Cadets as flight line marshals?

[EMT-83]

Our squadron has had events where we have acted in civilian clothing in situations where there could be a hazard while operating under CAP, but we stay within protocols while we do so.

^^^ I don't even know where to start. Where is Eclipse when you need him?

[PHall]

Our squadron has had events where we have acted in civilian clothing in situations where there could be a hazard while operating under CAP, but we stay within protocols while we do so.

^^^ I don't even know where to start. Where is Eclipse when you need him?

SkyHornet, don't be surprised if your unit gets a visit. Posting about stuff like this is NOT a good idea!

[THRAWN]

SkyHornet you are correct when you state that perception is reality. My perception as an aviation safety professional is that the reality is you are going to be present when a plane gets wrinkled or skin gets torn. Do yourself and your unit a favor: quit while you are behind.

[Spam]

Our squadron has had events where we have acted in civilian clothing in situations where there could be a hazard while operating under CAP, but we stay within protocols while we do so.

...

Like I said, it's something I've been informed of, but not witnessed in-person. I have heard the discussions as to "we need to use this phraseology" so they can get around NHQ mandates.

Wow. Your unit too... just, wow.

OK, I guess we aren't cool after all, or you missed my point entirely.  When you say you haven't witnessed this type of behavior, yet then state that your own unit knowingly flouts CAP safety policies, well... I don't know what to tell you. The "but we stay within protocols" line is completely disingenuous.

My earlier example? The "take your BDU shirts off" unit? I relieved their Commander, then being his Group/CC and if you can't see that your statements portray the exact same attitude, then we have a problem. These attitudes and excuses are fundamentally incompatible with the safety policies of CAP and the Air Force.

V/R,
Spam

[TheSkyHornet]

Our squadron has had events where we have acted in civilian clothing in situations where there could be a hazard while operating under CAP, but we stay within protocols while we do so.

...

Like I said, it's something I've been informed of, but not witnessed in-person. I have heard the discussions as to "we need to use this phraseology" so they can get around NHQ mandates.

Wow. Your unit too... just, wow.

OK, I guess we aren't cool after all, or you missed my point entirely.  When you say you haven't witnessed this type of behavior, yet then state that your own unit knowingly flouts CAP safety policies, well... I don't know what to tell you. The "but we stay within protocols" line is completely disingenuous.

My earlier example? The "take your BDU shirts off" unit? I relieved their Commander, then being his Group/CC and if you can't see that your statements portray the exact same attitude, then we have a problem. These attitudes and excuses are fundamentally incompatible with the safety policies of CAP and the Air Force.

V/R,
Spam

Misunderstanding.

We have performed parking lot detail outside of uniform for fundraising purposes, wearing civilian clothing. We ALWAYS wear glow/orange safety vests and use traffic wands, as well as carry radios. Before any event, there is a meeting between everyone, senior members and cadets, to go over the area of operation, timelines, communications, assignments, and safety procedures. It's taken extremely seriously. The reason we have been in civilian uniform is that when we have done certain activities, event hosts have requested in the past that we refrain from wearing camouflage uniforms as a distraction from the ongoing event. Basically, they will pay our squadron to have 10 people help park cars all day, but they don't want us in uniform. The squadron isn't going to forgo a chance to raise $1500 for the unit just because they can't wear BDUs.

The FLM stuff I was talking about was from two other units in our area, one of which I frequent for my own aircraft training, and another that we've obtained roughly half of our cadets from after they transferred. There have been instances of discussions at these units of going around CAP regs during their supposed off-hours activities (for example, mom and dad and the two sons are all CAP members, and they meet up with a couple of other seniors and their kids at the airport on a Saturday morning and do 'their own thing' that isn't actually under the mission of the squadron, but they're all members of that squadron...that sort of stuff). I haven't witnessed it first-hand, but I've been at the table during discussions about it. In a 50-mile radius, there are 6 CAP squadrons.

I didn't intend to incriminate anyone here, but it appears that there's a public issue with what I brought up. From the sounds of it, it seems like I should talk with the squadron safety officer when I pay a visit this week and address this.

As I said, this has nothing to do with my own unit. It's entirely outside of our squadron that this came about.

[Panzerbjorn]

You may also want to talk to a legal officer of the level of your choice and ask about the liabilities you have when you have a CAP activity when not in uniform.  I.e. Are you covered by corporate insurance in the case something happens to one of your cadets.

I'm not quite sure how a cadet in uniform would distract from the even or confuse people into thinking that they're being directed by military personnel.  But they're your eyes on scene, not mine.  There are other options if you really have to be in civies for this kind of thing.  Get yourself some squadron t-shirts.  That way, you're at least not passing up the opportunity to recruit and you have more control over cadets showing up in inappropriate t-shirts.

[TheSkyHornet]

You may also want to talk to a legal officer of the level of your choice and ask about the liabilities you have when you have a CAP activity when not in uniform.  I.e. Are you covered by corporate insurance in the case something happens to one of your cadets.

I'm not quite sure how a cadet in uniform would distract from the even or confuse people into thinking that they're being directed by military personnel.  But they're your eyes on scene, not mine.  There are other options if you really have to be in civies for this kind of thing.  Get yourself some squadron t-shirts.  That way, you're at least not passing up the opportunity to recruit and you have more control over cadets showing up in inappropriate t-shirts.

In cases of wearing civies, the cadets generally wear their encampment shirts. We typically specify "no-logo" shirts. In some cases, the event hosts specifically mandate no recruiting. Usually when we wear BDUs, our PAO will carry some pamphlets to pass out if anyone asks about our organization. Most of the time, the events hosts are okay with this, but there are occasions when our parking detail or help setting up an activity come with instructions of "Please, no recruiting at our event." My squadron has had a history of working a lot of parking details as fundraising, which has its goods and bads, but usually pays pretty well. We had an event just a couple of weeks ago that we made out with $1400 for the squadron for two days of running the parking lot, wearing our BDUs and safety vests. Each fall they work weekends running a haunted house parking lot which is one of the groups that says "we will pay you, but you cannot wear any logos from your group." We can grab $1000+ from them, but the only way we can get that money is to do the work per their instruction. It may not be the best recruiting tool, but that's a lot of money to bring in for the squadron to put to cadet programs. These are all sanctioned activities that are approved by Wing. We do not work any event without going through Wing. Our CC is very strong on that.

We did have a situation at a recent event where we were in charge of parking and one of our 16-year-old cadets was verbally confronted by another event worker who was asked to move a vehicle because he was blocking a driveway. The individual, roughly 50-years-old, had yelled some profane remarks at the cadet before stepping out of his vehicle and taking several steps toward the cadet with his fists clenched inciting a fight by saying "You wanna go? Come at me." The issue was over in a matter of less than a minute, but this was reported to the event host, squadron commander, safety officer, and on to wing. It was also discussed at the last squadron meeting between all of the senior members and cadets as an incident debrief. It seems to have been handled properly from being immediately reported and sent up the chain of command.

I bring this up because it reminded me of something I had observed a few weeks ago at PT session with a local squadron. A cadet had been running a track during PT and started hobbling pretty bad. I informed the CDC at the time I saw the injury, who informed the C/CC, who talked to the cadet about his injury (I assume as I observed, from a distance of maybe 100 feet away from my position). While walking back to the meeting area, the cadet was definitely having trouble walking but appeared to be trying to stick it out. I heard the C/CC yell to him to fall out of formation and walk beside him at a slower pace. He seemed to be better, to my knowledge, over the next few minutes, but during push-ups, I saw he was still doing PT (which I wasn't sure why). I went over to the C/CC and asked if the guy was alright. C/CC said "He just hurt his ankle." I responded with "Should he still be doing PT? He was walking pretty bad back there." He replied "He wants to keep going. It's not my job to tell him he can't." I strolled over to the CDC and said I saw they had an injured cadet who was still doing PT, but I felt he should refrain from further activity for the evening. He said he would keep an eye on the kid. I then saw the cadet doing sit-ups, with another cadet sitting with his knees on his feet to hold them in place, which I thought would be an extremely painful state for someone with an ankle injury. He stood up, and could barely walk. I then saw the C/CC grab a folding chair and put it down, then told the cadet he wasn't to do any more PT that evening. About five to ten minutes later, he had grabbed a bag of ice, handed it to the cadet, and told him to take off his shoes and put ice on his ankle. The C/CC asked me for the time, which I replied. Later that evening, I saw the cadet still hobbling around when they moved on to other activities, mostly classroom stuff, but he had his boots back on. I finally asked the cadet myself what was up with his foot, and he said he thinks he twisted it while running but that he would be alright if he just sat down. Before I left, I talked with the squadron CC and told him what I saw, and that the C/CC had remarked it wasn't his responsibility to pull a cadet out of PT for an injury if they felt like they should continue. The next week, when I saw the group, I asked the cadet how he was doing, which he seemed to be much better. The CDC, off-the-record, had grumbled about the irresponsibility of the C/CC who failed to show up at that week's meeting. I said I didn't really care for the answer I received from the C/CC about an injured cadet. He seemed to agree, but I don't think it really phased anyone. In my opinion, this is a case where you see safety protocols being busted through pure negligence. I informed the people I felt should know. My guess is nothing came of it, either in the form of a report or verbal reprimand, but I can't answer to that since I really don't know.

My point is, there are squadrons our there with people in positions of authority who really don't care, and they won't be told what to do even if it's wrong. I'm grateful to be in a squadron that doesn't go that route, but I do know of squadrons who slack. I guess I should start being more aware of it and bring it up more when I hear it and especially observe it. Failure on my part for not addressing it immediately.