CAP / Boy Scout volunteer time

[Major Carrales]

Frankly if you are getting an award or designation from your volunteer activity from another agency, than I see no reason for allowing in double dipping.

This entire CAP community service ribbon is assine.  Why don't we just do things because it nice to help our community/others in need and our recognition is just knowing we did the right thing  

Again this is another AF wanna bee adaptation that got put on the books.  Last time I looked isn't CAP about "Serving Communities, Above & Beyond?"
RM

And some wonder why people appear to pick on your arguments...this lacks every sort of tact necessary for free and civil discourse.  C'mon, there is nothing wrong with awarding a person's service.  "Double Dipping?!?" ...scoff...that is the only ridiculous notion I have detected in the past few posts.

It is an award for community service...as honorable as any a reason one can think off.   


My point on the matter and opinion is this...
COMMUNITY SERVICE RIBBON- For doing good in your community as expressed in "to be of service to my COMMUNITY, STATE and NATON."   Why would one find fault for an award that is enshrined in the CADET OATH?

RED SERVICE RIBBON- For going good works in CAP for a given period of time.  There is nothing wrong with an award for people who give time from their lives to make CAP work.


Again, CAP may not be about "Serving Communities, Above & Beyond?"...but it is about serving "COMMUNITY, STATE and NATION."

[SARDOC]

IMHO...The BSA is definitely outside the Scope of the Civil Air Patrol.  Since Community Service is not necessarily required in ALL BSA programs...The Community Service should totally be recognized in Civil Air Patrol regardless of his affiliation with the BSA.

Civil Air Patrol member volunteers for the Local Rescue Squad...Shouldn't they be recognized for their continued Community Service even if they receive an award from the Rescue Squad?  The Concept of "Double Dipping" is ridiculous.

Bring me to another point about Squadron Commander denying an award for which they are NOT the approving authority...that always gives me heartburn.  WIWAD The award request ALWAYS had to be submitted to the approving Authority.  For Example, Medal X The Approving Authority is the Wing Commander, Member Submits to Squadron Commander who either "Forwards, Recommending Approval" or "Forwards, Recommending Disapproval" with Justification.    Certain Awards are supposed to be reviewed by the Approving Authority to make sure the criteria for the award was met and that the Regulation wasn't being misinterpreted by the lower echelons to prevent Erroneous Awards or lack thereof

[Al Sayre]

IMHO, the only Community Service outside CAP that you would have a leg to disallow would be that assigned by a Judge as part of sentencing.

[Major Carrales]

IMHO, the only Community Service outside CAP that you would have a leg to disallow would be that assigned by a Judge as part of sentencing.

Agreed...I marvel at those who post desiring to deny people CAP awards (and then complain that we cannot retain members or that we don't recognize people for their contributions...i.e. comments like "too bad people learn what a CAPF 2b is before they ever hear of a CAPF 120)

[nesagsar]

WIWAC I received my CSM based on my Eagle Project and other community service. The Eagle Project took over 2 years to complete and I logged 178 hours of community service with my squadron based on that one project. In addition I participated in other scout projects and helped at a food distribution center on my own. If the CSM accepts devices (which I believed to be correct but have since been told otherwise) then I would qualify for several silver devices. If there needs to be precedent for awarding a CSM based on Eagle hours then I guess I am it.

[Eclipse]

^ Yes, and for that work you received an Eagle Scout badge.  Congratulations.

Why should you also get something from CAP?

The only thing above that I would approve a CSM for would be the direct service to the soup kitchens.  The other activities you are already
receiving awards from someone else for.

[davidsinn]

Why should you also get something from CAP?

Because the reg doesn't give a qualifier that you can't earn something else for the same time commitment. This is no different than an active duty person using CAP time for their community service stuff is it?

[Eclipse]

Why should you also get something from CAP?

Because the reg doesn't give a qualifier that you can't earn something else for the same time commitment. This is no different than an active duty person using CAP time for their community service stuff is it?

Yes, it is - because in a work or military context, CAP is community service.

But in a compartitive sense, the BSA and CAP are like, all-volunteer organizations.

Also, I am not concerned if other organizations give awards for CAP service, that is their business.  My only concern is maintaining the integrity of
CAP awards I am asked to approve, and IMHO, double-awarding people serves no purpose but dec-trolling.

[DBlair]

The regulation cites community service outside of CAP.

Was it verified volunteer/unpaid community service done outside of CAP? If yes, then that is where CAP's involvement in the matter ends. If the person is otherwise recognized for this service by another organization or entity, that is of no concern to us as it is outside of our jurisdiction.



Note: An obvious exception would be that community service as part of any Court-ordered sanction is not voluntary, and as such does not qualify for CAP community service hours.

[davidsinn]

Why should you also get something from CAP?

Because the reg doesn't give a qualifier that you can't earn something else for the same time commitment. This is no different than an active duty person using CAP time for their community service stuff is it?

Yes, it is - because in a work or military context, CAP is community service.

But in a compartitive sense, the BSA and CAP are like, all-volunteer organizations.

Also, I am not concerned if other organizations give awards for CAP service, that is their business.  My only concern is maintaining the integrity of
CAP awards I am asked to approve, and IMHO, double-awarding people serves no purpose but dec-trolling.

So it's all community service then? I don't understand how it wouldn't count because it's all community service.

[Eclipse]

So it's all community service then? I don't understand how it wouldn't count because it's all community service.

How many awards to we give people for the same service?

On my desk it is one.  On yours, it can be two.

[jimmydeanno]

Comparatively, I suppose we could use the "Military Outstanding Volunteer Service Medal" (MOVSM) as an example.  If a military member who is also a CAP member, volunteers 100 hours at the local soup kitchen, outside of their service to CAP, would you say that they don't qualify for the CAP Community Service Medal because they used that 100 hours as a bullet in their MOVSM package, or visa versa?

[Eclipse]

Yes.

[RVT]

Double dipping is not cool IN MY OPINION.  The regs say otherwise.  If I was the CC I would not approve and issue the letter.

And the cadet would have a valid IG complaint.  And considering you just said you would not follow regulations because you as a commander chose not to, it would be a fairly easy complaint to process.

[davidsinn]

So it's all community service then? I don't understand how it wouldn't count because it's all community service.

How many awards to we give people for the same service?

On my desk it is one.  On yours, it can be two.

We(CAP) are only giving them one. Double dipping is like planning and executing a conference and getting both an achievement award and comm comm.

[Major Carrales]

Why should you also get something from CAP?

Because the reg doesn't give a qualifier that you can't earn something else for the same time commitment. This is no different than an active duty person using CAP time for their community service stuff is it?

Yes, it is - because in a work or military context, CAP is community service.

But in a compartitive sense, the BSA and CAP are like, all-volunteer organizations.

Also, I am not concerned if other organizations give awards for CAP service, that is their business.  My only concern is maintaining the integrity of
CAP awards I am asked to approve, and IMHO, double-awarding people serves no purpose but dec-trolling.

Then you are in violation of the "cite please postulate," adding additional levels NOT in the Regulations based on personal beliefs...an idea I KNOW YOU HATE!!!

By your definition, working in student councils, church related assistance and or on behalf of any endeavor or organization would disqualify everyone.   Are you suggesting you allow a 12 year old cadet (or any age for that matter) to enter an inner city neighborhood with a pot and a ladle to pass out soup or provide some other such potentially dangerous, yet totally communitarian, activity?...I would say, based on your claims, yes...since doing so with the Salvation Army, Local Mission/Food Bank, Knights of Columbus Squire Circle, Student Council, Scout Troop or any organization where they might get some recognition is somehow abhorrent.

[caphornbuckle]

As usual, people make a mountain out of a mole hill.

The Community Service Ribbon requirements are in plain English and black and white.  "outside of CAP".

Why do others insist on reading into regulations?

Even though it is a well thought award, it is what it is.  A ribbon to recognize community service outside of CAP.  It's not like we are going to start giving away Spaatz Awards to those who earn Eagle.

Is the Community Service Ribbon really that important?  Let's be honest here.  If it was gone tomorrow, would anyone really miss it?

I honestly think that Community Service for all of the Boy Scout ranks would qualify.  Not just for Eagle.

Eagle Award Recipient-1994

[Eclipse]

So it's all community service then? I don't understand how it wouldn't count because it's all community service.

How many awards to we give people for the same service?

On my desk it is one.  On yours, it can be two.

We(CAP) are only giving them one. Double dipping is like planning and executing a conference and getting both an achievement award and comm comm.

Which is 100% inappropriate.

[Eclipse]

Then you are in violation of the "cite please postulate," adding additional levels NOT in the Regulations based on personal beliefs...an idea I KNOW YOU HATE!!!

By your definition, working in student councils, church related assistance and or on behalf of any endeavor or organization would disqualify everyone.   Are you suggesting you allow a 12 year old cadet (or any age for that matter) to enter an inner city neighborhood with a pot and a ladle to pass out soup or provide some other such potentially dangerous, yet totally communitarian, activity?...I would say, based on your claims, yes...since doing so with the Salvation Army, Local Mission/Food Bank, Knights of Columbus Squire Circle, Student Council, Scout Troop or any organization where they might get some recognition is somehow abhorrent.

Yeah, OK.

This is a 100% subjective award based on the acceptance and approval of the commander. 

Sign the ones you feel are appropriate.

The only way to fix this would be a national review board where a cadet would submit the service and it is either approved or not, otherwise,
it will always be different whereever you go.

[SARDOC]

So it's all community service then? I don't understand how it wouldn't count because it's all community service.

How many awards to we give people for the same service?

On my desk it is one.  On yours, it can be two.

We(CAP) are only giving them one. Double dipping is like planning and executing a conference and getting both an achievement award and comm comm.

Which is 100% inappropriate.

That was his point...CAP won't give two awards for the same action...but the fact that someone volunteers outside of Civil Air Patrol should be recognized and encouraged by us as a benevolent organization regardless of the fact that someone else also applauds that behavior.