Prospective Physically Handicapped Members Access to Squadron?

[lordmonar]

In my non-lawer opinion we either fall in the private club category......AND we do not fit any of the 12 categories cited in para III 1-2000.

[lordmonar]

And from the ADA link provided.

Are public accommodations required to retrofit existing buildings by adding elevators? A public accommodation generally would not be required to remove a barrier to physical access posed by a flight of steps, if removal would require extensive ramping or an elevator. The readily achievable standard does not require barrier removal that requires extensive restructuring or burdensome expense. Thus, where it is not readily achievable to do, the ADA would not require a public accommodation to provide access to an area reachable only by a flight of stairs.

So....there you go....even if we are a public accommodation.....most units would be covered under the burdenson expense rule.   If you assume that most units only have a few hundred to a few thousand dollars in their coffers....even a $1000 ramp job could be considered a burdensome expense.

[PHall]

Wouldn't want the law, the regulations, or the facts get in the way of the discussion.  Here's the federal government's compliance manual for public accommodations: http://www.ada.gov/taman3.html

Non-applicable.....CAP is not a public accommodation.

Please cite me to the law, regulation, or case law (or even a law journal article) that says that.  I'm not saying you're wrong, I'd just like a citation so I know where to go for an answer if or when this comes up under my watch.  If you're thinking CAP falls under the "private club" provisions, I think that would be a specious argument.  But I'm here to learn.  Education me.  Thanks.

Or you could provide a little case law on any ADA lawsuits against CAP or even the Air Force.

[tdepp]

In my non-lawer opinion we either fall in the private club category......AND we do not fit any of the 12 categories cited in para III 1-2000.

Lord:

Thanks for the reference.  I think you make a good point.  I'm going to repost the section from the fed's ADA manual that you're referring to so our players at home can follow along:

III-1.2000 Public accommodations. The broad range of title III obligations relating to "places of public accommodation" must be met by entities that the Department of Justice regulation labels as "public accommodations. " In order to be considered a public accommodation with title III obligations, an entity must be private and it must --

    Own;

    Lease;

    Lease to; or

    Operate

    a place of public accommodation.

    What is a place of public accommodation? A place of public accommodation is a facility whose operations --

    Affect commerce; and

    Fall within at least one of the following 12 categories:

        1) Places of lodging (e.g. , inns, hotels, motels) (except for owner-occupied establishments renting fewer than six rooms);

        2) Establishments serving food or drink (e.g. , restaurants and bars);

        3) Places of exhibition or entertainment (e.g. , motion picture houses, theaters, concert halls, stadiums);

        4) Places of public gathering (e.g. , auditoriums, convention centers, lecture halls);

        5) Sales or rental establishments (e.g. , bakeries, grocery stores, hardware stores, shopping centers);

        6) Service establishments (e.g. , laundromats, dry-cleaners, banks, barber shops, beauty shops, travel services, shoe repair services, funeral parlors, gas stations, offices of accountants or lawyers, pharmacies, insurance offices, professional offices of health care providers, hospitals);

        7) Public transportation terminals, depots, or stations (not including facilities relating to air transportation);

        8) Places of public display or collection (e.g. , museums, libraries, galleries);

        9) Places of recreation (e.g. , parks, zoos, amusement parks);

        10) Places of education (e.g. , nursery schools, elementary, secondary, undergraduate, or postgraduate private schools);

        11) Social service center establishments (e.g. , day care centers, senior citizen centers, homeless shelters, food banks, adoption agencies); and

        12) Places of exercise or recreation (e.g. , gymnasiums, health spas, bowling alleys, golf courses).

Can a facility be considered a place of public accommodation if it does not fall under one of these 12 categories? No, the 12 categories are an exhaustive list. However, within each category the examples given are just illustrations. For example, the category "sales or rental establishments" would include many facilities other than those specifically listed, such as video stores, carpet showrooms, and athletic equipment stores.

What if a private entity operates, or leases space to, many different types of facilities, of which only relatively few are places of public accommodation? Is the whole private entity still a public accommodation? The entire private entity is, legally speaking, a public accommodation, but it only has ADA title III obligations with respect to the operations of the places of public accommodation.

I think an argument could me made that CAP could fall under 4, 10, and 11 above, based on our status and missions.  But your point of view is not unreasonable either that we don't fit. 

I would be interested in knowing if there has been litigation against CAP or at least a charge of discrimination filed based on accessibility via the ADA 

To everyone who has commented on this subject, I want to thank you.  It has given me a lot to think about and research when I get a few free minutes.  And Lord, thanks for responding in the spirit in which I asked.

[tsrup]

  But I'm here to learn.  Education me.  Thanks.

Well first lesson, it's "Educate"..

[tdepp]

  But I'm here to learn.  Education me.  Thanks.

Well first lesson, it's "Educate"..

Rup:
Next time I see you, no free beer for you! 
Thanks for the catch.  I'll make the change.

[tdepp]

Wouldn't want the law, the regulations, or the facts get in the way of the discussion.  Here's the federal government's compliance manual for public accommodations: http://www.ada.gov/taman3.html

Non-applicable.....CAP is not a public accommodation.

Please cite me to the law, regulation, or case law (or even a law journal article) that says that.  I'm not saying you're wrong, I'd just like a citation so I know where to go for an answer if or when this comes up under my watch.  If you're thinking CAP falls under the "private club" provisions, I think that would be a specious argument.  But I'm here to learn.  Educate me.  Thanks.

My corrected version thanks to the Rupster.

[Rotorhead]

I recent took over the PAO function for the squadron. 

How can someone with such a demonstrated dislike for Civil Air Patrol be tasked to represent it?

[Eclipse]

[tdepp]

I recent took over the PAO function for the squadron. 

How can someone with such a demonstrated dislike for Civil Air Patrol be tasked to represent it?

I guess I'm not seeing how RM is a hater on CAP.  I think he voiced a valid concern about handicap accessibility to our meetings (or at least his/her squadron's meetings).   And what the rest of our were trying to sort out was what, if any legal responsibility, does CAP have to comply with the ADA.  And others of us, including RM said, regardless of the ADA, shouldn't we strive to be accessible?  Others pointed out the costs of compliance or adaptation of facilities.  All good points in rebuttal. 

I thought RM started a healthy discussion that members have reasonably commented on, even those with whom I disagree.

[necigrad]

..and just what is the matter with "here, we can carry you up/in/out/whatever?" anyway?

Working for a major airline, I can say I have firsthand experience in doing this.  It sucks.  Some people are quite heavy, some people can't carry loads (especially up stairs).  It's also VERY scary for the person being carried.  Airlines are (to my knowledge) no longer doing this for these reasons, plus the liability of the person being dropped.

The bottom line is that the law is murky at best.  Consult with your Wing LO.  Let them decide what to do and take the heat for that decision.  In the mean time I'd not worry about it until the problem comes up.  At the worst you can explain the problem (it's never been a problem so far), offer your apologies, and be quite emphatic that you WANT this person as a member and will work with them and CAP to see if a good solution can be reached.

[Rotorhead]

I recent took over the PAO function for the squadron. 

How can someone with such a demonstrated dislike for Civil Air Patrol be tasked to represent it?

I guess I'm not seeing how RM is a hater on CAP. 

Check out his "body of comments" on this board over the last couple of years or so.
You'll see what I mean.

[RADIOMAN015]

How can someone with such a demonstrated dislike for Civil Air Patrol be tasked to represent it?

I guess I'm not seeing how RM is a hater on CAP. 

Check out his "body of comments" on this board over the last couple of years or so.
You'll see what I mean.

I'm sure I will do a fine job as the unit's PAO :angel:

To a certain extent I've "baited" the forums since joining, BUT my purpose is to spark serious debate. :angel:

I've come to understand those that have a very strong interest in purchasing wearing AF type uniforms (I think you will find an apology to what I so called termed "wannabees" in my more recent posts.

So what is, is and life inside & outside CAP goes on

RM

[heliodoc]

Scott

Just because someone has an opinion on CAPTalk, the world's reknown source on alll things CAP.......

RADIOMAN or just about anyone can (provide the training) can become a great PAO....they are not born......

I attended FEMA's G290 Basic PIO Course approx 3weeks ago myself..........once you know a script, once you know the mission/ incident, anyone and I mean anyone can get in front of a camera or write a news release with  all the  5W's and 1H and review it before going to press

Now whether or not someone stays PAO or not...that's another story.  But with all the "JOBS " in CAP....why not try and see what one is good at?

You saying RADIOMAN can not or should not serve as a CAP PAO type?  Sounds like a challenge to me, my man

We and I ought be looking out for good work from that guy.  Opinions on CAPtalk do not necessarily reflect the true ability of a individual, whatsoever.....sound like some "corporate or lawyer type " disclaimers,eh?

CAPTalk.....where sensitivities to CAP run at an unnecessarily high OPTEMPO