Military Service Dress Uniform

[roxysox]

I tried search for this topic already in the forum and couldn't find anything. My question is, for nights that my squadron does "awards and promotions" is there any CAP regulation that prohibits me from wearing my USMC Dress Blues? Under DOD regs being I am a military member that served during a time of war I am allowed to continue to wear my blues in appropriate functions. I would wear my class "B"s being the class "A"s are not a liberty or leave uniform. I don't have the coin yet to pick up the USAF class "B"s yet

[notaNCO forever]

 I've seen CAP/real military members wear military uniforms at CAP functions, so I would assume it's okay.

[MIKE]

CAPM 39-1 Table 1-1.  Note that it states CAP uniform.

[roxysox]

Mike - Thank you, but I did not see in there where it said that military service dress uniform was prohibited was prohibited. All I saw that Table 1-1 offered was when CAP uniforms where perscribed. If it truly becomes and issue I will wear appropriate civilian attire.

[RiverAux]

Why not wear the appropriate CAP uniform? 

[MIKE]

Mike - Thank you, but I did not see in there where it said that military service dress uniform was prohibited was prohibited. All I saw that Table 1-1 offered was when CAP uniforms where perscribed. If it truly becomes and issue I will wear appropriate civilian attire.

That's just it, if it isn't in there it's not permitted.

[DC]

Why not wear the appropriate CAP uniform? 

See here:

snip..
I don't have the coin yet to pick up the USAF class "B"s yet

[lordmonar]

Okay......

On the one hand.....as a former Marine, you can wear the uniform as the law allows.

On the other hand...you are a member of CAP and should wear a CAP uniform appropriate for the occasion.  I understand that it can be a large expense...but from an organisational stand point you should wear the most appropriate CAP uniform you have or appropriate civilian wear before going to other military uniforms.

This is not stated in the regulations but it is implied in just about every program we run.  Uniforms are supposed to show unity of group.  We already have too many optional unifroms, adding "other" military uniforms just makes that situation worse.

YMMV

[jb512]

And as they say, opinions are like...  well you know how it goes.

CAP does not prohibit you from wearing a U.S. military uniform.  The cadet program has a couple of stipulations, but not when it comes to the type of ceremony that you're talking about.

There's nothing improper about wearing your military uniform no matter how many people in different uniforms show up.

[Flying Pig]

A Veteran wearing a their Marine Corps uniform is 100% acceptable.  It IS NOT prohibited.  The reason CAP regs dont cover it, is because CAP has no authority over it.

A member who chooses to wear the uniform of any branch of the military to a CAP function is 100% acceptable.  I would love for a CAP member to turn away a military/CAP member in uniform showing up to a CAP function.  I have been to many CAP functions, Sq., Group, Wing and National level where CAP members in the military have chosen to wear their military uniform over their CAP uniform.

Adding "other" uniforms just makes the situation worse?  You gott be kidding me.  She isnt talking about adding "other" uniforms, she is talking about wearing her Marine Corps uniform.  It isnt the militarys fault we had a National Commander with a uniform fetish.

Robert Steht
Sgt./USMC 0331, 8152, 8154 (former)
USAR 11B30 (former)

[Trung Si Ma]

That's just it, if it isn't in there it's not permitted.

That's the European way of looking at things.  I was trained the other way - if it is not specifically prohibited, it must be legal.

[lordmonar]

A Veteran wearing a their Marine Corps uniform is 100% acceptable.  It IS NOT prohibited.  The reason CAP regs dont cover it, is because CAP has no authority over it.

A member who chooses to wear the uniform of any branch of the military to a CAP function is 100% acceptable.  I would love for a CAP member to turn away a military/CAP member in uniform showing up to a CAP function.  I have been to many CAP functions, Sq., Group, Wing and National level where CAP members in the military have chosen to wear their military uniform over their CAP uniform.

Adding "other" uniforms just makes the situation worse?  You gott be kidding me.  She isnt talking about adding "other" uniforms, she is talking about wearing her Marine Corps uniform.  It isnt the militarys fault we had a National Commander with a uniform fetish.

Robert Steht
Sgt./USMC 0331, 8152, 8154 (former)
USAR 11B30 (former)

And if she were in my squadron (and I was still commander  ) I would tell her to wear civilian dress.

Nothing against the USMC....just a basic expectation....if you are a member of CAP you are expected to own and maintain a basic set of unifroms.  And this IS stated in 39-1.

If we let SM Roxysox wear her USMC uniform...what do we do when SM Bagofdonuts decides not to wear any uniform or Cadet Highspeed decides he likes his JROTC uniform?

Granted I would not turn her away...but I would have words with her about the image I am trying to set.

CAP most certainly has authority over what uniforms its members wear......and National has delt with this problem before.  I was talking to one of the CAPRAPS about an AD military member who insited on wearing is AD USAF BDUs while working as a CAP member at a NSCA.   Guess what....he wore his CAP uniform.

[MIKE]

That's just it, if it isn't in there it's not permitted.

That's the European way of looking at things.  I was trained the other way - if it is not specifically prohibited, it must be legal.

Not how CAPM 39-1 works.

[PaulR]

A Veteran wearing a their Marine Corps uniform is 100% acceptable.  It IS NOT prohibited.  The reason CAP regs dont cover it, is because CAP has no authority over it.

Agreed Devil Dog!  Wear your dress blues.  You earned it!

It is not like she is wanting to wear her Marine Corps uniform INSTEAD of the CAP uniform.  By noting her signature, she is retired with between 4-8 years of service.  That means a medical retirement from my experience.  That further means that she MAY not be in the best place to pick up all of her uniform items in an expedient manner, as I am sure that her earning potential is not what it used to be.  It is not like the CAP is going to issue her one! 

Unless someone is willing to get her a CAP uniform to wear, she should not get grief for using the uniform she earned the right to don, until she can get the required items. 

Paul
USMC 0331  1990-2

[Timbo]

I understand the law pertaining to wearing Dress Uniforms after discharge by former members to mean only on certain occasions.  Such as certain Federal Holidays, at funerals and weddings, and military gatherings.  Also, you must be "Honorably Discharged", not "General" etc.  Plus I was told that you needed to serve in the Uniformed Services during a declared or undeclared war for anything but JUST training.  If you were booted from Basic or AIT or discharged while in initial training, it is not considered "actively served"

Then there is the issue of ROTC Cadets.  Even if you signed a contract with ROTC but never got Commissioned or went enlisted after ROTC, you can no longer wear the Service Dress.

Also, it is only SERVICE DRESS Uniforms, no PT uniforms, Fatigues, BDU's etc.  

Each Service spells out their version of the federal law in all of their uniform manuals.  

Retirees......that is a totally different and longer post.

Oh and the most recent undeclared war is September 11, 2001 UNTIL ??  The previous undeclared war was 2 decades before that.  (You can find all this info at the VA web page)   

[Flying Pig]

A Veteran wearing a their Marine Corps uniform is 100% acceptable.  It IS NOT prohibited.  The reason CAP regs dont cover it, is because CAP has no authority over it.

A member who chooses to wear the uniform of any branch of the military to a CAP function is 100% acceptable.  I would love for a CAP member to turn away a military/CAP member in uniform showing up to a CAP function.  I have been to many CAP functions, Sq., Group, Wing and National level where CAP members in the military have chosen to wear their military uniform over their CAP uniform.

Adding "other" uniforms just makes the situation worse?  You gott be kidding me.  She isnt talking about adding "other" uniforms, she is talking about wearing her Marine Corps uniform.  It isnt the militarys fault we had a National Commander with a uniform fetish.

Robert Steht
Sgt./USMC 0331, 8152, 8154 (former)
USAR 11B30 (former)

And if she were in my squadron (and I was still commander  ) I would tell her to wear civilian dress.

Nothing against the USMC....just a basic expectation....if you are a member of CAP you are expected to own and maintain a basic set of unifroms.  And this IS stated in 39-1.

If we let SM Roxysox wear her USMC uniform...what do we do when SM Bagofdonuts decides not to wear any uniform or Cadet Highspeed decides he likes his JROTC uniform?

Granted I would not turn her away...but I would have words with her about the image I am trying to set.

CAP most certainly has authority over what uniforms its members wear......and National has delt with this problem before.  I was talking to one of the CAPRAPS about an AD military member who insited on wearing is AD USAF BDUs while working as a CAP member at a NSCA.   Guess what....he wore his CAP uniform.

I would hardly compare a Marine wearing their blues to a JROTC cadet or SM Bagofdonuts.
I love it.   A CAP squadron Commander telling a veteran they werent allowed to wear their military uniform to a CAP function.    :clap:

CAP has authority over CAP uniforms.  Can someone please tell me where CAP has authority over a military veteran appropriately and legally wearing the uniform they are entitled to wear?  We arent talking about a vet wearing the uniform on a daily basis, but one wearing their uniform on special occasions. 

Additionally, A CAPRAP military officer has authority over an active member.....a CAPRAP/military officer has no command authority over a discharged veteran, uniform or not.  Nowhere in CAP does the CAPRAP fall into any chain of command for civilian volunteers.

[PHall]

One small question, what does the Marine Corps Uniform reg say about this?

[Timbo]

Additionally, A CAPRAP military officer has authority over an active member.....a CAPRAP/military officer has no command authority over a discharged veteran, uniform or not.  Nowhere in CAP does the CAPRAP fall into any chain of command for civilian volunteers.

Wait the CAPRAP Officer has authority over Active Duty personell??  So what happens when the CAPRAP is a Captain the CAP member is an AF Major?  Also, the whole oversight by the AF toward the CAP was changed when the laws were changed, making us the sometimes Auxiliary.  They have very limited Scope. 

I think the CAPRAP Officer has authority over the Reserve enlisted CAPRAP's.  Not Anyone and everyone. 

[roxysox]

One small question, what does the Marine Corps Uniform reg say about this?

Directly from MARINE CORPS UNIFORM REGULATIONS
1003. RESTRICTIONS ON WEARING UNIFORMS
1. Members of the Marine Corps and Marine Corps Reserve, including retired
Marines, are prohibited from wearing the Marine Corps uniform while engaged
in any of the following activities, functions or circumstances unless
specifically authorized by the CMC (PA):
a. Soliciting funds for any purpose from the public outside of a
military base or establishment.
b. Participating in any type of show or event which is commercially
sponsored for advertising purposes, where it could be implied or construed
that the Marine Corps "endorses" the product advertised.
c. "Endorsing" commercial products in such ways as to involve the
uniform, title, grade or rate, or in any way establish or imply their
military affiliation with such products.
d. Appearing or participating in any event in public that would
compromise the dignity of the uniform.

[Timbo]

One small question, what does the Marine Corps Uniform reg say about this?

Directly from MARINE CORPS UNIFORM REGULATIONS
1003. RESTRICTIONS ON WEARING UNIFORMS
1. Members of the Marine Corps and Marine Corps Reserve, including retired
Marines, are prohibited from wearing the Marine Corps uniform while engaged
in any of the following activities, functions or circumstances unless
specifically authorized by the CMC (PA):
a. Soliciting funds for any purpose from the public outside of a
military base or establishment.
b. Participating in any type of show or event which is commercially
sponsored for advertising purposes, where it could be implied or construed
that the Marine Corps "endorses" the product advertised.
c. "Endorsing" commercial products in such ways as to involve the
uniform, title, grade or rate, or in any way establish or imply their
military affiliation with such products.
d. Appearing or participating in any event in public that would
compromise the dignity of the uniform.

Now what does it say in the other chapter about former and retired members.....thanks!  That is what we are discussing I thought. 

[lordmonar]

Additionally, A CAPRAP military officer has authority over an active member.....a CAPRAP/military officer has no command authority over a discharged veteran, uniform or not.  Nowhere in CAP does the CAPRAP fall into any chain of command for civilian volunteers.

Wait the CAPRAP Officer has authority over Active Duty personell??  So what happens when the CAPRAP is a Captain the CAP member is an AF Major?  Also, the whole oversight by the AF toward the CAP was changed when the laws were changed, making us the sometimes Auxiliary.  They have very limited Scope. 

I think the CAPRAP Officer has authority over the Reserve enlisted CAPRAP's.  Not Anyone and everyone. 

No...the CAPRAP was telling me the story.....his involvement was explaining the rules to the AD member...it was CAP who made the call.

[RiverAux]

CAP has authority over CAP uniforms.  Can someone please tell me where CAP has authority over a military veteran appropriately and legally wearing the uniform they are entitled to wear? 

We're talking about CAP events here.  The law apparently allows former servicement to wear the uniform on certain occassions but it doesn't make it illegal for an organization to say, "No, you can't wear it to an event".  Are you saying that if the former Marine wants to wear his marine uniform while flying on a CAP mission, that we can't tell him/her no? 

[Timbo]

US CODE FOLKS......for former members wearing the unfiorm of an Armed Service:

TITLE 10 > Subtitle A > PART II > CHAPTER 45 > § 772
Prev | Next
§ 772. When wearing by persons not on active duty authorized
How Current is This?
(a) A member of the Army National Guard or the Air National Guard may wear the uniform prescribed for the Army National Guard or the Air National Guard, as the case may be.
(b) A member of the Naval Militia may wear the uniform prescribed for the Naval Militia.
(c) A retired officer of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps may bear the title and wear the uniform of his retired grade.
(d) A person who is discharged honorably or under honorable conditions from the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps may wear his uniform while going from the place of discharge to his home, within three months after his discharge.
(e) A person not on active duty who served honorably in time of war in the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps may bear the title, and, when authorized by regulations prescribed by the President, wear the uniform, of the highest grade held by him during that war.
(f) While portraying a member of the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, an actor in a theatrical or motion-picture production may wear the uniform of that armed force if the portrayal does not tend to discredit that armed force.
(g) An officer or resident of a veterans' home administered by the Department of Veterans Affairs may wear such uniform as the Secretary of the military department concerned may prescribe.
(h) While attending a course of military instruction conducted by the Army, Navy, Air Force, or Marine Corps, a civilian may wear the uniform prescribed by that armed force if the wear of such uniform is specifically authorized under regulations prescribed by the Secretary of the military department concerned.
(i) Under such regulations as the Secretary of the Air Force may prescribe, a citizen of a foreign country who graduates from an Air Force school may wear the appropriate aviation badges of the Air Force.
(j) A person in any of the following categories may wear the uniform prescribed for that category:
(1) Members of the Boy Scouts of America.
(2) Members of any other organization designated by the Secretary of a military department.

[JayT]

Can I wear my EMT uniform? Or my EMS Academy uniform?

[lordmonar]

I would hardly compare a Marine wearing their blues to a JROTC cadet or SM Bagofdonuts.
I love it.   A CAP squadron Commander telling a veteran they werent allowed to wear their military uniform to a CAP function.    :clap:

CAP has authority over CAP uniforms.  Can someone please tell me where CAP has authority over a military veteran appropriately and legally wearing the uniform they are entitled to wear?  We arent talking about a vet wearing the uniform on a daily basis, but one wearing their uniform on special occasions. 

Additionally, A CAPRAP military officer has authority over an active member.....a CAPRAP/military officer has no command authority over a discharged veteran, uniform or not.  Nowhere in CAP does the CAPRAP fall into any chain of command for civilian volunteers.

CAP has authority over all of its members and visitors at our functions....if Roxysox was just a visitor to the event then she can wear what she likes (assuming it was appropriate).....but she is a CAP member and comes under the authority of her local commander.  That commander most certainly say what will and will not be worn.

My point.....when I was squadron commander.....is that unit integrity was very important.  I wanted as many people as possible to be in the USAF-style uniforms or corporates as appropriate.  If a member did not have the right uniform....they wore appropriate civilians attire.

This Marine is a CAP member....I would not want her to wear here Marine uniforms to a CAP event any more then I would want a JROTC cadet was was also a CAP cadet wearing the wrong uniform.

When you start to make exceptions, you start to loose your integrity.

Let SM Roxysox wear her USMC uniform instead of USAF blues...then you let SM Bagodonuts wear polos instead of the blazer/service dress...that leads to civies instead of any uniform.

Like I said....I understand that she is low on funds.....but you wear the appropriate uniform to CAP functions.....not what ever uniform you may have hanging in your closet.

[lordmonar]

Can I wear my EMT uniform? Or my EMS Academy uniform?

And that is my point....down the slippery slope we go!

[RiverAux]

By the way, I don't think the person asking the question is trying to "get away" with anything and I don't think the others in this thread think so either.  But, the fact remains that CAP as an organization has the authority to say "wear what we tell you, or don't come". 

If this was going on in my squadron and the person was still in the military and we were having a formal event, I would probably let it slide the first time, but I would probably ask them to wear civilian attire from then on. 

[Stonewall]

In some cases this can be an example of a young service member "showing off" their uniform.  I've seen it and I've done it.  When I was a young 19 year old grunt in the Army, I wore my uniform to a CAP meeting to "show off".  Later, when I became active again, after getting settled in, I converted one set of Army BDUs over to CAP.  

If I were a young enlisted soldier new to CAP and didn't have funds to purchase a CAP service dress uniform to wear to a function, I may opt to wear my service dress equivelant.  But to meetings, I cannot see it being that hard to get a uniform.  In fact, if I see E-3s and E-4s with $20K cars, Wii, xbox, and wardrobes that I can't afford as a civilian, yet they say they can't afford a set of short-sleeve blues for CAP, I think they're just making excuses.

If I were a Marine, former, active, retired, whatever, I personally would choose NOT to wear my Marine uniform to a CAP activity.  To a Veterans Day ceremony, yes.  But as a CAP member, only once did I wear my Army uniform to a CAP meeting and that was to my old CAP squadron and the sole purpose was to show off my jump wings, infantry cord and ribbon.

All that said, when I was in DC wing, you'd be hard pressed to find a CAP meeting that didn't have a military uniform in attendance, to include squadron commanders.  Three squadron commanders in a row, about 8 years worth, were active duty officers.  Two AF Lt Cols and one Army Major, and they almost exclusively wore their military uniforms because they came from the Pentagon, NRO and DIA straight to CAP.  If they had a chance to change into a CAP uniform they did.

Personally, and this is just my personal opinion, as a former Army NCO and current NCO in the Air National Guard, I don't think it's appropriate for me to show up to a CAP meeting in my AF blues with NCO stripes on when 95% of the time I'm a CAP Lt Col.  Am I proud to be an NCO?  Sure.  But in the grand scheme of things I don't think it's too terribly impressive.  When on active duty and performing the duties as an NCO day in and day out where you are the one in charge, sure, it's something.  But in CAP, it truly doesn't mean too much.  It's just the nature of the beast.  I've got a retired E-7 and a Reserve E-6 working for me on the civilian side, and their rank doesn't mean a thing to me.  Sure, I respect the fact they served, but that doesn't mean they can show up in their military uniforms to do their job.

And for those who say "tell me I can't wear my uniform, I earned that mo fo", I say, don't wear your uniform.  I've earned a few things too, few ribbons, badges, etc.  But as a former police officer, I'd like to have seen me showing up with an air assault badge on my police polyesters.  I probably would have been verbally counseled.  Just because you earned something from another organization, in another part of your life, does not always mean it's appropriate to wear elsewhere.

Finally, as an example.  Ranger school is one of the toughest schools in the military.  My Air Force Squadron Commander, a major, is a former Army Combat Engineer Officer and Ranger School graduate.  The Ranger Tab is not authorized for wear in the Air Force, and while he sure as hell earned it, through blood, sweat and tears, he cannot wear it.

[Pylon]

CAP can't tell a member of the Armed Forces when they can or cannot wear their uniform.  That's up to the services themselves.

What CAP can do is prescribe what it expects will be worn by those who have voluntarily become CAP members, when they are acting in a CAP capacity at a CAP activity.  In other words, if you're on CAP time and you're there volunteering you should be wearing the uniform our organization asks you to wear.  Working with cadets or flying a CAP aircraft, for example, you have to wear the CAP uniform. 

It has nothing to do with anything else you may or may not be entitled to wear.  You may be entitled to wear a grand sash or a crown or a police badge clipped to your belt.  CAP certainly can't tell you you're not entitled to it.  But if you volunteer for CAP and decide you want to participate in our activities, you've agreed to follow CAP rules when you do so.  The uniform regs are one of them. 

Let me put this another way  --  If you volunteered for the local police auxiliary, they'd expect you to wear your police uniform when you're on police time and performing police duties.  Even if you were entitled to wear another uniform, the police would want you wearing their uniform while you volunteered with them.    If you volunteered with the local boy scouts, they'd expect you to wear the appropriate scoutmaster uniform when you're on scout time performing scoutmaster duties even if you were authorized to wear a Marine uniform, a CAP uniform, a crown, a sash, a police badge or anything else.

Be proud of your service, wear your decorations (as authorized) proudly on your CAP uniform when on CAP time and wear your Marine uniform outside of CAP proudly, too.

[Short Field]

I am sure there are plenty who really don't care what CAP Knowledgebase says but here it is anyway:

Active duty or retired military wearing the CAP uniform

  Question
Is it appropriate for a recently retired USAF member now a CAP Captain to wear his USAF Dress Blue Uniform to a CAP wing banquet?
 
  Answer
No, not unless he is attending as a guest speaker or in some other role associated with his Air Force service. CAP members who are current active duty or retired military wear CAP uniforms during CAP activities.   CAP members who are active, reserve, and retired members of the armed forces are treated according to their CAP status when acting in a CAP capacity. Note: It would be appropriate for a non CAP member guest who is being honored, either active or retired military, to choose to wear the military mess dress uniform at a CAP wing banquet or other function.

See paragraph below from  AFI 10-2701 ORGANIZATION AND FUNCTION OF THE CIVIL AIR PATROL

1.3.1. CAP Grade. CAP uses military style grade for its membership at the discretion and approval of the Air Force. CAP officer or noncommissioned officer grade does not confer commissioned or noncommissioned officer status. CAP personnel have no authority over members of the armed forces. CAP members who are active, reserve, and retired members of the armed forces will be treated according to their CAP status when acting in a CAP capacity. The Air Force has authority over the CAP grade structure.

Also see uniform wear instructions for retirees (below) from  AFI 36-2903 DRESS AND PERSONAL APPEARANCE OF AIR FORCE PERSONNEL
If the member is retired he/she may wear the uniform prescribed at date of retirement, or any of the uniforms authorized for active duty personnel, including the dress uniforms. Do not mix uniform items. Retired individuals are authorized to wear the appropriate uniform at occasions of military ceremonies, at military funerals, weddings, memorial services, and inaugurals, patriotic parades on national holidays, other military parades or ceremonies in which any active or Reserve US military unit is taking part, at educational institutions when engaged in giving military instructions or responsible for military discipline,  and at social or other functions when the invitation has been influenced by the member's active military service.
Members receive the retired lapel button at retirement. Retirees wear the retired lapel button on the left lapel. Members whose assignments have included command at squadron, group or wing level are also authorized to wear the command insignia pin on the left lapel, below the retired lapel button.  Members whose last assignment prior to retirement was a First Sergeant and/or Command Chief may wear appropriate chevrons in all instances the uniform is worn.

[Gunner C]

Does Roxy want to be the center of attention or want to be there as a member of the unit to applaud the honorees?  I think the former instead of the latter.

I had a member who insisted on wearing his Army uniform to meetings instead of his CAP uniform.  He was training cadets and, frankly, was one of the best officers I've ever seen.  But the cadets saw him as an outsider and not part of the squadron.  It hurt unit cohesion and my efforts to mold it into an effective unit.

Uniform and unity have the same root.  If you want to be part of the unit, then look like it.  This has nothing to do with your service as a Marine.  That's something we all respect.  I'm proud as hell of my green beret, but I'd NEVER wear it to a meeting, much less my Army uniform.  It's just bad form.  Be a grown-up and make the transition to being a CAP member.

Gunner

[roxysox]

Whoa Loud and Clear. I don't want to be the center of attention Gunner, but you all made the valid point of if to be a member of CAP you agree to play by certant rules. My question was just can I wear my blues to the award and ceremonies night for my CAP unit until I get enough coin together to get the CAP dress uniform or wear approbate civilian clothing. I will wear the civvies until I can get a dress uniform together. Semper Vig and Semper Fi

[PaulR]

Can I wear my EMT uniform? Or my EMS Academy uniform?

By golly, lets not be silly.  

[PaulR]

When you start to make exceptions, you start to loose your integrity.

Let SM Roxysox wear her USMC uniform instead of USAF blues...then you let SM Bagodonuts wear polos instead of the blazer/service dress...that leads to civies instead of any uniform.

Like I said....I understand that she is low on funds.....but you wear the appropriate uniform to CAP functions.....not what ever uniform you may have hanging in your closet.

If her unit feels that way, she should be willing to loan her a uniform to wear until she can complete a kit of her own.     
She would be more out of place if she showed up in civies at a uniformed event.

You guys are making it seem like she is wanting to wear a Marine Corps uniform INSTEAD of the CAP one.  It was made clear from the beginning that this is not the case.  Please stop slanting the discussion in that direction.  It is not like she is wanting to substitute the Marine Corps uniform for the CAP one, like the Army Officer described above.  She has the desire to wear the correct uniform but does not have one to wear.  Big difference.

People wonder why there is a lack of volunteers these days... 

[Pylon]

My question was just can I wear my blues to the award and ceremonies night for my CAP unit until I get enough coin together to get the CAP dress uniform or wear approbate civilian clothing. I will wear the civvies until I can get a dress uniform together. Semper Vig and Semper Fi

If it were my unit, I would be fine with a brand new member wearing their military uniform to a banquet/ceremony for a one-time deal.  I have a few Air Guard and Active Army members in my unit who joined last year and they wore their AF/Army equivalents to the squadron banquet because they only had CAP BDUs.  We were cool with that because they wear an appropriate CAP uniform every other activity.  I can't reasonably expect a new member to run right out and assemble the whole closet of CAP uniforms.  It's taken me years to put together all the ones I have. 

I think the ultimate judgment call comes from the unit commander who's hosting this ceremony/activity.  If he or she is cool with it, then it flies.  If not, wear civvies and a proud lapel pin or something.

Sorry if it seems like we jumped on ya.  Welcome to CAP and CAPTalk, by the way.   

[Hawk200]

I don't think it would be appropriate for another uniform to be worn when the individual is a CAP member. I know it's harder for members formerly of other branches to put together the duds for CAP, but where do we draw the line? And what kind of precedent do we set by allowing it once? It stinks, I know, but we have pubs for a reason.

As for fronting some coin, I'm game. Gotta few bucks just sitting in the PayPal account that could stand to go to a good cause. Looking out for a fellow CAP and fellow service member seems to be one. Not something I would do for everybody, but being here in the desert has given me a new appreciation for my brothers and sisters in arms.

BTW, Stonewall, still looking for some "5.56 Inside" patches? Thinking about getting a few made up over here (for novelty purposes only, of course  )

[Stonewall]

BTW, Stonewall, still looking for some "5.56 Inside" patches? Thinking about getting a few made up over here (for novelty purposes only, of course  )

Heck yeah.  Hook me up.  I'll pay for a few of them.

[MSgt Van]

Speaking of PayPal, I've got a few $ in there that I'd love to see go to a good cause.

[Stonewall]

[Hawk200]

Saved it a long time ago, brother. Gonna go to alterations tomorrow to see what it would run me. I'll let you know what I find out. They may be a little rough, but I'm hoping that it will be somewhat inexpensive. Might look into a "7.62 Inside" variant. Gotta have something to stick on back of my helmet if I get the chance to fly  .

Anyway, how about roxysox? "Tis the season" and all that....

[SAR-EMT1]

Mike - Thank you, but I did not see in there where it said that military service dress uniform was prohibited was prohibited. All I saw that Table 1-1 offered was when CAP uniforms where perscribed. If it truly becomes and issue I will wear appropriate civilian attire.

That's just it, if it isn't in there it's not permitted.

The way I have always looked at it, if its not PROHIBITED in the regs then its allowed.  I have had this reiterated again and again by several LT Cols and even a retired General. The key idea is to complete the mission. 

[Hawk200]

The way I have always looked at it, if its not PROHIBITED in the regs then its allowed.  I have had this reiterated again and again by several LT Cols and even a retired General. The key idea is to complete the mission. 

To write regulations that specifically forbid everything that was not allowed would turn each reg into something the size of an encyclopedia. That's why they tell you what you can do, not what you can't. I've seen many in the military try to do the "it's not forbidden" thing. In many cases, it's come back to bite them, sometimes disastrously.

When it comes to things specifically forbidden, there is nothing that says I can't salute with my left hand. Does that mean it's allowed? It doesn't say I can't wear my badges over my nametape if I want, does that mean it's OK? I don't think there is anything that says I can't wear a green boonie with my BDU's, so is it an option if it's not specifically forbidden? There is no reg that says that I can't have someone else take my tests for me either, is there?

Those may seem to be extreme examples, but they're still examples. If we all try to say "It's not prohibited", where do we end up? In a serious quagmire. Wisest thing is to comply with what is spelled out, and when it's not, try to act in the spirit of the guidelines set for us.

[Stonewall]

I don't care what some Lt Col or retired general says.  You try that stance in the military outside of combat where all regulations can be thrown out the window.  We are not in combat, we are CAP and we're talking about uniforms.  We're not even talking a life or death situation on a SAR mission.  Some situations call for creativity, flexibility and thinking outside the box; this is not one of those situations.  This is about doing the right thing and knowing it. 

Its like an Army combat veteran wearing their combat patch on their CAP BDUs.  It doesn't say you can't, so does that mean you can?  No.  That's an Army thing, not a CAP thing.

It's a stupid way to think about regulations and wrong.  People just use this mindset in CAP to try to look cool and get away with it.  Unfortunately you're setting a bad example for cadets.

[Short Field]

In the RM, regulations are a guide which a commander can violate depending on the situation.  You had better have an exceptionally good reason or you pay the price at your court martial.

Wearing a RM mess dress because you don't want to show up in a suit at a CAP function doesn't even come close to being a good reason.  

[IceNine]

Mike - Thank you, but I did not see in there where it said that military service dress uniform was prohibited was prohibited. All I saw that Table 1-1 offered was when CAP uniforms where perscribed. If it truly becomes and issue I will wear appropriate civilian attire.

That's just it, if it isn't in there it's not permitted.

The way I have always looked at it, if its not PROHIBITED in the regs then its allowed.  I have had this reiterated again and again by several LT Cols and even a retired General. The key idea is to complete the mission. 

Nope. 

I would strongly suggest that you think about that long and hard.

[PHall]

Mike - Thank you, but I did not see in there where it said that military service dress uniform was prohibited was prohibited. All I saw that Table 1-1 offered was when CAP uniforms where perscribed. If it truly becomes and issue I will wear appropriate civilian attire.

That's just it, if it isn't in there it's not permitted.

The way I have always looked at it, if its not PROHIBITED in the regs then its allowed.  I have had this reiterated again and again by several LT Cols and even a retired General. The key idea is to complete the mission. 

Suggest you read, two or three times if needed, CAPM 39-1, Paragraph 1-1, Sentences 7, 8 and 10.
It doesn't get more clear then that.

[PORed]

Ok this is getting way out of hand. Roxysox asked if anyone thought if it would be a problem if she wore her USMC Blues to a dress uniform CAP event until she got the money to get a set of CAP blues together. She never insinuated that she was going to wear her USMC uniforms all the time. I did read the CAP Uniform Manual and it even says in the paragraph that PHall quoted that it covers how to wear and when to wear CAP uniforms. Last time I checked CAP wasn't a Military Branch, and therefore would not have the authority over military members or their uniforms. Also the CAP Uniform Manual can not dictate what civilian clothing a person wears. For those of you that want Roxy to wear civvies to the CAP blues event, Roxy is retired now (IE a Civilian) and her USMC Blues are authorized for her to continue to wear as a Civilian. As for people saying someone would get Court Marshaled over a uniform offense, that is highly unlikely unless it was a repeated problem that the service member had been counseled on and even Non Judicial Punished on before it got to that point. The regulations and manuals are there for a reason, and they do dictate what hand you salute with, when you can wear the boonie hat, and the placement of badges on the uniforms. They tell you very specifically how things are to be done properly. If Roxysox was asking about wearing her division patch or shooting badges on a CAP uniform I would agree with you, but she isn't, and no matter what some of the people here are saying, the CAP Uniform Manual does not say anything about this situation. In the same vein, Roxy is joining to be a member of CAP, and in so doing she is supposed to follow certain criteria to be a member and one of those is to wear proper CAP uniforms for whatever the occasion dictates. Remember she has said, and started off by saying, she was just waiting to get the money to put the blues together. Ultimately if you can't cut some slack to a retired military veteran wounded in her service to her country and ultimately you the people, in the fact she wants to temporarily wear the military uniform she earned to a military cadet program then you are incredibly callus.

[PHall]

PORed, you're right, CAP members are not under the UCMJ.
But if you read the membership application it says that by signing you agree to follow CAP regulations.
And failure to follow regulations can result in termination of your membership.

Just like any other organization....

Oh, and I didn't say she couldn't wear her Marine Corps uniform. But I did ask what does the Marine Corps Uniform manual have to say on the subject.

If she had been an Air Force member she would be on some shaky ground if she wore her Air Force uniform to a CAP function.

I'm a retired Air Force Reservist and even I can't wear my Air Force uniform to a purely CAP event.

[PORed]

PHall, I agree with you and said that in my last post. What I am saying as well is Roxy doesn't have CAP/USAF blues, she has said she is working on a set once she has the money. It has been said for her to wear civvies to the CAP blues event she talked about, in the CAP Uniform Manual's eye her USMC Blues or a Dress or suit are the same thing. It is something out of CAP's control. If she was saying she was going to wear it all the time I would agree with you all, but she is saying she will wear it only a few times until she has the money to complete a set of CAP blues. Uniforms are there to present and image and mindset of all one team/unit. If you force her to wear her civvies that puts her even farther apart from that team/unit mindset then if you put her in USMC Blues.

[Short Field]

The guidance from National that is in the Knowledgebase is not to wear ANY military uniform to a CAP function if you are a CAP member.  However, because they didn't spell it out word for word in a manuel, it doesn't count??

Please don't try and tell me a USMC uniform is considered "civvies" by CAP!!!!  You are the only one trying to classify a USMC uniform as "civilian dress", not CAP.   

[PORed]

No I am saying being she is retired now, and therefore a civilian as she is not an active or reserve military member. I am also saying Roxysox as a civilian is entitled to wear her USMC blues in accordance to US Code, and finally there is no difference in the impact of if she wears her blues or civilian clothing to the CAP event.  I see no issue as she transitions to CAP blues as soon as convenient.

[JAFO78]

  Sheet of paper taken from drawer, Very LARGE X placed on such. Taped to wall. Also written on this paper the following.....


                                       HIT HEAD HERE


After this apply ice pack to head and aspirin for pain.


This post reminds me of a dog chasing his tail....not going anywhere.

[PORed]

Rob, well said. Of course being I am on mid-watchs dieing trying to stay awake it is good that I am having to concentrate on the post to try and make my point.

[Stonewall]

No I am saying being she is retired now, and therefore a civilian as she is not an active or reserve military member. I am also saying Roxysox as a civilian is entitled to wear her USMC blues in accordance to US Code, and finally there is no difference in the impact of if she wears her blues or civilian clothing to the CAP event.  I see no issue as she transitions to CAP blues as soon as convenient.

I still think it's inapropriate.  Throw eggs now, but this is how I feel about the subject.

The Marine Corps can say all it wants about wearing the uniform.  What people are arguing here is no different than at a civilian job.  The security officers that work under me have a standardized uniform.  However, I have written the SOP to say they may wear a different set of pants than what are issued so long as they are not cargo pants and are navy blue.

My SOP does not say they can't wear the USMC uniform, but please, try and wear it to work.

If she is a civilian now, retired or not, and is in CAP, but still trying to acquire the appropriate uniforms, then the right thing for her to do is to wear the equivelant civilian attire.  I wouldn't care what anyone thinks they're entitled to.  It's the right thing to do.  We're not talking a Veterans Day ceremony where the general public is invited, we're talking a specific function of the Civil Air Patrol. 

Remember folks, we don't have to agree on everything.  No hating.

[PHall]

No I am saying being she is retired now, and therefore a civilian as she is not an active or reserve military member. I am also saying Roxysox as a civilian is entitled to wear her USMC blues in accordance to US Code, and finally there is no difference in the impact of if she wears her blues or civilian clothing to the CAP event.  I see no issue as she transitions to CAP blues as soon as convenient.

If she's retired, then she is not a civilian, she is a retired member of the Marine Corps. And she even has a DD Form 2 (MC) to prove it.
She's still a Marine. Just ask her...

Oh, and I'm a retired Air Force Reserve member, I think I may know just a little bit about this subject.

[Timbo]

^ Retired members can wear the uniform of their respective service anytime too, right??

Discharged members have to meet certain circumstantial criteria if I am not mistaken. 

[Short Field]

^ Correct.  There are no weight standards either, just wear the "I was there a long long time" lapel pin and you are good to go.

I am a Commissioned Officer who happens to be on the retired list.  Just takes a set of orders to move me to the active list.  I also happen to be a former Marine who then enlisted in the USAF before I got tired of working for a living and took a Commission.  I wear a suit to CAP formal functions because I am still too cheap to buy a second Mess Dress jacket and don't care to cut the silver braid off my other one.  One day I will break now and get one but not this year.  When I attend functions as a Commissioned Officer, I either wear my Mess Dress or my tux with my medals attached to the lapel.

[PHall]

^ Retired members can wear the uniform of their respective service anytime too, right??

Discharged members have to meet certain circumstantial criteria if I am not mistaken. 

Actually, there are limits when a retired member can wear the uniform too.

Basically, you just can't decide that I going to wear my uniform today because I ran out of clean clothes.
You have to have a valid reason like you're going to a funeral or a ceremony or something like that.
AFI 36-2903, Chapter 6 covers all of this.

And you're right, there are no weight limits, of course there are no weight limits in the Air Force anymore either.
Just pass your PT test and be within your allowable body fat percentage.

[Short Field]

^^^or body fat limits when you retire...

[Pylon]

Ask... the.... commander. 

 

[roxysox]

Pylon I have you loud and clear, thanks for the advice everyone. I asked the CO and got his advice and went with that for the meeting.

[Pylon]

Pylon I have you loud and clear, thanks for the advice everyone. I asked the CO and got his advice and went with that for the meeting.

Haha, always the safest course of action.  If the old man thinks what you're doing is spot on, doesn't matter so much what a bunch of us in an internet forum think.   

"But, sir!  This 'pylon' guy on the interwebs said I could do it..." probably doesn't get you (or me, for that matter) too far.   

Hope you had fun at your dining out!

[Hawk200]

Might be late for the party, but still willing to donate.

[roxysox]

Thank you all for the call to donation, but I think I may have the CAP Blues issue worked out. Luckily our SuppO is a pack rat and got me dressed out in pants and a female enlisted jacket in my size. I just have to run down a shirt, the rank insignia and patches and I will be set. Thank you all again.