Wearing a beret with color guard

[C/2d Lt]

Has anyone herd of wearing the beret for the color guard. Our squadron is thinking of requesting for our squadrons color guard to where the beret instead of the service cap that we currently wear. I think this is a good idea something cool and different. What are your thoughts?

[lordmonar]

Get it approved by the wing commander and make sure it is blue...and you are good to go.

[Extremepredjudice]

Why? It will look stupid.


And WHY are you wearing service caps? They are not authorized for Color Guards. Period. (citation below) Only Honor Guards and c/officers (with wing supplement).

Service caps with short sleeve blues looks stupid, anyway.

From 39-1, fig. 2-26, NOTES line 1

Service Cap: Optional for senior members. May be authorized by wing commander for cadet officers. Normally worn with service dress uniform. Cadet NCOs and airmen will not wear the service cap (Exception see Chapter 3).

[abdsp51]

Do you ever have anything positive to say?  If they want to wear berets and get it approved more power to them.  A beret for ceremonial purposes looks more sharp than the service cap. 

[a2capt]

If you intend to compete, I'd shy away from anything else but the prescribed uniform.

It's amazing how much small changes effect the outcome. Peripheral vision included. It's all about what you see, and don't see.  Make changes and ... the results could be non-intended.

[AngelWings]

Ask. The worst someone could possibly ever say to you is "NO YOU STUPID IDIOT! I HOPE YOU DIE FOR ASKING ME THAT YOU TOOL! RELIEVE YOURSELF FROM MY PRESENCE!"

[C/2d Lt]

Let me correct myself. At this current point we are a color guard however we are currently working on development a colors element sometime in the very neer future (Within months). The service caps are for our honor guard witch currently has all honor guard members in it but we still consider it a color guard. I think it would be cool idea also seaming that we would be able to wear it with our BDU's as well (senior member told us). 

[Luis R. Ramos]

Extreme,

No, service caps with short sleeves does not look stupid. It may be unusual, but it is as stupid as wearing it with the long sleeve.

Flyer

[Eclipse]

Let me correct myself. At this current point we are a color guard however we are currently working on development a colors element sometime in the very neer future (Within months). The service caps are for our honor guard witch currently has all honor guard members in it but we still consider it a color guard. I think it would be cool idea also seaming that we would be able to wear it with our BDU's as well (senior member told us).

Most bad ideas start with "I think it would be cool...".

[abdsp51]

Biggest way to get something shot down "Looks Cool!".  When I was wearing a beret as a cadet in JROTC it was a distinctive item for our drill team(rifle mainly), color guard, and the honor guard.  I headed up the honor guard my senior year and we tried a couple different variations and come back to the beret.  Why it looked more sharp was easier to obtain and it was a distinct piece of headgear for us. 

Now for CAP purposes propose as a distinct headgear for a color guard for distinction and not because it looks cool.  Plus simply because a SM told you is never a good idea to use as a source. 

Do not confuse the above with wearing the beret awarded from NBB. 

[spaatzmom]

Let me correct myself. At this current point we are a color guard however we are currently working on development a colors element sometime in the very neer future (Within months). The service caps are for our honor guard witch currently has all honor guard members in it but we still consider it a color guard. I think it would be cool idea also seaming that we would be able to wear it with our BDU's as well (senior member told us).

After trying to determine what you are trying to say, let me see if I understand.  Currently you have an Honor Guard, which has all Honor Guard members only, which it should.  You are performing colors element functions which are a part of the Honor Guard duties.  Your squadron does not have a separate Color Guard which is not part of the Honor Guard.  You wish to change the very specifically delineated uniform regulation regarding Honor Guards because it would look cool.  Why?  It is not needed and would add to the expense of either the squadron or the members.  If you are really that h*** bent on trying to use a beret that for the most part is hot and sloppy looking, establish a regular squadron Color Guard, write up the proper proposal, with correct spelling, grammar, punctuation, and send it up the food chain.  Do not be surprised if it is rejected without a reason.  In the meantime, remember that Honor Guards do not perform any of the rifle, funeral, or color elements in BDU's.

[Extremepredjudice]

Why do you need distinction? Do your color guard members not remember they are in color guard?

Are people trying to sneak in and pretend they are in color guard?

[lordmonar]

Why do you need distinction? Do your color guard members not remember they are in color guard?

Are people trying to sneak in and pretend they are in color guard?

Why does everyone have to shoot this idea down?

Then question has been answered.  YOUR and MY opinion about what it looks like, how practical it is, if it is cool or nor, or if you need or don't need distinction are not important.

The only opinion that counts is his chain of command.

Ask your commander to ask the wing commander.....that is all.

[abdsp51]

If you are really that h*** bent on trying to use a beret that for the most part is hot and sloppy looking, establish a regular squadron Color Guard, write up the proper proposal, with correct spelling, grammar, punctuation, and send it up the food chain.  Do not be surprised if it is rejected without a reason.  In the meantime, remember that Honor Guards do not perform any of the rifle, funeral, or color elements in BDU's.

Ma'am, while you other points are valid and spot on, I will have to disagree with you on this aspect.  I wore a beret for 12 years of my career and it always looked sharp and I never had an issue with it being too hot.  It all comes down to the person caring about their appearance.  A properly sized and taken care of beret looks exceptionally sharp regardless of the uniform worn. 

To the OP the only beret authorized to be worn currently with BDUs is the one awarded at NBB.  And as a colors element you should always stick to established guidelines established. 

[AngelWings]

Give it a shot. You never know. What looks good to me (I personally do not like berets because they defy something I cannot:  gravity) may not look good to you.

[spaatzmom]

If you are really that h*** bent on trying to use a beret that for the most part is hot and sloppy looking, establish a regular squadron Color Guard, write up the proper proposal, with correct spelling, grammar, punctuation, and send it up the food chain.  Do not be surprised if it is rejected without a reason.  In the meantime, remember that Honor Guards do not perform any of the rifle, funeral, or color elements in BDU's.

Ma'am, while you other points are valid and spot on, I will have to disagree with you on this aspect.  I wore a beret for 12 years of my career and it always looked sharp and I never had an issue with it being too hot.  It all comes down to the person caring about their appearance.  A properly sized and taken care of beret looks exceptionally sharp regardless of the uniform worn. 

To the OP the only beret authorized to be worn currently with BDUs is the one awarded at NBB.  And as a colors element you should always stick to established guidelines established.

Sorry, I was talking in the context of cadets not AD, who take better care of their uniform parts than cadets often do.  Few cadets know how to properly size or care for a beret and in the majority of squadrons, I doubt there are that many actually active SM's who do either considering the general age of SM's in my area are far older than when berets came into effect.

[Sapper168]

....To the OP the only beret authorized to be worn currently with BDUs is the one awarded at NBB.  And as a colors element you should always stick to established guidelines established.

Not exactly.  The Blue beret awarded at NBB is the only one authorized to be worn with the Saint Albans crest and only in BDU's(BBDU's).  The blue Beret may be authorized for wear  for color guard, drill teams, bands and ES partisipants.  Table 1-4 of CAPM 39-1 has all the info of when, where, etc..

[abdsp51]

Ma'am, it all comes down to those willing to put in the time to teach and enforce standards.  I have taught a uniform class to my cadets and most of them will tell you I am stickler for things.  If it was authorized for my cadets I can guarantee that they would be wearing it right and be properly sized.

[AngelWings]

A Color Guard or Honor Guard team should be the STANDARD of the squadron. Their job outside of their events is to present the most professional appearence. They are a representation of CAP in a very public way.

[C/2d Lt]

This was just an idea that was brought to me. I liked the idea because it would be something different that we could wear on occasion.

In addition I do want to say for anyone that doesn't know about the service caps, and actually has one, is that in my experience(with the american flag) they are a pain to march with. They continuously bounce on the brim of your service cap and move it all around your head.

We even had one cadet have it fall right off. We do not win the chin straps because we are just presenting the colors and such of that nature so there is really no need to and if we did it would look silly. Berets would be easer because you would be able to actually see and not worry about it falling off because the flag is nocking into it.

[spaatzmom]

Ma'am, it all comes down to those willing to put in the time to teach and enforce standards.  I have taught a uniform class to my cadets and most of them will tell you I am stickler for things.  If it was authorized for my cadets I can guarantee that they would be wearing it right and be properly sized.

Very glad to hear that.  Sadly, looking at many pics over the years, I fear you are among the minority. 

[Extremepredjudice]

....To the OP the only beret authorized to be worn currently with BDUs is the one awarded at NBB.  And as a colors element you should always stick to established guidelines established.

Not exactly.  The Blue beret awarded at NBB is the only one authorized to be worn with the Saint Albans crest and only in BDU's(BBDU's).  The blue Beret may be authorized for wear  for color guard, drill teams, bands and ES partisipants.  Table 1-4 of CAPM 39-1 has all the info of when, where, etc..

1-3, you mean.

This was just an idea that was brought to me. I liked the idea because it would be something different that we could wear on occasion.

In addition I do want to say for anyone that doesn't know about the service caps, and actually has one, is that in my experience(with the american flag) they are a pain to march with. They continuously bounce on the brim of your service cap and move it all around your head.

We even had one cadet have it fall right off. We do not win the chin straps because we are just presenting the colors and such of that nature so there is really no need to and if we did it would look silly. Berets would be easer because you would be able to actually see and not worry about it falling off because the flag is nocking into it.

You are required to wear and use a rear chinstrap.

39-1, table 3-1, line 4

All members will wear male service cap with cadet officer cap device; in
addition to the front chinstrap, a functional rear chinstrap with buckle will be
worn.  When performing, the rear chinstrap will be placed under the
member's chin.  This is a safety factor.

[spaatzmom]

This was just an idea that was brought to me. I liked the idea because it would be something different that we could wear on occasion.

In addition I do want to say for anyone that doesn't know about the service caps, and actually has one, is that in my experience(with the american flag) they are a pain to march with. They continuously bounce on the brim of your service cap and move it all around your head.

We even had one cadet have it fall right off. We do not win the chin straps because we are just presenting the colors and such of that nature so there is really no need to and if we did it would look silly. Berets would be easer because you would be able to actually see and not worry about it falling off because the flag is nocking into it.

A properly fitted service cap should not have wiggle room.  If it does it is too big.  Also, as you have stated your people are all Honor guardsmen and by the Honor Guard uniform regulation are supposed to use the chin strap, this will also prevent it from falling off.  Lastly, when marching the flag pole should not be bouncing all over the place knocking into the brim.  You have 2 hands on the pole at fixed positions, there should be way more control than you are describing.

[AngelWings]

This was just an idea that was brought to me. I liked the idea because it would be something different that we could wear on occasion.

In addition I do want to say for anyone that doesn't know about the service caps, and actually has one, is that in my experience(with the american flag) they are a pain to march with. They continuously bounce on the brim of your service cap and move it all around your head.

We even had one cadet have it fall right off. We do not win the chin straps because we are just presenting the colors and such of that nature so there is really no need to and if we did it would look silly. Berets would be easer because you would be able to actually see and not worry about it falling off because the flag is nocking into it.

A properly fitted service cap should not have wiggle room.  If it does it is too big.  Also, as you have stated your people are all Honor guardsmen and by the Honor Guard uniform regulation are supposed to use the chin strap, this will also prevent it from falling off.  Lastly, when marching the flag pole should not be bouncing all over the place knocking into the brim.  You have 2 hands on the pole at fixed positions, there should be way more control than you are describing.

30-40 knots of wind can even make the strongest and most in control person have problems with the pole. BTDTWTT

[spaatzmom]

This was just an idea that was brought to me. I liked the idea because it would be something different that we could wear on occasion.

In addition I do want to say for anyone that doesn't know about the service caps, and actually has one, is that in my experience(with the american flag) they are a pain to march with. They continuously bounce on the brim of your service cap and move it all around your head.

We even had one cadet have it fall right off. We do not win the chin straps because we are just presenting the colors and such of that nature so there is really no need to and if we did it would look silly. Berets would be easer because you would be able to actually see and not worry about it falling off because the flag is nocking into it.

A properly fitted service cap should not have wiggle room.  If it does it is too big.  Also, as you have stated your people are all Honor guardsmen and by the Honor Guard uniform regulation are supposed to use the chin strap, this will also prevent it from falling off.  Lastly, when marching the flag pole should not be bouncing all over the place knocking into the brim.  You have 2 hands on the pole at fixed positions, there should be way more control than you are describing.

30-40 knots of wind can even make the strongest and most in control person have problems with the pole. BTDTWTT

30   Knots   =   34.6   MPH
35   Knots   =   40.3   MPH
40   Knots   =   46.1   MPH


25 - 31    Strong breeze large branches in motion; telephone wires whistle; umbrellas used with difficulty
32 - 38    Moderate gale whole trees in motion; inconvenience in walking against wind
39 - 46    Fresh gale breaks twigs off trees; generally impedes progress

I would hope the safety officer would have nixed the event in gale force winds.  Even boats are given craft warnings in those winds, both sail and motor. 

No one should expect a cadet generally between the ages of maybe 13 and 16 could handle that.

[a2capt]

The fastest we've had winds during a Color Guard competition have been in the 15-20 kt range gusting. For our typical wing competition location that's just the way it is. Sometimes none, sometimes nasty. But 30 kts? Really? The outdoor routine would be insane and be moved if it were that bad.

You might want to think just a little more before spouting off numbers. The standard drill routine would be slapping off flight caps and knocking over cadets..

[C/2d Lt]

We do not have chin straps because we are still supplying our honor guard with service caps. The ones that we have at our squadron do not have chin straps. I had to buy my own but because we all do not have one I do not wear mine.

[Eclipse]

We do not have chin straps because we are still supplying our honor guard with service caps. The ones that we have at our squadron do not have chin straps. I had to buy my own but because we all do not have one I do not wear mine.

You should not be wearing the hats at all until they are complete.

[MSG Mac]

This was just an idea that was brought to me. I liked the idea because it would be something different that we could wear on occasion.

In addition I do want to say for anyone that doesn't know about the service caps, and actually has one, is that in my experience(with the american flag) they are a pain to march with. They continuously bounce on the brim of your service cap and move it all around your head.

We even had one cadet have it fall right off. We do not win the chin straps because we are just presenting the colors and such of that nature so there is really no need to and if we did it would look silly. Berets would be easer because you would be able to actually see and not worry about it falling off because the flag is nocking into it.

The purpose of the chin strap is to prevent the service cap from falling off, such as when a flag swacks it. If the brim obstructs your view, you're wearing it wrong.

[Eclipse]

The purpose of the chin strap is to prevent the service cap from falling off, such as when a flag swacks it. If the brim obstructs your view, you're wearing it wrong.

That hardkewl image of the brim on your nose "ain't right".

Most wheel caps will withstand anything less then gale-force winds if it is the correct size, and worn properly - two things rarely seen with cadets,
since most of the time they are wearing a "hand-me down" or a "whatever I could get free" hat.

Couple that with no chin strap, and you've got a flag detail chasing their uniform parts all over the parade grounds.

Concentrate on being the best color guard you can be, and just wear your flight caps - certainly at least until you get properly outfitted wheel caps.

[dogboy]

Has anyone herd of wearing the beret for the color guard. Our squadron is thinking of requesting for our squadrons color guard to where the beret instead of the service cap that we currently wear. I think this is a good idea something cool and different. What are your thoughts?

What part of the word "uniform" do you not understand?

[lordmonar]

Has anyone herd of wearing the beret for the color guard. Our squadron is thinking of requesting for our squadrons color guard to where the beret instead of the service cap that we currently wear. I think this is a good idea something cool and different. What are your thoughts?

What part of the word "uniform" do you not understand?

I don't know let's ask the Active Duty types where we use distinctive uniform items to help develope esprit de corps in out special units and teams.

If everyone on the team is in teh same uniform.....then they are uniform.
If we all had to be that "uniform" we would not wear ribbons, rank insignia, or even name tapes.

[Danger]

Request the tiger stripes 

[C/2d Lt]

Getting back to my original question do you like the idea for wearing the beret for color guard.

[SarDragon]

No.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Getting back to my original question do you like the idea for wearing the beret for color guard.

It's been answered. Besides the "hardkewl" look, there's no reason for it.

[manfredvonrichthofen]

SPAATZMOM,  I have to say, maybe it's just bad luck that the photos of bad uniform wear keep getting published. I have been in two squadrons, and both had commanders that are strict about uniform compliance, and both have given me the OK to shut down a colorguard performance due to haircuts and things that cannot be fixed on the spot. Luckily I haven't had to do that, most cadets are Good about compliance, I have only had to send a couple of cadets home due to haircuts. Any time it needs done I'll do it, I haven't hesitated yet.

[spaatzmom]

SPAATZMOM,  I have to say, maybe it's just bad luck that the photos of bad uniform wear keep getting published. I have been in two squadrons, and both had commanders that are strict about uniform compliance, and both have given me the OK to shut down a colorguard performance due to haircuts and things that cannot be fixed on the spot. Luckily I haven't had to do that, most cadets are Good about compliance, I have only had to send a couple of cadets home due to haircuts. Any time it needs done I'll do it, I haven't hesitated yet.

That is good to hear, however I believe the majority of members are not so earnest in this issue.  I have been to way too many events where it is not the case, from squadron meetings all the way to National Conferences and NSCA's since 1999.  I do wish it were of more importance to all.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I still don't understand the antipathy toward berets in the U.S. military and its auxiliaries, or the attitude that they should be reserved for elite units only.

There are some distinctive berets that are universally recognised as for those units...maroon for airborne troops, tan for special forces...but in most militaries outside ours a beret is common issue.

I remember reading about 20 years ago where a Portuguese Air Force officer lamented that their national service was so short...he said "in that time, we can barely teach them to wear their berets properly."

[dogboy]

Has anyone herd of wearing the beret for the color guard. Our squadron is thinking of requesting for our squadrons color guard to where the beret instead of the service cap that we currently wear. I think this is a good idea something cool and different. What are your thoughts?

What part of the word "uniform" do you not understand?

I don't know let's ask the Active Duty types where we use distinctive uniform items to help develope esprit de corps in out special units and teams.

If everyone on the team is in teh same uniform.....then they are uniform.
If we all had to be that "uniform" we would not wear ribbons, rank insignia, or even name tapes.

I was in the Marine Corps. We don't have any special, distinctive unit uniforms for an elite because we are all elite. The Marine Corps has better esprit de corps than any other service yet manages without silly uniform variations that make a unit look like a rag-tag collection of misfits.

[ColonelJack]

I still don't understand the antipathy toward berets in the U.S. military and its auxiliaries, or the attitude that they should be reserved for elite units only.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, of course, and your mileage may vary, but ... to me, berets just look silly.

Of course, take that for what it's worth - I prefer the service cap.  Whatever your opinion of it, the service cap looks military.  Anybody can wear a beret (and many do).

It's a silly French hat.  (Donning armor for expected flames.....)

Jack

[Flying Pig]

In fact, with the Marines you could have a Unit Records Clerk and a Scout Sniper standing next to each other in uniform and there wouldn't be anything to denote who is who.  But yet every other service needs badges, special hats, patches and shoulder cords to make sure everyone knows your different. 
With other countries, its all relative.  Look at the French Foreign Legion.  They are issued green berets but its the Kepi Blanc that they all strive for.   So in countries where berets are common, there is some other sort of "hat" that everybody wants.  In the US, people dont wear berets, so therefore its different, which equals "special". 

[abdsp51]

I think there is a lot of animosity towards the beret because of the folks who;

a) don't care about their appearance
b) don't take the time to wear it properly
c) don't take the time to maintain it
d) all of the above

Now I wore a beret for 12 years and I wore it proudly and properly.  If one makes the effort it looks sharp, professional and very military.  Now that I can no longer wear it I would prefer to wear the service cap, as has been mentioned before if the OP wants to draft the proposal and submit it whats the worse someone can do deny it or approve it. 

[Ned]

Coincidentally, I was with a number of other soldiers at drill last Saturday and as we were leaving the restaurant after lunch, someone expressed heartfelt thanks to their diety that we no longer needed to use a mirror and two hands to put our hats on.

And every single one of us cheered.

[jimmydeanno]

Now that I can no longer wear it I would prefer to wear the service cap,

Nobody is stopping you from wearing a beret with your civilian clothes...just sayin'.

[Flying Pig]

My last drill weekend was the weekend berets became mandatory.  I never put it on. I gave it to one of the guys in my platoon.  Of course.... we were still wearing BDUs then too. 

[manfredvonrichthofen]

Now when it comes to BDUs, it's hard to beat the image of a beret over a PC  that's been in your pocket, even when the beret has been in your pocket.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I was in the Marine Corps. We don't have any special, distinctive unit uniforms for an elite because we are all elite. The Marine Corps has better esprit de corps than any other service yet manages without silly uniform variations that make a unit look like a rag-tag collection of misfits.

Which is why Marine Aviators don't distinguish themselves by wearing Navy "wings of gold," eh?

The "better esprit de corps" is debatable, but tell your story the way you believe is true.  I wasn't a Marine but I had Marines as various family members, including one who fought in Korea (Chosin Reservoir, I think).

Interservice rivalries have been around as long as there have been services.  Canada tried to eliminate it by unifying their services in 1968 and having them all wear the same green uniform (in fact, they were using the USMC as a model).  Sounded good on paper, but it didn't work.  The services are now separate again with distinctive uniforms.

I've sometimes wondered how it would work here...folding the Marines and Coast Guard into the Navy (more like the Royal Marines with the Royal Navy, not the distinct service within the Department of the Navy that the Marines are now), and the Air Force back into the Army.  Two services instead of five.

Berets can look good, if they're "crushed" to fit a person's distinctive head shape.

Field Marshal Bernard Montgomery looked pretty sharp in his...

[Flying Pig]

I was in the Marine Corps. We don't have any special, distinctive unit uniforms for an elite because we are all elite. The Marine Corps has better esprit de corps than any other service yet manages without silly uniform variations that make a unit look like a rag-tag collection of misfits.

The "better esprit de corps" is debatable, but tell your story the way you believe is true. 

I was in the Marines and the Army.  Believe me.....  there is no debate.  Im not saying one is better than the other, blah blah, but I dont think you will find many people who disagree that the Esprit de Corps present within the Marine Corps is legendary.  One a side note.... Montgomery looks like he was the loser in a bad game of Frisbee.

[jimmydeanno]

I was in the Marines and the Army.  Believe me.....  there is no debate.  Im not saying one is better than the other, blah blah, but I dont think you will find many people who disagree that the Esprit de Corps present within the Marine Corps is legendary.

I was sailing in the middle of the Caribbean once.  At our table for dinner was a young Marine LCpl, on his honeymoon with his new wife.  All the way from across the dining room, an older gentlemen noticed a Marine Corps tattoo on his arm.  That older Gentlemen was a WWII era Marine and paid the tab for the LCpl at the end of the week (to the tune of over $1,000) simply because of their brotherhood.

[Flying Pig]

Ive had, on two occasions, people pay for my meals.  I had no idea who they were in the restaurant.  Both times the waitress said someone took care of it and to tell you Semper Fi.  I almost missed a connecting flight once because of a delay and was late to the gate.  I was in my Alphas.  Back when we seemed to travel everywhere in them.  This was pre-9/11.  I was watching the plane taxi away from the gate.  It stopped from being pushed back and the tug pulled it back up to the walkway.  It was actually disconnected from the airplane and they had to reconnect and pull it back in.  A gate manager came over and opened the door and told me the pilot had seen me in the window running down the walk way to the gate and saw me standing in the window.   As I got on the plane, the cockpit door was open (remember those days?)  The pilot leaned out and said "Marines never leave a brother behind." 

Ehhh, not that an Air Force pilot wouldnt have done it for an airman or a Navy pilot wouldnt do it for a sailor.  Just my examples. 

[manfredvonrichthofen]

I have had an older gentleman pay for my meal once and the waitress told me he said stands alone... The 506 INF response when saluted with Currahee, the motto of the 506.

Another time I had one pay my meal and say something, I can't remember, about the 101st airborne.

And I paid for another couples meal seeing his CIB tattooed on his arm, and told the waitress to tell him to follow me, and the waitress came back and said lead the way.

It's nothing new to see or hear of, but with different things in the Army, like Infantry cords and stetsons, it makes it easier to tell who you can rely on because you have the same training. Why? Because an artilleryman doesn't have the same training as an infantryman, and vice versa.

[Flying Pig]

That was my experience.  In the Marines, it was just being a Marine.  Of course, we grunts still dogged the pogues.  In the Army (11B) it was more grunts who stuck together.  The other MOS's were like...."Ehhhh, yeah Im in the Army so what?"   Army grunts seemed to have more of the camaraderie that I saw in the Marines.  Beyond the grunts I didnt see a whole lot of sticking together in the Army. 

It was quite a culture shock to be honest. 

[Sapper168]

That was my experience.  In the Marines, it was just being a Marine.  Of course, we grunts still dogged the pogues.  In the Army (11B) it was more grunts who stuck together.  The other MOS's were like...."Ehhhh, yeah Im in the Army so what?"   Army grunts seemed to have more of the camaraderie that I saw in the Marines.  Beyond the grunts I didnt see a whole lot of sticking together in the Army. 

It was quite a culture shock to be honest.

I don't know, when i was in the army (12B) we had alot of camaraderie.  So much that we ended up in a feud with the 2/75th for a while over an incident on a demo range.   

[manfredvonrichthofen]

There is a lot of brotherhood and camaraderie in the 11 series MOSs. And that is to be expected. No one spends as much time in the dirt, in the woods shooting it up, or kicking in doors. The same sort of thing goes so far as CAP goes, ground teams spend more time together than the rest of CAP members, they spend time in the woods,.and dirt, and they worn out together, and cut up by thorns and what not, and they tend to take care of each other while their doing it, and for that they get a closer bond than the rest of CAP. Mission pilots tend to stay in a hotel or what have you, they get their missions and go about their way.

[Flying Pig]

. Mission pilots tend to stay in a hotel or what have you, they get their missions and go about their way.

Hey man... thats crap.  Have you ever had to walk up two flights of stairs to get ice out of the ice machine only to learn it was broken?  And then have to go fly the next morning?  Or worse yet, fly into an airport and discover the restaurant is closed?  Its not all roses buddy!

Work smarter not harder

[Garibaldi]

. Mission pilots tend to stay in a hotel or what have you, they get their missions and go about their way.

Hey man... thats crap.  Have you ever had to walk up two flights of stairs to get ice out of the ice machine only to learn it was broken?  And then have to go fly the next morning?  Or worse yet, fly into an airport and discover the restaurant is closed?  Its not all roses buddy!

Work smarter not harder

Don't forget when the remote for the TV is absent, or HBO is NOT on the menu. Sometimes, even the continental breakfast is just bagels and jelly.

[Flying Pig]

. Mission pilots tend to stay in a hotel or what have you, they get their missions and go about their way.

Hey man... thats crap.  Have you ever had to walk up two flights of stairs to get ice out of the ice machine only to learn it was broken?  And then have to go fly the next morning?  Or worse yet, fly into an airport and discover the restaurant is closed?  Its not all roses buddy!

Work smarter not harder

Don't forget when the remote for the TV is absent, or HBO is NOT on the menu. Sometimes, even the continental breakfast is just bagels and jelly.

Thats about the time I call the IC and render myself combat ineffective!

[Eclipse]

There is a lot of brotherhood and camaraderie in the 11 series MOSs. And that is to be expected. No one spends as much time in the dirt, in the woods shooting it up, or kicking in doors. The same sort of thing goes so far as CAP goes, ground teams spend more time together than the rest of CAP members, they spend time in the woods,.and dirt, and they worn out together, and cut up by thorns and what not, and they tend to take care of each other while their doing it, and for that they get a closer bond than the rest of CAP. Mission pilots tend to stay in a hotel or what have you, they get their missions and go about their way.

I disagree on the level that this is unique to group ops.

It is true of any segment of an organization that works as a true "team".  I guarantee you I've spent twice as much time in the trenches with a small group of people planning encampments, SARExs, and generally being one of the hands trying to keep the Sisyphus-like monster of CAP moving >up< the hill, no matter how slowly, then the most active ground team in CAP.

This is one of the positives of the sad fact that the same 20% of the membership of any respective wing does >everything<, you see the
same faces, and work with the same people no matter which mission you're performing.

Not to mention that those aircews in a hotel are just as likely to be in the field the next day leading a ground team, and those REMFs have been humping the mission for days of weeks before anyone shows up, many times literally bringing the entire show in on their backs, and by far the
majority of ground teams are just as transient, and usually more so, then the aircrews.

Good on 'ye for building esprit-de-corps, but the team spirit runs through all of us - it's probably one of the major reasons we all put up with CAP most of the time.

[Flying Pig]

I think we are comparing apples and oranges.  Comparing camaraderie between infantry soldiers, and part time volunteers isnt realistic. Until CAP starts living together, pooping together, eating together, sleeping in holes together and deploying for months at a time together it wont ever compare.  If you have never served in the military, its pretty hard to gauge.  No its not a bash on non-vet CAPers.  After 15 yrs as a cop, even on SWAT, I was never as close to the guys like I was after just a couple years in the grunts.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I think we are comparing apples and oranges.

It is apples and oranges to a large degree, but esprit de corps is as important to CAP in its own way as it is to any other organisation.

The difference is that with CAP viz. the military, you're not potentially risking your life and the lives of others by watching someone's six.

[lordmonar]

I think we are comparing apples and oranges.

It is apples and oranges to a large degree, but esprit de corps is as important to CAP in its own way as it is to any other organisation.

The difference is that with CAP viz. the military, you're not potentially risking your life and the lives of others by watching someone's six.

So?

90% of the military are not life and death "wacthing someone's six" situaitons....but we still need esprit de corps.