Mission Pilot/Observer

[Flying Pig]

I will offer this, in law enforcement we fly with a pilot and observer.  There is never any question as to what roles we play in the aircraft or on the mission.  Even with 2 pilot crews.  Also something to think about is that ALL of our pilots spent years as observers before becoming unit pilots.  So in our cases, the pilot was a very seasoned and respected observer, which is what got them selected to pilot training to begin with.  However, rarely if ever, do we step on each others toes.  The sole reason for the helicopter or the airplane and its pilots is to carry the observer and his equipment ie. FLIR, Spot light, Rescue Gear, etc. to the target.  The pilot is the PIC of the aircraft, however, the Observer directs the actions and its up to the pilot to keep the observer in a position to allow him to do the job.  Its not up to the pilot to say "Ahhh...were done here."  The Observer would respond back, "No, we arent.  Keep orbiting until Im finished."  Baring any safety of flight issues.  Provided the flight is still proceeding in a safe manner, in a half joking, half serious tone, I have responded as an observer "Just sit over there and be quiet, and keep your fingers off of my radios."   If a pilot ever cancelled a call or cleared it, over riding the observer, it better be because the observer had completely lost his mind and was screwing the pooch.  Short of that......
Again keeping in mind that the pilot has ALWAYS been in the Observers shoes before sliding over, so they know what used to irritate them as observers.

Im going to quote myself as a reference here.....

I wonder why these questions of who is in charge are so prevailing in CAP, but outside of CAP in other SAR/Aviation organizations, its just understood.  One issue I think is that at least in Law Enforcement Aviation, we all know and work with each other on a daily basis. We all tried out and earned our positions and completed a rigorous training program that not everyone passes.  And we all realize what an awesome privilege it is to be where we are.  Ive run across many CAP members of all ranks and positions who think CAP would fold without them.  Sometimes that can translate into the cockpit.
I think a lot of civilian pilots who do not fly operationally with "aircrews" who are performing missions regularly view the Scanner and Observer as passengers instead of team members.  Some pilots here, come from an aircrew environment where we cannot do each others jobs even if we wanted to.   So when I get in the Observer seat, I already know my role because Ive been there. 

[Auxpilot]

I will offer this, in law enforcement we fly with a pilot and observer.  There is never any question as to what roles we play in the aircraft or on the mission.  Even with 2 pilot crews.  Also something to think about is that ALL of our pilots spent years as observers before becoming unit pilots.  So in our cases, the pilot was a very seasoned and respected observer, which is what got them selected to pilot training to begin with.  However, rarely if ever, do we step on each others toes.  The sole reason for the helicopter or the airplane and its pilots is to carry the observer and his equipment ie. FLIR, Spot light, Rescue Gear, etc. to the target.  The pilot is the PIC of the aircraft, however, the Observer directs the actions and its up to the pilot to keep the observer in a position to allow him to do the job.  Its not up to the pilot to say "Ahhh...were done here."  The Observer would respond back, "No, we arent.  Keep orbiting until Im finished."  Baring any safety of flight issues.  Provided the flight is still proceeding in a safe manner, in a half joking, half serious tone, I have responded as an observer "Just sit over there and be quiet, and keep your fingers off of my radios."   If a pilot ever cancelled a call or cleared it, over riding the observer, it better be because the observer had completely lost his mind and was screwing the pooch.  Short of that......
Again keeping in mind that the pilot has ALWAYS been in the Observers shoes before sliding over, so they know what used to irritate them as observers.

Im going to quote myself as a reference here.....

I wonder why these questions of who is in charge are so prevailing in CAP, but outside of CAP in other SAR/Aviation organizations, its just understood.  One issue I think is that at least in Law Enforcement Aviation, we all know and work with each other on a daily basis. We all tried out and earned our positions and completed a rigorous training program that not everyone passes.  And we all realize what an awesome privilege it is to be where we are.  Ive run across many CAP members of all ranks and positions who think CAP would fold without them.  Sometimes that can translate into the cockpit.
I think a lot of civilian pilots who do not fly operationally with "aircrews" who are performing missions regularly view the Scanner and Observer as passengers instead of team members.  Some pilots here, come from an aircrew environment where we cannot do each others jobs even if we wanted to.   So when I get in the Observer seat, I already know my role because Ive been there.

There may be some truth to what you have said about "passengers" rather than team members. That may or may not be as much of an attitude problem as it is a by product of the fact that many of our non-pilot crew members do not get adequate time in the aircraft which creates a situation where the pilot may be the most proficient crew member in the cockpit. (don't start accusing me of looking down my nose at non-pilots, thats not my point)

How many times have you gone to a sarex and found yourself telling a qualified Observer "no, its the little knob on the GX55 that changes the map scale" or something like that. Pilots get to play with the equipment on a regular basis if they are at all current as pilots.

I love to get in the left seat and watch a good Observer do his thing but some times it does not work out that way. It's not that I am any smarter than most, its just that I get into the plane about once a week, rather than once a quarter.

Some of the posts have referred to Observers being off the CAP radio for a length of time which I can't understand. With the 3 comm audio panels that we have now, I don't see too many situations where someone in the cockpit cannot be monitoring comm 3 all of the time, even of the Observer is talking on the aircraft radios. My biggest complaint is usually that the Observer is on the CAP radio too much. When the base asks for 15 minute check ins it seems like the Observer is on the radio more than my daughter is on her cell phone.

Crews that make a living as crews don't have this built in barrier like we do. The best thing that I have found is to determine from the start exactly who can do what and then agree before takeoff who will operate the GPS, the radios, the DF etc. Then there is no confusion or ego issues during the mission. I like to be straight with folks. If I know that an Observer has not been in the cockpit for a year and even though he may be "qualified", I ask him to do a few things on the ground to see exactly what I am up against before takeoff.

Of course that knife cuts both ways. If a hot Observer gets in and finds himself with a pilot that flys 3 take off's every 90 days, he needs to be sure that it is the right move to even take off in the first place.

Bottom line, leave the ego on the ground and remember why we are doing what we do. If you have a bad experience try to make it at least a learning experience instead of painting everyone with the same brush.

[Captain Morgan]

A transport mission in IMC conditions is going to have a higher ORM anyway, and shoudl likey be using a TMP, not an MP.

Further, that's going to be one of the few cases where flying is the mission, so an MO/MS would be irrelevant and probably in the way.

If an experienced MO or MS is EVER in the way, then you either need to evaluate your MO/MS training, or else you are suffering from APS (arrogant pilot syndrome).  The ORM form agrees with me.  I am a MP, by the way.

[Captain Morgan]

I just read through the whole thread and thought I would throw in my two cents:

1.  I think the most experienced in the type of mission should command the mission regardless of what seat they are sitting in.  This does not mean the MP gives up any of the duties and responsibilities of PIC.

2.  We need to remember that one of the important responsibilities of the MP is to train MO's and MS's.  Therefore, we should take it upon ourselves to do what it takes to be "experts" at these positions.  If you are a MP don't feel your Wing has good trained crew members, you need to spend some time looking in the mirror!  The only good "real experince" training they get is from YOU!