Mixed messages about medical services

[coolkites]

I felt that I had to post something on this seeing as I'm a member of both organizations. I work as a lifeguard and as an assistant to the nurse at a Boy Scout camp in Oregon. I can tell you that most Boy scouts are going to have more medical experience and training when compared to cadets (especially since as pointed out earlier neither of the responding cadets had any medical qualifications. looking at this line out of the article


Under the nurse's guidance, the cadets were allowed to take more medical information, and they discovered a history of hypertension and diabetes. Asked by the nurse, "What should you do next?" they responded without prompting: "Call 911 for emergency medical help."

First off "Discovered"!!!! like oh my gosh we discovered!!! 
it seems like a situation where the Nurse was just letting the cadets play along and think that they where actually doing something important. Even if CAP has the write or authority to provide roaming safety patrols shouldn't they have some sort of medical training? Looks to me like a case of cadets and seniors wanting to feel important. The article writes them up like the where PJs jumping out of helos in order to save this persons life when in all actuality they where un-trained cadets asking basic questions and applying ice packs under the supervision of a nurse. Huge exaggeration and I agree completely with those who said they where disappointed to see Volunteer publish this. 

[Eclipse]

I can tell you that most Boy scouts are going to have more medical experience and training when compared to cadets

By what measure?

[cap235629]

I can tell you that most Boy scouts are going to have more medical experience and training when compared to cadets

By what measure?

Because the first aid they are required to know for advancement to First Class Scout is more advanced than the Basic First Aid class taught by the Red Cross. If they actually have the First Aid Merit badge, they have even more training.

[davidsinn]

I can tell you that most Boy scouts are going to have more medical experience and training when compared to cadets

By what measure?

Because the first aid they are required to know for advancement to First Class Scout is more advanced than the Basic First Aid class taught by the Red Cross.

Not by a long shot.

If they actually have the First Aid Merit badge, they have even more training.

Now we are talking roughly equivalent training. But I'd rather have a cadet with an ARC card than a scout any day because I can be reasonably sure of the quality of the ARC training. I know exactly what kind of first aid training scouts get.

[cap235629]

I can tell you that most Boy scouts are going to have more medical experience and training when compared to cadets

By what measure?

Because the first aid they are required to know for advancement to First Class Scout is more advanced than the Basic First Aid class taught by the Red Cross.

Not by a long shot.

If they actually have the First Aid Merit badge, they have even more training.

Now we are talking roughly equivalent training. But I'd rather have a cadet with an ARC card than a scout any day because I can be reasonably sure of the quality of the ARC training. I know exactly what kind of first aid training scouts get.

Sorry to burst you bubble Mr. Sinn but I am an ARC instructor.  The first aid requirements for advancement to First Class Scout cover more than Basic First Aid.

I am also a 25 year scouter and have been teaching the First Aid Merit badge for 20.  Over the years, first aid training has been more prevalent in the rank advancement process.

here is just an excerpt:
# Demonstrate bandages for a sprained ankle. and for injuries on the head, the upper arm, and the collarbone.
# Show how to transport by yourself, and with one other person, a person:

    * from a smoke-filled room
    * with a sprained ankle, for at least 25 yards.

# Tell the five most common signals of a heart attack. Explain the steps (procedures) in cardiopulmonary resuscitation (CPR).

[cap235629]

Here is waht they do for second class (which is before 1st, not after for you non scouts)
   1. Show what to do for "hurry" cases of stopped breathing, serious bleeding, and ingested poisoning.
   2. Prepare a personal first aid kit to take with you on a hike.
   3. Demonstrate first aid for the following:
          * Object in the eye
          * Bite of a suspected rabid animal
          * Puncture wounds from a splinter, nail, and fishhook
          * Serious burns (partial thickness, or second degree)
          * Heat exhaustion
          * Shock
          * Heatstroke, dehydration, hypothermia, and hyperventilation

[cap235629]

and before they can advance to 2nd Class, they have to pass the Tenderfoot requirements:

#

   1. Demonstrate how to care for someone who is choking.
   2. Show first aid for the following:
          * Simple cuts and scrapes
          * Blisters on the hand and foot
          * Minor (thermal/heat) burns or scalds (superficial, or first degree)
          * Bites and stings of insects and ticks
          * Venomous snakebite
          * Nosebleed
          * Frostbite and sunburn

[davidsinn]

and before they can advance to 2nd Class, they have to pass the Tenderfoot requirements:

#

   1. Demonstrate how to care for someone who is choking.
   2. Show first aid for the following:
          * Simple cuts and scrapes
          * Blisters on the hand and foot
          * Minor (thermal/heat) burns or scalds (superficial, or first degree)
          * Bites and stings of insects and ticks
          * Venomous snakebite
          * Nosebleed
          * Frostbite and sunburn

Yes I know. I have a scout hand book too. More than one in fact. I also have this little silver bird on a red, white and blue ribbon. At what point does a scout become more knowledgeable than a first aider? We did all of that in my ARC class and then a whole lot more.

[cap235629]

then you didn't take the Basic First Aid Class.  The syllabus does not include half of what I just listed.

[Eclipse]

That's all basic, community level first aid.

Nothing more, nothing less.

[cap235629]

That's all basic, community level first aid.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Yes it is, but the scouts have to know more than what is taught in the ARC Basic First Aid class, that was my whole point.

[davidsinn]

then you didn't take the Basic First Aid Class.  The syllabus does not include half of what I just listed.

I didn't take an advanced course. I have a basic first aid card. I'm also an Eagle Scout. I'll take the cadet with a first aid card over a scout any day of the week.

[JayT]

That's all basic, community level first aid.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Yes it is, but the scouts have to know more than what is taught in the ARC Basic First Aid class, that was my whole point.

Back to the article, the heart of the matter is if you don't have trained, certified, and equiped medical personnal, you're exposing yourself to a huge risk. Scouts or Cadets, it doesn't matter. I was a gung ho basic first aider when I was a cadet....then I took my EMT class and got a job on an ambulance....then my advanced EMT class....and now I start paramedic school in a month.

There's nothing wrong with helping cadets develop an intrest in emergency medicine, but if I rolled up to the scene of a big camp out and had fifty fourteen year olds swarming around someone, I would be in my hot tub with a tasty adult beverage about twelve minutes after the end of that particular tour of duty.

[Eclipse]

That's all basic, community level first aid.

Nothing more, nothing less.

Yes it is, but the scouts have to know more than what is taught in the ARC Basic First Aid class, that was my whole point.

No, the scouts who progress know about the same as our cadets who take the basic class.  I don't know where you're taking ARC/FA, but its nearly identical.

Our cadets not active in ES don't necessarily know anything about first aid, and those who are likely know more than the "average" boy scout.  But to make the assetion that one organization is inherently better trained than the other doesn't fly.

Further, ES is a mandate and a mindset of CAP, it's literally what we do and why a majority of the adults join (either as a whole or in part).  While community service is certainly a part of the BSA its by no means on the level that CAP is involved in ES, or charged by many agencies as a significant resource.

[cap235629]

I don't know where you're taking ARC/FA, but its nearly identical.

I am an ARC INSTRUCTOR.  I TEACH the class.  It is NOT nearly identical.

[Eclipse]

For starters, ARC is not the only FA trainer in the market, I took mine form ASHI, and I can tell you everything above was covered.

Nothing above is earth shattering or beyond basic first aid.

[cap235629]

If you look at my posts, I confined my responses specifically to the ARC Basic First Aid class.  I did not imply that all classes were created equal.  I responded to Mr. Sinn's ascertation that the ARC Basic First Aid class was more in depth than the first aid requirements to advance in Scouting.

[Eclipse]

Whatever, I don't even know what the heck we're arguing about.

CAP and BSA are both worthy organizations with different missions and focus.

I went and looked up the requirements directly, and frankly its probably a wash.

The BSA simply requires demonstration of the skill, no certification required, but demonstration is - they don't care where you figure out a tourniquet, just that you know how to use it.  I also like the fact that FA is required as a matter of course for progression, which means it is more integrated into the fabric of the program.  The odds of ever using
those skills, though, are much lower, and CAP requires a lot of demonstation of actual skills before you can ever get into a real-world mission environment.

Unless, apparently, if you're supporting a BSA activity, in which case all our rules go out the window and any random cadets can go and "render aid".   

[Nathan]

I'm more irked at the article stating that the nurse seemed to think that an emergency situation was a good teach opportunity...

"What do you do next." Call 911... right. If 911 needed to be called, the nurse probably should have done that as soon as the "tightness in the chest" part was mentioned. Not have the cadets ponder the merits of calling 911.

As for the cadets providing the first aid, I don't really have a problem with it. I think it would be far worse publicity for cadets to sit there and watch a woman collapse to the ground without providing some degree of care for the sake of protecting CAP's heiny than to risk screwing up and possibly having to take advantage of Good Samaritan. And since none of the BSA people seemed to intervene in taking care of their leader, I'm going to assume that nobody there had the appropriate training, or was not confident enough to feel the need to relinquish the two cadets of their intervention.

[isuhawkeye]

A point of clarification. 

Are we comparing cadet snuffy to scout snuffy, or we comparing scout snuffy with a cadet who participates in CAP's Emergnecy services mission.  I think there is a difference as First aid and Emergnecy Services training are not requirments of the cadet program.