Will CAP ever give GSAR serious attention?

[RiverAux]

Well, I agree that we don't have a ground based disaster response program, but we're talking about GSAR here.

[lordmonar]

Has anyone actually compared NASAR SARTECH ratings with our GTM 3-1 rating?

From what little I can see from their web site....and not wanting to spend $50+ for their training materials....I think that we are pretty close to being there.

NASAR is a creditialing agency.  They just produce a standard, have some tests and hold courses.

Just like CAP crediantials they only mean as much as an agency will accept.

Anyone who is in the teaching biz can tell you national creditials don't mean a thing if the local school district does not accept them.

Should CAP just adopt NASAR creditials as our own?  Sure.....why not?  Except for the cost.  NASAR wants you to pay $70 just to take their SARTECH III test.  All the other levels require attendance to their courses.

Sure we can get CAP guys to be instructors so we can hold course when we want to...but they are still going to want $70 for each test.

So to get some people trained to SARTECH I is at least $210  not counting book and CAP people providing the training for free.

Ground team leaders is another $70.

Everytime we talk about making changes that involve money.......we are setting ourselves up for failure.

The question is not about crediantials....so much as two points  1) is our training covering providing the right skill sets our customers want? 2) is our training being audited, standardised and controlled in a way that establishes a an accrediation that our customers expect.

For qeustion 1 I think CAP is on target or very close.....we could use more DR or maybe another specialty (I discussesed this before in another thread)

On question 2 is where I think we are failing.  NESA, HMRS, are pretty good.  But out in the field there is almost no Quality Control.

I would like to see NESA change from an primary instruction facilty to a "top gun"/Stand Eval/Instructor school.  A place where GTLs and GTM1s can go to put some polish on their skills, really work with some of the tasks that they can only read about at their local units (working with canines, helo operations, etc) and a very big helping of how to put on a training course, and how to evaluate and instruct.  NESA should be producing instructors who will teach the rest of us.

[heliodoc]

Sure it costs some dough for the NASAR for its tests and books

Probably not much than spending all that dough on new equipment advertised here at CAPTalk

Agreed on the credentialing.  CAP's credentialing may appear "free" but if one is traveling to NESA or others  whats that 150.00 for the course?

Another 100.00 to 300.00 or more ,depending on mode of travel.

Just like college or getting the different flying ratings....it costs something

When everyone in the SAR and EM world ID's CAP as the "Gold Standard of SAR Training"    then that word free training will definitely something to crow about.  But until then, spending money on gear and encampments is no cheaper than a $70 test!!

[lordmonar]

Yes...but one does not HAVE to go to NESA to get GTM1 qualified.

Requiring NASAR credentials would ADD costs on top off the costs we already have to train and maintain ground teams.

Unless our customers start demanding that we have them I would not push it beyond encouragement.

I would think that maybe we give GTM credit for SARTECH ratings....maybe advance promotions to attract SARTECH rated people.

As I said I am not against NASAR...but we do have to figure the costs of adopting their credentials.

[heliodoc]

MAYBE NASAR and CAP could get together, iron all the details out, sign an MOA / MOU with National providing the lawyers do not get wrapped around another axle for them to ball up what could be an excellent relationship.

I am sure this has been talked about before....maybe not.

Just think of allll the possibilities..... inter organizational goodwill and education, credentialing at a (possible) reduced price if CAP would return some flyin favors for their missions. 

Costs?  Sure there are.  Whether or not FEMA ever establishes standards in the futurebased on threads here before, you don't think that might cost something?

I guess I'd be barkin up the wrong tree...'cuz CAP would now be entering what would be known as First Responder or least getting the framework for that purpose

Or CAP could stay the same.......it's same 'ol 68 yrs old self WISHING and BEGGING for more missions 'cuz we are FREEEEEEE!

These online tests and CAP online format...what is that costing the organization per year on  "R&D" and delivery?  Huh?

Probably no good answers to solve all the CAP worlds problems

[RiverAux]

There have been quite a few discussions here about comparisons between CAP and NASAR ratings. 

[sardak]

^^^Like this one? Training to NASAR Standards http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=9737.0

MAYBE NASAR and CAP could get together, iron all the details out, sign an MOA / MOU with National providing the lawyers do not get wrapped around another axle for them to ball up what could be an excellent relationship.

I am sure this has been talked about before....maybe not.

NASAR and CAP signed an agreement in 2003.
Civil Air Patrol and NASAR Inc. agree to develop and implement plans for cooperation between NASAR and CAP in the promotion of education and training of emergency services personnel – specifically professional level search and rescue specialists.

Then a list of eight warm and fuzzy things the two organizations could do for each other.

To facilitate the implementation of this agreement, NASAR and CAP commit to the formation of a joint working group appointed by the NASAR Executive Director and CAP Executive Director. The working group will meet as needed but not less than annually. The working group is tasked with the responsibility of program development, review, evaluation and modification, as appropriate to achieve mutual goals.

This agreement becomes effective on the date of the last signature below and continues for 5 years. At the end of 5 years the parties will consider the development of a new agreement.

What do you suppose was considered at the end of five years, which was May, 2008?

Mike

[RiverAux]

Mike, thanks for another example of CAP NHQ not taking GSAR seriously.  I certainly am not aware of anything coming of the first agreement though I suppose we can't automatically assume that the lack of any results is CAP's fault. 

[heliodoc]

Thanks sardak

More warm and fuzziness on how CAP could benefit NASAR and noth the other way around.......

Is there still a working group in CAP   I am sure there is at NASAR, but I would bet CAP left a bad taste in NASAR's mouth or FAILED to attend the working group meetings...is that not in the realm of reality??

I came back to CAP in 2005 and was not aware of the "MOU" of 2003

But apparently, for lack of better terms, CAP terms or CAP NHQ terms, the standard LACK of attention to detail and a CAP centric belief STILL prevails after all those "meetings and glad handing" that CAP is well known for and then CAP wondering WHHHHY we do not get called.

Its called COMMUNICATIONS between agencies...a new found skill CAP, in all aspects, needs a good solid education or a good swift kickin in the 4th point of contact.

CAP could show MORE goodwill than it claims to have done in the WHOLE emergency management field.  I probably have made more contact with EM's this week than most CAP Wing do in a lifetime....

[billford1]

Of all the reasons CAP's GSAR capabilities are underutilized, vehicles are probably about the least important.  You can drive WAY into the depths of some of the most isolated parts of the US in our vans.  Can you get everywhere?  Of course not, but I'd say that we can probably get to almost anywhere a GSAR command post is likely to be set up anywhere in the US in dry weather. 

My WAG on this would be that a very, very, tiny percentage of GSAR cases require any 4WD. 

So, getting new vehicles for GSAR is not on my list of national level priorities. 

Besides, I'd be willing to wager that if there are parts of the country where 4WD is absolutely essential, CAP members are likely to own them as POVs and could use their vehicles if absolutely necessary for a mission in that situation.

When your vans get pulled to support RSC instead of GSAR training it is a problem.

How about when all the wing vans get pulled to support national and regional activities for most of the summer?

How about when your on a mission and you have to call a tow truck because you're stuck in the mud or snow? When there has been flooding or a lot of snow you have to be more aware of what roads are passable. With a 6 passenger 4WD Ford pickup or even an AWD Minivan there's an advantage. Many people I know won't use their truck or SUV on a mission.

[sardak]

Maybe people do pay attention to issues highlighted on CAP Talk.

At last week's State SAR Coordinators Council meeting held in conjunction with the NASAR annual conference, the president of NASAR, Dan Hourihan, met with John Desmarais of CAP NHQ. The CAP/NASAR agreement will be renewed. Both sides agreed that nothing ever came of the original agreement because neither organization pursued it. The leadership and corporate philosophy of both organizations is different now than in 2003, so it's expected (hoped?) that there will be tangible results from the new agreement. The NASAR Board of Directors agreed to go forward with a new agreement. Now we wait for CAP.

There is also work in progress to develop a "crosswalk" from CAP GTM ratings to NASAR SARTECH ratings. This doesn't mean CAP ground team members will just get SARTECH certification. The certification tests will still have to be taken and passed, and won't be free. What this means is that gaps in CAP ground training will be filled to match SARTECH training. Expect to see new tasks.

Mike

[heliodoc]

Thanks for the update, Mike!

The wait from CAP will be the wait.  At least NASAR BoD has the moxie to g'ahead with a new agreement.

While the NASAR SARTECH ratings won't be free...at least it will be an option for those in CAP that want a little more than CAP creds to work with....never know when a NASAR cred will be looked at or into in the future......

Gotta give a large Bravo Zulu to Messrs Hourihan and Desmarais for meeting on getting agreements renewed!

[Smithsonia]

To follow up for this discussion here is the syllabus for the SARTECH II rating. As a CAP GTL, I don't know much about Handling Evidence and I am rusty on knots and ropes... but the rest is pretty straightforward. That said all training is good. Anything to help CAP, Local SAR, and our fellow man is worth the trouble:

SARTECH II Examination
The SARTECH II level of certification is the intermediate level for SAR personnel. This level is recommended for any person who functions on SAR missions as field searchers.  Persons who obtain this certification are to function within the limits of the certification described on our website at this link http://www.nasar.org/nasar/education.php?id=9.  In addition to the information provided on the website, the NASAR course that prepares one to challenge the SARTECH II is Fundamentals of Search and Rescue.  The newest edition of the Fundamentals of Search and Rescue textbook was released in 2005.  Previous editions of the textbook will not prepare one to challenge the SARTECH II certification.
There are no prerequisites required for a person to challenge the SARTECH II examination.  Certification history does indicate persons who have had formal SAR training and experience on SAR missions successfully pass the examinations more frequently than others do.

The SARTECH II examination consists of written exam and a practical exam.  The written exam includes one hundred and forty-five (145) questions covering the candidate's knowledge of search and rescue.  A passing grade is 70 or above.  Successfully passing the SARTECH II written test assures the candidate to be certified at the SARTECH III level whether the practical exam is passed or not.

Upon passing the written exam, the candidate is then required to successfully complete a six station practical exam.  Should the candidate not successfully complete all of the practical exam stations, only the stations that are failed need be repeated if this is done within one year of the original testing date.  Up to two failed stations may be repeated on the day of the original exam.  If necessary, the re-testing may be completed at any subsequent SARTECH II evaluation.  If the retesting is done within the one year of the original testing date, no additional payment to NASAR is required. However, a host organization may charge a reasonable fee to cover the costs of hosting the repeat examination.

The written exam includes questions from the following topics:

    * NIMS Incident Command System
    * Basic Survival
    * SAR Clothing
    * Improvising
    * Environmental Hazards and First Aid
    * SAR Ready Pack
    * Personal Equipment
    * Travel Skills
    * Land Navigation & Orienteering
    * SAR Resources
    * Search Philosophy
    * Search Tactics
    * Handling Evidence
    * Clue Consciousness
    * Search Operations
    * Tracking
    * Ropes & Rescue Equipment
    * Legal Aspects for the Searcher

The candidate's performance of SAR skills is evaluated at six practical exam stations involving:

    * Station #1: Land Navigation: Use of topographic maps and compass.  Candidates complete a course over terrain commonly encountered in the operations area in a specified time frame, not to exceed 600 meters.
    * Station #2: Tracking: Candidates identify and mark a footprint track left by the evaluator and follow the track to its end.
    * Station #3: 24-hour Pack: Candidates demonstrate the ability to possess and pack the required SAR equipment and supplies efficiently.
    * Station #4: Rope Skills: Candidates demonstrate the ability to tie four basic knots and a harness with supplied rope and webbing.
    * Station #5: Route Search: This station entails locating and labeling clues in a given area demonstrating the ability to detect 50% of the clues using a route search tactic.
    * Station #6: Area Search: This station entails locating and labeling clues in a given area demonstrating the ability to detect 50% of the clues using an area search tactic.

Certification Levels SARTECH III through SARTECH I/CREWLEADER are a series of written and practical examinations that test the levels of knowledge and practical skills of SAR personnel.  These examinations are based on the NASAR Certification Criteria for SARTECH.  The SARTECH Certification Criteria were formulated by the National Association for Search and Rescue (NASAR) and recognized by many states and agencies.  They have also been submitted for review to the American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) and National Fire Protection Association for their consideration in their standards development.

The SARTECH program is an evaluation process not a learning process.  Candidates demonstrate basic SAR competency through written tests and practical skill demonstrations of search and rescue skills.  Upon successful completion of the requirements, a certificate will be issued to the person by NASAR.  This certificate does not constitute a license to practice the skills taught in a training program or to practice the knowledge and performance skills that have been evaluated.  The certificate does signify that the person holding the certificate has met the requirements of established certification criteria and/or performance skill on the date indicated on the certificate.

NASAR has developed three courses using the NASAR Certification Criteria for SARTECH.  These courses are Introduction to Search and Rescue, Fundamentals of Search and Rescue and Advanced Search and Rescue.  These courses are designed to teach the student the knowledge and skills necessary to pass the level of SARTECH certification that correspond to the course.  Completion of these or any other NASAR sponsored courses are not required for the candidate to challenge any certification examination. The candidates training may come from any available source the candidate chooses.  Candidates who successfully complete the evaluation process will receive a certificate and patch from NASAR signifying their certification level.  NASAR does not require a particular re-certification time period but leaves the decision to the organizations and agencies that utilize the SARTECH personnel.

Please click on the word EDUCATION on the home page for a list of Frequently Asked Questions which include the SARTECH II Certification Criteria and the Ready Pack List.

**The textbook that prepares one to challenge the SARTECH II is the Fundamentals of Search and Rescue.  The newest edition of the Fundamentals of Search and Rescue textbook was released in 2005.  Previous editions of the textbook will not prepare one to challenge the SARTECH II certification.