Ranger Headgear

[ranger_freak]

I propose that CAP Members Ranger 1st Class and higher should be awarded a Orange Beret, with a Hawk Mountain Logo for the emblem pin...who here agrees with me.

[Angus]

Oh joy another ranger topic.

I don't agree as not many people have attend HMRS and to boot there are things you learn there that you'll never use. 

[ranger_freak]

Oh joy another ranger topic.

I don't agree as not many people have attend HMRS and to boot there are things you learn there that you'll never use.

Like what...could you name at least ten things...that's one for each day your at Hawk for the summer school?

[Major Lord]

Until today, I was not sure I supported euthanasia.....But it may be the most compassionate option.

Major Lord

[Pylon]

who here agrees with me.

I don't think you'll find a single supporter among the members here.

[Major Carrales]

While I do not really support the idea of such headgear , ideally, if an exception is made for one special activity then one might have precedent for others. 

The real issue lies in where this could go.  How about campaign hats for rangers (life forest rangers) or tommy helmets for people in old coastal patrol units.  Or a cowboy hat or Stetson for the Texas Wing Lone Star Emergency Services Academy.

Maybe a "system wide" cover for all such activities...or, better yet...how about none.

[Angus]

Oh joy another ranger topic.

I don't agree as not many people have attend HMRS and to boot there are things you learn there that you'll never use.

Like what...could you name at least ten things...that's one for each day your at Hawk for the summer school?

My question, how long have you been in the program?  Also have you been to any other activities other than HMRS? 

[PHall]

Don't feed the TROLL folks.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Oh joy another ranger topic.

I don't agree as not many people have attend HMRS and to boot there are things you learn there that you'll never use.

Like what...could you name at least ten things...that's one for each day your at Hawk for the summer school?

Anything and everything that is "Ranger" Specific to begin with...

[ranger_freak]

Oh joy another ranger topic.

I don't agree as not many people have attend HMRS and to boot there are things you learn there that you'll never use.

Like what...could you name at least ten things...that's one for each day your at Hawk for the summer school?

Anything and everything that is "Ranger" Specific to begin with...

Your logic and argument stand on weak ground, my good Sir.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Oh joy another ranger topic.

I don't agree as not many people have attend HMRS and to boot there are things you learn there that you'll never use.

Like what...could you name at least ten things...that's one for each day your at Hawk for the summer school?

Anything and everything that is "Ranger" Specific to begin with...

Your logic and argument stand on weak ground, my good Sir.

How so? Anything outside of the GTM training is not something you'd be allowed to perform on ANY CAP mission.

[Angus]

Oh joy another ranger topic.

I don't agree as not many people have attend HMRS and to boot there are things you learn there that you'll never use.

Like what...could you name at least ten things...that's one for each day your at Hawk for the summer school?

Anything and everything that is "Ranger" Specific to begin with...

Your logic and argument stand on weak ground, my good Sir.

How so? Anything outside of the GTM training is not something you'd be allowed to perform on ANY CAP mission.

It's burried on a thread somewhere so use the serach function but I remember reading some GTL left a person behind cause he was one of your elitest Rangers.  he show's up to prosecute a mission with his ladder laced boots and rope tied around his waist if I remember.  this just goes to show that these "rangers" are a waste of time.  If you want to call yourself a "Ranger" go join the U.S. Ranger Corps along with He Who Shall Not Be Named and have a ball. 

[bflynn]

Tell you what - get the AD Rangers to sign off on the idea and I'll support it.

Until then...just realize that a beret is a stupid piece of military headgear.  One ear is cold, one is hot, it smells when it gets wet, needs a ton of maintenance, it's hard to get set correctly and you have to reshape it constantly to get the right fit - this is all from experience, I eventually gave it up and just wore the BDU hat.  If that weren't enough it is also an appropriately fussy French fashion statement by young women.

[Pylon]

Here's the thing.  Civil Air Patrol has an established system for recognizing participation in special activities.  Every special activity and NCSA is unique and they run the gamut from ES-training to career-familiarization to skill-building (like Flight Academy).  Yet, with the huge amount of awesomness and uniqueness found in all of our various activities, we've found a system of recognition that works for darn near all of them: an activity patch with a standard placement on the BDU and corporate field uniform left chest pocket (you even get to pick, as an individual, which activity patch you're personally most proud of and wear that one, if you choose to) and on the blues, NCSAs get the NCSA ribbon.

Why is HMRS so different from every single CAP special activity (many of which are equally awesome, useful, and well-attended) that it can't possibly have recognition which fits into the system of recognition that, as an organization, we've already developed and adopted for special activities?

[Noble Six]

HMRS has better cool aid [sarcasm]

[Angus]

I'd have to agree about their Kool Aid.

[ol'fido]

Oh joy another ranger topic.

I don't agree as not many people have attend HMRS and to boot there are things you learn there that you'll never use.

Like what...could you name at least ten things...that's one for each day your at Hawk for the summer school?

Humility is apparently off the list. Otherwise, I agree don't feed the troll.

[NCRblues]

Wait wait...

Do the "rangers" have not just an authorized ranger tab but also a normal NCSA patch, boot laces, pistol belts, orange hats (ranger rolled to the nth degree) and ascots?

Now you need a beret as well huh?

RANGER THAT 

[commando1]

I normally don't post meme's...
But when I do, its about "rangers..."
http://cheezburger.com/6346446848

[sarmed1]

I propose that CAP Members Ranger 1st Class and higher should be awarded a Orange Beret, with a Hawk Mountain Logo for the emblem pin...who here agrees with me.

If this was facebook I would choose to DISLIKE this idea.......  Until there is a clearly defined "skill set" that a "Ranger" qualified GTM brings to the mission table I dont see the need for any kind of recognition beyond what there already is

How so? Anything outside of the GTM training is not something you'd be allowed to perform on ANY CAP mission.

perhaps you should re-read the 60-3: 1-31 a-d...it starts on page 19.

c. The following technical or specialized operations are considered acceptable but still require prior written approval:
(1) Technical (Rope) Rescue or Mountain Rescue
(2) Canine Search and Rescue
(3) Mounted Search and Rescue
(4) Urban Search and Rescue
Additional areas will be reviewed on a case-by-case basis. Questions on other areas should be addressed to the NHQ CAP/DO.

mk

[sarmed1]

Oh joy another ranger topic.

I don't agree as not many people have attend HMRS and to boot there are things you learn there that you'll never use.

compared to.......?  HMRS typically runs somewhere between 100-200 students per summer school in a 10 day activity.  Compared to other NCSA's I'd say thats pretty many CAP members.

I would wager that when it comes to GTM skills there are a lot of members that will never use what they learned; that doesnt automatically negate that information/skills that they learned. 
Just out of curiousity;  which "things" do you mean? (the R/1 knot skills for water knot, swiss seat and chest harness are pretty much the only ones I see....thats a pretty small part of the school just FYI)


Based on my research attached are the list of skills that are on the Ranger skill sheets thru R/1.  table 1 are all of the GTM skills; attachment two are the "Ranger" specific skills. 
mk

[Eclipse]

compared to.......?  HMRS typically runs somewhere between 100-200 students per summer school in a 10 day activity.  Compared to other NCSA's I'd say thats pretty many CAP members.

You're describing a medium sized encampment.

What I'd like to propose is that there be a moratorium against any more HMRS threads beyond simple announcements by any members with less than 100 posts.  That should give anyone sufficient time to spend here and snack on reality for a bit and negate the drive-bys.

There's nothing new under the sun here, and won't be in the foreseeable future.

[Major Lord]

I have nothing against the brand of [training] <edit: mod> that our badgers acquire in "Ranger School" ( I did not know that fingers could be made to feel like they are vomiting until I typed "Ranger School" in connection with a Cadet activity) Yes, some of the skills are transferable, and the tenacity and hardening will (hopefully) make them better cadets, SAR Operators, and probably and put them in the top ten percent  of Map and Compass people in CAP. That being said, I have to wonder if their obsession with wearing girl scout hats (And holding down my gorge........) "Ranger Tabs" ( Thank god I ate a small meal tonight) and general fixation on everything peripheral and unimportant in their training speaks to the seriousness of those selected to attend.

Major Lord

[RogueLeader]

To the op. Why us this not in then uniform section as you are talking about uniforms, and not about the lack of skills?

[fyrfitrmedic]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Pavlov

Just sayin'.

[Ranger4life]

I completely agree with Ranger Freak. The orange beret would look freakin awesome. Plus, it would only be allowed for a select group of people ( ranger 1st classes and up). Why does blue beret get a beret if Hawk cant have one too?

[Eclipse]

I completely agree with Ranger Freak. The orange beret would look freakin awesome. Plus, it would only be allowed for a select group of people ( ranger 1st classes and up). Why does blue beret get a beret if Hawk cant have one too?

A: It's name.

B: You don't think HMRS already has enough unique identifiers?

Question:  Where did you hear about this conversation?  What motivated you to join the CAPTalk community?

[MIKE]

My guess would be that he completely agrees with ranger_freak because he is ranger_freak.

[RogueLeader]

My guess would be that he completely agrees with ranger_freak because he is ranger_freak.

So does that get both profiles banned, or just one?

[BGNightfall]

Ranger Thread Checklist:

Commentary to deride Ranger Bling: check, and check
Commentary to deride "useless" Ranger task qualification: check
sarmed1 defends Ranger task qualification: check
Direct to search function to seek other, closed Ranger threads: check
Comment/Image on pummeling of deceased equine:
Comparison to NESA:
Comparison to NBB: Check
Call for thread lock:

Bonus Points:
Thread post in wrong location, relocated: +10
OP replies with new username to defend position: +20

[Phil Hirons, Jr.]

<SARCASM>
Sure. Let's authorize the orange beret, but only in size 13 or larger
</SARCASM>

[a2capt]

Why does blue beret get a beret if Hawk cant have one too?

Rename the whole thing National Orange Beret, and drop all the other specific bling stuff.
As an alternative, you could use gray berets, since it's a Keystone State event, that would give it a link..

[BGNightfall]

For the OP:

If an orange beret is something that you think would improve the Ranger program, then I suggest that you write a paper on what need it fills and how it would benefit the program.  Do some solid research on this, to include viability, and address the negative factors as well (some of which have been voiced on this thread).  Use proper, concise language, and organize your argument into clear bullet points.  Have it proofread by an older cadet, or a Senior Member for spelling or grammar errors.  Once your well-reasoned report is complete, submit it to your chain of command.  The answer may be "No.", or no answer at all.

[ZigZag911]

I see one definite advantage to Orange Beret, and would like to see it authorized for ALL HMRS graduates, assuming it could be approved for wear with service uniforms as well as BDUs.

What advantage, you wonder? Well, it would enable the rest of us to recognize them on sight, rather than wait for them to speak and spew nonsense!

Hey, if they want to wear brightly colored clothing as "warning labels", why try to stop 'em?!?

[Angus]

I see one definite advantage to Orange Beret, and would like to see it authorized for ALL HMRS graduates, assuming it could be approved for wear with service uniforms as well as BDUs.

What advantage, you wonder? Well, it would enable the rest of us to recognize them on sight, rather than wait for them to speak and spew nonsense!

Hey, if they want to wear brightly colored clothing as "warning labels", why try to stop 'em?!?

LOL I love it. 

[sarmed1]

For the OP:

If an orange beret is something that you think would improve the Ranger program, then I suggest that you write a paper on what need it fills and how it would benefit the program.  Do some solid research on this, to include viability, and address the negative factors as well (some of which have been voiced on this thread).  Use proper, concise language, and organize your argument into clear bullet points.  Have it proofread by an older cadet, or a Senior Member for spelling or grammar errors.  Once your well-reasoned report is complete, submit it to your chain of command.  The answer may be "No.", or no answer at all.

that has to be one of the best replys/suggestions to any "bling" issue I have seen here yet.

mk

[sarmed1]

Ranger Thread Checklist:

Commentary to deride Ranger Bling: check, and check
Commentary to deride "useless" Ranger task qualification: check
sarmed1 defends Ranger task qualification: check
Direct to search function to seek other, closed Ranger threads: check
Comment/Image on pummeling of deceased equine:
Comparison to NESA:
Comparison to NBB: Check
Call for thread lock:

Bonus Points:
Thread post in wrong location, relocated: +10
OP replies with new username to defend position: +20

You forgot someone has to add in about thier experience with Rangers during Katrina

mk

[Майор Хаткевич]

You forgot someone has to add in about thier experience with Rangers during Katrina

Funny, that's what I always think of when Ranger stuff is brought up.

P.S. I wasn't there, just heard the stories.

[sarmed1]

You forgot someone has to add in about thier experience with Rangers during Katrina

Funny, that's what I always think of when Ranger stuff is brought up.

P.S. I wasn't there, just heard the stories.

me either; it is at least one of the more legitimate gripes that I dont see a good excuse for.....

mk

[Extremepredjudice]

Is there something in the water at HMRS? Rangers seem to make up a very large amount of the trolls on CT...

[EMT-83]

It's not the water, it's the Kool Aid.

Seriously, Hawk participants are really gung ho about the program, and they're pretty vocal about it.

My personal opinion, take away the attitude and the bling BS; it would be an excellent program.

[PHall]

It's not the water, it's the Kool Aid.

Seriously, Hawk participants are really gung ho about the program, and they're pretty vocal about it.

My personal opinion, take away the attitude and the bling BS; it would be an excellent program.

Getting you some actual ES ratings would be nice too.

[Spartan]

My personal opinion, take away the attitude and the bling BS; it would be an excellent program.

I think that the tab should be enough.  When a person adds all the bling, they detract from a professional appearance that is often mistaken for part of the military.  If people want to wear ALL the bling and in my opinion look silly, I think they can do so on the mountain where their bling has meaning.

[fyrfitrmedic]

For the OP:

If an orange beret is something that you think would improve the Ranger program, then I suggest that you write a paper on what need it fills and how it would benefit the program.  Do some solid research on this, to include viability, and address the negative factors as well (some of which have been voiced on this thread).  Use proper, concise language, and organize your argument into clear bullet points.  Have it proofread by an older cadet, or a Senior Member for spelling or grammar errors.  Once your well-reasoned report is complete, submit it to your chain of command.  The answer may be "No.", or no answer at all.

+1 - Excellent suggestion.

[fyrfitrmedic]

Ranger Thread Checklist:

Commentary to deride Ranger Bling: check, and check
Commentary to deride "useless" Ranger task qualification: check
sarmed1 defends Ranger task qualification: check
Direct to search function to seek other, closed Ranger threads: check
Comment/Image on pummeling of deceased equine:
Comparison to NESA:
Comparison to NBB: Check
Call for thread lock:

Bonus Points:
Thread post in wrong location, relocated: +10
OP replies with new username to defend position: +20

You left out several varieties of knee-jerk reactions from the usual suspects...

[SarDragon]

Well, is the horse dead, or not?

Tick, tock. Tick, tock. Tick, tock.

[Dad2-4]

Nah. Hit it a few more times to make sure. This is entertaining. 

[Extremepredjudice]

We need this smiley.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

I don't care how many times you've been to HMRS, you are not the elites that you may think you are.

Go to Lackland and tell your TI how "elite" you are because you've been to HMRS, and see how fast you end up with every crap detail s/he can find for you (and they're quite creative on that front) and how quickly you lose the respect of your flight mates.

You don't need an orange beret, but a dose of humility wouldn't be amiss.

You are still a cadet, and subject to command, management, advisement and (if need be) discipline by senior member officers and NCO's pursuant to all applicable CAP regulations.

And there is no way under the sun you are going to get the Air Force to approve wearing an orange beret with the AF uniform.

The orange beret is a mark of distinction in many air forces' SAR ops, as with this RCAF Corporal:



I am in favour of CAP having an optional beret, but I would want to take care that it isn't stepping on a truly elite military unit's turf.

That said...

TICK, TICK, TICK...

[fyrfitrmedic]

[MSG Mac]

I propose that CAP Members Ranger 1st Class and higher should be awarded a Orange Beret, with a Hawk Mountain Logo for the emblem pin...who here agrees with me.

NO,! NADA! NYET! NON! NEIN!

[ColonelJack]

I propose that CAP Members Ranger 1st Class and higher should be awarded a Orange Beret, with a Hawk Mountain Logo for the emblem pin...who here agrees with me.

NO,! NADA! NYET! NON! NEIN!

Don't mince words ... what do you really think?

Jack

[sarmed1]

I propose that CAP Members Ranger 1st Class and higher should be awarded a Orange Beret, with a Hawk Mountain Logo for the emblem pin...who here agrees with me.

another peice of useless uniform item is the last thing HMRS (or CAP for that fact) needs.
Lets see:
Orange hats....um its encouraged to wear hardhats in the field so the visability argument is no good
Ascots:  OK the instant visual identification idea sounds good; however everyone takes them off as soon as it gets hot anyway
Whistle & chain:  maybe
Pistol belt:  useless (unless there is 24 hour gear attached to it)
Ladder laced jump boots:  thankfully I havent seen this one since the 90's

mk

[MSG Mac]

The definition of "uniform" means that everything is basically the same. You did earn something at Hawk Mountain- a ground team badge! You are not the first (nor the thousandth) to suggest a beret be added to CAP's uniform. So far, none of these suggestions have been approved at the Wing, Region, or National level. The one exception is the Blue Beret NCSA,which can only be worn at the activity.
Bottom line is berets are expensive, give no protection from the sun or rain, and CAP already has a plethora of approved headwear.

[Extremepredjudice]

The one exception is the Blue Beret NCSA,which can only be worn at the activity.

Negative sir, see: http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/2012_03_12_Uniform_Manual_EDA9CCE9FE03A.pdf

j. Blue Beret awarded at National Cadet Special Activity.  The standard AF blue beret
with the Blue Beret activity hat device may be worn with the BDU uniform after the completion
of the activity.

[SarDragon]

The one exception is the Blue Beret NCSA,which can only be worn at the activity.

Negative sir, see: http://www.capmembers.com/media/cms/2012_03_12_Uniform_Manual_EDA9CCE9FE03A.pdf

j. Blue Beret awarded at National Cadet Special Activity.  The standard AF blue beret
with the Blue Beret activity hat device may be worn with the BDU uniform after the completion
of the activity.

That is a relatively recent change. Through most of the life of the blue beret, it was permitted only at the activity.

[Extremepredjudice]

it was permitted only at the activity.

FLWG has a supplement that authorized the blue beret.

Never use absolutes, sir.

See: http://flwg.us/cap-resources/publications/supplements/page19654950.aspx

Line 4, Added: As authorized by National Board amendment to CAPM 39-1 in March 2006, The blue
beret will be worn only by members who have completed the National Blue Beret Encampment at
Oshkosh and have proper documentation to support such attendance. The Beret may be worn with
either the green BDU's or blue utility uniform but is not authorized with any combination of blue Air
Force style service uniform. Wear of the beret is PROHIBITED when on a military installation within
FLWG.

[Майор Хаткевич]

And INWG authorizes Blue Beret's with grade on them for some sort of criteria. The point is that for the majority of CAP and time, berets weren't seen outside of wrongdoers, NBB, and INWG.

[SarDragon]

it was permitted only at the activity.

FLWG has a supplement that authorized the blue beret.

Never use absolutes, sir.

See: http://flwg.us/cap-resources/publications/supplements/page19654950.aspx

Line 4, Added: As authorized by National Board amendment to CAPM 39-1 in March 2006, The blue
beret will be worn only by members who have completed the National Blue Beret Encampment at
Oshkosh and have proper documentation to support such attendance. The Beret may be worn with
either the green BDU's or blue utility uniform but is not authorized with any combination of blue Air
Force style service uniform. Wear of the beret is PROHIBITED when on a military installation within
FLWG.

You should follow your own advice.

Did you read my post? I don't recall using an absolute. I said, "Through most of the life of the blue beret, it was permitted only at the activity." The 'most' part is debatable, but I think, accepting 2006 as the first general authorization, 40 out of 46 years not being authorized outside the activity constitutes 'most' in my book.

If you are trolling, or arguing for argument's sake, you can stop right now. If you have something new, or constructive, to say, go for it, but stop the baiting.

[NCRblues]

Ah yes! We have made the jump to the blue beret...I wondered how long it would take.

[SarDragon]

Fifty-three posts. Not too bad.   

[Major Carrales]

It's not the water, it's the Kool Aid.

Seriously, Hawk participants are really gung ho about the program, and they're pretty vocal about it.

My personal opinion, take away the attitude and the bling BS; it would be an excellent program.

Getting you some actual ES ratings would be nice too.

At least the Texas Wing Ground Team School...Lone Star Emergency Services Academy is focused on doing just that.  One can leave the week long training with at least a GTM 3 or 2.

[CAPSGT]

This thread went downhill long ago.  Time to put it out of it's misery.