Physical requirements for CAP ground teams

[RiverAux]

As discussed in the NIMS thread a while back, it seems likely that as part of the NIMS requirements CAP ground team members will begin to have to meet some sort of physical test to be certified under NIMS.  The SAR job titles document seems to give a lot of leeway in this area, but does give a few examples of what would probably count from existing programs.  I looked these up to see the sort of thing that CAP might institute

Colorado Wilderness SAR standards: 
Type 1:  Walk 3 miles over level terrain in 60 minutes with 25 lb pack.
Type 2&3: Walk 2 miles over level terrain in 40 minutes with 25 lb pack

NWCG Ardurous Pack Test: 3 miles with 45 lb pack in 45 minutes.

What percent of ucrrent CAP ground team members do you think would probably fail tests along those lines? 

[JohnKachenmeister]

I could do the first two, but not the "Arduous" one.

[Chris Jacobs]

I am a ground team member and i know that i can do the 3 miles in 45 minuets.  i am going to encourag the rest of the GT cadets in my squadron to be able to do the same.

[Major Lord]

As discussed in the NIMS thread a while back, it seems likely that as part of the NIMS requirements CAP ground team members will begin to have to meet some sort of physical test to be certified under NIMS.  The SAR job titles document seems to give a lot of leeway in this area, but does give a few examples of what would probably count from existing programs.  I looked these up to see the sort of thing that CAP might institute

Colorado Wilderness SAR standards: 
Type 1:  Walk 3 miles over level terrain in 60 minutes with 25 lb pack.
Type 2&3: Walk 2 miles over level terrain in 40 minutes with 25 lb pack

NWCG Ardurous Pack Test: 3 miles with 45 lb pack in 45 minutes.

What percent of ucrrent CAP ground team members do you think would probably fail tests along those lines? 

Most of the Cadets and 3 or 4 Seniors!

[RiverAux]

I suspect that most cadets will be able to meet the requirements since PT is part of their regular program. 

[Chris Jacobs]

i think most cadets could probably pass the 1,2, and 3 levels but i think you would be surprised how few could pass the ardurous.

[arajca]

The NWCG Arduous test is used for wildland firefighters who are actually on the fire lines or directly attacking the fire.

[sardak]

The NWCG pack tests require walking at 4 MPH.  If you run or jog and are caught, you fail the test.  Typical walking speed on flat ground is 2.5 to 3 MPH.

NWCG also has ratings of moderate (2 miles, 30 minutes, 25 pound pack), light (1 mile, 16 minutes, no pack) and none (self explanatory - you pass if you don't do anything). 

Each wildland fire rating has one of these fitness ratings.  The rating is based on what the position is expected to do on a wildland fire incident.

Type III, IV and V ICs have to pass the arduous test.  Type I and II require none.
Safety officers and operations section chiefs have to pass moderate.
Air ops branch directors and plans sections chief are none.
Firefighters, strike team and task force leaders, as expected, require arduous.

The Colorado WSAR requirements were developed after much discussion, and were accepted only grudingly by some.  The main alternate position was using the NWCG requirements. 

Mike

[DNall]

See, this is where you get so much more expertise than I have. That's outstanding. As I understand it for WSAR you have to pass a certain level based on the incident level you're prepared to respond to.

There's also a page on the website that indicates FEMA is moving toward being the central credentialing agency. You submit a package showing you meet everything for the rating, FEMA issues you a card indicating that rating - probably a scanable thing w/ lots of data on it. Seems lik ehtis is in the very early stage & won't be happening for some itme. Just a heads up though that we reinforces we can't keep playing our own game and saying we are qual'd.

I'm glad to see a PFT for GTM. I don't know enough about the tests to comment, but based on the amount rucking I do already I don't think it'd be an issue. It will be a retention issue though. There's no way around it & you should get to a place where you can accept that cause we don't have a choice.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Type 2 and 3 are an average walking speed of 3 mph.  I know.  I do 1.5 - 2 miles 4 days a week on my treadmill.

[RiverAux]

As far as I can tell, nothing specific has come out of DHS regarding the fitness standards for SAR teams.  I still think they're leaving it up to the state or relevant agency, but in a quick look at some of the compliance instructions for states, didn't see anything on this topic in particular.  Obviously, CAP hasn't made any moves yet to implement any sort of fitness standards for GTMs.

Have any of you heard anything about your state government working on SAR-related fitness standards that your Wing might have to follow to participate in state-backed SAR missions? 

[Eclipse]

Instituting any physical requirements for ground teams beyond respiration and gravitational attraction would simply reduce the number of ground team members we have even further or produce lot of people participating "illegally".

I understand the intent with NIMS compliance, increased standards, and a general "raising of the bar". In most cases I support the idea conceptually, if not in all practices, but the reality is that we are not turning members away at the door, we have issues today just getting people to function at the standards we already have, and frankly, the majority of states never provide enough mission taskings in environments that require more ability than the average slacker suburbanite can handle.

You start raising the bar without raising the return, and we'll be looking at 57,000 members like THAT was the good old days.  There's only so much and so far members will go on the low ROI for their time before they say "enough".

The majority of our missions, even the longer-term, more aggressive ones, are done in vehicle-mounted fashion, or a less than brisk walk, the latter is self-limiting for the most part.

States with more aggressive SAR needs and agreements (i.e. desert climates where CAP is a legit responder agency) are free today to write local supplements to the ES requirements.

Remember, CAP is not the "mini-military" or even a first-responder agency, we are a secondary and tertiary asset tasked with providing fill-in and backup support to other agencies so the paid guys can do their jobs more effectively.  If we wore that hat more often and more proudly, we'd all be better off (and probably a lot busier).

[RiverAux]

Yep, no matter what type of test it is or how easy it is to pass we will lose some qualified GT members.  In regards to some members, thats probably a good thing for CAP and for them, while for others it would be questionable.  But, like with the other NIMS standards, its something CAP is going to have to get with whether we like it or not.  But, unlike the others, we will probably be able to set our own standards unless you're in a state that is going to get real aggressive about it. 

[lordmonar]

What NIMS standard?

I have read the draft typing standards....and they mention that the agency with jurisdiction may set Physical and medical standards....

So....until an agency of juridisciton says......"you must do 500 push ups to be able to help us with this SAR", CAP is meeting the standards.

[RiverAux]

Did I say there were specific standards approved anywhere?  No. This thread started with examples of some physical standards used by groups cited as examples in the NIMS documents. 

But, it is clear that at some point we're going to have to meet some standards.

Personally, I think that the "Authority Having Jurisdiction" language is a little unclear, especially in how it might apply to CAP.  You could read it to say that CAP could set its own standards or (and more likely) that each state could set its own.  But, you might also read it to say that any government agency, including city or county, could set its own standards.  This could result in a pretty big hodgepodge of standards that would sort of defeat the purpose.   

[Short Field]

But, like with the other NIMS standards, its something CAP is going to have to get with whether we like it or not.  

The other NIMS standards are approved and we are implementing them.

[RiverAux]

Actually, we're implementing SOME of them -- we're not making all of the mission staff recommended by NIMS take the 300-400 courses (but thats for a different thread). 

[lordmonar]

I thought that we are going to make all the recommended staff positions take 300-400...but we are going to phase it in over time.

As it is...we are going to be hard pressed to get the IC and other top 3 postions all compliant as it is.   300-400 is a week long endevor that may not fit into a lot of peoples schedule.

[_]

300-400 is a week long endevor that may not fit into a lot of peoples schedule.

It doesn't have to be.  I took ICS 300 in a class taught by CAP members over 2 weekends.  The weekends were spread out amongst 2 months so the whole process wasn't very encumbering in terms of time taken.

Back to the subject of physical standards.  I am in favor of some form of standards.  If nothing else you need a standard to make sure someone doesn't have a heart attack just walking up a hill.  I am not a fit man by any means so don't think this is coming from a triathlete.  In the civilian team I'm a member of we are required to do the 2 miles in 40 minutes with our pack on.  I did it on rolling terrain with 10 minutes to spare.  That kind of standard is not overly cumbersome.

[davedove]

Back to the subject of physical standards.  I am in favor of some form of standards.  If nothing else you need a standard to make sure someone doesn't have a heart attack just walking up a hill.  I am not a fit man by any means so don't think this is coming from a triathlete.  In the civilian team I'm a member of we are required to do the 2 miles in 40 minutes with our pack on.  I did it on rolling terrain with 10 minutes to spare.  That kind of standard is not overly cumbersome.

I could go along with a standard like that, maybe not those exact numbers, but something similar.  For instance, perhaps 2 miles in 40 minutes with 24 hour gear.  I'm a good sized guy too, but I wouldn't have any problem with that standard.

I don't think we need a super tough standard with full 72 hour gear or anything.  After all, we are CAP, not the infantry.