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O-Flights

Started by yangsiyui, September 15, 2016, 03:39:20 AM

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yangsiyui

Is there a set time between your O-Rides? Like 1every  2 to 3 months or 1 every promotion? I got curious after my Captain told me that he would try to get me my second O-ride soon.

SarDragon

You can get them as often as you have the opportunity. Presuming that your unit is scheduling them on a fair basis, the rides happen when a plane and pilot are available. We have four cadet units in our group, and when the plane(s) and pilot(s) are available, there are o-rides at least once a month, at three different airports. Your situation may differ. I'm in SoCal.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

Panzerbjorn

Sometimes it seems that we are doing o-rides every weekend between glider operations once a month, my own squadron doing o-rides for our cadets at least once a month, and then my squadron's pilots being asked to assist with o-rides for cadets from squadrons that aren't assigned a plane.

Every cadet is allowed 5 powered o-flights and 5 glider o-flights.  You can have as many back seat flights as you can stand on top of those.

My squadron has 60 cadets in it, so that's 300 powered o-flights and 300 glider flights.  Add on, say, 30 cadets from other squadrons.  That's another 150 powered and glider flights to do. Each pilot can really feasibly only do 3 flights in a day.  That makes for a long, tiring day.  Unless you're at an encampment where o-flights are being done en masse, you're looking at anywhere between 1-3 planes being used during an organized o-flight activity.  So, you're looking at 3-9 cadets getting a single flight in a given day.  I'll let you do the math from there as to how long it could take to get through 90-ish cadets in a local area.

The answer to your question is no, there isn't a set time between o-rides.  But the paragraph above gives you an idea of the logistics involved in getting o-rides done on a regular basis.  Every Wing does things differently, and there's nothing stopping a qualified pilot to just picking up the phone, calling you, and asking if you'd like an O-ride on some random day.

Remember that you only get 5 powered flights and 5 glider flights for your entire cadet career.  Most cadets tend to spread them out, either to savor them or because the logistics just don't make doing all five in the first couple months a cadet joins feasible.
Major
Command Pilot
Ground Branch Director
Eagle Scout

LTC Don

we chose the fifth Saturday as our unit 'Activity Day' with O-Flights as the primary activity.  That way, it's scheduled to the exclusion of anything else so it's easy to plan for and execute.  We always have some type of lunch for everyone.  Has worked out very well for us so far.
Donald A. Beckett, Lt Col, CAP
Commander
MER-NC-143
Gill Rob Wilson #1891

etodd

I'd really like to hear more of how other Squadrons are handling O-Rides.

A Cadet joining at age 12 only getting 5, means its less than once per year if they were to spread it out evenly until 18.  For kids this age, thats an eternity. Unlimited back seat rides, but how often does that occur? How many flights does an average Cadet actually wind up with?

The brochures, websites, videos and more make it look like Cadets get to fly much more often than they do.

As a EAA member, I also invite the CAP Cadets to come in their civvies to Young Eagle days so we can get them in the air more. That helps.

How many MPs going on proficiency flights with a Senior MO ... invite a Cadet along to give them flight time and experience?

What other ways can we get these Cadets in the air more often?
"Don't try to explain it, just bow your head
Breathe in, breathe out, move on ..."

EMT-83

I can't see any reason to spread out those rides, other than availability. Get them completed before assets become unavailable or the cadet moves on.

The number of O-Rides that never get flown must be staggering. I know of many cadets that kept postponing flights, then aged out of the program.

I also know of cadets with lots of back seat rides. They'll fly as often as they can.

Eclipse

+1 one, it is staggering.

There are far too many cadets who never even see a CAP plane in person, let alone fly in one.

I have the advantage of meeting on an airport, and try to fly o-rides on meeting nights in the summer, huge time
saver for all.  Unfortunately that's not an option for many units, and the logistics of getting enough cadets to an airport
on )-ride "day" can be daunting.

Get them all in as soon as you can - it helps QCUA and SoM, but more importantly is a significant retention aid in many cases.

There is also a metric on the CC's dashboard (which is from what I can tell, broken), that tracks cadets who fly in their first 180 days,
so NHQ clearly thinks, or thought, this was important, and I agree.

"That Others May Zoom"

Майор Хаткевич

Quote from: Eclipse on September 15, 2016, 07:03:33 PM
There is also a metric on the CC's dashboard (which is from what I can tell, broken), that tracks cadets who fly in their first 180 days,
so NHQ clearly thinks, or thought, this was important, and I agree.



It's a stated goal in 52-16.

CAPDCCMOM

I have found that getting O flights scheduled can be about as productive, and as much fun, as raising the Titanic with Tweezers. "We don't have planes available for a Squadron as small and away from HQ as yours", "You are too far away from the aircraft", "You didn't play ball with the troll holding th scheduling pen, and sacrifice your first born on their alter"......Sarcasm I admit, but only the part about blood sacrifice of newborns.

I have had Cadets waiting over a year for O flights, one even aged out. I have made calls, used my COC, and prayed to the Great Pumpkin. I have offered to drive my Cadets anywhere in our Wing. All to no avail. If they don't want to, you are not getting your Cadets in the air. I so LOVE politics.

THRAWN

Quote from: CAPDCCMOM on September 15, 2016, 08:40:32 PM
I have found that getting O flights scheduled can be about as productive, and as much fun, as raising the Titanic with Tweezers. "We don't have planes available for a Squadron as small and away from HQ as yours", "You are too far away from the aircraft", "You didn't play ball with the troll holding th scheduling pen, and sacrifice your first born on their alter"......Sarcasm I admit, but only the part about blood sacrifice of newborns.

I have had Cadets waiting over a year for O flights, one even aged out. I have made calls, used my COC, and prayed to the Great Pumpkin. I have offered to drive my Cadets anywhere in our Wing. All to no avail. If they don't want to, you are not getting your Cadets in the air. I so LOVE politics.

The more things change....

Don't wing CP types get notices about things like this anymore? My ex used to hold the slot and I can remember wing/region/national telecons and reports about all kinds of CP stuff. I just can't accept that this kind of nonsense is still happening and no one is held accountable.
Strup-"Belligerent....at times...."
AFRCC SMC 10-97
NSS ISC 05-00
USAF SOS 2000
USAF ACSC 2011
US NWC 2016
USMC CSCDEP 2023

Eclipse

Quote from: THRAWN on September 15, 2016, 09:04:20 PM
Don't wing CP types get notices about things like this anymore? My ex used to hold the slot and I can remember wing/region/national telecons and reports about all kinds of CP stuff. I just can't accept that this kind of nonsense is still happening and no one is held accountable.

If not CP then AE and Ops, which is always harping on hours, especially these days.

With a "we'll go wherever" attitude, this is unacceptable, but sadly not uncommon.

"That Others May Zoom"

Spam

yangsiyui:  if you want to fly - if that is the main reason you're here in CAP - you need to be persistent in respectfully asking, at every chance. Email, call, smoke signals, personal respectful requests at the meeting every week. Drop a note in his in box at the unit. Get your smiling expectant face in front of your Commander every week to send that nonverbal to him:  "Sir!  Any news yet as to when I'll be able to get in the air again"!  Do not take "no" for an answer, and don't accept "someday"... press for a date. It may get rescheduled (waiting your turn after other first timer cadets, weather, SAR missions and the like are valid reasons), but if you don't get that next flight within three or four months, it just may not be coming, and you might want to consider a transfer to a unit which has a better track record of access to planes/pilots.


DCCMOM, there's some truth in what you say there.


As a cadet (early 80s, 3.5 years) I never got a single O flight. I accepted it, and moved on to try to make it a mission to get my younger bros and sisters what I didn't get.


As a Group/CC, I visited one remote unit on their airport where, when I walked in, their brief hope that I was an arriving O Flight pilot turned to disappointment that I was only their new Group CO (the first such animal to visit the unit in a decade, which is another but related issue). I found that there was a standing policy to only use within Group aircraft to fly in Group cadets (and this protectionist attitude was NOT getting the cadets flown). When my DO and I arranged for an available C172 from the nearest unit to fly them, I faced angry charges of favoritism from another unit because I had gone outside the geo boundaries of my Group to get a crew, and I didn't use the (more expensive, in Group) Maule which would have had to have been flown all the way across the top of the state (more expensive to fly/further to fly/less cadets flown, plus they had not responded at all to flight requests). The favoritism charge was apparently that I was more in favor of getting cadets flown, and thus not so much on behalf of the pilots who wanted to build Maule time or their unit CO who wanted to keep hours up on her assigned aircraft. That angry protectionist protest in turn became cause to axe all the remote units from my command, which I interpreted as a lack of confidence in my ability to command, and I ended up resigning (I do hope they are getting rides now in their new Group!). I never did get a chance to implement a rotating quarterly plan to space out O flights and SAREXs and proficiency flying weekends across the counties for improved access...


As a current Sqdn/CC, I have a unit which meets in a church with no O Flight pilots and no aircraft assigned. (We rely on the kindness of strangers, to paraphrase Blanche DuBois). Last month, I took three unflown cadets away from our own last Group O Flight day (including one of my sons, who I prioritize last to avoid charges of favoritism).  Thus, we lost our Quality Cadet Unit Award for the first time in five years due to missing that O Flight metric.


So, from my perspective, there are aspects of this program that are a "free for all", and cadets, parents, and their CO's need to be assertive in getting access to the program if they want to fly. That's not specific to my current Wing, as I've seen these factors in operation throughout 30+ years in CAP in five Wings and three Regions. Cadets and their parents who absolutely want to fly as their number one reason for being in (which our surveys tell us is the main reason) need to ask, and ask loudly and frequently, and be willing to transfer units to units which do fly, or we'll continue to see a high new member mortality rate. Whether flown in two's or in twenties, you must push for your access to flights.


V/R
Spam


Eclipse

Quote from: Spam on September 15, 2016, 09:33:16 PMThe favoritism charge was apparently that I was more in favor of getting cadets flown, and thus not so much on behalf of the pilots who wanted to build Maule time or their unit CO who wanted to keep hours up on her assigned aircraft.

Wow - imagine.

I will say there are a lot more controls in place these days then in the past in regards to getting cadets flown and related issues,
but by no means are things "fixed", and there will always be cadets who are in a better postilion to get access to CAP resources then
others, especially as the program continues to shrink.

It's doubly frustrating when you see cadets with access who don't fly because..."reasons"...

"That Others May Zoom"

Майор Хаткевич

I like our system. Group coordinates pilots and let's squadrons know howany cadets to get for a date. Doesnt work well during busy summer...but at least we had across the board % increases.

Eclipse

And there's also no issue with coordinating things yourself as long as it doesn't conflict with
stuff already planned.

Fly, fly, fly.

"That Others May Zoom"

Huey Driver

Quote from: etodd on September 15, 2016, 06:15:07 PM
How many MPs going on proficiency flights with a Senior MO ... invite a Cadet along to give them flight time and experience?

Need to be careful with this. My region's AF Liaison has been very strict about who the crew can consist of on proficiency profiles. We've had a few pilots dinged for this infraction.

Quote from: CAPR 60-1 Air Force Approved Proficiency Flight Profiles
While designed for pilot proficiency, other aircrew members may also be on board the flight if compatible training can be accomplished concurrently.

Unless the cadet is qualified aircrew or a "properly supervised" trainee, they can't just tag along.
With malice toward none, with charity for all, with firmness in the right...

Eclipse

#16
Wow. Missed that and I thought we'd been over that issue before.

Over 18 and qual'ed as air crew are only members allowed on proficiency flights.

also..

Quote from: etodd on September 15, 2016, 06:15:07 PM
As a EAA member, I also invite the CAP Cadets to come in their civvies to Young Eagle days so we can get them in the air more. That helps.

You need to be real careful with this as you could violate CPPT quickly.  If the cadets are assisting on the day, officially,
there needs to be a sign-out sheet that clearly indicates when the CAP/EAA day ended and they are now on EAA-time only,
and further, the EAA pilot would be best not being a CAP member, because IMHO you lose the "while in CAP aircraft"
exemption regarding the prohibition of being 1-on-1 in a vehicle.

"That Others May Zoom"

Panzerbjorn

If the cadet ages out....well, no problem...then it's time to train them as aircrew. I've had two cadets in the last year who went off to Powered Flight Academy, became my students, and now both cadets are Private Pilots.  The challenge now with those two? Getting them up in a 172 that isn't local.  But they're both on track to be CAP VFR pilots.  I have two more over 18 cadets who both became Mission Scanners and are now training to become Aerial Photographers.  There are options.

With 300+ rides do do, one can literally make O-flights a full-time job.  That's just in my squadron ALONE.  We find opportunities to fly cadets any way we can.  Flying up to Hawk Mountain?  Throw some cadets in the plane with you.  Taking a plane up to Encampment?  Throw some cadets in there with you.  The only time you can't fly a cadet with you is when you're doing ES training (unless they're over 18).  But there are lots of opportunities outside of o-flights to fly a cadet and get them up in the air.
Major
Command Pilot
Ground Branch Director
Eagle Scout

arajca

A problem we're having is getting cades to sign up for O-flights. Some take all they can, others won't even consider them. This gets frustrating when those cadets complain about not getting to fly, then refuse to sign-up for O-flights.

Every cadet who flies consistently brags about it and how much fun they had.

Eclipse

Quote from: arajca on September 16, 2016, 03:02:13 PM
A problem we're having is getting cades to sign up for O-flights. Some take all they can, others won't even consider them. This gets frustrating when those cadets complain about not getting to fly, then refuse to sign-up for O-flights.

Yeah, those !@#$ horses just wont drink.

You can see how the situations evolve, and it's a constant brute-force battle I have to keep fighting myself.

Motivated CC and staff start making opportunities, and bringing things to the table people have been whining about
for years.

Faced with the prospect of actually having to >do< something in CAP, vs. whining about how they can't do things,
people start dropping as the excuses start evaporating.

Every time you ask about interest in "x", hands go up, then when it's sign-up time, no hands and no show. 
Whether you're a pilot, staff, or just a rank and file member, you're only going to push for things so many times,
and be left at the alter before you disengage yourself.

That's the problem with these micro-squadrons - same 5 adults doing everything, so if they aren't available, nothing happens,
and then they get "tired of it" things dissolve quickly.

"That Others May Zoom"