Khaki Shorts Blue Golf Shirt Combo

[ELTHunter]

Last year at a SARX I saw several aircrew members wearing khaki shorts with the blue golf shirt.  When I questioned this, I was told it had been authorized for Orientation Flights by Policy Letter.  However, when I looked I could't find anything in writing about it.

Does anyone know if this is legal?

[Eclipse]

It's not.

NESA wears something like that for aircrew training, as do a few of the glider schools, but you're never going to see shorts approved for mission work.  Amusingly, even if this was approved for O-Rides, it would still not be for missions, and shows the "give an inch, take a yard" attitude of many of our members.

A "policy letter" would not be enough, it would have to be a nationally approved and published supplement to 39-1, and possibly 60-1.

[Al Sayre]

Yes, it's legal, I have copies of emails from both SER/CC and CAP/CC authorizing it.  PM me with your email and I'll forward it to you with headers.

From: Col James M Rushing
Sent: Tuesday, June 30, 2009 8:10 PM
Cc: Maj Gen Amy Courter
Subject:ALTERNATE OPTIONAL SUMMER FLYING UNIFORM

                Based on the success of Col Tim Carroll in obtaining a waiver from Gen Courter for an alternate summer flying uniform consisting of the CAP polo shirt, khaki or tan shorts, CAP cap or wing specific cap, white socks and running shoes, I have requested and been granted a waiver for that optional alternate summer flying uniform to apply to all six wings in Southeast Region and for region staff during the hot summer months.  This will apply only to activities that occur within the borders of Southeast Region.  It will not apply if you are flying outside of the region or to participate in an activity in another region.  This uniform only applies to flight activities and is not authorized for ground team activities or mission staff personnel.

James M. Rushing, Colonel, CAP
Commander, Southeast Region

[Eclipse]

That's not how it works.

So we don't publish supplements anymore, we just /cc the National Commander and that's enough?

Does anyone pay attention to the regs anymore?

[Al Sayre]

Got me, have to ask her.  There are several more emails that I won't post here, but it wasn't just a matter of CCing her on the email.

[NIN]

That's not how it works.

So we don't publish supplements anymore, we just /cc the National Commander and that's enough?

Does anyone pay attention to the regs anymore?

Me thinks that the whole thing got slightly more attention than just a CC.

You ever been under the "greenhouse" in a 172 in Florida in the summer?  Ugh.   Shorts are a definite improvement. 

[Nathan]

That's not how it works.

So we don't publish supplements anymore, we just /cc the National Commander and that's enough?

Does anyone pay attention to the regs anymore?

Interestingly enough, the regs say nothing about a member having to validate the orders of a region commander every time he tells us something has been authorized by the National Commander.

In fact, I recall a name for this sort of information flow. Vine of Authority? Links of Jurisdiction? Dashed-line of Superiority?

Something like that.

[Al Sayre]

Be aware that some Wing Commanders are not on board with this and have not approved it for their personnel.  You should check with your Ops Officer first.

[davidsinn]

That's not how it works.

So we don't publish supplements anymore, we just /cc the National Commander and that's enough?

Does anyone pay attention to the regs anymore?

Interestingly enough, the regs say nothing about a member having to validate the orders of a region commander every time he tells us something has been authorized by the National Commander.

In fact, I recall a name for this sort of information flow. Vine of Authority? Links of Jurisdiction? Dashed-line of Superiority?

Something like that.

It must still follow the regs though. That email doesn't appear to.

[Al Sayre]

Note that this only applies to SER, and nobody is saying you have to wear it.

[Nathan]

That's not how it works.

So we don't publish supplements anymore, we just /cc the National Commander and that's enough?

Does anyone pay attention to the regs anymore?

Interestingly enough, the regs say nothing about a member having to validate the orders of a region commander every time he tells us something has been authorized by the National Commander.

In fact, I recall a name for this sort of information flow. Vine of Authority? Links of Jurisdiction? Dashed-line of Superiority?

Something like that.

It must still follow the regs though. That email doesn't appear to.

Not entirely sure why the general membership always feels the need to assume their leaders are guilty of breaking regulations until proven innocent.

[Eclipse]

Interestingly enough, the regs say nothing about a member having to validate the orders of a region commander every time he tells us something has been authorized by the National Commander.

In fact, I recall a name for this sort of information flow. Vine of Authority? Links of Jurisdiction? Dashed-line of Superiority?

Something like that.

No, what you're reaching for is "I was just following orders."  And you know very well it doesn't work like that for us or the military.

We have very specific rules about who can change what lower than national, and the regs, despite their circular-conflicts and
vagaries, are specific about that as well.

Members are responsible for understanding this, or at a minimum, protecting themselves when something doesn't sound right.

Not entirely sure why the general membership always feels the need to assume their leaders are guilty of breaking regulations until proven innocent.

Because the line is bright on this stuff, yet we have a history of making things up to suit whims without doing the proper paperwork, which puts our membership at risk.

Directives which exceed authority are not valid just because they come from higher HQ.

[indygreg]

It may not be approved, but I wish it was. Especially as hot as it's been around here  the past few weeks.

[Short Field]

Directives which exceed authority are not valid just because they come from higher HQ.

Yes, it's legal, I have copies of emails from both SER/CC and CAP/CC authorizing it.  PM me with your email and I'll forward it to you with headers.

So if the CAP/CC can't authorize a waiver - who can?  And if she has the authority, then she does not have to get anyone else to coordinate or approve her action. 

No, what you're reaching for is "I was just following orders."  And you know very well it doesn't work like that for us or the military.

I think we can dismiss the investigators and tell the firing squad to go home.  This is just a uniform wavier from the National Commander.  According to your logic, unless we can personally verify every order, directive, etc, we need to ignore it.

[Nathan]

Interestingly enough, the regs say nothing about a member having to validate the orders of a region commander every time he tells us something has been authorized by the National Commander.

In fact, I recall a name for this sort of information flow. Vine of Authority? Links of Jurisdiction? Dashed-line of Superiority?

Something like that.

No, what you're reaching for is "I was just following orders."  And you know very well it doesn't work like that for us or the military.

We have very specific rules about who can change what lower than national, and the regs, despite their circular-conflicts and
vagaries, are specific about that as well.

Members are responsible for understanding this, or at a minimum, protecting themselves when something doesn't sound right.

Eclipse, your tendency to think in purely all-or-nothing standards sometimes leaves me confused. Exactly WHAT are we protecting ourselves from by obeying without direct verification a waiver passed down by the CAP CC that in no way jeopardizes the safety or moral standards of the members? How is choosing to believe that an email from a region commander confirming the waiver of a certain standard by the national commander in any way threatening to the organization or the members?

There ARE definitely times where saying, "I'm just following orders" is perfectly acceptable. One of those times is when a trivial, non-threatening, non-problematic uniform modification is expressly waivered by a region commander on behalf of the national commander for a single activity. I don't think it's the national commander's job to provide every detail of how such an authorization was processed just so you can be satisfied that nobody is secretly plotting on getting you in trouble by calling you out on a uniform infraction.

Because the line is bright on this stuff, yet we have a history of making things up to suit whims without doing the proper paperwork, which puts our membership at risk.

Directives which exceed authority are not valid just because they come from higher HQ.

So... when were you appointed "NHQ Babysitter"?

Seriously, it's not your job to keep an eye on the higher-ups and make sure they're doing their jobs right. There are people who DO have those jobs. Your job is, I'm assuming, as a commander of some sort (last time I remember hearing about it). That means your jobs is to watch your own people.

If you feel that this waiver in some way leaves vulnerable the people under your command to physical or psychological harm, then you can simply instruct them not to follow the orders until you feel the situation is safer, and take the issue up the chain of command as quickly as possible. If you're right, then you will be fine (legally, at least; I can't speak for the social experience of trying to call out the national commander on such a trivial issue...).

But until it's your job to validate the legality and authority of every single order that comes from the region commander, I would think that you should probably just salute-and-execute until those orders in some way significantly threaten you or the people you command. I can't think of how you come off thinking you have the authority to simply ignore whatever a region commander tells you to do until you personally validate that every step in giving the order was per regulation. Unless you've gotten a pretty impressive promotion that has escaped my notice, no region commander reports to YOU.

[FW]

If my memory is still (somewhat) intact, this uniform combo is accepted for glider/tow pilot crew nationwide.  The CAP/CC has the authority to grant a waiver; extending the use of the uniform for all SER flight ops.  This isn't rocket science..... there is no need to change 39-1, 60-1 or, any other publication.  The waiver though, should be in writing, signed by the national commander and, published for all concerned.  That's how things are (should be) done.

[Nathan]

If my memory is still (somewhat) intact, this uniform combo is accepted for glider/tow pilot crew nationwide.  The CAP/CC has the authority to grant a waiver; extending the use of the uniform for all SER flight ops.  This isn't rocket science..... there is no need to change 39-1, 60-1 or, any other publication.  The waiver though, should be in writing, signed by the national commander and, published for all concerned.  That's how things are (should be) done.

Then the correct course of action should not be to simply ignore the waiver until proof is presented. It would be for commanders to "salute and execute", while asking for clarification and confirmation from their own commanders. I'll agree that it's not irrational to expect some sort of written directive allowing this. However, many members seem to just ignore anything that doesn't seem legal to them. That's not the way it works.

Cadet program leaders should know this better than anyone, since it's a pretty big lesson in followership. Unless you're given an order that can possibly jeopardize the safety or moral standards of your people, you salute and execute, and then try to get the order clarified at the earliest possible moment. When the order comes from a region commander under the authority of the national commander, this seems especially prudent. We have NO reason to assume there is anything fishy about this waiver except that we just haven't seen everything that went into the process. So, if commanders have a problem with it, then inquire up the chain of command and get your confirmation, one way or the other.

But until then, nobody has the right to simply ignore an order just because they feel it's their responsibility to make sure that NHQ is doing its job right. The chain of command exists for a reason, and the way it works doesn't fluctuate depending on how knowledgeable the member feels he/she is about how rules and regulations work.

[Eclipse]

If my memory is still (somewhat) intact, this uniform combo is accepted for glider/tow pilot crew nationwide.  The CAP/CC has the authority to grant a waiver; extending the use of the uniform for all SER flight ops.  This isn't rocket science..... there is no need to change 39-1, 60-1 or, any other publication.  The waiver though, should be in writing, signed by the national commander and, published for all concerned.  That's how things are (should be) done.

Then the correct course of action should not be to simply ignore the waiver until proof is presented. It would be for commanders to "salute and execute", while asking for clarification and confirmation from their own commanders. I'll agree that it's not irrational to expect some sort of written directive allowing this. However, many members seem to just ignore anything that doesn't seem legal to them. That's not the way it works.

Actually, that's exactly the way it works.

Please indicate where your line of "trivial" ends and "important" begins.  Mine is certainly somewhere around the place where we are encouraging our members to fly missions out of uniform.

Whether or not the National Commander has the authority to grant such a waiver is fodder for another thread, but what we have here is the interpretation of an email, and as Al indicates, not all of the subordinate commanders agree with it.

A commander's job is to interpret directives, and insure they are "legal", including occasionally the potential to suggest the correction of a misinterpretation.

[Nathan]

Whether or not the National Commander has the authority to grant such a waiver is fodder for another thread, but what we have here is the interpretation of an email, and as Al indicates, not all of the subordinate commanders agree with it.

Eh, I don't think it's as simple as just an "interpretation." We've had numerous discussions where even clarifying how something should be "interpreted" isn't enough. Ie, the first sergeant's diamond was to be "interpreted" as being authorized by CAPR 52-16, as clarified by the Knowledgebase (set up specifically to clarify interpretations), but even with this interpretation, many members will not be satisfied until THEIR interpretation of how things work is satisfied.

I'm not sure how the email can be interpreted except that this authorization happened, and that Courter has taken care of the legal issues surrounding it. If you doubt the authenticity of the email, you can email the Region Commander. If you doubt that MG Courter has level of insight into Civil Air Patrol regulations that you do, and believe that she has overlooked the obvious legal ramifications of members flying out of uniform, then you should most certain perform your duty of informing the CAP CC of the damage she may be causing to the general membership and organization as a whole by foolishly sending out emails that may fool people into putting themselves in a legally vulnerable situation.

Until either of those actions is undertaken, though, you don't really have much room to argue.

[Eclipse]

Until either of those actions is undertaken, though, you don't really have much room to argue.

Ah, ok.  So now unless something directly effects us personally, we're no longer allowed to discuss it academically?

That's going to take a big chunk out of the internet, but I'll let them know of your decision and start shutting things down.

Zuckerberg may be calling you, just an FYI...