I've got the blues about my "blues"

[SAR-EMT1]

Flight Officers are to some extent what Warrants are to the Army.
Someone with the rights of an Officer, and the Uniform of an Officer, but who ranks below a 2nd Lt and who has little to none of hte responsibility or stress of the Commissioned Officer Corps.

However both serve a purpose and serve it very well. (my hat is off to any and all Warrants that were prior enlisted) 

[jimmydeanno]

Flight Officers are to some extent what Warrants are to the Army.
Someone with the rights of an Officer...

I don't really see a likeness between the two.

1) Flight Officers typically have no CAP experience (there is the ocassional cadet who transfers membership...but...)

2) Warrant Officers are experts in their specialized field and have years of training and expertise.

3) Flight Officers do not 'rate' a salute under normal circumstances.  CAPP 151 says you salute all officers.  To be a CAP officer you need to be 21. 39-1 is not the reference for a definition of an officer overall. (NOTE: Thank you Pylon for pointing out that line for the flight cap.)

4) Warrant Officers 'rate' a salute from enlisted personnel.

5) Flight Officers are young and inexperienced, not always inexperienced, but always young.

6) Warrant Officers are never that young and always have experience.

[SAR-EMT1]

The fact that the Flight Officers have the very term Officer in them is an indicator to me. And they can hold positions and leadership areas.
Second they have Technical and Senior FO's and they can transfer direct in a lst Lt or Capt.

[Trung Si Ma]

[In fact, I wish Vanguard would stop selling them as they have no more use in CAP now that NCO epaulet sleeves are embroidered.

Mike,

Look at my earlier post about NCO epaulet sleeves - Vanguard hopes to have samples for National approval in the next six months.  I called Suzy Parker's office and was told to pin the grade to the blank sleeves until Vanguard gets the embroidered ones.  After doing this and seeing how it looks, I'll wear my golf shirt until they get them done.

Don

[mikeylikey]

Flight Officers are to some extent what Warrants are to the Army.
Someone with the rights of an Officer...

I don't really see a likeness between the two.

1) Flight Officers typically have no CAP experience (there is the occasional cadet who transfers membership...but...)

2) Warrant Officers are experts in their specialized field and have years of training and expertise.

3) Flight Officers do not 'rate' a salute under normal circumstances.  CAPP 151 says you salute all officers.  To be a CAP officer you need to be 21. 39-1 is not the reference for a definition of an officer overall. (NOTE: Thank you Pylon for pointing out that line for the flight cap.)

4) Warrant Officers 'rate' a salute from enlisted personnel.

5) Flight Officers are young and inexperienced, not always inexperienced, but always young.

6) Warrant Officers are never that young and always have experience.

?  What!?

# 6......High school to flight school......19 year old WO.  OK settled that issue
#5............ young has nothing to do with it.  I would trust my life with some FO, and not some Lt Col's.
#4.............well duh!
#3.......... they do in fact rate a salute.  Tradition is tradition.  It may be unwritten, but everything else written backs it up.  SALUTE THEM!  or die
#2.........not necessarily.  They specialize in one area, while Commissioned Officers are generalists, dealing with all areas.  I have met many jacked up WO's......even though they only have to concentrate in one area they are still lacking.  
#1............Welcome to CAP......most FO's are former freaking Cadets.  They go Senior because CAP makes them (Active Duty) or they hate the Cadet program so much!

[jimmydeanno]

#3.......... they do in fact rate a salute.  Tradition is tradition.  It may be unwritten, but everything else written backs it up.  SALUTE THEM!  or die

#1............Welcome to CAP......most FO's are former freaking Cadets.  They go Senior because CAP makes them (Active Duty) or they hate the Cadet program so much!

No, they do not rate a salute according to what is written.

Flight Officer Grades. Senior members who are ineligible for officer grade because of the minimum age criteria (21 years) may qualify for appointment or promotion to flight officer grades as outlined in section F

So they're ineligible for OFFICER grade.

3. Senior Member Grades.
a. CAP officer grades are:
1) Major General (Maj Gen)
2) Brigadier General (Brig Gen)
3) Colonel (Col)
4) Lieutenant Colonel (Lt Col)
5) Major (Maj)
6) Captain (Capt)
7) First Lieutenant (1st Lt)
8) Second Lieutenant (2d Lt)

They're not in the list of OFFICER GRADES.

6. Minimum Eligibility Requirements. To qualify for initial appointment to CAP officer grade, senior members must meet the following minimum requirements:
a. Be at least 21 years of age.

So for your inital appointment (first appointment to be a CAP OFFICER) you must be 21.  Therefore, to be a CAP OFFICER you must be 21.

Now, since you're supposed to salute OFFICERS and it is clearly stated that a Flight Officer is NOT considered an OFFICER in CAP - they do not generally rate a salute.

So no - they do not "in fact" rate a salute.  It is not a tradition to salute non-officers.  You don't see the NCO corps running around saluting each other or airman saluting NCOs do you?  Why?  Because they aren't officers.

Don't get me wrong, I have no problem with the FO program, however, it is clearly stated that they do not qualify as CAP officers.  They may 'officer' in the title, but so does Non Commissioned Officer.

Most of the CAP FOs I've met have no CAP experience at all.  I think I've met 3 former cadets who were FOs all 100 others were CAP newbies.

Disabled smileys - MIKE

[mikeylikey]

Most of the CAP FOs I've met have no CAP experience at all.  I think I've met 3 former cadets who were FOs all 100 others were CAP newbies.

So where was this Flight Officer convention in which you met 100 Flight Officers?

So why the big deal on not saluting a FO?  Are you a cadet who is 20, and there is a FO that is 18 and you don't want to salute people younger than you. 

I hate to tell you, the FO is an "unofficial" Officer.  I will make it standing protocol to have all cadets salute FO's, and make all SMWOG salute all FO's.

Just because it does not specifically say "salute FO"....you should still do it

[jimmydeanno]

There was no "flight officer convention."  After a decade in the program you tend to meet a lot of people.  Of the thousands of people I've seen in CAP about 100 were FOs.

There is no big deal on saluting FOs - I'm just pointing out what CAP actually considers them.

For a group of people who are concerned about 'following the rules and regulations' of CAP, there seems to be a lot of "when it's convenient" or "when I agree with it." in this case.

So why would you make a cadet salute a FO but not a SMWOG?  Neither are technically officers.  Wouldn't that make a SMWOG an 'unofficial officer' too? Does that also make NCOs "unofficial officers" too?  Afterall they have officer in their title?

[pixelwonk]

Why all the barracks lawyering?

A Flight Officer is an officer.  For those who haven't noticed, CAP regs don't always agree with each other.  For every reason backing up an opponent's argument, I can produce one that backs up the position that they are.

Typically, they do not rate a salute because they are at the bottom of the totem pole. that's simply logic.

The flight cap braid thing has already been discussed.  Using your selective logic, since only officers wear silver/blue braid in their flight caps, then a flight officer must qualify as an officer.
Let's revisit that reg again...

If you read CAPM 39-1, Section 1-3, for the purposes of the uniform manual, Flight Officers are part of the category of "senior member officers."

1-3. Definition of Terms:
a. Officer: As used in this publication, includes senior member grades flight officer through major general and cadet grades second lieutenant through colonel.

Agree to disagree, accept the fact that Flight Officers are treated as such umm, like everywhere... and move on.

Like to sleeve braid or something. 

[mikeylikey]

Does that make NCOs "unofficial officers" too?  Afterall they have officer in their title too...

 Ok.....I am done playing with this thread!  Make sure you go to your next SQD meeting and tell your cadets......."don't respect or salute the FO we have.  He is NOTHING to us"

[jimmydeanno]

There is a difference between respecting a FO and not saluting them.  We respect NCOs every day by addressing them as Sergeant and trusting their abilities to get the job done, but they aren't expecting a salute for validation.

NOWHERE did I say "do not respect FOs."  I simply pointed out that according to our customs and courtesies practices they do not rate a salute and they are not considered 'CAP Officers.'  That doesn't make them unworthy members. 

My cadets do not salute the FOs in our squadron because the cadets and FOs understand that CAP does not consider them to be officers, but they do respect them and call them by the appropriate titles.

[JC004]

You have met 100 flight officers?!  Was there a flight officer convention I was supposed to attend when I was one?!

In PAWG, one of our largest wings, we only have exactly 19 people who are 18-20 and Senior Members, almost half of which I can say I know to be inactive and plain SMs.  If there was a convention and you didn't tell me, I am going to be very, very sad.  I didn't mind my couple years as a FO.

[Flying Pig]

Ive been in CAP 15 years and I think Ive seen 2 FO's.  Of course....I was a C/FO back in the day!
I was told when I attended Cadet Officer Basic Course many moons ago that it just allows a transition from Cadet to Senior.  A Senior member in training.  They can attend Senior courses and hold Senior member leadership positions and everyone recognizes they are in the learning phase.  When they hit 21 they are recognized for their service by qualifying for advanced promotion when they turn Senior.   I was told it really wasn't intended to be for someone who was brand new to CAP at age 19. But unfortunately they still fall in under the FO program.

CAP Flight Officers are in no way anything like military warrant officers.

[Major Carrales]

This is an example of why CAPM 39-1 need to be revised.  A new member comes in and is given a copy of it...puts their uniform in order by it, and has not read the 6 or so policy letters.


I think uniform policy letters need to be outlawed.  If you are going to make a uniform change, it needs to be a complete change of the regulation.  This would make willy-nilly changes a thing of the past. 

Oh, and not every person has a computer to be able to download the latest reg or policy letter.   Computer access is not yet universal.

[Walkman]

I think uniform policy letters need to be outlawed.  If you are going to make a uniform change, it need to be a complete change of the regulation.  This would make willy-nilly changes a thing of the past. 

I'm with you there! At least make some sort of doc that new members can use that is always up-to-date. An easy solution that could handle the frequent updates would be a database driven webpage. As regs are changed, IT only has to update the changed fields in the database and they'll instantly display the new information. It doesn't have to be as extensive as 39-1, either. Most new members are probably going straight to either BDUs (or BBDUs) or golf shirt/slacks, going with Mike's idea:

This is why SMs without grade should not wear service uniforms until they are at least 2d Lt.  Wear a golf shirt for the 6 months.

As the good Major also points out about not everyone having access to computers, it isn't really that difficult to set up a process to turn that webpage into a PDF that can be printed on-demand and inserted into the new SM binder.

[SARMedTech]

Im not agreeing with the decision, but we just had a SMWOG quit the Squadron because in his words "CAP regs are FUBAR" and a pain in the ^%$.  He decided that USCGAUX used a little more common sense.  Again, not saying I disagree but its pretty sad when someone quits us because the regs are so confusing. And whether anyone agrees with his decision or not, theres not really much question that CAP regs are...FUBAR-ish.

[RiverAux]

Folks, anyone who wants to look at 39-1 has to be blind not to see all the various policy letters ammending it online.  Back in the old days policy letters would be easy to miss, but not anymore. 

[Major Carrales]

Folks, anyone who wants to look at 39-1 has to be blind not to see all the various policy letters ammending it online.  Back in the old days policy letters would be easy to miss, but not anymore. 

OK, six cadets from a poor urban or rural community with no access to the the web join.  They are given a Copy of CAPM 39-1 by one of you "it's in the regs" types.  The cadets organize their uniforms according to the guidance...and then the instructional documents presented in the "binder" that comes in the mail.

They have gone to the expense...now three to six policy letters come out changing "US CIVIL AIR PATROL" to "USAF AUXILIARY,"  WING PATCHES come back...then disappear.  And lastly, an old uniform style is phased out, then returned this time with the need for new epaulets.

You miss the point, my friend.

It's not that a person needs to get on line to see these things...it is that they have to with an undo frequency.

OUTLAW UNIFORM POLICY LETTERS...CALL FOR CHANGES TO CAPM 39-1 to BE CHANGED with as many obstacles to the CHANGES as possible.

[RiverAux]

Well then the person who gave them the manual without the accompanying policy letters is the one who screwed them, not CAP NHQ. 

[SJFedor]

Just to bring up some dead skeletons...

someone prior mentioned FO's not being officers. 35-5 does not define them as officers, but does the title itself not define them as an officer?

If they weren't, per se, officers, wouldn't we call them Flight Members or Flight People?