Letters of Admonishment or Reprimand?

[RADIOMAN015]

Interestingly I noticed that the "Adverse Actions Committee" was talking about the retention of these documents in someones file.

Is this type of documentation of letters of A or R issued that often in CAP   I've never heard of anyone getting one of these and likely most volunteers subjected to this would just find something else to spend their time volunteering in.

I would think that if CAP is going to this length, they really need a regulation/policy that talks about progressive discipline e.g. verbal warning/counseling, written warning/counseling,  adverse action (e.g. formal letter of admonishment, reprimand, membership review board prior to renewal, etc).
RM   

[Flying Pig]

Or you could just do what I did as a CC.  "I dont think CAP is for you.  At least not here."

[RADIOMAN015]

Or you could just do what I did as a CC.  "I don't think CAP is for you.  At least not here."

Realistically, even what you do/did, really doesn't happen that often with senior members anyways  

Most senior members that have personality clashes with others or just don't like the unit organizational climate with usually just transfer or stop coming.   I would guess that the LOA's or LOR's are primarily issued to long term high ranking members, that may decide to stay around longer.   Also IF I remember correctly the AF has specific time limits that LOA's or LOR's remain in the airman/officer's unfavorable information file, so perhaps CAP needs to look at those retention periods.
RM 

[MICT1362]

LOR's/LOA's are great to accompany CAPF50's in cadets files.  I would say however that these should only be used following major incidents at activities such as encampments or NCSA's.  But there are occasions where they could be issued at the squadron level.  Not everybody needs one, but some do, and CAPF50's don't always do the job.

Medic-

[Flying Pig]

Or you could just do what I did as a CC.  "I don't think CAP is for you.  At least not here."

Realistically, even what you do/did, really doesn't happen that often with senior members anyways  

Most senior members that have personality clashes with others or just don't like the unit organizational climate with usually just transfer or stop coming.   I would guess that the LOA's or LOR's are primarily issued to long term high ranking members, that may decide to stay around longer.   Also IF I remember correctly the AF has specific time limits that LOA's or LOR's remain in the airman/officer's unfavorable information file, so perhaps CAP needs to look at those retention periods.
RM

Your absolutely right.  Only did it once. Most people are here for solid reasons and if someone would need to be approached I have to think the overwhelming majority of that very small minority would probably do whatever they needed to do to get back in the good graces.

[lordmonar]

Interestingly I noticed that the "Adverse Actions Committee" was talking about the retention of these documents in someones file.

Is this type of documentation of letters of A or R issued that often in CAP   I've never heard of anyone getting one of these and likely most volunteers subjected to this would just find something else to spend their time volunteering in.

I would think that if CAP is going to this length, they really need a regulation/policy that talks about progressive discipline e.g. verbal warning/counseling, written warning/counseling,  adverse action (e.g. formal letter of admonishment, reprimand, membership review board prior to renewal, etc).
RM   

Currently we have nothing to the bad or quesitonable behavior of our cadets or senior members.
I think we do need a systematic way of being able to admonish and reprimand our members, a way of keeping track of those actions, a way to challenge those actions and a way to clean the record if the situaiton warrents it.

If someone who gets an LOA and decides to quit over it......then maybe it is a good thing.  The whole point of an LOA/LOR system is to document substandard behavior.  Assumeing a perfect world where they are not abuses (see the need for a way of challenging them) any one who got an LOA or and LOR is substandard and would not be missed if he walked.

As it is now....we only have two real tools in our personnel managment tool bag...suspention and termination.   A formal LOA/LOR system would give us more tools to adjust substandard behavior and get on with the mission at hand.

[FW]

An "Adverse Action Guide" would go along way in formalizing the"progressive discipline" process.  It is important to realize the goal is to bring a member in line with the culture of Civil Air Patrol and not, steps to termination of membership.  IMHO, terminating a member is a failure in the program.  LOR's would be one of the last steps in the process; before suspension and membership termination. 

[flyboy53]

I've done LORs three times and copied higher headquarters each time. I had to use a military model, but it was the best way to either head off a 2b or document the actions leading to one.

[RADIOMAN015]

I've done LORs three times and copied higher headquarters each time. I had to use a military model, but it was the best way to either head off a 2b or document the actions leading to one.

Yep more "military wanna bee" stuff, hugh   Personally I would think a letter of correction would be something or even a memo for the record in which the adult leadership, e.g. commander and appropriate deputy commander (for seniors), discusses with the member the issues that are of concern and the member signs that memo and is also given a copy of it.   CAP doesn't have very much guidance on disciplinary type activities, as FW stated above.  When you start putting things in writing there needs to be guidance on retention periods for this, and it has to be "reasonable" in relation to what the actual offense was.

BTW did the 3 members who got the LOR's stay in, or did they tell you what you could do with those letters
RM   

[DakRadz]

I've done LORs three times and copied higher headquarters each time. I had to use a military model, but it was the best way to either head off a 2b or document the actions leading to one.

Yep more "military wanna bee" stuff, hugh   Personally I would think a letter of correction would be something or even a memo for the record in which the adult leadership, e.g. commander and appropriate deputy commander (for seniors), discusses with the member the issues that are of concern and the member signs that memo and is also given a copy of it.   CAP doesn't have very much guidance on disciplinary type activities, as FW stated above.  When you start putting things in writing there needs to be guidance on retention periods for this, and it has to be "reasonable" in relation to what the actual offense was.

BTW did the 3 members who got the LOR's stay in, or did they tell you what you could do with those letters
RM

HEY RM- Ooops, CAPS lock is annoying, huh?

No really though- you do realize that flyboy is retired from AFR, right? He's a BTDT guy. Not a wannabe.

What's a wanna bee, anyway? Are people allergic to that type?

[MSG Mac]

CAP just issued the CAPF 40 which is a great couseling tool. and should be used for all Senior Members to let them know how they're doing and what they need to do to progress within the unit, and CAP as a whole.

[RADIOMAN015]

CAP just issued the CAPF 40 which is a great couseling tool. and should be used for all Senior Members to let them know how they're doing and what they need to do to progress within the unit, and CAP as a whole.

That's just about looks like the military evaluation forms that are used.  So now on top of all the other administrative "mumbo jumbo" that units have to do, you are proposing that a form 40 be filled out on every person   OR just the ones that are the 'bad boys" get this filled out   Surely if someone is GETTING PAID one would expect some sort of an evaluation.   

I think this shows how much wasted volunteer time there is in CAP, formulating more military wanna bee BS rather than concentrating on formulating & implementing short, medium, and long range goals for the organization and effectively communicating them to the membership, so the organization goes somewhere. 

Lets say you get an evaluation that is bad, do you get to appeal that evaluation somewhere or is it is what it is   There's always going to be personality clashes in organizations, and when the current commander leaves and a new one comes in, how long does this bad evaluation stay in your file, forever    It seems to me that this form was made for those that are interested in participating in the quest for the highest corporate offices, such as wing, regional, CAP vice, or CAP national commander, and not the rank & file who have NO interest in such things but do want to contribute at the local level.   

I don't know about you, but volunteer management is about getting volunteers motivated to do more by stressing the positive things they are doing, NOT the negative things/or their short comings.  A squadron is staffed by who we get that walks though the door to "volunteer" and we have to use whatever their best abilities are to our advantage .  Granted I have done some selective recruiting for senior members in certain areas, in the past with very good results.

RM

[Eclipse]

^ Yep - we're all just one big, happy, HAM Club on a field day.

No expectations, no ramifications for failed performance, no disciplinary actions when people are negligent or willful.

Just do what you want, show up when you feel like it, and wear whatever you want.

[NCRblues]

RM, really?

Ok, it is time for the rule. You posted something bad about cap, now you must post 2 good things.... make it so

[MSG Mac]

CAP just issued the CAPF 40 which is a great counseling tool. and should be used for all Senior Members to let them know how they're doing and what they need to do to progress within the unit, and CAP as a whole.

That's just about looks like the military evaluation forms that are used.  So now on top of all the other administrative "mumbo jumbo" that units have to do, you are proposing that a form 40 be filled out on every person   OR just the ones that are the 'bad boys" get this filled out   Surely if someone is GETTING PAID one would expect some sort of an evaluation.   

I think this shows how much wasted volunteer time there is in CAP, formulating more military wanna bee BS rather than concentrating on formulating & implementing short, medium, and long range goals for the organization and effectively communicating them to the membership, so the organization goes somewhere. 

Lets say you get an evaluation that is bad, do you get to appeal that evaluation somewhere or is it is what it is   There's always going to be personality clashes in organizations, and when the current commander leaves and a new one comes in, how long does this bad evaluation stay in your file, forever    It seems to me that this form was made for those that are interested in participating in the quest for the highest corporate offices, such as wing, regional, CAP vice, or CAP national commander, and not the rank & file who have NO interest in such things but do want to contribute at the local level.   

I don't know about you, but volunteer management is about getting volunteers motivated to do more by stressing the positive things they are doing, NOT the negative things/or their short comings.  A squadron is staffed by who we get that walks though the door to "volunteer" and we have to use whatever their best abilities are to our advantage .  Granted I have done some selective recruiting for senior members in certain areas, in the past with very good results.

RM

To me, it means we can have an effective management tool that let's us sit down with a member and see how we're doing in our assigned duties, where we can improve, where we're meeting or exceeding the requirements, and where we can go from there. As far as it being a military form, this type of counseling is standard fare in almost every industry. When it comes down to initiating promotions or awards, it makes a good tool to document achievements and what was said or not said, when coming to these decisions.   

[RADIOMAN015]

^ Yep - we're all just one big, happy, HAM Club on a field day.

No expectations, no ramifications for failed performance, no disciplinary actions when people are negligent or willful.

Just do what you want, show up when you feel like it, and wear whatever you want.

Get real, this is a volunteer organization    Go join the military if you want give out all this disciplinary BS.    Frankly what you think is negligent just might not be seen the same by others that can be more objective. The volunteers I know (and respect) aren't going out to do anything willful against CAP.  Surely we have all that administrative mumbo jumbo that we have to spend our valuable limited volunteer time complying with.  Maybe everything won't be exactly correct, when the IG "checklist charlies" come in and inspect us; BUT most will give a strong effort to meet the intent of every program requirements.   

Although, I would think that for a very limited number in leadership positions, due to their demeanor and treatment of their volunteers, likely set themselves up for their members 'screwing with them", BUT likely it is more of a volunteer passive resistance by pulling back or limiting active participation or transferring somewhere else.  So those units faced with staffing issues and mission personnel available, likely have leadership problems that are contributing to the short falls.   Simply treat others the way you want to be treated goes a long way in any organization.             

As far as amateur "ham" radio is concerned, there's some volunteers that are very dedicated to disaster type support, including the NWS "sky warn" program, and have been doing that for many, many years on a local, regional, national, and even international basis  -- and are deserving of respect.   There's even military reservists/air reserve technicians and state police support personnel, that are involved in these programs in at least 4 of the counties in my state area that I'm aware of.  For the most part there really isn't any uniforms being worn by them except IF they are a CERT team member their may be a colored bright vest.   There's is some limited classroom type training involved (that can readily be put into use), (as well as weekly practical emergency communications practice nets both VHF repeater &  VHF simplex, and HF/SSB, so participants have a good understanding of what works, where) but other than getting licensed, it ain't like CAP's "train for the sake of training" programs, with little chance of use.     

BTW I've never heard of a CAP mission failing because someone decided to wear a golf shirt rather than one of our military type uniforms.  Personally, on fast emergency response requirements, I think a simple ANSI vest that says Civil Air Patrol on it is sufficient as a CAP uniform.     

Some of you actually believe that somehow someone that is going to be disciplined (with all this written documentation, LOA, LOR -- please cite the regulation that allows you to even do this and the format required, and the individuals response/rights, especially as it applies to CAP's compliance with all those discrimination laws) is actually going to stick around and take more of it.  Of course their not, and likely they will give you the "salute" you may be deserving of as they leave.  You can also bet they are going to talk down the program to everyone they meet
RM   

[NCRblues]

RM, how does anyone put up with you around your area?

"The volunteers I know (and respect) aren't going out to do anything willful against CAP".... I'm pretty sure the people who knew pineda and respected him thought the same thing...till the day OSI and SF served the search warrents on him because he was cheating on AF controlled tests and lied on record about covering it up....

I think maybe its time you left the organization. I see nothing good EVER coming from you. I might have my arguments and disagreements with people on this forum, but i never question their dedication to CAP. I question yours all the time....

You agree to follow the orders of those placed above you in the chain of command. If your commander wants to discipline you, guess what, he can do so. You are free to walk away from the organization, and maybe that's what you SHOULD do.

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

Surely we have all that administrative mumbo jumbo that we have to spend our valuable limited volunteer time complying with.  Maybe everything won't be exactly correct, when the IG "checklist charlies" come in and inspect us; BUT most will give a strong effort to meet the intent of every program requirements.   

And how is your wing IG supposed to find the the ones that don't "give a strong effort to meet the intent of every program requirements. "? Magic?

All of the checklists you seem to dislike are available to the squadrons / groups well ahead of an SUI.

[davidsinn]

That's just about looks like the military evaluation forms that are used.  So now on top of all the other administrative "mumbo jumbo" that units have to do, you are proposing that a form 40 be filled out on every person    

This coming from the same troll that proposed we track every single in-kind donation for zero net benefit.

[RADIOMAN015]

RM, how does anyone put up with you around your area?

I think maybe its time you left the organization. I see nothing good EVER coming from you. I might have my arguments and disagreements with people on this forum, but i never question their dedication to CAP. I question yours all the time....

You agree to follow the orders of those placed above you in the chain of command. If your commander wants to discipline you, guess what, he can do so. You are free to walk away from the organization, and maybe that's what you SHOULD do.

I really like CAP, and try to do my very best in radio communications, emergency services support, and public affairs.    I have no illusions that I am just a volunteer in the CIVIL AIR PATROL , and it is my SELF MOTIVATION that gets things done.  Not only do I help my squadron but also help my wing, and have also helped my region (cause no one else stepped forward to help), and I have been appropriately awarded for my efforts.   

One needs to be VERY careful in an unpaid all volunteer organization on using the "stick" approach versus the 'carrot' approach.   I think most "Commanders" (those mature adults placed in a leadership role) in CAP are very much attuned that treating all with respect and having an adult conversation with a member that has gone astray is the best approach rather than an LOA/LOR, adverse action file establishment.  Most leaders ask the member to do something, they don't tell (order) them and will likely also find out if there's any issues with getting done what they've asked to get done  (Why get surprised later ).   Please cite any other organization that gives it's unpaid volunteers letters of admonishment or letters of reprimand and keeps an adverse action file.  Again more "wanna bee BS" that the NB will spend lots of time on, that is likely unnecessary.   HOWEVER, I don't necessarily disagree with a written counseling signed by the member, especially IF the next step is to 2B the individual.  Also if someone is spoken to about a serious CAP regulation/policy infraction, there's nothing to prevent one from writing up a Memo for The Record on the verbal discussion and filing it.   

I will say it again -- I think some of you really live in a fantasy world of military make believe.  The organization will move forward only by properly recruiting, training, placing (in appropriate positions), and motivating the unpaid adult "civilian" volunteer force. 
RM