CAP / Boy Scout volunteer time

[davidsinn]

Perhaps I should point out that the service project is not the sole requirement for the Eagle award. It's merely one step on the way. So in essence you don't get the Eagle for completing the project, you get it for completing the requirements for the award which happens to include the service project.

[Eclipse]

Perhaps I should point out that the service project is not the sole requirement for the Eagle award. It's merely one step on the way. So in essence you don't get the Eagle for completing the project, you get it for completing the requirements for the award which happens to include the service project.

Using this as an example, the community service in question was not performed "because", it was performed as part of a larger effort towards another organization's goals.  An organization which will award that cadet nicely when completed.

You're splitting hairs to try and separate this for argument's sake.

[ßτε]

Eclipse,

For the life of me, I cannot find any way to justify not giving a CAP member an award simply because they also get recognition from another organization. There is nothing wrong with two different organizations recognizing an individual for the same thing if each organization finds it is worthy of recognition.

[Eclipse]

So your company gives you time off equal to some community service project, you should get a CSR, too?

[majdomke]

Why are we attempting to be so stingy? It's not like the cadet is going for a Meritorious Service medal or something. It's a CSR. A RIBBON. If the cadet is doing community service OUTSIDE of CAP, it meets the regs and should be acknowledged. Not to mention the scout master would need to sign-off on the hours for our purposes. If I were the scout master and felt it was double-dipping or deceptive, why sign off on the hours then? Just my two cents here but very few cadets ever go for the CSR because 60 hrs is pretty hard to obtain when doing so many other things in life. I think in four years as a DCC I've awarded maybe 2 or 3 of them. I've had many more who were interested and tried but just couldn't get the hours done. IMO we should give cadets as much as we can to encourage them and keep them active in CAP. Their being awarded the CSR may also inspire other cadets to try and get one themselves. I can only see positive outcome here as the increase in cadets doing community service is very much in keeping with our core beliefs.

[Eclipse]

I'm not being stingy, I'm trying to hold the award for what it is intended.

We've got more than "plenty" of CSR's in my AOR, and perhaps my attitude is shaped by far too many people
who spend their evenings ribbon trolling for anything they can squeeze into CAP.

I have never personally denied one, nor have I told any of my CC's, explicitly to deny one, but I have advised them
on occasion, and my personal bar is that it should be a project with a set time frame, agreed upon in advance, and
something you are not doing anyway as a matter of course, regardless.

[Ed Bos]

I'm not being stingy, I'm trying to hold the award for what it is intended.

It's intended to recognize community service completed outside of CAP. The reg doesn't specify that it can't be completed with any particular agency, any particular reason, or any other restriction. If that was the intention then it would also be spelled out.

A member at a squadron shouldn't be adding their own intentions on top of a clearly written directive.

[N Harmon]

Hypothetical: A member volunteers at the local hospital, and receives a certificate of appreciation for it.

Does that mean those volunteer hours should not count towards a CAP community service award?

[Eclipse]

Hypothetical: A member volunteers at the local hospital, and receives a certificate of appreciation for it.

Does that mean those volunteer hours should not count towards a CAP community service award?

Was the community service something discussed in advance with the commander and approved?  Or has the member been
working there for years, read 39-3 and now wants a ribbon with two attachments?

[Ed Bos]

Was the community service something discussed in advance with the commander and approved?  Or has the member been
working there for years, read 39-3 and now wants a ribbon with two attachments?

Does that matter? Where is the pre-approval of the any commander required for community service?

[Eclipse]

Where is it not?   As we've discussed, absent a national standard of acceptability, it is the subjective decision
of the approving CC as to what qualifies.

Some of you have said that court-mandated service would not get a ribbon?  Who decided that?

Just as some wings hand out Comm Comms and UC's like they were candy, so is this up to the person signing the 2a.

[N Harmon]

Okay, then another hypothetical: A squadron commander announces he will not approve any community service ribbons unless the volunteer service was at risk of life and limb, like volunteering as a firefighter. "We don't give out pansy awards for picking up trash on the side of the road in my Civil Air Patrol", he says.

Still comfortable with commanders having subjective decisions over regulations that spell out the criteria for certain awards?

[Eclipse]

Yes, because, while I wouldn't agree with the extreme you portray, that is within that CC's prerogative.

We can take this to the extremes on both ends to no point.  My criteria for a CSR is mine, and within my authority, yours can be different.

There is no specific standard, just like most decorations.  We all know people who have DSM's for pushing paper, and people who have toiled
tirelessly with nothing.  Such is the CAP universe.

[RADIOMAN015]

So let me see if I understand this correctly  --  The local CAP unit adopts part of a highway to pick up the trash on and a sign is even put up.  The members go out weekly and clean up that highway in utility uniform.  Those hours would not count towards community service, since it was done as a CAP function
RM 

[Eclipse]

So let me see if I understand this correctly  --  The local CAP unit adopts part of a highway to pick up the trash on and a sign is even put up.  The members go out weekly and clean up that highway in utility uniform.  Those hours would not count towards community service, since it was done as a CAP function

39-3 specifically stipulates that the service must be non-CAP activities.

Quoth the KB:

The Community Service Ribbon is intended to recognize cadets and seniors for community service outside of CAP activities. Such service might be in a tutoring program, food bank, special Olympics, highway clean-up, etc. It would not include CAP organized activities such as airshows, aerospace education, search and rescue or any of the other typical activities CAP volunteers are routinely involved with in their community as CAP members. The idea of the ribbon is to encourage and recognize members who volunteer in their communities beyond their CAP activities.

There are a few assumptions about this ribbon:
1. That the community service occurred outside of CAP.
2. That a CAP member is not verifying the cadet's community service (unless, of course, this CAP member can speak for the outside organization, and sign the verifying letter for the outside organization).

[SarDragon]

So let me see if I understand this correctly  --  The local CAP unit adopts part of a highway to pick up the trash on and a sign is even put up.  The members go out weekly and clean up that highway in utility uniform.  Those hours would not count towards community service, since it was done as a CAP function
RM

That is correct. As is the case for CAP members helping out at the local air show.

[RADIOMAN015]

So let me see if I understand this correctly  --  The local CAP unit adopts part of a highway to pick up the trash on and a sign is even put up.  The members go out weekly and clean up that highway in utility uniform.  Those hours would not count towards community service, since it was done as a CAP function

39-3 specifically stipulates that the service must be non-CAP activities.

Quoth the KB:

The Community Service Ribbon is intended to recognize cadets and seniors for community service outside of CAP activities. Such service might be in a tutoring program, food bank, special Olympics, highway clean-up, etc. It would not include CAP organized activities such as airshows, aerospace education, search and rescue or any of the other typical activities CAP volunteers are routinely involved with in their community as CAP members. The idea of the ribbon is to encourage and recognize members who volunteer in their communities beyond their CAP activities.

Well thank you for the information.    I just don't see how this award benefits CAP as an organization   IF we are to make CAP a known entity in our communities, it would seem to me that we as a CAP unit would engage in helping out in the above examples in full CAP uniform.

Again it seems to me that CAP went and adopted an award that the USAF decided to do, without giving much thought to what our goals are in CAP. 

Frankly as the PAO my goal would be for members of my squadron to be doing things that help the squadron or helping others on behalf of the squadron, so they have a positive experience with the CAP and the unit.  IF any of them do something on their own time than let that organization recognize them.  Their membership in CAP has absolutely nothing to do with their other volunteer efforts.
RM

[caphornbuckle]

So from what I am understanding, if a boy saved someone from drowning and gets a Lifesaving Medal from the Boy Scouts, he wouldn't be able to get the Lifesaving Award in CAP?  That would be considered double-dipping as well.  At least that's how I'm reading some of the naysayers comments on here.

[Eclipse]

So from what I am understanding, if a boy saved someone from drowning and gets a Lifesaving Medal from the Boy Scouts, he wouldn't be able to get the Lifesaving Award in CAP?  That would be considered double-dipping as well.  At least that's how I'm reading some of the naysayers comments on here.

I would have to think long and hard about that, and saving a life is not exactly the same as cleaning a highway.

[indygreg]

So from what I am understanding, if a boy saved someone from drowning and gets a Lifesaving Medal from the Boy Scouts, he wouldn't be able to get the Lifesaving Award in CAP?  That would be considered double-dipping as well.  At least that's how I'm reading some of the naysayers comments on here.

I'd have no problem with a cadet getting a Lifesaving award in that situation.  In fact, I'd have no problem with the scenario described by the OP.  The way some kids are today, I'd go out of my way to award any young person who voluntarily helps out the community, no matter if it was with another organization or not.  It also wouldn't matter if another organization recognized that same service.  If a $2 ribbon is what it takes to get a cadet to start helping others, fine.  You never know, it may catch on with them.