Earthquake in Haiti

[Smoothice]

Would something like the 7.0 in Hati ever prompt the government to ask for CAP's help in a foriegn country? Especially a poor one with limited resources? Of course, I would think that the National Guard would go first.

Thanks

[C-150]

Might be possible. Doubt it though. Maybe we should establish a strong medical corp. The Maryland State Defense Force Med Corp has been known to deploy. They went to Bosnia a few years ago and I think Central America. Hati would be with a resonse reach of the PR and Fl wings.

[Gunner C]

Honestly, you don't want anything to do with Haiti.  Huge crime, huge disease vectors, no infrastructure.  I'd leave this to the pros.

[Hawk200]

Would something like the 7.0 in Hati ever prompt the government to ask for CAP's help in a foriegn country?

I doubt that CAP will ever be specifically be asked for by a foreign country, we're just not that well known.

Second: I doubt we would have sufficient numbers to go on such a mission.

Third: CAP, of itself, does not have the training or equipment to support it.

Gunner has already stated the best reasons.

[JoeTomasone]

I was going to say much of the same, but then I realized that we could easily do aerial recon.  Haiti is only a few hundred statue miles from Miami; should be feasible to base out of Miami, overfly, and return, no?  Would our fleet have the range?

[JayT]

I was going to say much of the same, but then I realized that we could easily do aerial recon.  Haiti is only a few hundred statue miles from Miami; should be feasible to base out of Miami, overfly, and return, no?  Would our fleet have the range?

For what purpose? I'm sure that the AF has assest capable of much moe detailed recon deployed. Why risk volunteers in a dinky airplane?

[Hawk200]

I was going to say much of the same, but then I realized that we could easily do aerial recon.  Haiti is only a few hundred statue miles from Miami; should be feasible to base out of Miami, overfly, and return, no?  Would our fleet have the range?

For what purpose? I'm sure that the AF has assest capable of much moe detailed recon deployed. Why risk volunteers in a dinky airplane?

I'd have to agree. We don't need to be doing extended overwater flights. Something goes wrong, and the aircraft goes down, we'd probably never find it.

[Al Sayre]

Direct it's about 700 miles from MIA to Port-au-Prince, mostly over water, and would transit Cuban Airspace.  You could probably island hop through the Bahamas, Turks & Caicos etc. 

It's only 90 over water from Mayaguez Puerto Rico to the Dominican Republic, so if anyone was going to do it it would likely be PR Wing.  I'm reasonably sure they would be permitted to overfly the D.R. and/or stop for fuel, but it's still ~ 350 miles to Port-au-Prince total.

[Gunner C]

Still, those folks are going to need all the help they can get.  After two generations of the Duvalier family plus a couple more characters in charge, the entire country is a basket case.  Throw a devistating disaster on top of it and it becomes something of unimaginable magnitudes.

Pray for these folks.

[flyerthom]

CAP medical people alone I doubt it. CAP medical people as NGO or Air Force people as part of Continuing Promise 2010 http://www.southcom.mil/AppsSC/factfiles.php?id=103  why not?

Continuing Promise will most likely have a role in missions for the long term follow up. I wonder if we could be a small part of it?

[RogueLeader]

There are also reports of prisoners escaping from prison, the airport at Port Au Price is open, but most pilots refuse to use it much. . . .   I'm not volunteering to go.

[JoeTomasone]

It's only 90 over water from Mayaguez Puerto Rico to the Dominican Republic, so if anyone was going to do it it would likely be PR Wing.  I'm reasonably sure they would be permitted to overfly the D.R. and/or stop for fuel, but it's still ~ 350 miles to Port-au-Prince total.

Ah, very good point.   :clap:

As to the "why CAP" question -- I don't know; perhaps ARCHER?  Don't mistake me for someone knowledgeable on USAF SAR capabilities.

[bosshawk]

Great sympathetic response to a terrible disaster, but we are not the agency to participate.  Most of the time, we have trouble responding to disasters in our own states, nevermind crossing 700 miles of water in single engine planes.  Gunner C has a very good handle on the place: I wouldn't go within a half continent of Haiti.

[Майор Хаткевич]

Great sympathetic response to a terrible disaster, but we are not the agency to participate.  Most of the time, we have trouble responding to disasters in our own states, nevermind crossing 700 miles of water in single engine planes.  Gunner C has a very good handle on the place: I wouldn't go within a half continent of Haiti.

No vacations to Florida this year then?

[RiverAux]

Would something like the 7.0 in Hati ever prompt the government to ask for CAP's help in a foriegn country? Especially a poor one with limited resources? Of course, I would think that the National Guard would go first.

Thanks

I very much doubt that any foreign government is ever going to ask specifically for CAP, but I don't know of any legal reason that if the AF was involved in the response that they couldn't request CAP support in some form or fashion.  Except for perhaps traditional CAP DR missions just over the border in Canada or Mexico, I'm not quite sure what CAP would be able to bring to the table for overseas missions.  Of course, there is the possibility that the AF could start using CAP members in various individual roles overseas (interpreters, for example).  That is probably more likely where CAP could be used rather than our usual roles.

[Pumbaa]

Haiti had an earthquake... a devastating  one at that. High casualty numbers are expected. So, what happens next? America comes to the rescue, that's what. The American military is involved. The U.S. SOCOM and JFCOM were gearing up for a relief effort within hours after the earthquake.

Why? Well .. because that's just what we do, that's why. We're Americans! 

I'm now on call 24/7 for the team in the JDC.

[Spike]

^ That's what we do right.  I hate to see people suffer, any person, but the Haitians were not very friendly toward Americans for a very long time.  The Government is repressive, criminals routinely pass drugs through that island to the US and last time I looked it was on the State Departments list of "don't travel to" listing.

I fear that the food we deliver and tax dollars we give (USAID) will only benefit the corrupt drug lords and the criminal Government there. 

Unless we send combat forces in (AGAIN) to distribute resources I doubt assistance will go to who needs it.

[Spaceman3750]

Just heard on the TV that a large USAR team out of California and their dogs are gearing up to head over.

[Spike]

AD Navy and Army are deploying.  Seems like we can better respond to a disaster in Haiti than we could in the Gulf States back in 2005. 

[SarMaster]

Just think of how much good our Cadets and Rangers will do in Haiti!  We should load up our Cessnas and take everyone who has a 101 card.   Dont forget to bring the walkers for the old seniors too.    ARCHER too....We can take black and white pics with fake colors overlayed to show NOTHING!!!

We can all walk door to door and self deploy...Like Katrina... Yes we will do a lot of good.

[Flying Pig]

Yeah and the ones who are to slow will become human sacrifices to the voodoo gods.  I've never been to Haiti, but I know several missionaries who still have nightmares about their time there.  One who spent a lot of time there says if there ever was a hell on earth, its Haiti.  And thats on a good day.

[SergeantElbow]

My family works with Missionary Flights International in Fort Pierce, and MFI flies regularly to Haiti.  My dad is currently sitting on a plane in Port-au-Prince waiting for someone to pick up the supplies on the plane.  You can read updates from Haiti at Missionary Flight's website here: http://www.missionaryflights.org.   I am updating the website as needed while my dad is in Haiti.

[Flying Pig]

Very cool.  Thanks.  I looked into being a missionary pilot some time ago  but you also had to be an A&P.

[Short Field]

Honestly, you don't want anything to do with Haiti.  Huge crime, huge disease vectors, no infrastructure. 

Your comments are way way too kind.   Seriously.

[wuzafuzz]

Yeah and the ones who are to slow will become human sacrifices to the voodoo gods.  I've never been to Haiti, but I know several missionaries who still have nightmares about their time there.  One who spent a lot of time there says if there ever was a hell on earth, its Haiti.  And thats on a good day.

Makes one wonder if rescue/relief organizations, military aside, deploy with security of any kind.  Guessing it's not a simple thing to roll into a foreign country with meaningful protection.

[Krapenhoeffer]

And once more, they've decided to send 2000 United States Marines to this disaster. THEY'RE SENDING AD MARINES. Do you think that any sane (wo)man who isn't armed would want to go there. I rest my case.

This isn't the place for CAP. This is the place for the US Army Corps of Engineers, the SeaBees and the Marines.

[Al Sayre]

The U.S. Marines have a history with Haiti, having been sent in several times starting in 1915 when they occupied the country until 1934 (probably one of the main reasons they don't like us a lot down there). 

The UN has been there since the last Civil War/Coup d' Etat, with the French Foreign Legion providing most of the Support/Security forces.

[JoeTomasone]

And once more, they've decided to send 2000 United States Marines to this disaster. THEY'RE SENDING AD MARINES. Do you think that any sane (wo)man who isn't armed would want to go there. I rest my case.

This isn't the place for CAP. This is the place for the US Army Corps of Engineers, the SeaBees and the Marines.

According to CNN: "Estimated 40,000-45,000 Americans live in Haiti."

[Al Sayre]

^^ but what they don't say is that probably 30K of those are children of Haitian citizens who happened to be born in the US.

[SarMaster]

Now the Massive Repatriation effort begins... All 45,000 of those americans will be rought into Tampa to Macdill AFB to be processed back into the US....  Thats going to be fun. 

[1LtNurseOfficer]

There are several ways you can help. 
1) If you have your heart set on going, 'enlist' with the ARC/IRC. 
2) If you feel you must contribute in some way, make monetary donations to ARC/IRC or some other mission/relief organization.
3) Pray without ceasing to your [insert deity name here] for the health and safety of those who ARE already suffering as well as those who will be putting themselves in harms way (voluntary or otherwise) to help those already suffering.
4) Pray that many survivers are found.  Pray that injuries aren't life threatening.
5) I could go on ad nauseum, but I think you get the drift.

[oak2007]

]If you want to help, donate a $1.00 via Pay pal

[SergeantElbow]

If you really want to help the relief effort, you can donate to Missionary Flights International in Fort Pierce.  They are partnering with Samaritan's Purse to fly down thousands of pounds of relief supplies and aid workers RIGHT NOW.  They were there the day after the earthquake with relief supplies.  You can donate to their effort here: http://www.missionaryflights.org/donate-now
You also read field reports from missions in Haiti and view the progress of relief flights here: http://www.missionaryflights.org/field-reports/up-to-the-minute
Your donation right now can make a difference in the lives of the people of Haiti.

[JayT]

The ARC isn't accepting volunteers when I last called.

[PA Guy]

The trick to being involved in disaster work is to be a member of a response organization well in advance of an event.  Walk on volunteers are usually turned down.

Many organizations are constantly looking for volunteers i.e. DMATs, ARC, MRC, Salvation Army etc.  But you need to be a member prior to an event.  That gives them time to vet, train and credential the volunteer.

[c172drv]

I think that the only thing we could seriously do would be the Archer and maybe comms.  In reality the Archer would be the only practical item since we could get it down to PR and fly it on missions over there.  Problem would be getting fuel in Hati and where do you send the data to help them since the infrastructure is trashed.  I'd have to agree that this one belongs with the big boys with expensive toys.

John

[RADIOMAN015]

Many organizations are constantly looking for volunteers i.e. DMATs, ARC, MRC, Salvation Army etc.  But you need to be a member prior to an event.  That gives them time to vet, train and credential the volunteer.

Best bet is to join a federal DMAT.  You will get paid as a temporary government employee.  Apparently the team from Mass General Hospital (International Surgical Support Team), was deployed there.
This is going to be a VERY difficult response for whomever goes there.
BTW CAP definitely would not be a player in an international disaster.
RM

[sardak]

Charley Shimanski, president of the Mountain Rescue Association (MRA) is a Regional CEO for the American Red Cross. Here is an excerpt from an email he sent to the MRA:

Some of you have emailed or called me wondering how one can get deployed to Haiti and join this relief effort.  I want to thank each of you for your heartfelt desire to assist in ways more meaningful than a simple cash contribution.  That says a lot about the spirit of the Mountain Rescue Association [Ed. - or Civil Air Patrol].  When someone needs our help, we desperately want to be there.  Thank you for keeping this spirit alive.

That said, the American Red Cross is currently not engaging volunteers that have not already received our specialized training in operating in major disasters.  As we've learned through our experience with Hurricane Katrina, the needs of untrained "spontaneous" volunteers can often be overwhelming, and can redirect essential relief workers to "taking care of our own."  Please understand that when the media talks about "volunteers" in Haiti, they are generally referring to volunteers with many hours of training in dealing with devastating disasters like this tragedy.

Google is also working with its satellite imagery partners to get updated imagery of Haiti to overlay in Google Earth. The latest posted on the Google website is from Wednesday, January 13. The overlays can be turned on and off to see the differences from before and after the quake. These overlays and other Haiti related files are available here: http://www.google.com/gadgets/directory?synd=earth&hl=en&gl=&preview=on&q=Haiti

The coordinates of the National or Presidential Palace are (formatted to copy and paste directly into GE): 18 32 35.2, -72 20 19.9
Going north from the Palace the damage is apparent. About 0.4 miles north of the Palace is the Port-au-Prince Cathedral, or Cathedral of Our Lady of the Assumption. It's remains are reminiscent of the aerial photos of bombed out cities from WWII. Coordinates: 18 32 56.6, -72 20 19

Mike

[JoeTomasone]

Apparently ham radio operators are being prepared to head over there.  I got an email today looking for hams with valid passports to make their availability known.

[Flying Pig]

I think "to make their availability known." is the key.  In other words, "Can we go too?"

I am still having trouble trying to figure out why anyone would want to go as a CAP member.  As a CAP member, my mission is to serve the US.  Ill volunteer for just about anything for the US.  I AINT volunteering to go to Haiti.

[JoeTomasone]

I think "to make their availability known." is the key.  In other words, "Can we go too?"

Actually, in this context, it is a specific query meaning that you have been ASKED to go by competent authority and intended to ascertain your status and willingness to go.   There's no "wanna go-ism" here.

If a disaster struck in the US and your unit commander asked about your availability, would you conclude that the request originated from higher HQ or that the Commander wants to "go too"??

[SarMaster]

Ham Radio Operators are desperatly needed.  There are only a few on the island.  We were talking to a priest of a missionary group in Port-O-Prince yesterday... He was one of only 3 licensed hams that live there.... They were in desperate need of generator / batteries to keep on the air.   The Dominican Republic if bringing in a 1.5kw HF station with generator tomorrow to support the comm effort.  They need help.   

[flyguy06]

Honestly, you don't want anything to do with Haiti.  Huge crime, huge disease vectors, no infrastructure. 

Your comments are way way too kind.   Seriously.

I would help out.

[RADIOMAN015]

Just think of how much good our Cadets and Rangers will do in Haiti!  We should load up our Cessnas and take everyone who has a 101 card.   Dont forget to bring the walkers for the old seniors too.   

Most agree that deployment to any foreign county, especially Haiti isn't in CAP's mission capabilities.

HOWEVER, your comment about older senior and walkers is a bit insensitive .  We have people in our wing/my unit that have some physical challenges, BUT they can be effectively utilized at mission bases for functions such as radio communications &  various operational support administrative duties.  They are dedicated members who deserve our support!
RM 

[RiverAux]

As a CAP member, my mission is to serve the US.  Ill volunteer for just about anything for the US.  I AINT volunteering to go to Haiti.

Ah, but you forget that this is one of the official purposes of the organization:

   
• [font=&quot]To assist the Department of the Air Force infulfilling its noncombat programs and missions. [/font][/l][/l]

So, if it is an AF non-combat mission, and the AF would like our help, it is one our missions no matter where it is.  Obviously you're not obligated to volunteer to do anything and you might not have joined CAP to do such things, which is fine, but it is something that the AF COULD (but almost assuredly won't) use CAP for. 

[/list]

[Flying Pig]

Dude, your trying on this one aren't you.  OK, keep thinking flying disaster relief in Haiti is one of CAPs missions.  Just like we could deploy to Afganistan to do CD right?  I bet someone already has the Haiti Service Medal already drawn up. 

[RiverAux]

The AF can use CAP for almost everything, which is a FACT. 

It is my opinion that it is unlikely that they will do so in this case in particular since the internal infrastructure necessary to use CAP members in such overseas roles just doesn't exist even if there were individual CAP members with skills the AF would like to use. 

[Hawk200]

As a CAP member, my mission is to serve the US.  Ill volunteer for just about anything for the US.  I AINT volunteering to go to Haiti.

Ah, but you forget that this is one of the official purposes of the organization:

   
• To assist the Department of the Air Force infulfilling its noncombat programs and missions.

So, if it is an AF non-combat mission, and the AF would like our help, it is one our missions no matter where it is.  Obviously you're not obligated to volunteer to do anything and you might not have joined CAP to do such things, which is fine, but it is something that the AF COULD (but almost assuredly won't) use CAP for. 

I seriously doubt this qualifies. In general, the Air Force does disaster relief missions quite a bit differently than what people think, and at times isn't even present. The Northridge quake of '94 comes to mind. There was some Air Guard there (as Governor callup), but this isn't a typical mission for the active duty component.

Second, CAP does noncombat missions in CONUS, not worldwide. A military member can be moved overseas rather easily. A CAP member is a civilian, regardless of their uniform, and still has to have passports and clearance, and is not going to be covered by the same protections that a military person has.

I know some people here would just love to go to Haiti in CAP garb, but it's not practical, or even prudent. The best way to help is to be a member of organizations such as the Red Cross and be trained up before the incident occurs. Wanting to go after something happens is too little, too late.

Let's not try to rationalize "We could help" with unrealistic concepts, or try to make ourselves out to be something we're not.[/list]

[Hawk200]

The AF can use CAP for almost everything, which is a FACT.

Not a fact at all. CAP has limits as to what it's used for. Non-combatant roles in particular, and those are limited. They can't and won't call CAP up for anything else. New missions for us would have to be vetted, programmed, and training set up for them.

It is my opinion that it is unlikely that they will do so in this case in particular since the internal infrastructure necessary to use CAP members in such overseas roles just doesn't exist even if there were individual CAP members with skills the AF would like to use.

It's not a matter of "won't" call us up because we lack the infrastructure and are untrained, they can't. CAP members have never been "deployed" en masse in the manner that this type of mission would require. It's not our mission, and unlikely that it ever will be. We are not even on the radar when it comes to this type of tasking.

For a callup such as this, CAP members would probably be used a unskilled labor. We have no training (as CAP) for this mission.

[SarMaster]

Heres a fact... CAP IS FULL OF WANNABEE'S!   We will never be looked at serioulsy by anybody... Were just a buch of kids that wear orange scarfs and old farts that fly our planes.   Worthless orginization.. We cant even support out own people! How the hell are we going to support another country. We dont have logistical support to run a 3 day REDCAP...Now you want to go to a 3rd World country... Fools!   CAP is a complete waste of time!  Look at Katrina... We self deployed to conduct 'RECON'...then when we went to the State EOC with  our 'Reports' they looked at us like fools abd said 'Who the hell are you'.  Or in Florida Durring Charlie when the cap guys showed up they told them to 'Sit in a corner'  and they said 'Oh look...the boyscouts are here'   CAP will NEVER understand Emergency Managment..EVER!  Knobody is or will ever take CAP seriously unless we lose the Cadets and the arrogant morons and listen to the professionals....


Fools!

[Ned]

^^

Feel better?

Very constructive.  I'm confident you have pursuaded many people.  Good job.

[RiverAux]

There is a difference between what the AF can legally use CAP for and what they are actually likely to use CAP for.  To say that they could do it doesn't mean that I think that they should or that we could do it if asked. 

There is absoloutely nothing that legally restricts the AF from using CAP anywhere in the world (and by the way, I did specifically quote the law that restricts such use to non-combat missions). 

However, while technically possible to use CAP members for a lot of things relevant to this disaster, I don't see it happening because I agree that right now we don't have a lot to bring to the table beyond our traditional mission capabilities.  Could we develop such capabilities?  Probably.  Should we?  Maybe, maybe not. 

[SarMaster]

My Squadron is ready!   we have 34 Cadet Rangers, and 4 , 78 year old Pilots....  Maybe we can hand out water!   Oh I forgot  my Rangers are "Medics"  so maybe we can...hand out bandaids?  Dont forget to to bring the walkers for the seniors.

[Gunner C]

Fools!

Don't get tense, Buzz. Unless you're Mr. T don't call me (or anyone else) a fool, a wannabe, or an old fart.  I (and a whole bunch of others here) have more time in a T-10 than you have in a T-shirt.

So sit down in the corner.  Have a lollypop, and be a good boy.  Watch as we show you how the world works.

Been there, done that, got a whole drawer full of t-shirts.

[JoeTomasone]

http://www2.tbo.com/content/2010/jan/16/local-ham-operators-may-soon-head-haiti/news-breaking/

Local ham operators may soon head to Haiti
TBO.com Staff

Tampa Bay area ham radio operators may soon be heading to Haiti to help with earthquake relief efforts.

So far, more than 20 operators from Charlotte, Highlands, Hillsborough and Pinellas counties have volunteered to fly down to Haiti and set up radio systems in a devastated nation bereft of communications, according to Neil H. Lauritsen Sr., Pinellas County Auxiliary Communications Service radio officer.

Lauritsen has been tasked with recruiting amateur radio operators and equipment for deployment to Haiti. Aside from those who have volunteered, more are applying for passports or are renewing their old ones, he said, meaning that even more ham operators from the area might be heading to the disaster zone.

Once deployed, they will be assigned to assist relief organizations already in place on Haiti. Other operators have volunteered their equipment.

The Florida Emergency Operations Center has placed the deployment on standby until more infrastructure can be put in place for their safety. Valid passports will be needed.

Arrangements are being made to be able to keep the operators in contact with each other for both support and security in addition to their primary function of providing communications within Haiti and between Haiti and the U.S. These deployments may last for up to a week.

The State Department has set up a special office at the Miami Airport to expedite passports issuance if needed, according to Lauritsen. The operators will likely depart the U.S. from Miami, he said.

[SarMaster]

Yes...I must be new to disaster operations....so how does it really work?   Just sounds like CAP dosent know whats goin on!

Enlighten me???

[MIKE]

You want a no expenses paid vacation from the forums SarMaster?  It can be arranged.

[SarMaster]

So how does the 'World Work'?  in CAP Disaster Ops?   Seriously... I would like to know...

[Hawk200]

There is absoloutely nothing that legally restricts the AF from using CAP anywhere in the world

That, you're gonna have to prove to me. I seriously doubt that CAP would be utilized anywhere other than home soil. And I would highly doubt that overseas deployments fit anywhere within the Air Force's mission statement for CAP.

[SarMaster]

Headlines  "Civil Air PAtrol Sends Cadets and Geriatric Pilots to Iraq to support troops!"     

[RiverAux]

I already quoted you the federal law that authorizes the use of CAP for AF noncombat missions.  There is no geographical limitation in any law.  Burden of proof is on you to show that there is a legal limitation on that authority. 

I seriously doubt that CAP would be utilized anywhere other than home soil

Actually it happend this summer on a SAR mission (we've got a thread about it here somewhere), but as I've said several times, I think we're both in agreement on the liklihood of this happening. 

And I would highly doubt that overseas deployments fit anywhere within the Air Force's mission statement for CAP.

Never said that the AF would want to use CAP anywhere else, just that they could if they wanted to (which they probably don't).


Probably the best way CAP could support this sort of operation is similar to how the CG primarily uses CG Aux in such disaster situations -- backfill and support by trying to keep things going at home while the others are out responding to the mission.  If there was a very active VSAF program I could see the potential for some CAP members filling in for individual AF members that were sent to help in the mission.  But, we're not set up to do that at the moment.

FYI, from a message sent to CG Aux members today:

At this point, we know that the Homeland Security TaskForce-Southeast was activated in the Coast Guard's 7th District, based inMiami, and is responsible for supporting U.S. Agency for InternationalDevelopment (USAID) relief efforts in Haiti, under the direction of theCoast Guard's Seventh District Commander, Rear Admiral Robert Branham.There has been a preliminary data call for Auxiliary interpreter servicesand capabilities, but not a mobilization of them.  They are basically in astand-by status and are being coordinated, arranged, and monitored by theAuxiliary Director of Interpreter Support, Klaus Baumann.  There are noother specific calls for Auxiliary mobilization at this time.

[Flying Pig]

Your the one using the screen name "SARMASTER" you tell us.  Not a bash on CAP, however, I would say if CAP is your only exposure to SAR, then you have a lot to learn.  If your experience goes beyond that, elighten us a little about your training and experience vs callnig everyone fools.  Because there are several people on here that I know for a fact have real world experience beyond CAP in overseas operations, SAR, Homeland Security, military, etc.

[NCRblues]

I am a fool because I participate in a nationally recognized and congressionally charted volunteer organization? I am a fool somehow, because we have a cadet program that ranks amongst the best youth organizations in the world?

How would "ditching" the cadet program help make the professionals "take us seriously"??

The reason that some of the professionals do not like cap, is because of people like you. You slander and smear members that give up their time and personal life to better the nation. If you ever listen (which I doubt you do) to any professional organization/military/police/fire/ems, they say all the time volunteer organizations like cap are a god send. Caps current detractors point to some incidents during Katrina, yet they have no answer when told if we did such a poor job, why did cap receive thanks from 2 state governors, numerous military generals and leaders, tens (if not hundred or more) members of congress. Why if cap was doing such a poor job all around, did we have not a single bad moment on every national news channel and website?

The only reason you are saying this is because you get to hide behind a screen name. If we were in person, you would not be calling me, or anyone else for that matter, a fool.

You are the joke here.

[Pumbaa]

I am at Joint Forces Command (USJFCOM) under General Mattis.  (Google it)    I happen to be in the JDC. (also Fleet Forces Command is there). I see first hand how the Haiti deployment works.  Wish and postulate all you want, about CAP and Haiti or anything else for that matter.  It donwerkthatway...

[Gunner C]

I'd be interested in hearing how the deployments are being handled by JFCOM.  Being a command center guy I'm always interested in hearing how other organizations handle surge operations like this.

I saw earlier how a contingency unit at Davis-Montham is controlling the flow. Very interesting and I think it would be enlightening to a CAP audience.

[SarMaster]

Ok...Here we go.

I have been in CAP 19 years, as a Cadet and Senior.  This organization has gone through ups and downs....a handfull of members have real world experience, Military, Federal, State...and so on.  But the vast majority of CAP members are are own worst enemy.  National HQ needs to start to educate the members on Emergency Management and how the 'Real World' works.  If not we are going to continue to dig ourselves deeper.  I have been on many disasters in the Fire Service and Emergency Mgt in a leadership capacity.  For the most part when CAP shows up to an incident , Our appearance is not up to par...We think we are the 'Authority' in anything military related, and when asked to step up to the plate we regularly fall on our face...   There are many Wings that are simply 'Banned' from any SAR or DR work in their State.    We need to become more professional , and listen to the Emergency Managers trying to help us.  But some (most)  just don't get it!  Our future is in disaster ops..... We need to let the ego's go and start to learn! 


Regards

NWCG Type I COM-L
FEMA Type II Incident Commander
Certified Emergency Manager
Fire Service Officer
Paramedic

But again... I may not have any real word experience...

[raivo]

I'll put it this way.

There are lot of CAP members out there who are skilled at ES operations. These are the people you don't always see, because they work successfully behind the scenes and don't make a big deal of themselves.

There are also a lot of CAP members out there who think that BDUs and ES qualification patches automatically make them a B-A expert on all things military and ES. They like to put themselves in the spotlight whenever there's glory to be had.

Unfortunately, oftentimes it's the latter that get attention rather than the former, and that's why CAP often gets a bad rap with emergency management authorities.

... but, that doesn't answer the original question. Answer: CAP is not equipped for this type of mission, should not be equipped for this type of mission, and will almost certainly never been used for this type of mission.

[SarMaster]

Roger that. 

[Hawk200]

I already quoted you the federal law that authorizes the use of CAP for AF noncombat missions.

No, you did not. You quoted a line ("To assist the Department of the Air Force infulfilling its noncombat programs and missions.") that said CAP is used by the Air Force for non-combatant missions. That's it. You have no reference to any law, regulation, statute, or order whatsoever.

There is no geographical limitation in any law.  Burden of proof is on you to show that there is a legal limitation on that authority.

I don't have to prove that there's a limitation, you have to prove that it's allowed. You started the debate, burden of proof is on you. Just because something doesn't say that CAP members can't be deployed to a foreign country doesn't mean that it's allowed.

Yes, I know we have overseas units, but it is nowhere near the same thing.

Actually it happend this summer on a SAR mission (we've got a thread about it here somewhere),

OK, where's the thread?

but as I've said several times, I think we're both in agreement on the liklihood of this happening.

We agree that it's unlikely, but not for the same reasons.

...just that they could if they wanted to

Once again, you've made the statement that they can do so. Now show it. Reference the law, preferably with valid links to it, for all to see.

Probably the best way CAP could support this sort of operation is similar to how the CG primarily uses CG Aux in such disaster situations -- backfill and support by trying to keep things going at home while the others are out responding to the mission.  If there was a very active VSAF program I could see the potential for some CAP members filling in for individual AF members that were sent to help in the mission.  But, we're not set up to do that at the moment.

A lot of backfills are done by the Guard and Reserve components. While a nice concept to make us useful, I don't see that happening either.

FYI, from a message sent to CG Aux members today:....

Coast Guard messages, actions and policies do not apply to CAP. I don't see why you even included this.

[PHall]

Ok...Here we go.

I have been in CAP 19 years, as a Cadet and Senior.  This organization has gone through ups and downs....a handfull of members have real world experience, Military, Federal, State...and so on.  But the vast majority of CAP members are are own worst enemy.  National HQ needs to start to educate the members on Emergency Management and how the 'Real World' works.  If not we are going to continue to dig ourselves deeper.  I have been on many disasters in the Fire Service and Emergency Mgt in a leadership capacity.  For the most part when CAP shows up to an incident , Our appearance is not up to par...We think we are the 'Authority' in anything military related, and when asked to step up to the plate we regularly fall on our face...   There are many Wings that are simply 'Banned' from any SAR or DR work in their State.    We need to become more professional , and listen to the Emergency Managers trying to help us.  But some (most)  just don't get it!  Our future is in disaster ops..... We need to let the ego's go and start to learn! 


Regards

NWCG Type I COM-L
FEMA Type II Incident Commander
Certified Emergency Manager
Fire Service Officer
Paramedic

But again... I may not have any real word experience...

With all of that "experience", why do you waste your time with us "fools"?

[RiverAux]

Hawk, I can't do all your research for you.  If you don't know one of the explicit purposes for which Congress chartered CAP by sight, then look it up yourself.  Its easy to find.  Its in CAP regulations too, by the way. 

[SarMaster]

PHall,

Thats a good question..  It used to be fun...now I even question that!

[Flying Pig]

Ok...Here we go.

I have been in CAP 19 years, as a Cadet and Senior.  This organization has gone through ups and downs....a handfull of members have real world experience, Military, Federal, State...and so on.  But the vast majority of CAP members are are own worst enemy.  National HQ needs to start to educate the members on Emergency Management and how the 'Real World' works.  If not we are going to continue to dig ourselves deeper.  I have been on many disasters in the Fire Service and Emergency Mgt in a leadership capacity.  For the most part when CAP shows up to an incident , Our appearance is not up to par...We think we are the 'Authority' in anything military related, and when asked to step up to the plate we regularly fall on our face...   There are many Wings that are simply 'Banned' from any SAR or DR work in their State.    We need to become more professional , and listen to the Emergency Managers trying to help us.  But some (most)  just don't get it!  Our future is in disaster ops..... We need to let the ego's go and start to learn! 


Regards

NWCG Type I COM-L
FEMA Type II Incident Commander
Certified Emergency Manager
Fire Service Officer
Paramedic

But again... I may not have any real word experience...

With all of that "experience", why do you waste your time with us "fools"?

OK.  So your a Firefighter-Paramedic?  I mean is that what you do? 

[Hawk200]

Hawk, I can't do all your research for you.  If you don't know one of the explicit purposes for which Congress chartered CAP by sight, then look it up yourself.  Its easy to find.  Its in CAP regulations too, by the way.

In other words, you don't have a reference. Nice try, River. Hasn't flown the last few times, won't now.

[SarMaster]

Im actually a Professional Emergency Manager,  and a part time NASAR Instructor.
Was a Fire Medic  for 8 years.

Type I CAP IC....blah blah blah...


?But that doesn't mean anything to CAP....

In order for CAP to be taken seriously we need to act like professionals. Not like wannabees.  Cadets have there place (I used to be one)  but Disaster and SAR is not the place. When we are called upon we are expected to preform just like per say a volunteer fire dept would. Trained, equipped and professional.  You don't see 12 year old Vol Firefighters carrying 75 lbs backpacks in the woods do you?  Instead we show up as ' know it alls' that look like we just slept in our uniforms. 
Just recent in a search for a missing person CAP went to the Sheriff ICP and lectured the Sheriff IC on how to properly conduct a 'Hasty' search, and how they were not utilizing ICS properly.... This is why we need to tighten up and become professional 'responders' not wannabees!

Our image with Local , State and federal agencies is suffering. 

[BTCS1*]

On the subject of hams in Haiti, I was listening to the EchoLink node for the Haiti relief effort today and it seems that many hams are interested in helpig as net control, or to relay messages and whatnot. You could hear/see new guys check inti the net every few minutes wanting to help. 

[heliodoc]

Being a former EM type, current CAP type and former USAR ARNG helo mech type

CAP folks "gonna" get this mission?  Where's the Southern Command tasking order, Huh?

Got your shot records?  Think CAP's 24 or 72 hr pack is going to last??  Ready to live under a blue tent?  What US Army security forces are going to be tied up to support  Ms Courters' band of merry volunteers?   These thing have to be realized by CAP.  But by reading these posts, their are some folks that need a couple of hitches to Active Duty or some USAID and State Dept assignments, heck even Peace Corps, to get a REAL vision of what is really going on here.   CAP needs ALOT of TRAINING and CURRICULUM development and how about some real world taskings on our own Third World Native American reservations.  MAYBE then CAP MIGHT be able to be ready for a mission 1/72 the size of Haiti.

How =would that work in CAP and CAPers desires for some Third World equivalent work??   Before we get assigned overseas we best be doing some REAL work in the US and show up like we mean it rather than getting 64 CAP stragglers wanting to go home tomorrow

See those US&R types?? What kind of logistics train do you suppose THEY got???

Supposedly we "can be used in USAF non combatant taskings."  But let  US (CAP) REALLY be serious here.........

Where has our "DR" tasking" orders been for the last 40 yrs??  This is my second time around CAP  and I was a realist  in the last 40 yrs...

Better stay good at what we are currently tasked to do....OR  get those "PROFESSIONALS" at CAP NHQ to get up on Capitol Hill and start WORKING with FEAM and DHS and PROVE how good we are or AT LEAST BE WILLING TO WORK SOMEONE else's mission(s).

Prove to me....if alll the problems with one taxiway and one active runway....HOW do you suppose a CAP AOBD is trained to work with all that heavy iron and rotary motion going on....... CAP AOBD would just become the coffee and donut getter and quite possibly assist the AF on status boards.

Folks until we are TRUUUUUUULY trained up for REAL DR and its ancillary duties........Better get your CAP on and serve the missions right here in the States.  Keep dreamin til we get a real tasking  and then CAPers BETTER anticipate (like wildland fire) 2 to 3 week(s) assignments.. CAPers  think this assignment is for you??   Maybe see how far you get at the ARC chapter

When and if we get those.  Leave your bling and CAP "knowledge" at home.  Time to assimilate into someone else's mission taskings and assignments........CAP may not even like those

Hope for the best CAP in a mission tasking order!

[SarMaster]

Its about time someone with some brains chimed in...Thanks Doc!

[heliodoc]

No problem SarMAster

BUT I do not claim to have all the answers.

CAP just needs to be more realistic when it comes to world DR issues

Our day will come....will CAP really be ready?   We will see!!!

[Gunner C]

Its about time someone with some brains chimed in...Thanks Doc!

Wow, you must be a real hoot at squadron meetings.  Can you say anything without an insult?

[Spike]

At the Base, we (CAP) donated blood this week, and helped pack out pallets of water from the local community in coordination with the red cross and DoD blood program.  The water flew out on transport yesterday (to Puerto Rico) and our blood is most likely getting packaged as I write this.

As far as the military is concerned, this is the most CAP can provide in my area.  We stacked cases of water on pallets, wrapped them in plastic, inserted the "help form the United States" paper and moved on to the next pallet.

After donating blood, we ate cookies and drank orange juice.  I feel like I helped, and need not do any more.   

[DG]

Heres a fact... CAP IS FULL OF WANNABEE'S!   We will never be looked at serioulsy by anybody... Were just a buch of kids that wear orange scarfs and old farts that fly our planes.   Worthless orginization.. We cant even support out own people! How the hell are we going to support another country. We dont have logistical support to run a 3 day REDCAP...Now you want to go to a 3rd World country... Fools!   CAP is a complete waste of time!  Look at Katrina... We self deployed to conduct 'RECON'...then when we went to the State EOC with  our 'Reports' they looked at us like fools abd said 'Who the hell are you'.  Or in Florida Durring Charlie when the cap guys showed up they told them to 'Sit in a corner'  and they said 'Oh look...the boyscouts are here'   CAP will NEVER understand Emergency Managment..EVER!  Knobody is or will ever take CAP seriously unless we lose the Cadets and the arrogant morons and listen to the professionals....


Fools!

Speak for yourself.

[DG]

Ok...Here we go.

I have been in CAP 19 years, as a Cadet and Senior.  This organization has gone through ups and downs....a handfull of members have real world experience, Military, Federal, State...and so on.  But the vast majority of CAP members are are own worst enemy.  National HQ needs to start to educate the members on Emergency Management and how the 'Real World' works.  If not we are going to continue to dig ourselves deeper.  I have been on many disasters in the Fire Service and Emergency Mgt in a leadership capacity.  For the most part when CAP shows up to an incident , Our appearance is not up to par...We think we are the 'Authority' in anything military related, and when asked to step up to the plate we regularly fall on our face...   There are many Wings that are simply 'Banned' from any SAR or DR work in their State.    We need to become more professional , and listen to the Emergency Managers trying to help us.  But some (most)  just don't get it!  Our future is in disaster ops..... We need to let the ego's go and start to learn! 


Regards

NWCG Type I COM-L
FEMA Type II Incident Commander
Certified Emergency Manager
Fire Service Officer
Paramedic

But again... I may not have any real word experience...

Is there some way we can communicate to FEMA about this guy?

Is this who thay want taking on the position of an IC?

[mikebank]

I am a fool because I participate in a nationally recognized and congressionally charted volunteer organization? I am a fool somehow, because we have a cadet program that ranks amongst the best youth organizations in the world?

How would "ditching" the cadet program help make the professionals "take us seriously"??

The reason that some of the professionals do not like cap, is because of people like you. You slander and smear members that give up their time and personal life to better the nation. If you ever listen (which I doubt you do) to any professional organization/military/police/fire/ems, they say all the time volunteer organizations like cap are a god send. Caps current detractors point to some incidents during Katrina, yet they have no answer when told if we did such a poor job, why did cap receive thanks from 2 state governors, numerous military generals and leaders, tens (if not hundred or more) members of congress. Why if cap was doing such a poor job all around, did we have not a single bad moment on every national news channel and website?

The only reason you are saying this is because you get to hide behind a screen name. If we were in person, you would not be calling me, or anyone else for that matter, a fool.

You are the joke here.

I agree, I'm sure they are proud of him in his squadron, If he is in one.

[DG]

MESSAGE FROM SECRETARY NAPOLITANO: THE DEPARTMENT'S RESPONSE IN HAITI

January 15, 2010
 
The Department's Response in Haiti
 
Dear Colleagues,
 
The great tragedy unfolding in Haiti has led to an outpouring of support here at home and around the world.
 
As a Department, we are moving rapidly to support the search, rescue, and relief efforts in Haiti. The U.S. Coast Guard, Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), and Customs and Border Protection (CBP) are leading DHS actions to support the larger assistance effort. 
 
Four Coast Guard cutters have arrived in Haiti, in addition to a variety of Coast Guard assets that were already in the area to support military air traffic control, conduct damage assessments and rescue people in need of assistance.

FEMA continues to work closely with the State Department and USAID, who are leading the U.S. federal response, while coordinating the deployment of state and local Urban Search and Rescue Teams from across the country to Haiti.

CBP has provided aircraft to support response efforts.
 
The rebuilding process for the people of Haiti will undoubtedly be extremely difficult. As DHS employees, many of you are already contributing to the response effort. If you are interested in providing additional support to those in need, you can visit www.whitehouse.gov/haitiearthquake to make a monetary contribution. You can also make a $10 donation to the Red Cross simply by texting the word "Haiti" to the number "90999" from your mobile phone.
 
For individuals seeking information about family members in Haiti, the State Department has set up a toll free number, (888) 407-4747.
 
Thank you again for your service to DHS and to our Nation. Working together, our Department is making a difference for the people of Haiti during this time of tragedy.
 
Yours very truly,
   
Janet Napolitano
Secretary

[SarMaster]

Its time for CAP to realize that they are NOT the athority on SAR / DR and they need to get a clue before  we make bigger fools of ourselvs. It seems that the professionals who do this every day are ignored by CAP leadership.  We should learn from our mistakes (Katrina) and better equip and train ourselvs for the mission.   Untill then we should prepare to take a back seat unless your all for making us look more unprofessional.  I have seen it too many times when CAP is egar to help but shows up and makes it worse. I hate to bash an orginization I am part of...and it is not my intent... We all need to become more professional or its going to become much worse.

[NC Hokie]

Its time for CAP to realize that they are NOT the athority on SAR / DR and they need to get a clue before  we make bigger fools of ourselvs. It seems that the professionals who do this every day are ignored by CAP leadership.  We should learn from our mistakes (Katrina) and better equip and train ourselvs for the mission.   Untill then we should prepare to take a back seat unless your all for making us look more unprofessional.  I have seen it too many times when CAP is egar to help but shows up and makes it worse. I hate to bash an orginization I am part of...and it is not my intent... We all need to become more professional or its going to become much worse.

What are you doing to make CAP better in SAR/DR and what practical suggestions do you have for those of us that want to "better equip and train ourselves for the mission" and "become more professional?"

[Rotorhead]

Would something like the 7.0 in Hati ever prompt the government to ask for CAP's help in a foriegn country?
Thanks

No, nor should it.

[Rotorhead]

Heres a fact... CAP IS FULL OF WANNABEE'S!   We will never be looked at serioulsy by anybody... Were just a buch of kids that wear orange scarfs and old farts that fly our planes.   Worthless orginization..

No one's forcing you to be a member. You can leave at any time.

Of course, if you are, you could work to fix the problem instead of whining.

[Ned]

I hate to bash an organization I am part of...and it is not my intent...

It seems like an odd statement for a guy who spends most of his posts bashing CAP, but I'll take you at your word.  Let me help you stop bashing CAP.

First:

Its time for CAP to realize that they are NOT the athority on SAR / DR and they need to get a clue before  we make bigger fools of ourselves.

This is a classic strawman argument.  No one has ever said that CAP is "the athority [sic] on SAR/DR".  Such a statement would be patently specious and false.  Which is why it is pretty easy for you to "disprove it."  I would note that the only person who has used the word "fool" in this thread is you.  That means something, but I'll let you puzzle that one out.

One way to stop bashing CAP  is to avoid using logical fallacies when posting about CAP.

Second:

It seems that the professionals who do this every day are ignored by CAP leadership.

This is a conclusionary statement devoid of facts.  You have already told us that - by a remarkable coincidence - you are a professional firefighter/medic who presumably "does this every day."  What specific recommendations did you make to CAP leadership that were ignored?  What specific recommendations made by others were ignored?  Please be specific.  (Also note that disagreeing with a recommendation is not the same thing as ignoring it.)

Avoiding making conclusionary statements devoid of facts is another way to avoid bashing CAP.

Third:

We should learn from our mistakes (Katrina) and better equip and train ourselves for the mission. 

This is a statement premised on a false assumption - that CAP has not somehow "learned from Katrina."

Others have posted the link to the detailed and highly critical AAR CAP did of our performance in the aftermath of Katrina.  Mistakes we clearly identified and corrective actions suggested.  What part of that is not "learning from out mistakes?"

Every major organization related to the DR effort did their own AAR.  I haven't read them all, but I'll wager, every organization made one or more errors and has also identified areas for improvement in things like equipment, training, and organization.


Also another strawman argument snuck in there - that somehow CAP does not think we need more equipment and training to perform DR.  That is certainly not CAP's official position, nor is it a fair summary of what anyone has said on this thread.  Of course we could use more training and equipment.  But it is a question of resources.  More equipment is more money.  Nobody seems to be offering to give us significant amounts of equipment.  There does not appear to be a reasonable expectation of larger appropriations from Congress for such equipment, nor does there appear to be a groundswell of sentiment suggesting that our dues be significantly raised to purchase more equipment.

Perhaps your agency would like to donate significant amounts of equipment?


Avoiding expressing false assumptions is still another way to avoid bashing CAP.

Fourth:

Until then we should prepare to take a back seat unless your all for making us look more unprofessional.

Strawman, again.  No one has ever proposed that CAP would be the lead agency in a DR situation.  I suspect that means we will always be in the "back seat".



Well, overall this is good news.  Assuming that you really want to avoid bashing CAP, this will turn out to be surprisingly easy for you.

Just avoid the false assumptions and logical fallacies, and you should do fine.  I sincerely wish you luck in this endeavor.


Thank you for your service.

[heliodoc]

Here's a suggestion

Train to the Federal standards set out by FEMA, NASAR, wildland fire standards, heck even the fire dept.

This whole argument with SarMaster....welll it's really going nowhere

Face it...CAP needs ALOT of face time with the DR and Emergency Management world ...more than the feel good stuff written in the Volunteer

Facts is.... where IS CAP's AAR's in LLIS .gov?  I personally have not been there lately...Prove to me CAP EVEN uses this Federal Guv sponsored site

Facts is.......CAP needs to puts AAR's on its OWN website(s) look at the wildland fire websites..accy investos, SAFECOMS

Look it up for yourselves.....bashing each other on this site does NOTHING for training......  CAP is good for search and some recovery operations...but to think we are going to zoom in with C182T G1000's and GA-8's w/ ARCHER everytime a DR mission goes up ...wellllll in know very well where I am at ARCHER GA8 and even training the G1000 will NEVER reach a potential that CAP wants or could even envision without more training dollars, practice missions, tabletops, drills, functional, and large scale exercised with EVERYONE in the First Responder community EVEN if we do not play in everyones circle of hot zones.

What are the logical fallacies when posting about CAP??  I do know we are NOT moving aircraft or van loads of seniors or cadets on many EM or airport practice emergencies every day of the week.

Let me help you stop bashing SarMaster ....ignore it    I KNOW some of you folks can not and can not let things go

CAP needs ALOT of improvements and for some of you pro CAPers and CAP lifers....there is DEFINITE NEEDS for improvements in ALL areas whether ANYONE here wants to admit or not.  We at the local level are trying to improve but many agencies I have talked to in my time in and OUT of CAP have not even heard of the organization

Indicating to me after 30 years CAP STILL fails on a Natl Level and Wing level to PERSONALLY get MORE words out than some trifold piece of paper OR handing out some outdated CAPabilities sheet that probably has not been updated for at least 1 year or less. How's that report to Congress every year been helping us out on getting HR 1178 moving  ..."directing the Comptroller General....blah blah blah on how good a "force multiplier" CAP is...IS CAP NHQ / NEB REALLY talking to the Congress and Senate to assists in getting off center??

So when folks slam each other here.......look at the real facts has the real hard work been done getting real credentialing done more serious training other than what is offered?  Maybe its time for CAP to marry up with NASAR...then the real SAR business may unfold, maybe train with CG Auxies for Ground SAR and on and on.

Sar Master may be having a bad week....... don't know...and like everything here.... I know one personally here

But the true respect for everyone is lacking....I could go off on everyone here.........

Bottom line...  CAP either improves to National standard in 5 -10 years or gets left behind somewhere that includes the GOB flying program!!

[Major Carrales]

OK, I have just read pages of the most disgusting display of unprofessionalism I have read in a long while.

Stand down...everyone.

What is missing here is perspective.  I have not been in on these discussion and, hence, do not suffer from the emotional salvos that are transpiring here.  Here is my take...

1) CAP need not deploy overseas.  Ours is a Domestic Mission.  If CAP were to deploy over seas for this effort, it would likely be as individuals attached to some other Command.  NO CAP frontage, no CAP ICS...only, likely, a call from CAP-USAF for persons with certain skills (COMM people), or to donate blood or to offer relief to staffing.  There will be no Ground Teams, flying might be proposed, but will never happen.  That would be all.  No cadets in the field, no ICs (qualified or not) and no need for drama.

2) Cadets in ES serve their purpose in UDF, MRO, MSA and, to an extent on the CAP Ground Teams.  There, under adult supervision, they can operate as well as any trained person in that position.  There will never be true cadet ICs, Aircrew, Branch Directors et cetra (you might run these positions at squadron meetings to teach applied understanding of the Incident Command System, but reality is reality)  In every operation, ranging form Hurricane Ike to local UDF searches Local, State and Federal authorities praised the cadets for the work they were doing.  It was limited work, but in a world where gangs run rampant and children know more of Mario and Luigi than math and science, it was a significant blessing demonstrating that even the "lesser of us" can be well trained, professional and mission centered.

3) If one is to be critical of CAP, they must offer solutions to the problems...and not just general ones.  The issues presented by CAP critics on this forum I have used in my local sphere to develop a professional unit of aviators and Staff (many of them are former Navy OPS, others possessing a plethora of skills).  I have been much applicative of RiverAux, among others, which whom I have clashed before, but two which much insight was provided.  I, also, at times, play "devil's advocate" because ideas, theories and concepts untested and untempered by debate present an "unknown" that can "fail in operation."  Dissent serves to provide those tests and tempers.

4) We should all be WANNABE's, as in we should all WANT TO BE...BETTER.  CAP is a grassroots local organization in the same mold as "minutemen" of old.  We all, that are active, devote time and energy to CAP, not for PERSONAL GLORIFICATION, but as a calling to serve a communitarian need.  To be there, in  helpful capacity...not simply sit by.  There are three types of people in this world; those that make things happen, those that watch what happened and those the wonder what happened.  I should hope that we CAP Officers and Cadets are making things happen.  During Disaster mitigation we should all have an active role, during the event and recovery we should seek to be a boon, not a hindrance, to what is transpiring.

If you have certain skills...and look down a "metaphorical nose" at someone who does not have those skills...then you should help develop them in that individual.  You should organize the classes and guide the exercises to bring others up.   Remember, there is nothing quite so strong as the heart of a volunteer.  There are many in many related jobs that, after a week's work, leave it with a form of almost contempt for it (with rhetoric that seems to indicate they hate their work) ; while volunteers are there, sans pay, and are willing to push.  That is what CAP's critics and supporters alike should be harnessing.

[ketseyowyow]

The east coast squadrons of Florida are taking part from home, they send things over there. http://www.sercap.us/capmodule/inews/view.asp?ID=298
is the link you can read about it.
I know my dad is on a frigate and helping out down there w/humanitarian aid.
Just bring it up in your squadron, I know that one of the cadets in MD, (MER-MD-089, a squadron I used to go to) is gonna try and bring it up wed. night at the meeting.

[Eagle 1]

Yeah, back to the topic, here's a news article on what we're doing to help in New Jersey
http://www.capvolunteernow.com/headline_news.cfm/cap_members_among_mcguire_afb_relief_volunteers?show=news&newsID=6627

I think it's pretty fair to say that the scope of our involvement is limited to the things that have already been mentioned (blood drive, sending supplies, logistical support from home).

[DG]

Here is a great story about my friend Andrew Diffley and his Piper Aztec.

PAWG had an Aztek a few years ago.

They traded it in for a Saratoga and then traded that in for a U-206 NAVIII

http://cbs3.com/video/?id=95491@kyw.dayport.com

[Seabee219]

If anyone in CAP wants to BASH us over and over, turn your uniform in and have a nice day.  You can help change all that you think is wrong.

  Now, it is great that we as Americans are helping our fellow man in Haiti get over this terrible thing.  You have texting going on to raise money, stars donating money and singing for fund raising and it is a very noble effort.  But my questions is, why are Americans not helping Americans as well.  Could we text to help raise money so that teachers in charter schools have jobs and our Gov will not write an IOU so they can get a pay check.  Or stars that make 20 million a movie give some to people that are starving right around the corner from them.  Yes some do give and I am sure its going on and we do not hear about it, but it would be nice to see that going on as well.

[DG]

If anyone in CAP wants to BASH us over and over, turn your uniform in and have a nice day.  You can help change all that you think is wrong.

  Now, it is great that we as Americans are helping our fellow man in Haiti get over this terrible thing.  You have texting going on to raise money, stars donating money and singing for fund raising and it is a very noble effort.  But my questions is, why are Americans not helping Americans as well.  Could we text to help raise money so that teachers in charter schools have jobs and our Gov will not write an IOU so they can get a pay check.  Or stars that make 20 million a movie give some to people that are starving right around the corner from them.  Yes some do give and I am sure its going on and we do not hear about it, but it would be nice to see that going on as well.

Is it true?

I heard that President Obama is working behind the scenes to get support for annexing Haiti as the 51st state.

Then we would be helping ourselves.

[raivo]

Apparently a team of ham radio operators from the Dominican Republic went in to try and help with communications. They got shot at as soon as they left their embassy, some of them were injured.

http://www.arrl.org/news/stories/2010/01/18/11293/

Again, this is definitely somewhere CAP does not want to be.