DR Doctrine, and lack thereof

[lordmonar]

And these are the hazards that he is likely to encounter while sandbagging?

You keep bringing up the sandbagging example, but that's not the problem. The fact remains that our current National CAP policy does not address DR responses or training adequately.

Let's use your example in a different setting. Sandbagging is needed in a flooded area. There are power lines down. There is damaged property and injured people all around... You get the picture. Since there's no requirement from National to use GTM personnel, anyone with a GES should be able to respond adequately in this hazardous environment, right? I think we can see that in this particular scenario (which goes beyond just sandbagging and handing out sandwiches and water), GES may not be enough training.

GTM1 May not be enough training.

If it is too dangerous or the task is outside our ability to do it......we don't do it. 

Now let's say the IC uses his/her judgment and decides to use personnel with GTM3 instead, which is technically not required. GTM3 personnel, while most likely better prepared than those with just GES, will not necessarily have all the skills or knowledge related to DR responses, since DR is not part of their training curriculum. Specialized DR training and a corresponding qualification could prove quite useful for those responses that go beyond just putting sand in a bag or handing out water.

Got no problem with that....in fact if you read back to my posts you will see that that is exactly in line with what I have been saying all alonge.

This whole thread started because one Eclipse disagreed with his Wing Commander's assessment of the DR call out in his wing.   The problem here is that Person X wants to impose his personal standard to ALL situations via regulations and doctrine instead of letting the leaders on the scene make the call.

We may not see eye to eye on how to approach this, but at least we can agree that we want to have personnel able to respond to a disaster, provide a valuable service and do it safely. At the end, our membership is our most valuable asset and we want to make sure we provide them with the tools they need to accomplish the mission successfully, without becoming themselves victims or liabilities. Cheers!

[bflynn]

Let's use your example in a different setting. Sandbagging is needed in a flooded area. There are power lines down. There is damaged property and injured people all around... You get the picture. Since there's no requirement from National to use GTM personnel, anyone with a GES should be able to respond adequately in this hazardous environment, right? I think we can see that in this particular scenario (which goes beyond just sandbagging and handing out sandwiches and water), GES may not be enough training.

So, there are live power lines, damaged property and hurt people and we're going in to do...what?  We're not going to get called in those situations, that isn't a CAP environment.  If we are dispatched to that, then shame on the IC for dispatching teams without understanding the environment they might find.

If we were asked to do something simple in the GES realm and showed up to find a disaster with live power lines, damaged property and hurt people, I hope the team would improvise and response to the immediate need...just like any other citizen should.  And that as a part of that, the senior members in charge would make a decision about whether or not they think it could be done safely, consulting with the dispatching group as necessary.  The fact is, CAP or no CAP, if you show up and find people hurt, you have a humanitarian duty to render what aid you can, subject to reasonable safety precautions. 

I can't begin to imagine the moral and PR damage if a CAP pulled out of an area because it was too dangerous and left injured people behind. 

[lordmonar]

And these are the hazards that he is likely to encounter while sandbagging?

You keep bringing up the sandbagging example, but that's not the problem. The fact remains that our current National CAP policy does not address DR responses or training adequately.

Let's use your example in a different setting. Sandbagging is needed in a flooded area. There are power lines down. There is damaged property and injured people all around...

...

Specialized DR training and a corresponding qualification could prove quite useful for those responses that go beyond just putting sand in a bag or handing out water.

Actually, what would be most useful is a Safety Officer, because that's where the go/no go decision is going to come from if we have power lines on the ground. The best thing is, we already have that.

NO.....Safety Officer's advise the commander.....they don't make decisions.

Sorry.....you touched one of my hot buttons.

Now here's my response, have you ever been on an actual ground DR mission? I've been on several, ranging from flooding to tornadoes (meaning downed power lines and injured people). Do you want to know what the GTM trained CAP personnel like myself were doing when the call for warm bodies went out during the initial phase, directing ARC volunteers in making sandwiches, directing people to the shelter, and similar non-hazardous items. And what were we doing during the aftermath might you ask, damage assessment for Red Cross assistance, managing a shelter, driving around passing out water, and recruiting. None of that was covered by GTM training, and none of it was hazardous. We didn't do the hazardous stuff because there was a CAP IC who used his head and said we don't need to be plucking people out of a fast moving river, but we can still assist even if we don't have a DR qual.

[lordmonar]

A GTM3 should know to never put his fingers into the mouth of someone having a seizure because they have had first aid training. A GTM3 know which natural hazards to avoid. A GTM3 knows what to expect to some degree when walking up to a crash site and has training about what should be done in the event of a find, etc. While I don't think it fully prepares them for the worst case scenario it is something.

And these are the hazards that he is likely to encounter while sandbagging?

Basic first aid due to overexertion/pre-existing conditions, knowing which snakes, stinging insects and other wildlife live in your area and how to avoid them and knowing what to do in the event that someone who drowned up-stream is floating past in the body of water along which you are sandbagging? Yeah I would say those are some of the things we should be prepping for in sandbagging operations.

Well then since we are planning for all eventualities.....we need to.....xyz.    You can play that game all day for all specilties to the point where we can't go out the door.

[Eclipse]

If we were asked to do something simple in the GES realm and showed up to find a disaster with live power lines, damaged property and hurt people, I hope the team would improvise and response to the immediate need...just like any other citizen should.  And that as a part of that, the senior members in charge would make a decision about whether or not they think it could be done safely, consulting with the dispatching group as necessary.  The fact is, CAP or no CAP, if you show up and find people hurt, you have a humanitarian duty to render what aid you can, subject to reasonable safety precautions. 

No, if we roll up to something out of scope, we let the IC know and leave immediately.

Period.

I can't begin to imagine the moral and PR damage if a CAP pulled out of an area because it was too dangerous and left injured people behind.

I can't begin to imagine the moral and PR damage to CAP if one of our people gets hurt, especially a cadet, being involved in a situation where they
didn't belong to start with.

[JeffDG]

NO.....Safety Officer's advise the commander.....they don't make decisions.

Sorry.....you touched one of my hot buttons.

Well...anyone, including the MSO, can put a halt to unsafe situations.  It's their job to look for hazards, and if an MSO wastes his time finding and briefing an IC before putting a stop to something that's unsafe, shame on him.

[oldtimer]

With all this talk about training how many have taken advantage of the safety power point presentations in e-services. Although basic in material they cover Downed power lines, Hurricane preparedness, Flooding, winter driving, wind chill, lightning safety to name a few. If a unit would use these presentations and quizzes it would give their members some information on safety hazards they may encounter on DR missions and what safety measures and risk controls they should be aware of. If a unit was proactive they could show the appropriate presentation when seasons change and different weather related disasters may occur.

[Luis R. Ramos]

Ha!

My feeling about the Safety Officer in a previous unit was that he always, but always geared his presentations to flying, taxing, and airplane-related topics. Never to ground team-practical stuff like that which you are suggesting. Several times I made that comment to him. It was a lot of arguing to get him to do a safety presentation on cold and hot weather injuries. He did it but this "disrupted his master briefing schedule." And when I mentioned this to my squadron commander, he said I had to enlist the help of the two deputy commanders to have him change his briefings...

Flyer

[jeders]

NO.....Safety Officer's advise the commander.....they don't make decisions.

Sorry.....you touched one of my hot buttons.

Sorry, that's what happens when I type faster than I think. What I meant to say is that the go/no go decision is going to be coming from the command section, of which the safety officer is a part, and more specifically from the IC. However, in many incidents that are just starting out, the IC is the safety officer, as well as every other base staff position.

If we are given a situation with multiple large hazards, then the MSO is going to be responsible for, or assist in, creating a plan to mitigate the risks. That plan may include not sending CAP personnel into an area with downed live electrical lines until the hazard is taken care of.

[Storm Chaser]

Ha!

My feeling about the Safety Officer in a previous unit was that he always, but always geared his presentations to flying, taxing, and airplane-related topics. Never to ground team-practical stuff like that which you are suggesting. Several times I made that comment to him. It was a lot of arguing to get him to do a safety presentation on cold and hot weather injuries. He did it but this "disrupted his master briefing schedule." And when I mentioned this to my squadron commander, he said I had to enlist the help of the two deputy commanders to have him change his briefings...

Flyer

In my squadron, we have two safety education presentations a month: one for cadets and one for senior members. The one for senior members, at least when I do it, usually has two topics: one focused on ground and the other on flight safety. Both ground and flight safety education are necessary and relevant to our missions.

[bflynn]

If we were asked to do something simple in the GES realm and showed up to find a disaster with live power lines, damaged property and hurt people, I hope the team would improvise and response to the immediate need...just like any other citizen should.  And that as a part of that, the senior members in charge would make a decision about whether or not they think it could be done safely, consulting with the dispatching group as necessary.  The fact is, CAP or no CAP, if you show up and find people hurt, you have a humanitarian duty to render what aid you can, subject to reasonable safety precautions. 

No, if we roll up to something out of scope, we let the IC know and leave immediately.

Period.

I can't begin to imagine the moral and PR damage if a CAP pulled out of an area because it was too dangerous and left injured people behind.

I can't begin to imagine the moral and PR damage to CAP if one of our people gets hurt, especially a cadet, being involved in a situation where they
didn't belong to start with.

So if you show up and it isn't exactly what you expect, you leave?  What if there are no downed power lines or damage, just some injured people?  Do you say "this is out of scope, we can't do this, if someone gets hurt, we're in trouble?  CYA at the expense of some else's?" 

I really hope not.  I really, really hope every member of this organization has more dedication and moral fiber than that.

You handle it how you handle.  Period.  I'm going to take my shirt off and get to work.

[Eclipse]

You handle it how you handle.  Period.  I'm going to take my shirt off and get to work.

You're free to do whatever you like as a private citizen, as a CAP member who values your membership, you have a tight lane in regards to what you are allowed to do in uniform,
as an instrumentality of the Federal Government.

And from a philosophical perspective, you need to pick an angle - either its "no time for back up, shoulder roll in", or it's a "low-tempo operation with low risk".

[bflynn]

I'm from the government, I'm not allowed to help.

Roger.

[lordmonar]

I can't begin to imagine the moral and PR damage to CAP if one of our people gets hurt, especially a cadet, being involved in a situation where they
didn't belong to start with.

They are called heros.

[lordmonar]

NO.....Safety Officer's advise the commander.....they don't make decisions.

Sorry.....you touched one of my hot buttons.

Well...anyone, including the MSO, can put a halt to unsafe situations.  It's their job to look for hazards, and if an MSO wastes his time finding and briefing an IC before putting a stop to something that's unsafe, shame on him.

Different situations.
Yes anyone on the spot can see a danger and say Knock It Off......but in now way shape or form should the safety officer be "making the call".
The IC, The OSC, the AOBD/GBD, the GTL/PIC....yes.....but not the Safety Officer.  He advises the command staff.....he is NOT in the chain of command.

[Eclipse]

They are called heros.

I believe the term you are looking for is "casualties".  Also, "former members" and "Plaintiff" may also be appropriate.

Seriously, which CAP are you in where you just run out the door and do "whatever" with no regulations or rules?
We have safety presentations and rules on how to back up a vehicle, but we're just going to do "whatever" because of some misguided idea that
while we can't provide medical care we can provide "ALL OTHER?"

[Storm Chaser]

This discussion is going nowhere. So DR training is not needed...ever...under no circumstances. Checked. Developing a national standardized training curriculum and qualification for DR is a waste of time. Checked. And since anyone with no training what so ever can fill sandbags and give out water, then why even bother requiring our members to do GES? Forget training! Let's just get everyone together, roll up our sleeves and get to work! 

DISCLAIMER: This post makes extensive use of sarcasm.

[lordmonar]

They are called heros.

I believe the term you are looking for is "casualties".  Also, "former members" and "Plaintiff" may also be appropriate.

Seriously, which CAP are you in where you just run out the door and do "whatever" with no regulations or rules?
We have safety presentations and rules on how to back up a vehicle, but we're just going to do "whatever" because of some misguided idea that
while we can't provide medical care we can provide "ALL OTHER?"

What CAP are you in?  Where you are too afraid to commit to anything becasue you are too afraid of getting sued or getting bad PR.

We are specficially talking about a situation where there are no rules.
We are talking about being a leader and getting CAP's mission of helping our community, state and nation in times of need.

If we follow your philosophy.....it's just "thanks for calling....but we don't do that sort of thing." because we have no SQRT for it.

That is one of the reasons why no one calls us for us.....we keep telling them no.

If we are in the decision making chain....by all means use your good judgment based on the situation at hand......because it is impossible to write regulaitons that cover everything.

But keep the true goal of the organisation in mind at all time.

[Jaison009]

I see this thread heading to a lock...

[bflynn]

We are specficially talking about a situation where there are no rules.
We are talking about being a leader and getting CAP's mission of helping our community, state and nation in times of need.

If it costs me my CAP membership in order to help someone, I'd be OK with that.  I'd rather it not happen, but I can live with getting kicked out of CAP - it would be a hugh sign that CAP is not an organization that shares my values.  I would have a hard time living with knowing that someone had died because I valued my CAP membership too much to risk it.  If I ever get to that point, I hope I have the integrity to quit first.

For now - I can say that if I arrive at a scene to hand out sandwiches and learn that a tornado hit 2 minutes before, I'll try to call the IC and clarify our mission.  We will take every safety precaution we can, but we're in an emergency situation.  Every member should be empowered to respond both to emergency conditions as well as unexpected conditions encountered during any mission.