a Billion buys a lot of other hours on Air Force Aircraft. ITS AS REAL AS THE MONEY in your WALLET.

Again....the $500M was never allocated....it cannot be diverted to anything...because it never existed.  It is only a dollar figure estimate of the contribution that CAP gives to the Air Force.  There is REAL SAVINGS that can be used for other purposes.

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 20, 2006, 11:55:00 PM
I think you misunderstood the 10%, what I meant is IF, CAP saves the Government Half a Billion or 500 million per year in Search Cost, why not pay CAP a 10% bonus for doing so? That would be 50 Million Dollars a year.

Because the Government is already getting that saving by paying CAP $31.5M why would they pay more for the same service?

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 20, 2006, 11:55:00 PM
Where I would look, or have Congressman look is:

Youth Programs that obviously do not work

Anti Drug Programs that may not work

Anti Gang Programs

Education Programs

Volunteer Funding from the Fed and Homeland Security Funds.

out of all that could we find money.

So....you will kill other useful programs because you need $50M?  Maybe these programs would work better if they had more money too?  Do you see where I am going with this?

Everyone has their pet project that is "essential" to the country and their districts.....but of course....everyones essential project is just another name for pork.

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 20, 2006, 11:55:00 PM
Now lets take a trip in the time machine, if we got more money what would the goals be?

A. Cadet Program - increase the Middle School Program

B. Increase Recruiting - Cadets - Goal 100,000 Cadets in the next few years.

C. Cadets and a successful Cadet program - Attracts x- Cadets and more Seniors back in the Program.

That's nice and all.....however......you just spent all that money that was supposed to go to Emergency Services on your cadet program!

You cannot say....hay! We do great Emergency Service we save you $500M from the Defense Budget every year!  Give us $50M more and we can give you an even bigger savings by spending it on improving cadet programs for an age group that cannot do ES missions, and recruiting more cadet (who also cannot do ES missions) and getting more members to create and run this really great Cadet Program (who cannot do ES missions).

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 20, 2006, 11:55:00 PM
D. Assets - will attract all types of members.

What sort of assets are we talking about?  More trucks?  I read somewhere that CAP has over 1000 trucks, vans , and utility vehicles!  That is something like 200 per Wing!

If we bought more Air Planes how would that make us more able to fly our ES mission?  Have we been missing missions because there were no aircraft available for the search?  If we don't NEED the airframes for the mission then we don't need them. 

PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Earhart1971

Capt Harris:

I read through your replies.

Question: Your are a member of Civil Air Patrol, Why would you  WORRY ahead of time about another program being cut, to give money to CAP?

Why would you be overtly concerned about such a prospect?

I believe there are probably lots of programs that PRODUCE no tangible Benefits, CAP produces Tangible Benefits to the public good.

Its not in our power to cut, its in the Hands of the House Appropriations Committee, and it would be a function of how well we can present CAP to the Congress.  The National Commander has laid some ground work in that area.
<p>
The programs that don't work are cut all the time, so I feel your loyalty is a little misguided, why not be a proponent of CAP, the Organization you are part of?
<p>
And the Air Force is not giving us the money, the CAP is getting the money from Congress.
<p>
The Air Force is the prime beneficiary of our cost effective search program.
<p>
Also, you asked why would the Government Pay More for the same service?
<p>
The Congress and the Representatives there, probably have never been made aware, of what we do, and how much we save them.
<p>
Low expectations on the part of CAP members, produce no growth, lets change the mind set.
<p>
Would you like CAP to be a rather small group of 50,000 spread over 50 states, thats about 1000 per state, or would you like to see the program spread and grow?
<p>
Frankly, I don't worry about other programs for youth, CAP, is the answer to Gangs, Drugs, School Discipline (Fla Wing has an Agressive Middle School CAP Cadet Program).
<p>
I have seen the majic of the Cadet Program first hand.





lordmonar

Earhardt1971.

The only reason why I responded in the first place was that you dissed NCO and that you blamed CAP's lack of money on the Air Force.

Bottom line is that there is no money to give to CAP without cutting something else.

The other point I was making was that you tout the ES mission success but want money for the CP mission.  If you want more money for CP you have to show CP successes and/or show how more money in that area would benefit the community.

Finally, there are other national level youth organizations that raise much larger budges then CAP's just from fund raising efforts.  If we want a better program with more people in it then we need to do a better recruiting and fund raising effort.....NOT ask congress to just give us more money and hope that it fixes the problem.

I love CAP.  I would like to see 200+ member squadrons and 30-40 squadrons per wing.  We can have this, with out raising our budget!  All we need to do is recruit, train and keep the membership.   This does not require any extra money.
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

Earhart1971

Public Fund raising will not work, the way it works for the Boy Scouts, because of public perception of CAP and its association with the Government.

Besides its a rare  CAP member that wants to work in CAP, and then on top of that, raise funds to operate with.

Run a Squadron, comply with all the regs, and spend the extra spare time raising funds to operate, I just don't see it happening.

And you raise the point on Search vs Cadet Program.

Cadet Program and SAR are on equal footing with me, but the Cadet Program is the darling of the Program and always will be, WHY?, the public perception is the key, we sell what sells.

And you cannot have a 200 person squadrons on a ZERO Budget, which is what most Squadrons run on.  I would be interested if any 200 member Squadron exists, beyond a JROTC unit, and without paid personnel to run it like the JROTC.


The Middle School Squadrons in Florida, are running on a budget of about 50,000 to 60,000 per year funded by Grants and the School Board, and there are some that have 50 to 100 Cadets, now that is one way to build membership.





BillB

.........making note to give Capt Harris a failing grade in math.....1000 vehicles divided by 52 Wings equals 19 vehicles per Wing, not 200. Otherwise i agree 101%
Gil Robb Wilson # 19
Gil Robb Wilson # 104

lordmonar

Quote from: BillB on April 22, 2006, 09:58:25 AM
.........making note to give Capt Harris a failing grade in math.....1000 vehicles divided by 52 Wings equals 19 vehicles per Wing, not 200. Otherwise i agree 101%

One extra zero and you crucify me! ::)
PATRICK M. HARRIS, SMSgt, CAP

SarDragon

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 22, 2006, 06:19:25 AM
Public Fund raising will not work, the way it works for the Boy Scouts, because of public perception of CAP and its association with the Government.

What have you done to help change that perception?

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 22, 2006, 06:19:25 AMBesides its a rare  CAP member that wants to work in CAP, and then on top of that, raise funds to operate with.

Almost everyone in my squadron understands our budget and is willing to do what it takes to maintain an income stream to match our expenses. The particular method my senior squadron uses is annual squadron dues. I know this isn't as practical for units with cadets, but there are other ways for them to raise funds. My last unit, a composite squadron, had significant income from recycling. Cadets collect the cans and botles, and a senior takes them to the recycle center and turns them in for money, which them goes in the squadron bank account. We made about $300 a year that way.

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 22, 2006, 06:19:25 AMRun a Squadron, comply with all the regs, and spend the extra spare time raising funds to operate, I just don't see it happening.

Happens all the time in units that have a firm grasp of reality. It just needs to be sold right to the membership.

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 22, 2006, 06:19:25 AMAnd you raise the point on Search vs Cadet Program.

Cadet Program and SAR are on equal footing with me, but the Cadet Program is the darling of the Program and always will be, WHY?, the public perception is the key, we sell what sells.

And you cannot have a 200 person squadrons on a ZERO Budget, which is what most Squadrons run on.  I would be interested if any 200 member Squadron exists, beyond a JROTC unit, and without paid personnel to run it like the JROTC.

There used to be a 150 member unit in my group, with 75 or 80 active cadets that got along just fine at that level. Membership levels decreased after some internal problems, but none of it was related to financial issues.

Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 22, 2006, 06:19:25 AMThe Middle School Squadrons in Florida, are running on a budget of about 50,000 to 60,000 per year funded by Grants and the School Board, and there are some that have 50 to 100 Cadets, now that is one way to build membership.

What have you done to try and get a program like that in your local area?
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Earhart1971

#48
Your 1st Point:"What have you done to help change that perception?"

It unrealistic to try and change a fact " we are a Auxillary of the United States Air Force" and that hurts our fund raising, sorry its just a fact of life for CAP, there has not been a successful national effort to raise funds for CAP.

Your Second Point: On Squadrons doing Car Washes: I am not talking about small time fund raising, everybody has been doing such things for years.

Your Third Point: Again, everybody does, things like Car Washes, and such.

Your Fourth Point: What I am doing?  Actually, I promoting the School Program and this Sheriff Candidate: www.electBillArmstrong.org
He wants to sponsor a Squadron.

iowacap

Everyone is talking about how they cut the budget and that and government should toss money their direction. Well for one it takes a lot of hard work and dedication and talking with the government and A LOT of time to show them why they should spend the money, In our state we have done just that but it all comes with a price from us volunteers here is a link to an article on capblog about it and will give you an idea. http://capblog.typepad.com/capblog/2006/04/iowa_ag_shows_c.html This should give you an idea on what the hard work and working with the government will give you and encourage other wings to follow suit or try to do simular things as it will tell you in the aritcles and comments!