DR Doctrine, and lack thereof

[Eclipse]

So this is the relevent part of GES that I think is important:

CAPR 60-3, Page 2, 23-e
"The General Emergency Services specialty rating is required of all individuals qualifying in emergency
services and will be completed prior to commencing training for any other specialty. This
training authorizes members to attend missions, observe activities and perform administrative
and general operations support tasks under the direction of qualified staff personnel, essentially
as a license to learn".

And this is the verbiege used to justify how we're doing things today:
CAPR 60-3, Page 2, 23-g
"g. There are some duty positions that CAP does not have specific specialty qualifications
identified. Any CAP IC can appoint any GES qualified member to fill these gaps in order to
meet the needs of the mission, but must use good judgment to select personnel who have the
appropriate training and backgrounds to be able to successfully complete their assignment."

[NC Hokie]

My larger area of agreement with Eclipse is that CAP should probably generally be aiming to be more useful in these situations than just providing grunt labor.  Our overall lack of doctrine means that no one from the squadron to NHQ really knows what we WANT to do or SHOULD be doing so we end up generally not being asked to do anything or just given some random assignments.

LTC Don can speak with more authority about this than I can, but NCWG has carved out a niche by training for and operating FEMA Points of Distribution in North Carolina. Check out the Facebook page and the NCWG website for more details.

[Eclipse]

We've actually had some discussions recently with a local agency in regards to doing POD as well.  Seems like a potential good fit, but no way I'd put
anything but highly experienced adult members with at least a GTM badge in that position.

[jimmydeanno]

in re: CERT

I've a CERT qualification, and have done the course a few times.  During the last time, the instructor of the local EMA said that FEMA was eliminating the CERT courses.  Anyone else have confirmation of this?

[vento]

in re: CERT

I've a CERT qualification, and have done the course a few times.  During the last time, the instructor of the local EMA said that FEMA was eliminating the CERT courses.  Anyone else have confirmation of this?

Never heard of it. In my city, we just had a new CERT class graduation ceremony last week.
Even if a local CERT is never deployed, it still has its value as a systematic education to citizens. It is all about being better prepared vs not prepared at all during a disaster. 

[Walkman]

The thing with CERT I see as an issue is that we have to get it through an outside agency. Its not a 2 hour course. Its around 30-ish total IIRC. Most members are already busy with their CAP duties and life in general, so taking the time to do an additional 5-6 week course can be problematic.

I could see us using the basic CERT curriculum and developing our own DR3 type of qual. We could probably eliminate some of their coursework, too, as it would be redundant and/or not within CAP's scope anyway.

My former Group CC made another good point a few years ago about being both CERT & CAP: which group take priority? If you're going to be part of the local CERT group, and something comes up that both CAP & CERT might be needed, where do you go? Both organizations are counting on you. I know that the probability isn't very high that this could happen, but neither are many of the things we train for.

[Eclipse]

My former Group CC made another good point a few years ago about being both CERT & CAP: which group take priority? If you're going to be part of the local CERT group, and something comes up that both CAP & CERT might be needed, where do you go? Both organizations are counting on you. I know that the probability isn't very high that this could happen, but neither are many of the things we train for.

This is a legitimate issue, especially in DR, which is decidedly local, especially if you're talking CERT.

A CAP's CC's first and foremost duty is to to building and maintaining his unit's readiness. I've heard CCs say things like "I don't mind if members graduate to another service."
Well I sure do.

[Eclipse]

Suffice to say this is a topic we are discussing at the staff level right now, with hopes to coming to some sort of reasonable conclusion.

One Commander I spoke with commented that there is no reason CAP needs to be involved in these types of situations.  Since filling sandbags
takes no particular skill or equipment, why even involve the organization, officially?  There's no reason members can't simply go on their own recognizance
in street cloths unbeholden to CAP.

Frankly we offer little in this realm, specifically, beyond a call list and a potential labor pool, and the need to get a mission number, etc., just delays our response.

[Larry Mangum]

CAPR 60-3 states that cap members participating in a CAP sanctioned mission must stay under the control of a CAP IC.  This is problematic when dealing with CERT as CERT is a local community response and not a necessarily a CAP controlled response. How do I as an IC control CAP's resources, if I am not even aware of the taskings they are given? Eclispse, is correct in stating that we need to look into how we respond to DR missions in more detail. Especially since those types of mission are more likely to occurr in our future than traditional SAR.

[Jaison009]

They have all but quit training/offering Train the Trainer. Most of the existing CERT instructors are no longer teaching. 

in re: CERT

I've a CERT qualification, and have done the course a few times.  During the last time, the instructor of the local EMA said that FEMA was eliminating the CERT courses.  Anyone else have confirmation of this?

[Jaison009]

I do agree with this point; however, it is hard to identify the return on investment (ROI) for preparedness which makes it hard to spend the money. CERT is also abused as a funding source for stuff an agency could not acquire otherwise. 

in re: CERT

I've a CERT qualification, and have done the course a few times.  During the last time, the instructor of the local EMA said that FEMA was eliminating the CERT courses.  Anyone else have confirmation of this?

Never heard of it. In my city, we just had a new CERT class graduation ceremony last week.
Even if a local CERT is never deployed, it still has its value as a systematic education to citizens. It is all about being better prepared vs not prepared at all during a disaster.

[Eclipse]

CAPR 60-3 states that cap members participating in a CAP sanctioned mission must stay under the control of a CAP IC.  This is problematic when dealing with CERT as CERT is a local community response and not a necessarily a CAP controlled response. How do I as an IC control CAP's resources, if I am not even aware of the taskings they are given? Eclispse, is correct in stating that we need to look into how we respond to DR missions in more detail. Especially since those types of mission are more likely to occurr in our future than traditional SAR.

Well, from that angle, CAP members are always under the auspices and command of a CAP IC.  That doesn't mean we are >the< IC, but we never deploy people
without a mission number, etc., which means they always have at least on-paper oversight.

[Jaison009]

Aside from ICS 100, 200, 700, 800, IS-244.b: Developing and Managing Volunteers, and IS-288: Role of Voluntary Agencies in Emergency Management; on the job training for specific purposes by a specific agency usually covers anything else. I don't think there is a lot of additional training we need to require to get in the DR realm. 

The thing with CERT I see as an issue is that we have to get it through an outside agency. Its not a 2 hour course. Its around 30-ish total IIRC. Most members are already busy with their CAP duties and life in general, so taking the time to do an additional 5-6 week course can be problematic.

I could see us using the basic CERT curriculum and developing our own DR3 type of qual. We could probably eliminate some of their coursework, too, as it would be redundant and/or not within CAP's scope anyway.

My former Group CC made another good point a few years ago about being both CERT & CAP: which group take priority? If you're going to be part of the local CERT group, and something comes up that both CAP & CERT might be needed, where do you go? Both organizations are counting on you. I know that the probability isn't very high that this could happen, but neither are many of the things we train for.

[Jaison009]

I think this takes away from the contributions that CAP has made in disaster relief to major relief such as Katrina, Sandy, etc. By having CAP represented it shows the versatility of CAP, its members, and it also provides opportunities for both cadets and seniors to be involved real world. This may be the only way that our cadets could be involved (many agencies have no youth programs or opportunities). There are many ways our members can be used as part of a credible, credentialed, trained organization (known to local, state, fed organizations ahead of time), whereas as an individual spontaneous volunteer may never participate. By developing a DR role it also covers our members with insurance should they be injured.   

Suffice to say this is a topic we are discussing at the staff level right now, with hopes to coming to some sort of reasonable conclusion.

One Commander I spoke with commented that there is no reason CAP needs to be involved in these types of situations.  Since filling sandbags
takes no particular skill or equipment, why even involve the organization, officially?  There's no reason members can't simply go on their own recognizance
in street cloths unbeholden to CAP.

Frankly we offer little in this realm, specifically, beyond a call list and a potential labor pool, and the need to get a mission number, etc., just delays our response.

[Eclipse]

I would say the training would need to be offline, practical assessments of a member's ability to remain calm and work in "other-than-normal stress" environments.
They should also include some minimal gear such as uniform, food / water, cell phone / radio, gloves, boots, etc., etc.

Again, self-sufficiency and not becoming a mission liability being the key.

[Walkman]

I would say the training would need to be offline, practical assessments of a member's ability to remain calm and work in "other-than-normal stress" environments.
They should also include some minimal gear such as uniform, food / water, cell phone / radio, gloves, boots, etc., etc.

Again, self-sufficiency and not becoming a mission liability being the key.

Totally agree.

One Commander I spoke with commented that there is no reason CAP needs to be involved in these types of situations.  Since filling sandbags takes no particular skill or equipment, why even involve the organization, officially?  There's no reason members can't simply go on their own recognizance in street cloths unbeholden to CAP.

Frankly we offer little in this realm, specifically, beyond a call list and a potential labor pool, and the need to get a mission number, etc., just delays our response.

I think a potential labor pool can be a huge assets and shouldn't be dismissed lightly. I do agree that some members wouldn't be suited for some of these ops, but I think most EMs would welcome a group of volunteers like us over your citizen-at-large showing up.

There are some outside benefits for showing up as a group in uniform as well.

Who are you guys?
   We're Civil Air Patrol Squadron 007.
What's that?
   We're the Official Auxiliary of the USAF...elevator speech.
That's cool, can I join?

The other though that keeps running in my mind about this subject is not just showing up at an event, but the importance of becoming integrated into the area EMA community. We should be training with these other agencies during their drills. Back to the CERT thing: I attended a local CERT group meeting once as an ESTO just to see how my unit could interact with them. They had a comms exercise that night and sitting in the ops center, I could tell they really needed help on how to use radios. We could come in as guest trainers for things like that as well.

Hey Billy, what did you do yesterday?
I got to play an injured earthquake victim while the Fire Department and Police Force practice some emergency drills.

We see that in some areas, UDF and ground ops are becoming fewer and farther between, IMO anything we can do to keep our ground pounders active and involved in real world work is a plus.

[Jaison009]

Agree 100%. A well trained and credentialed labor force is of extreme value. As a former EM I was able to apply an agency's volunteer hours (During the Christmas winter storm, the state of AR used our ARC services and applied over 1,000 man hours @ $ 16.77/hr  http://www.independentsector.org/volunteer_time. This monetary amount was able to be counted towards the state's 25% match of the cost of the disaster. In the grand scheme of a multi million dollar disaster $16,770 may not seem like a lot; however it was money the state did not have to pay. CAP could be providing the exact same kind of contribution to political jurisdictions all around the US. I agree 100% about offering subject matter expertise to outside groups and I see a tremendous amount of potential for DR in ES. We most likely have hundreds to thousands of GT trained members who do not get to use their skill often enough. This is a way for real world experience, exposure, etc as we know disasters are going to happen regularly-espec. natural disasters.

CAP is what started me down the path of becoming a SARTECH, Emergency Trauma Tech, State Vol FF, EMT-B, Firefighter I and II, Paramedic, EM Director, and into my position as a Red Cross Disaster Manager. My time as a Cadet and performing ES and SAR started it for me. I think this kind of experience opens the door and provides a chance for cadets to experience a variety of opportunity and for some, the start of a professional career.   



[/quote]

I think a potential labor pool can be a huge assets and shouldn't be dismissed lightly. I do agree that some members wouldn't be suited for some of these ops, but I think most EMs would welcome a group of volunteers like us over your citizen-at-large showing up.

There are some outside benefits for showing up as a group in uniform as well.

Who are you guys?
   We're Civil Air Patrol Squadron 007.
What's that?
   We're the Official Auxiliary of the USAF...elevator speech.
That's cool, can I join?

The other though that keeps running in my mind about this subject is not just showing up at an event, but the importance of becoming integrated into the area EMA community. We should be training with these other agencies during their drills. Back to the CERT thing: I attended a local CERT group meeting once as an ESTO just to see how my unit could interact with them. They had a comms exercise that night and sitting in the ops center, I could tell they really needed help on how to use radios. We could come in as guest trainers for things like that as well.

Hey Billy, what did you do yesterday?
I got to play an injured earthquake victim while the Fire Department and Police Force practice some emergency drills.

We see that in some areas, UDF and ground ops are becoming fewer and farther between, IMO anything we can do to keep our ground pounders active and involved in real world work is a plus.
[/quote]

[Eclipse]

Agree 100%. A well trained and credentialed labor force is of extreme value.

No way to argue with that, but the duty has to considered.  In this case, completely unskilled vigilanteers are generally used, with no issues, and to service their own neighborhoods and towns.

In a lot of missing persons searches, local authorities are perfectly happy to yell out the window for people to come and tromp all over the evidence when they are trying to find someone.

As to funds, there's a lot of reason I want to get CAP more involved systematically with DR, but whether a customer can use our volunteer time to get a grant for themselves, while our people have to pay for their own gas, isn't even on the radar.

[Jaison009]

CAP could do much more than unskilled though. You mentioned PODs earlier. As you know there is a lot of issues with setting up, securing, maintaining, running, and breaking down PODs. If CAP was taught how to run a POD and maintained a relationship with the EM, this could be an easy mission. It also provides credibility with local gvmt. If I was an EM and instead of having to continually trained new people to do PODs, I tasked it to a local trained and credentialed agency (who maintains training, exercises with locals, etc, etc) then when it is time to open a POD, I call the local group and it gets done with a phone call is this not better than unsolicited and untrained volunteers? In some areas CERT has specific missions like running sign in tables, helping with staging, setting up media tents, etc. Why could CAP not fill specific missions and train for those? Those are the kind of niches CAP could fill and be skilled in. We could work with local ARES and RACES groups to be part of the communications infrastructure. We could work with ARC, Salvation Army, Southern Baptist, Mennonites, Mormons, Methodist, Childrens Disaster Service, Tzu Chi,  Jewish Disaster Relief, National Guard, etc and help provide and augment services.

I agree 100% about people not seeking trained searchers and destroying the evidence. Is CAP a primary SAR agency in your area? Here in AR they are not. Many counties have their own teams and CAP is not even part of the question and rarely mentioned. In a rapid needs assessment class I took this year, I had to explain how CAP could be used and several made comments such as "are they still around" "what is CAP" "Do I have one of those near me". I have been part of some major searches where CAP was never called or asked to play. In fact they brought in outside resources and mounted patrols. I think to some degree this is due to our lack of exposure and the fact that we do not work with local and state resources enough. We have a niche with DF/UDF as most teams do not have a clue about it. When it comes to true SAR I think we could harder to be a resource than we do.

As for funding, I was not refering to a grant rather to a federal disaster declaration where states and counties are left with 25% of the total disaster cost paid for through budgets from income for services and local and state taxes (which our members also pay). At the same time CAP could seek reimbursement from the federal government through the disaster declaration process (local EM does this) for their member's services, equipment used, etc. DRs could also be assigned USAF mission #s to help with funding. 

I don't have the answers but I know CAP could add real value in the DR realm. We fail to realize the value we could provide. Even our DR ribbon requirements are impossible for members to earn due to the fact that the ARC does not offer several of the classes required (nor have they for several years) and most will never participate in a Pres Disaster Dec.

Agree 100%. A well trained and credentialed labor force is of extreme value.

No way to argue with that, but the duty has to considered.  In this case, completely unskilled vigilanteers are generally used, with no issues, and to service their own neighborhoods and towns.

In a lot of missing persons searches, local authorities are perfectly happy to yell out the window for people to come and tromp all over the evidence when they are trying to find someone.

As to funds, there's a lot of reason I want to get CAP more involved systematically with DR, but whether a customer can use our volunteer time to get a grant for themselves, while our people have to pay for their own gas, isn't even on the radar.

[Eclipse]

DRs could also be assigned USAF mission #s to help with funding.

Could, in theory, but I have yet to see it happen.  Everything I have ever been involved in DR-wise has been self or customer funded, which frankly
is probably appropriate. 

. Even our DR ribbon requirements are impossible for members to earn due to the fact that the ARC does not offer several of the classes required (nor have they for several years) and most will never participate in a Pres Disaster Dec.

These days Potus-Declared disasters are pretty common.  I have 3 DR-V's, my Assistant ESO has at least 5.