Just a Suggestion ... to solicit some discussion

[Chaplaindon]

Considering that I have consistently called for (debated for) uniformity in CAP uniforms, I have another suggestion for discussion.

As an active ES participant in a variety of mission specialties, I see a shortcoming of our non-BDU/BBU/flight suit uniforms for mission and day-to-day service dress options. Whether the USAF "class-B," of the new corporate "blues" or "grays," I think that they are inadequate for wear for mission staff work. Some might argue that staff should wear BDU/BBU/FS instead, however most of the SAREX/EVALs that I have attended require the staff to wear a class-b-type of uniform. Sadly there is neither uniformity in the style of uniform (USAF blues, corp blues, corp grays, golf shirt, etc.) making the staff look anything but uniform.

Furthermore, the USAF and/or corp blue/grays are problematic for such operational wear. They show dust and dirt ever so readily. They wrinkle very easily. They can be uncomfortable in heat (lots of bases near me lack adequate A/C, if they have it at all). And the mix of uniforms makes us look un-uniform and there-in, unprofessional.

My suggestion: make a functional "operational" uniform that all SMs (IMHO, cadets need to remain in the USAF/CAP uniform for reasons of their mission) regardless of H/W could wear. I would suggest that the 1950's-1960's USAF Khaki uniform modified for the 21st century would make a lot of sense.

Wear a poly/cotton (permanent press) khaki (short or long sleeve) collared shirt (no epaulets) with khaki trousers (with permanent creases). Wear the blue USAF belt with bright buckle, blue USAF flight cap with grade IAW the new corporate uniform standards (w/ fullsize metal grade), hard MINIATURE metal grade insignia on the collars, and the new blue 2-line name tag. Black shoes and socks.

This uniform would be handsome, professional and functional for mission base wear, squadron meetings, and other functions where the so-called "class-B" uniform would normally be worn.

It would be both functional and comfortable and likely easy wear, pack and care for in "the field."

Above all it would make the SMs look professional and uniform. And uniformity adds significant efficiency to an operation (hence the reason the military wears them).

Just a suggestion for discussion.

[Al Sayre]

Sounds OK, but I'm not sure about the Blue Belt, I think Khaki would look better.  Unfortunately, someone would probably mistake us for Naval Officers and we'd be in trouble with two services over uniforms...

[Chaplaindon]

The blue belt (worn IAW the USAF khaki uniform conventions of the 1950's and early 60's) would help differentiate.

And the blue against the khaki --believe it or not-- is quite handsome.

[AlphaSigOU]

Now THAT'S a good idea, Chaplaindon... but ya know since the NB/NEC didn't suggest it, it ain't gonna fly!

[mikeylikey]

For those members sitting at the base camp, mission TOC or wherever supporting a mission in an administrative or support role, why cant we just say "here's the CAP polo shirt (whatever color is decided), get some khaki trousers, and wear brown or black shoes.  To make everyone happy, they can wear their own belt as long a it is black or brown with a Conservative silver buckle.  Then if you need to identify who is in charge  or for identification you get the new picture id card, attach a lanyard or clip to it and wear it on your shirt.  Lets think in terms of being comfortable.

[Chaplaindon]

Mikey,

My concern with a strictly "comfort-based" paradigm for uniforms has to do with professionalism. IMHO the golf shirt "uniform" belongs on the golfcourse or perhaps --at BEST-- as a hot weather flying (ONLY) uniform, particularly suited to non-SAR/DR flying (e.g. glider flights or powered O-Flights). Comfort is, to my mind, only one of several elements that should be considered for selecting an (my term) "operational staff uniform (OSU)"

I think we would present a VERY UN-professional look if --for example-- our IC did his/her media or family briefing looking like s/he just finished the back-9 at LaCosta.

A military "style" uniform that is easy to maintain, comfortable to wear, and can be worn by ALL SMs regardless of H/W issues (e.g. a real UNIFORM) is why the khaki OSU seems to make sense. With all of the new wringle-free, high cotton content khaki fabrics on the market (e.g. "Dockers") a very comfy yet professiona/military uniform could be produced that would meet those goals.

Good discussion ...

[Becks]

My concern with a strictly "comfort-based" paradigm for uniforms has to do with professionalism. IMHO the golf shirt "uniform" belongs on the golfcourse or perhaps --at BEST-- as a hot weather flying (ONLY) uniform

....a very comfy yet professiona/military uniform could be produced that would meet those goals.

I agree whole heartedly sir, you have brought up some great points.  Also I personally love the look of the old khaki uniforms, and to me they seem more versatile for wear.  Living in SC I must say the blue's pants get hot pretty quickly, khaki would be an easy solution to this.
You could just adapt the Navy or Marine Corps khaki's couldnt you?
EDIT: I got bored and played with a couple navy uniforms so people can see what blue and khaki/tan looks like.

[Chaplaindon]

Drew,

Thanks for the illustrations. I wish I could do that.

I would certainly consider simply "borrrowing" the USN/USMC/NOAA/USPHS khakis and then adding the CAP blue accessories. That would save money and development time.

I likely would suggest that ribbons NOT be worn --this is to be an "operational" uniform, however badges could/should be worn (e.g. wings, GTM badge, qual badges, chaplain badge, commander badge, etc.). 
However, Unless there was a significant outcry to the contrary, I wouldn't have the skirt be part of the uniform. Males and females would wear trousers.

A V-Neck T-Shirt would look better too ... IMHO.

I might even suggest a black "wooly-pully" sweater as a cold-weather option along with a khaki waist-length jacket with metal grade on the shoulder epaulets.

Chap Don

[MIKE]

My concern with a strictly "comfort-based" paradigm for uniforms has to do with professionalism. IMHO the golf shirt "uniform" belongs on the golfcourse or perhaps --at BEST-- as a hot weather flying (ONLY) uniform, particularly suited to non-SAR/DR flying (e.g. glider flights or powered O-Flights). Comfort is, to my mind, only one of several elements that should be considered for selecting an (my term) "operational staff uniform (OSU)"

I dunno... I think the golf shirt might be the thing for this sitution...  Take a look at some of the FEMA or HLS people doing press briefings more or less on-site.  What are they wearing... Golf shirts!

Quick fix:  Use the existing blue golf shirt with the embroidered seal... I'm not so keen on the other embroidery options, it would be cheaper and more uniform to leave off the wings etc.  I don't think the gray slacks look good, prefer that you'd go with khaki/tan BDU trousers (Maybe the existing blue ones) worn with the blue BDU belt un-bloused over normal shoes.

[mikeylikey]

My concern with a strictly "comfort-based" paradigm for uniforms has to do with professionalism. IMHO the golf shirt "uniform" belongs on the golfcourse or perhaps --at BEST-- as a hot weather flying (ONLY) uniform, particularly suited to non-SAR/DR flying (e.g. glider flights or powered O-Flights). Comfort is, to my mind, only one of several elements that should be considered for selecting an (my term) "operational staff uniform (OSU)"

I dunno... I think the golf shirt might be the thing for this situation...  Take a look at some of the FEMA or HLS people doing press briefings more or less on-site.  What are they wearing... Golf shirts!

Quick fix:  Use the existing blue golf shirt with the embroidered seal... I'm not so keen on the other embroidery options, it would be cheaper and more uniform to leave off the wings etc.  I don't think the gray slacks look good. prefer that you'd go with khaki/tan BDU trousers (Maybe the existing blue ones) worn with the blue BDU belt un-bloused over normal shoes.

I would have to agree.  I do see the need for this type of uniform that Chaplaindon has presented.  However, like they do in the business world, dress casual if you do not interact with anyone inside the office, throw on a tie when you interact with people outside the office.  It is all about appearance.  I certainly don't want to wear my dress clothes when all I do is sit at my desk, but then again, I do keep a tie and a nice dress shirt ready in case I have to leave my desk.
  I say reserve the "military" looking uniforms for people that will be interacting with the government agencies, local communities or general public.  Then again, if we did that then it would defeat the purpose of "being uniform".  Just my simple opinion.  Anyway, NHQ probably has the next change in the works.

[Chaplaindon]

Mike,

Thanks for your insight. I disagree about FEMA and DHS.

Based upon the demonstrated performance of many of the FEMA/DHS bureaucrats during Katrina/Rita --like good-ol' "Brownie"-- I am not sure I want to equate their appearance/uniforms with a paradigm of professionalism and/or operational efficiency.

It was the military ... and DHS' armed services "wing," the USCG, that excelled during the recovery. Frankly, I'd rather look like the military than some golf shirt wearing bureaucrat.

Additonally, as CAP must interact with the real-life armed services from the USAF 9at our SAREX' and EVALs to the NG and USCG, etc. during a disaster, having a military appearance would IMHO be useful and expeditous operationally.

[MIKE]

It was the military ... and DHS' armed services "wing," the USCG, that excelled during the recovery. Frankly, I'd rather look like the military than some golf shirt wearing bureaucrat.

I think there is a case for not looking like the military for the people back at mission base. YMMV.

BTW: The military... like ADM Allen etc were wearing the appropriate utility uniforms (ODU, BDU, ACU) or bags.  If CAP wants to be like the military then we should be wearing the Field Uniform, BDUs or bags as appropriate, and leave the dress uniforms at home. 

Really... if the mission base area is less than completely sterile... I'm wearing BDUs.

[Chaplaindon]

Mike,

I agree with you fundamentally. I would wear BDU myself, if I were at a forward deployed base.

That having been said, far more time and mandays are expended in training events that routinely prohibit the wear of BDU/FS for staff members -- the rationale escapes me, but those are the rules. In addition we have classroom training events and weekly meetings (all in support of the missions of CAP).

We need a uniform that is uniform, that all SMs can wear. It is unrealistic to expect that all SMs will reduce their weight such that it meets USAF enlistment H/W standards (+10%) so we will not be uniform in the USAF blues.

Furthermore, the CAP Corporate Blues/Grays are, as I proffered above, maintenance intensive ... and INHO needlessly so.

The Khakis are/would be:

1. Military in appearance.
2. Readily available (presuming the "borrowing" of the USN/USMC/NOAA/USPHS uniforms and modifying them to CAP distinctiveness).
3. Cooler (lighter in color and more reflective of light) than the blues and ESPECIALLY the dark colored BDUs which can be stiffling.
4. Don't show dirt/dust/scuffs as readily.
5. Reflective of the historic uniforms of CAP (e.g. WWII coastal patrol) and the USAF/USAAF (WWII thru early Vietnam). It seems that the USAF Uniform Board is considering a nostalgic (IMHO UNSIGHTLY) "Hap Arnold" uniform that echoes WWII (and before) styles. CAP would be doing the same.
6. All of our SMs could wear this uniform thus providing actual UNIFORMITY.

Just the sort of discussion I was seeking, lets hear from others.

Chap Don

[AlphaSigOU]

I like the idea of a distinctive operational khaki uniform Chaplaindon suggested... white shirts are magnets for dirt or other schmutz that will quickly ruin them. BDUs and CAP DFUs are great for ground teams, green or blue zoom bags keep the zipper-suited sun gods happy.

IIRC (and youse Navy guys can correct me if I'm wrong ) there are two types of Navy khakis - CNTs (Certified Navy Twill) and a doubleknit polyester.

[Al Sayre]

AlphaSigOU is right about the two types.  IIRC, on board ship, the Officers and Chiefs wore the CNT, and the doubleknit polyester uniforms (a material I generally hate with a passion) were worn ashore and in shore duty billets where "looking good" was a priority.  The CNT has to be ironed and starched to look good, but IMHO it is a much more comfortable uniform.

[ZigZag911]

I offered the khaki suggestion (on another thread here) as an alternative to the new corporate uniform recently adopted by NEC.....back in my early cadet days, it was still USAF & CAP summer uniform.

Based on that experience, I can tell you, Chaplain, that light tan is not significantly easier to keep clean than white....and much more difficult than gray!

While uniformity is great, we do have a variety of operational functions; flight suits are appropriate for aircrew, BDUs for ground teams.  Mission managers (and UDF teams) are another story...generally the management team will wear whatever fits the individual's 'other' mission specialty (Flight suit or BDUs, as appropriate)....

[Chaplaindon]

I think I would recommend a two-step process --if CAP ever got around to approving this hypothetical khaki uniform-- to enact its wear.

Step 1 ... Wear he USN/etc. CNT khaki uniform for the short-term.

Step 2 ... Have Vanguard (or someone) manufacture a USN khaki look-a-like uniform (or USAF 1950's-60's khaki look-a-like) uniform in a high percentage cotton blend (no-iron) with permanent creases. Perhaps a "Dockers-like" no-iron twill, just for the durability of the fabric.

That would ensure that you have the comfort of the CNT khakis without the mandatory ironing and starching. The fabric technology exists to create an attractive/professional-looking, easy-care non-doubleknit (ick!) khaki uniform.But that might take a year or so.

Having the exisiting CNT USN/etc. uniforms as a 1-2 year option would be helpful.

Thanks for the info Al.

[thefischNX01]

Personally, i would just go for the khaki shirt against the blues pants and belt.  Not a drastic change, but different enough to be noticed. 

[arajca]

Personally, i would just go for the khaki shirt against the blues pants and belt.  Not a drastic change, but different enough to be noticed. 

I'd be more incline to support something like this, rather than a full khaki uniform. It's less money for the member to lay out. On the shirt, minimal bling - grade insignia, name plate, one aeronautical/GT/EMT/Chaplain badge. That's it. The command badge shouldn't be worn because it would be misleading - the IC may not a a unit commander.

Use a stain resistant fabric to help keep it clean. Most of the time, the dust/dirt that get on my white shirts tends to be tan or light brown so on a khaki shirt, it'd be less visible.

[BillB]

The 1960's khaki 1505 uniform required little if any ironing. And it was worn with blue flight cap, blue belt and black shoes.  Basically it was a summer weight uniform and thus the current USAF blue windbreaker could be worn with it without it looking 100% like an USAF uniform. The uniform has either skirt or pants for females.
The first khaki uniform for CAP was authorized right after CAP was organized, so CAP being in a khaki uniform takes us back to our roots.

[thefischNX01]

I was at the Ft. Dix AAFES today, and lo and behold, they carry Navy Khaki uniforms.  Switching over to the Khaki then shouldn't be a big deal.  They even sell metal pin-on rank insignia there too.  Easy change?  I think so...

[Chaplaindon]

As to the suggestion that the new OSU (CAP "1505's") be stain resistant. I think that is an excellent point.

To that end, I am aware that several clothing manufacturers offer a Teflon stain resistant finish to the khaki pants and slacks (Levi's Dockers, for one).

Such a finish would be ideal for the OSU further reducing the burden to the wearer.

Good point.

Ch Don.

[arajca]

Having some down time...

here are some quick renderings of a khaki over blue CAP OSU:

I included a bloused version because we al know someone is going to do it if we use the bbdu pants.

Devices are:
grade insignia on collar
command pilot wings (example)
two line blue nameplate
That's it.

[Chaplaindon]

Nice renderings Andrew, thanks.

My observations are these:

1. That the blue trousers are going to be the same troublesome ones we have now (scuff and show dirt readily), are hot, and wrinkle too easily.
2. I think BDU pants wouldn't look good with this combo. That said, they might if they were a khaki BDU shirt to match fabric and style.
3. The dark trousers would be hotter (BDU or USAF dress) than a lighter color khaki.
4. I like the "minimalist" wearing of insignia as drawn.

Can you do similar renderings in all-khaki?

Thanks

Ch. Don

[MIKE]

I think it looks too Marineish.

[thefischNX01]

What if we used this shirt:

http://www.sullivanuniforms.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=SU&Product_Code=SP66&Category_Code=Security+Uniforms

[arajca]

I want to clear a few things up:

What is the prupose of this uniform:
1. to provide a work uniform for mission base staff?

2. to provide a single unifying uniform for SM, regardless of h/w & g?

3. to replace all other CAP uniforms for SM's?

4. Other???

[arajca]

Nice renderings Andrew, thanks.

My observations are these:

1. That the blue trousers are going to be the same troublesome ones we have now (scuff and show dirt readily), are hot, and wrinkle too easily.

A navy blue work pant instead of dress pants takes care of this issue.

2. I think BDU pants wouldn't look good with this combo. That said, they might if they were a khaki BDU shirt to match fabric and style.

A two pocket bdu shirt in khaki would look good. Use sew-on insignia instead of pin on. (see below) Better idea for a work uniform. (You don't have to worry aout stuff getting caught of being pulled off.)

3. The dark trousers would be hotter (BDU or USAF dress) than a lighter color khaki.

Depends on where you are. If you're inside at a mission base, they're all about the same. If you're outside in the field, bdu's/bbdu's are worn.

4. I like the "minimalist" wearing of insignia as drawn.

I like it for work (bdu, bbdu, etc) uniforms. On service and dress uniforms, I prefer some blingage.

Can you do similar renderings in all-khaki?

A full khaki uniform reminds folks of the Navy, not the AF (history not withstanding).

I think it looks too Marineish.

It still looks good. When most people think of Marine uniforms they picture 1. the black dress uniform w/choker collar, 2. MARPAT camo, or 3. the green 'Class A' with khaki shirt. Very few folks associate this setup with the Marines.

If something like this were to come around, would the other corporate uniforms go away? How about the field uniform? Does this open the door for the CA GSAR uniform to be nationally accepted?

IMO, khaki over blue is more visually appealing than straight khaki.

[thefischNX01]

I would stick with the woodland cammo personally, and go with bloused boots but overall very nice :clap:

I almost wish I had bought the Navy Khaki Shirt today so i could take a few pictures

And to answer your question arajca, I would like the uniform proposed to take the slot of both the Air Force Blues and the corporate uniform equivalents.  Besides, i think this is a lot better than what the NEC came up with...

[MIKE]

I think it looks too Marineish.

It still looks good. When most people think of Marine uniforms they picture 1. the black dress uniform w/choker collar, 2. MARPAT camo, or 3. the green 'Class A' with khaki shirt. Very few folks associate this setup with the Marines.

I'm not most people... Sorry. 

[arajca]

I would stick with the woodland cammo personally, and go with bloused boots but overall very nice :clap:

I almost wish I had bought the Navy Khaki Shirt today so i could take a few pictures

And to answer your question arajca, I would like the uniform proposed to take the slot of both the Air Force Blues and the corporate uniform equivalents.  Besides, i think this is a lot better than what the NEC came up with...

What about a dress uniform? The current CAP/Naval attache uniform?

Following a common color scheme for uniforms for SM's:
Service uniforms:
Khaki shirt, blue dress pants, AF style epaulet grade insignia, blue two line nameplate, max of two badges above left pocket or one above and one on the pocket*, no ribbons, Command Badge above name plate (for sitting unit/group commanders only), blue flight cap w/grade, khaki tie for long sleeve shirt ONLY
Work:
khaki two pocket bdu blouse (long or short sleeve) w/ name and CAP tapes, embriodered grade insignia, max of two embriodered badges above CAP tape, and CAP emblem on left shoulder. Blue bdu trousers, bloused w/combat boots (or navy blue work pants, unbloused w/black plain toe shoes).
sage green/navy blue flight suit (we ain't gonna get the zipper-suited sky gods out of them) only for flying activities
Dress:
CAP Service Dress (double breasted w/bling) or khaki service dress (4 pocket, w/bling)
CAP formal dress (black tux w/bling)

* the specialty track badge one the pocket shall be for the position you are currently filling, i.e. Admin Off wears Admin, CDC wears CP, etc. Not Admin wears Master Ops because it's his highest rating (unless he's also Ops Off)

[Chaplaindon]

Although being from the "Tropics," I like the idea of a twill or gabardine khaki Class-A "overblouse," I would be happy to stick with the exisiting (well, new) NEC-approved service dress (class-A) or USAF class-A (in blue) as long as we had a functional "working" uniform that wasn't BDU/BBDU. Excellent renderings anyway Andrew. Thanks.

Ch. Don

[BillB]

I haven't seen a khaki shirt and blue pants combination since ohh  about 3 hours ago. I was at a supermarket and a marine recruiter was just leaving wearing khaki shirt and blue pants.
The Khaki shirt and pants combination has been around since the 1930's for the Army, and Air Corps. It's a uniform people are familiar with. Since it would be a corporate uniform, it might be the ideal work uniform for seniors as well as cadets. The shirt and pants can be bought for less that a new BDU shirt, so cost shouldn't be a factor.

[ZigZag911]

I think it looks too Marines.

I agree, it looks very much like one of the  Marine uniforms (not sure what their term for this combination is, back in the Dark Ages WIWAC we would have described it as Class B. which I understand is no longer proper nomenclature!)

[arajca]

What if we used this shirt:

http://www.sullivanuniforms.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=SU&Product_Code=SP66&Category_Code=Security+Uniforms

The problem with that shirt is it has two reinforced holes above the left breast pocket (badge tab). Otherwise, it would work.

[MIKE]

I think it looks too Marines.

I agree, it looks very much like one of the  Marine uniforms (not sure what their term for this combination is, back in the Dark Ages WIWAC we would have described it as Class B. which I understand is no longer proper nomenclature!)

Blue Dress "C" or Blue Dress "D" depending on long or short sleeve khaki shirt respectively.

[Zonekeeper]

I like the ideas, but national has just got done making us a new uniform and I doubt they'll add yet another. (then again... this IS national, and we might be able to convince them while they're on this little uniform binge of theirs) anyway, I say we start small, like authorizing the two-pocket bdu shirt for the blue BDUs to be tucked in. It'll look presentable while allowing us to not make any major changes to 39-1. Don't get me wrong, I love the idea of a khaki uniform, but I think we're approaching this the wrong way. Perhaps we can get them to make a tan BDU combo that can coexist with the blue BDU, and use the same insignia placement. With the two pocket shirt, it won't look too different from some of the combos already proposed, and it would be a godsend to those of us in warmer climates. The colorful insignia we wear would also look much better on the tan, in my opinion. If we wanted one that would match the current uniforms a bit better, replace tan with grey. We already have a blue and grey version of the same uniform (aviator combo and new corporates), so why not do it with the field uniform? We could be uniform in the sense that we have a running color theme in our corporate uniforms (blue and grey) Sorry if I'm rambling, but I just had a few ideas to get of my chest. In summary: allow tuck-in 2-pocket shirt for BBDUs, add tan/grey version of BBDUs for oldschool look/comfort in hot weather environments.

[Al Sayre]

If national really wanted to provide us with a good "corporate work uniform", they could best serve the membership by picking clothing that can be purchased at the local Kmart or Walmart, such as the "Dickies" brand work shirts and pants(I'll let others argue the color part), and adding our name tapes and other patches etc. to make them stand out.  I know the Coast Guard was doing this for their dark blue work uniforms when I was in the Navy in the 80's (today?). 

That way a member doesn't have to find USAF hand-me-downs or drive a couple hundred miles to the nearest base, or wait for Hock Shop or Vanguard to get an order put together and shipped. 

Really, why do we need BDU's (pick a color/pattern) at all? We aren't supposed to load up all those extra pockets anyway, so why have 'em?

The dark blue work uniforms would look reasonably good with the Ultramarine tapes and either metal or cloth grade insigna would also look fine.  They are cheap, easily obtained, stain and spill resistant, some are even fireproofed(resistant), can be ironed, tucked in, bloused or not. etc.  They also come in Khaki, so you make the call...   

[shorning]

If national really wanted to provide us with a good "corporate work uniform", they could best serve the membership by picking clothing that can be purchased at the local Kmart or Walmart, such as the "Dickies" brand work shirts and pants(I'll let others argue the color part), and adding our name tapes and other patches etc. to make them stand out.  I know the Coast Guard was doing this for their dark blue work uniforms when I was in the Navy in the 80's (today?). 

Actually, that's not a bad idea.  When possible, COTS is definately the way to go.  I don't think it would ever fly, but not a bad idea.

[afgeo4]

Ok, someone please explain to me how the khaki utility uniform would serve SAR teams better than the navy blue current distinctive utility or the bdu?

I think it'd be more relevant to stick with the dark blue version and come 2011 (the mandatory wear date for USAF ABU's), eliminate the BDU by attrition of course.  A 2 pocket version would keep it more in line with the ABU, but in the end, who cares???

The khaki dress combination is an amazing idea though and it is very functional, historical and sharp looking.  I prefer it with the blue pants myself.  I think it just looks better with the belt and the flight cap.  I think the epaulettes should stay just like in the army/air force.  We should stay away from USN/USMC type of insignia.  Epaulettes don't require much maintenance and aren't going to get in the way of ICs' work.  Maybe we could use the current white shirt combo USAF epaulettes for that?  The current USAF flight caps should stay as well, but with pin-on grade insignia on the left side.  In terms of ribbons...   Let's pretend we're all adults here and not regulate when one should wear them.   If you think your ribbons will get dirty while you're doing SAR work, leave 'em at home.  If you don't and you're proud of what you've done, put 'em on.  Heck, there's nothing unprofessional about wearing them.  And I honestly don't know whether the wear of military ribbons should or should not be authorized for this.   I am former USAF enlisted and even I find myself not wearing AF ribbons on my CAP blues (too many ribbons to wear and replace when frayed.)

Can we make a proposal and send it to NHQ for them to bring up at the next Uniform Board?   How could it hurt? 

[Becks]

Ok, someone please explain to me how the khaki utility uniform would serve SAR teams better than the navy blue current distinctive utility or the bdu?

The khaki was proposed for the mission base personnel, not the actual SAR team in the field.

[NIN]

The khaki was proposed for the mission base personnel, not the actual SAR team in the field.

Wow, that's awesome!  I mean, ANOTHER uniform!  That's EXACTLY what is needed!  While they're at it, why not make it more distinctive: add a beret!

[ZigZag911]

Here's my idea:

1) some version of the khaki (long sleeve/short sleeve, epaulets  on shirt, with dress coat available) as senior dress uniform...for all seniors (no more USAF -- it would reduce a lot of tension between CAP and our parent service if our adult members stopped looking like the regular Air Force, sort of, after a fashion)

2) blue BDUs for all

3) one color flight suit, whatever we can get in Nomex that the Air Force doesn't use

4) cadets dress combinations continue to be USAF-style; at worst, they are mistaken for AFJROTC

Phase this in at same time as/in place of ABU (2011 or later, i thought I saw)

[shorning]

Here's a strange idea:  put the mission base staff in BDUs or the field uniforms.  That being said, there is no reason you can't look presentable in a utility uniform while working mission base.  If you're worried about "dressing up" to work mission base then you've lost focus on the mission. 

[ZigZag911]

Agreed.

[Chaplaindon]

Sorry about my silence, I was "lurking" out-of-town using my Palm Pilot and was unable to reply.

IMHO we need to make our personnel UNIFORM. That will mean either that the USAF "gives" on it's H/W standards or CAP adopts --at least a SM-- uniform that everyone can and then MUST wear. Since I doubt our "cousins" in the USAF are going to budge on anything that appears to benefit anyone in CAP beyond the age of recruitment (if then), CAP needs to do the moving and for the sake of operational efficiency get rid of the "rainbow" of uniform colors, styles, and markings and adopt UNIFORMITY in its uniforms. CAP's current use of the word "uniform" in any sentence describing the apparel worn by our personnel is essentially an oxymoron.

Getting rid of the USAF uniforms would doubtless anger some in our SM ranks, although I suspect that the people most angered are those most likely to be "playing air force" and not being altruistic community and national servants. Some would "squawk," others hopefully would seen the benefits of looking like a team. Who knows, if we began looking like a team (instead of a bunch of would-be debutantes trying to avoid wearing the same gown to the ball) we just MIGHT begin to act like a team.

IMHO, the blue service dress which is IGNORANTLY specified explicitly by several wings for wear at inapropriate times (cf: mission staff at a SAREX/EVAL) is not an easy uniform to wear, keep clean, or travel with ... especially to remote sites. The khaki uniform was thus proposed as a simplification of all of the non-USAF uniforms. It is easy care. It is attractive and professional. It is historic recalling an earlier period in both CAP and the USAF/USAAF, etc. It is distinctive from the USAF uniforms so as to prevent someone from mistakenly saluting one of us (the HORROR of such a thought ... ).

BTW, I cannot find ANY regulation REQUIRING a CAP SM to salute ANYONE, anytime. It is a suggested courtesy, only. Two "sides" COULD and CAN "play" the non-saluting "game," if need be. Sorry, back to the point ...

The "new-1505's" would replace the grays (can you say ugly -- and even harder to manage and travel with than the blues), the blue/whites (for less FORMAL events), and the polo shirt (which I think MAY be useful in hot weather flying --and soraing) but looks shabby, especially after a few washings. The 1505's would become the "professional working/service" uniform. NOT for wear in the field ... tromping through the mud on a GT, or changing the oil on the 172, but in "mission" (we have 3, you recall ...) work (e.g. classes, squadron meetings, EOC staffing, mission staff, etc.).

This would NOT be the ADDITION of another "color-band" in our uniform "rainbow" but a sensible simplification of uniforms (and the "spectrum") for the sake of the efficiency wrought by uniformity.

I would also ditch the DARK BLUE BBU in favor of a cooler -- and easier to spot from the air-- khaki BDU (perhaps with a blaze orange crew neck t-shirt and baseball cap and/or "boonie" for distinction and visibility).

Again, ditch the USAF uniforms and the uniform "fashion" hodge-podge and SIMPLIFY and DE-USAF-i-fy.

As for the berets, leave those to the Army and the Girl Scouts.

Frankly, I believe that many of the uniform wear problems could be solved in large measure by simpler rules and fewer confusing choices.

An add'l $0.02 worth.

[mikeylikey]

First, CAP PAMPHLET 151 (E).  It goes into saluting.  You are right, it is a suggested courtesy, but so are the military customs regarding saluting. In the customs and courtesies pamphlets and guides of the military branches, saluting is laid out just like CAP's suggestion is, as a suggestion.  However, it is a Custom, and customs tend to be the basis of society.  I surely do not want to look like the idiot military officer and not return the salute of CAP person.  You will find this "customary" of almost every officer in a similar situation.  Anyway, sorry way off course! 

I have to disagree with the need to get rid of the AF uniform.  It is a privilege, one of a very few that the AF has agreed to betstow on the organization.  That is entirely a different topic though.  History was discussed in the previous reply, throughout CAP's history the organization has worn a slightly varied uniform of the current uniform worn by either the Army or Air Force depending on time period.  Going back to Khaki should not be considered "historical" as it is not following in the tradition of over 60 years of existence.  There was not a single time that CAP did not wear a modified variant of the Air Force uniform, other than the short periods when the AF decided to change uniforms and CAP had to play catch up. 

Honestly, no other organization cares what the CAP person is wearing.  All they care about is if they are competant and successful at their job.  Would you care if the FEMA or DHS person was wearing a T-shirt and shorts when they gave you food or water after you just survived a hurricane?  Uniformity has it's place in the Military.  It even has a small presence in CAP, but don't forget we are a civilian organization, and have had a long history of being able to choose what we are going to wear from a wide range of choices. 

Sorry to shoot down any ideas, but lets take what we have, work with it, and focus on becoming better professionals, not better dressed professionals.  I do not think we have seen the last significant changes to the uniforms from National, so I would not be surprised if they announce something very similar to what Chaplaindon has proposed!

[Jerry]

The 1960's khaki 1505 uniform required little if any ironing. And it was worn with blue flight cap, blue belt and black shoes.  Basically it was a summer weight uniform and thus the current USAF blue windbreaker could be worn with it without it looking 100% like an USAF uniform. The uniform has either skirt or pants for females.
The first khaki uniform for CAP was authorized right after CAP was organized, so CAP being in a khaki uniform takes us back to our roots.

Great idea! :clap:

I think the 1505 was a sharp uniform and would certainly be distinct and unique to CAP and solve a lot of the multi-uniform hodge podge we have now!  I remember as a cadet at encampment having them starched and creased to the nines--so much so at parades/reviews, we had to stand in a chair in order to put them on.  And it took a LOT of wriggling to get in them!

But I definitely think the khaki idea should be sent forward and let us  do away with such a large number of uniforms. It's getting so us old heads can't keep up with all of them, and tend NOT to wear one at all just so as not to get scolded about something wrong!


Jerry

[SarDragon]

AlphaSigOU is right about the two types.  IIRC, on board ship, the Officers and Chiefs wore the CNT, and the doubleknit polyester uniforms (a material I generally hate with a passion) were worn ashore and in shore duty billets where "looking good" was a priority.  The CNT has to be ironed and starched to look good, but IMHO it is a much more comfortable uniform.

CNT is NOT authorized for shipboard wear, and hasn't been since before I retired in 1989. They are part synthetic and a fire hazard. Wash khakis are the UOD underway.

[BillB]

Mikey... You're wrong, CAP wore the exact uniform as the USAAF and USAF from 1942 to the late 1960's And it was basically a khaki uniform. (other styles included the 505 and 1505 which were khaki based) The only difference between a CAP uniform and USAAF or USAF was the insignia, Wings, shoulder patch and cutouts and breast patch. There was a period from 1942 late 1943 that CAP did wear the standard USAAF uniform with red epaulets and red sleeve braid on the service coat. So CAP has a long history of wearing khaki uniforms.