The Air Combat Command has a requirement for high-fidelity air crew training, including training involving the Predator unmanned air vehicle. Use of the Predator UAV is difficult due to real-world operations and difficulty using a UAV in FAA-controlled air space. Two CAP Cessna 182Q aircraft are being modified with the "Surrogate Predator," an advanced sensor system used to support Air Force "Green Flag" training.
Mission aircraft will be modified. The mission bases for the first "Surrogate Predator" will be at Alexandria, La. The second base will be in North Las Vegas, Nev.
The first acceptance flight for the No. 1 aircraft is scheduled for Sept. 11-12. CAP air crew training will be scheduled during the 3rd week of September. Academic training will be held Sept. 19-20, followed by three days of flight training.
The first "Green Flag" missions are scheduled to be flown during the Oct. 7-20 time frame. "Green Flag" exercises typically involve 11 days of flying, eight hours each day, and at least ten times each year, and includes "hunter-killer" scenarios in which the "Surrogate Predator" starts by surveying targets and providing full-motion video to a brigade combat team.
The CAP will initially start flying five of these days and may be asked to fly on the full 11 days in the future. At present, this work is out-sourced to a private contractor, but by moving the program to the CAP the Air Force can realize substantial cost savings.
Though funding is a challenge being considered by the commander of Air Force North (AFNORTH) there is a need for near real-time imaging and disaster relief for AFNORTH and the Army's battle lab efforts. There is a possible role for the CAP in these, with an ultimate goal of having 20 turret-mounted packages available for use.
This was mentioned at RSC by the CAP-USAF rep, and the next weekend my Wing's commander and staff
received a full briefing on the plans.
It was also mentioned at the NB meeting.
So its real.
A call went out several months ago for volunteers for this program. Aircrew had to have certain prerequisites, but this has been in the works for quite some time.
Quote from: Eclipse on September 06, 2009, 05:37:05 PM
This was mentioned at RSC by the CAP-USAF rep, and the next weekend my Wing's commander and staff
received a full briefing on the plans.
It was also mentioned at the NB meeting.
So its real.
Absolutely.....!
;D ;D ;D ;D
This is going to be a major mission for CAP and will only get larger.
AFNORTH wants to have a real time video capability for homeland security missions in addition to the the two Q models for the SUAV program.
They mentioned at the National Conference that the ones used for the homeland security missions will not have all the bells and whisles theat the SUAV birds will have. But I get the distinct impression that AFNORTH has a lot of top cover missions waiting in the wings for us.
Northcom had wanted to upgrade the Archer systems to make them work. The systems would need sensor modifications for vibration and spectrum addition. Northcom was going to foot the bill for two systems. Upgraded systems are already on UAVs. But having an operator in the plane increases capability.
What happened??
I heard about this several months ago but didn't think it would be a reality. I like the idea and hope we will have funding to make it work for the CAP members.
Quote from: cap235629 on September 06, 2009, 05:51:53 PM
A call went out several months ago for volunteers for this program. Aircrew had to have certain prerequisites,
What prerequisites were being asked for?
Quote from: Mustang on September 07, 2009, 08:13:24 AM
Quote from: cap235629 on September 06, 2009, 05:51:53 PM
A call went out several months ago for volunteers for this program. Aircrew had to have certain prerequisites,
What prerequisites were being asked for?
Pilots - Comm Instrument ASEL with military tactical aircraft experience. Includes, but not necessarily limited to "fast mover" experience. The military tactical aircraft experience requirement may go away after the initial experience. Also, must be CAPF 5 (C-182) & 91 qualified.
Other aircrew - observer qualified. Pilot qualifications preferred (both front seat occupants will need to be pilot qualified)
Some ground personnel as well - usual CAP mission base requirements.
Although the program is not classified, participants must be able to qualify for a secret security clearance.
Participants will need to be able to spend a week at a time at one of the operating bases. Travel to & from, lodging & per diem are paid.
Send word through your CoC to your Wing DO or CC if qualified & interested. Right now the main interest is in members who are geographically close to the operating bases (Alexandria, LA & Las Vegas, NV)
There was a meeting last week just before the Conference. I was supposed to attend (but the major fire in LA prevented my participation). The west coast operation will be handled jointly by CAWG and NVWG. I am the CAWG coordinator and Lt Col Roy Campbell handles it for NVWG.
The ops tempo is rather high and we should get the program up and running out here shortly.
CAWG can't even cover all its AFRCC taskings with any measure of reliability, how is it going to cover this too?
Since this is a high priority by CAP's main bill payer my guess is the AFRCC mission will suffer. The other thought is the pilots participating in the Predator mission may not be the same people flying the CAWG AFRCC missions. You would have to cross referance missions and names to get a clear picture. If the names are the same and personnel are in short supply youo've identified a problem.
If they want a good supply of pilots, I could see them dropping the requirement to have been a military pilot. Either that, or the military pilots will start flying the planes for themselves.
An interesting concept, current active duty military pilots flying CAP aircraft if CAP pilots aren't available. That's not the current program but it wouldn't be a huge leap to get there.
The aircraft are already paid for by the Air Force and so are the pilots, no additional costs for them. It could even add to our membership if that became part of the agreement.
There was a email floating around looking for Observers for this program. The right seat does not require military pilot experience and if you are a pilot, you can upgrade to the left seat after six months. They are also looking for mission base personnel and a backseater to operate the sensor. These are all funded training positions by the AF. Good luck to the senor operator at ever getting out of the backseat. Ops tempo should be at least 10 sorties a week, with a week defined as M-F.
Quote from: Short Field on September 08, 2009, 05:27:33 PMGood luck to the senor operator at ever getting out of the backseat. Ops tempo should be at least 10 sorties a week, with a week defined as M-F.
Why would you want to? That's where the action is. An MP/MO ride on these won't be any different than any other CAP mission.
Quote from: sparks on September 08, 2009, 04:39:27 PM
An interesting concept, current active duty military pilots flying CAP aircraft if CAP pilots aren't available. That's not the current program but it wouldn't be a huge leap to get there.
The aircraft are already paid for by the Air Force and so are the pilots, no additional costs for them. It could even add to our membership if that became part of the agreement.
Actually we were asked not to use AD personnel for this project...even if they were already CAP members. Of course in the future we can use them...but for the start up they want to see if we can do it with out tapping the AD supply.
Our goal is to see to it that there is ALWAYS going to be qualified CAP personnel ready and able to meet the mission requirements.
3 crew members, a sensor ball and its related hardware on a 182? Who did the W&B?
Im kinda following Eclipse here, I think Id rather be the guy operating the gear vs flying trimmed straight and level for hours on end.
If they want to limit it to former military pilots, good luck. This isn't the good old days of CAP. Seems to me that the person where prior military experience would be of least importance would be the pilot.
Quote from: RiverAux on September 08, 2009, 09:14:39 PM
If they want to limit it to former military pilots, good luck. This isn't the good old days of CAP. Seems to me that the person where prior military experience would be of least importance would be the pilot.
Just goes to show you that you don't know everything :D
The purpose of the former AD pilot/Fast mover experince is because these people already understand the military method of deconflicting air space, talking to the JFACS, talking to the airborn controllers, coordinating with the strike packages and dealing military breifing/de-breifing process.
Any pilot can burn circles in the sky but the tricky part is understanding how your section of sky fits in with all the rest and how you see and avoid a fast mover cutting through your airspace with out turning into a ball of flaming wreakage.
Again.....this is for just the initial phase of the operation....once up and running and we start local training it will be open to more pilots including those with out prior military and fast mover experince.
Glad those WWII B-24 pilots in CAP have the skills it takes to do this then.
Quote from: RiverAux on September 09, 2009, 03:43:23 AM
Glad those WWII B-24 pilots in CAP have the skills it takes to do this then.
Since when is a B-24 considered a fast mover?
Quote from: lordmonar on September 09, 2009, 05:11:13 AM
Quote from: RiverAux on September 09, 2009, 03:43:23 AM
Glad those WWII B-24 pilots in CAP have the skills it takes to do this then.
Since when is a B-24 considered a fast mover?
Compared to a C-182, almost anything with more than one engine is a fast mover.
Quote from: WikipediaB-24
Maximum speed: 290 mph (250 kn, 470 km/h)
Cruise speed: 215 mph (187 kn, 346 km/h)
Stall speed: 95 mph (83 kn, 153 km/h)
I can definitely understand. Its the same thought behind law enforcement agencies wanting cops flying their aircraft vs. civilians. Military pilots being able to talk the talk goes along the same lines. Now, like someone said before, once a civilian CAP pilot gets in the mix and gets the nod from his military "mentor" for these missions, things will probably change. Seeing what could be on the horizon if this program is successful I would say anything we can do to hit the ground running is a good idea.
Since I am on the list of CAWG pilots to potentially fly on this mission, I have a little information. I understand that only one of the planes has been converted, so training is going to go on over the next couple of months. The 182 to be stationed at Las Vegas will be flown by NVWG and CAWG crews.
Other than that, not much in the way of info is being passed out. Something about Secret Squirrels.
It's not secret squirel....it is just a stove pipe of information. Even the main project officer is sometimes in the dark on a lot of things...no because of classification just poor communications.
As for aircraft. The first Q model is off or very near the end of the re-firb line and will be delivered very soon. When the second plane is ready NVWG gets the old plane and LAWG gets the new one.
Those of you with prior military are generally more inclined to SUAC, which leaves less room for us to step on...er...leave a bad first impression.
Let the A-Team pave the way on this so we all get a chance to play eventually.
As was mentioned in a previous post, information related to this initiative appears to have been stovepiped to select individuals and organizational elements. Has the NOC issued any specific planning guidance, or operational directives related to the mission? If a forum member has such, and the material has not been directed for restricted dissemination, could I ask for the holder to PM me with the document(s). If not, I'll reach out to Ops at Maxwell looking for the same. -- Regards
That was a very official sounding request.
The informaation is somewhat selective.
We are just getting briefed and all the material has not yet been prepared.
But, from what I have...It will be a lot of fun (think kinda like CAP WWII missions but w/o real bombs). It will be high ops tempo, a week long + of training (we are talking long days) and will take alot of work. This is no slouch mission. Folks must be able to get secret clearances.
It will be a chance to play with the big boys, fast movers and the like. Very high profile.
Smokey -- As someone who works in a TS/SCI environment daily, the use of a term such as "somewhat selective" confuses me. My query arises from personal inquisitiveness and my role as the Wing A5. If you are able to share anything beyond the tantalizing tid-bits that have been posted to the board, I would welcome a PM. -- Thanks
CAP News Release: http://www.capvolunteernow.com/todays_features.cfm/cap_pilots_to_fly_surrogate_predators_to_assist_military?show=news&newsID=5998
There are portions that have not been released and some still under development.
But the news story pretty well sums it up.
I think the key word here is going to be "pilots". Anyone see something for observers or scanners?
Quote from: Gunner C on September 11, 2009, 10:14:28 PM
I think the key word here is going to be "pilots". Anyone see something for observers or scanners?
The right seater is supposed to be a pilot as well (at least for the intial group). The back seater is supposed to be an experinced observer.
The first of the Surrogate Predator aircraft will be arriving at it's new home base in Louisiana later today. Additional work on the Mobile and Fixed mission base locations will be commencing in the coming weeks.
I have no idea when it will be declared operational, but it is definitely moving forward.
I believe this falls within acceptable OPSEC parameters, even though this is a public website the information isn't terribly sensitive.
Thom Hamilton
Interesting - the is obviously too big to hang from the belly, where I thought it might go. I wonder how the asymmetric weight and drag will affect aircraft handling?
I have been a ground pounder at both NTC and JRTC.( they both suck) It sounds like a great mission I would love to be involved in.
Quote from: AirDX on September 12, 2009, 10:09:33 PM
Interesting - the is obviously too big to hang from the belly, where I thought it might go. I wonder how the asymmetric weight and drag will affect aircraft handling?
(http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.ls1tech.com/get/forums/images/smilies/threadworthlesswithoutpics.gif)
Go to the CAP homepage and click on the news section. There is a photo of the aircraft with the "ball" mounted under the left wing. The is also an article about the mission.
Or go to the press release I linked earlier.
davidsinn:
Quote from: RiverAux on September 11, 2009, 07:33:47 PM
CAP News Release: http://www.capvolunteernow.com/todays_features.cfm/cap_pilots_to_fly_surrogate_predators_to_assist_military?show=news&newsID=5998
Our camera that I use for work is mounted on the pilots side of the fuselage. It makes things a little more in line. I thought it was odd that the mounted it on the wing. We can pan 360 and straight down as well on the Gyrocam system at work. Oh well, I guess they didnt ask me. But here is the pilots view of the CAP version.
[attachment deleted by admin]
Thanks. What's that doofer between the main mounts? It looks too big to be a Becker.
Why did my photo attached to my post get deleted?
Quote from: Flying Pig on September 13, 2009, 11:34:02 PM
Why did my photo attached to my post get deleted?
Probably this policy (http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=8454.0).
Quote from: RiverAux on September 13, 2009, 03:47:01 PM
Or go to the press release I linked earlier.
and then link the photo so everyone else can see it...
(http://www.capvolunteernow.com/file.cfm/media/news/NHQpredsurrogate_F279929D92592.jpg)
If people can't click a link themselves, I'm not too disposed to take more of my time to help them out. Disregard. Thought Eclipse was replying to me, not Flying Pig.
Hmmm. OK. Ive been attaching photos the same way since Ive been here. Oh well. It was a good picture.
Quote from: davidsinn on September 13, 2009, 10:12:56 PM
Thanks. What's that doofer between the main mounts? It looks too big to be a Becker.
That is the antenna they use to send the video back to base or the ground team.
Quote from: lordmonar on September 14, 2009, 03:07:13 AM
Quote from: davidsinn on September 13, 2009, 10:12:56 PM
Thanks. What's that doofer between the main mounts? It looks too big to be a Becker.
That is the antenna they use to send the video back to base or the ground team.
That's what I thought but I wasn't sure.
Looks like that is going to require a LOT of right rudder...
Quote from: Al Sayre on September 14, 2009, 11:52:21 AM
Looks like that is going to require a LOT of right rudder...
That's the same thing I was thinking, and that the wing is going to be heavy as well - perhaps this is the reason they want two pilots initially.
There's also the issue of what you do with these aircraft when not flying a video mission, or when none of these aircrews are around. If the device is user-removable, you have the issue of who will be the first wing to forget the locking pins and drop one, if not, will these aircraft become low-use airframes?
Original RFP:
https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportunity&mode=form&id=9baa1b5739b6cb6cd1fe5196a9b9bed0&tab=core&_cview=0&cck=1&au=&ck=
A slightly larger version of the same photo:
(http://natcapwg.cap.gov/files/Image/2009sep_Predator.jpg)
Information about the senor ball from L-3
http://www.wescam.com/products/products_services_1g.asp
It appears to be an MX-15:
(http://www.wescam.com/img/MX-15i-300dpi.png)
System overview:
(http://www.wescam.com/img/products/MX15i-configuration-ai-0209.jpg)
There's a lot more technical information as well as example photos on their web page.
Quote from: Eclipse on September 14, 2009, 12:52:00 PM
Quote from: Al Sayre on September 14, 2009, 11:52:21 AM
Looks like that is going to require a LOT of right rudder...
That's the same thing I was thinking, and that the wing is going to be heavy as well - perhaps this is the reason they want two pilots initially.
There's also the issue of what you do with these aircraft when not flying a video mission, or when none of these aircrews are around. If the device is user-removable, you have the issue of who will be the first wing to forget the locking pins and drop one, if not, will these aircraft become low-use airframes?
These are DEDICATED airframes, that will only support the Surrogate Predator program. Although, you should have seen the Ops and Maintenance wing guys faces when they announced that the wing still owns the maintenance on the airframe!
The initial ops tempo plans will have the planes used as much or more than any other in the LA Wing inventory, so I don't think they will be 'hangar queens' with low time.
The Army guys are practically salivating over having these available, and my guess would be that, if the project proves out as successful and practical, these will be very busy airframes.
Just in case it wasn't clear, the USAF is putting a LOT of money into this project. Now CAP needs to step up and deliver.
Thom Hamilton
Is there some sort of hard cover that can be locked over the sensor ball when on the ground and not in use? I'd be a little bit worried about people walking by and getting nose prints on the glass.
Quote from: RiverAux on September 14, 2009, 02:42:19 PM
Is there some sort of hard cover that can be locked over the sensor ball when on the ground and not in use? I'd be a little bit worried about people walking by and getting nose prints on the glass.
I haven't been up to see it now that it has arrived, but I assume there is a cover of some sort.
HOWEVER, you also seem to assume it will actually be somewhere that people can simply walk up to it. Not likely, at least in the immediate future. Forget about security and opsec, the cost of fixing the darn thing if someone breaks it makes keeping it safe the number one priority.
I'll be interested to see how maintenance is handled, though it is co-located with the LA Wing maintenance facility.
Thom Hamilton
Quote from: RiverAux on September 14, 2009, 02:42:19 PM
Is there some sort of hard cover that can be locked over the sensor ball when on the ground and not in use? I'd be a little bit worried about people walking by and getting nose prints on the glass.
Most of the military ball style units I've been around have a "Stow" position, where the windows are out of harm's way.
^ There is no cover. The lenses stow facing up, protected by the gimbal.
Has anyone on here actually flow this aircraft yet? My concern would be how the ball effect crosswind perfomance.
Hey I know.......let's balance it out with Hellfires on the right wing ;D
Not sure if someone posted this elswhere but I found a link on WMIRS that gives more info. Look under the specific mission(s) related to the Surrogate Predator
I can only see missions related to KY wing in advanced search.
That document isn't for public consumption.
Quote from: Mustang on September 22, 2009, 10:43:07 AM
That document isn't for public consumption.
That's why I referred everyone to WMIRS to read it.
OK. enuf Secret Squirrel. I can't see it in WMIRS. Are you two in the same Wing or something?
[Removed just to make Josh happy] --NM
apparently WMIRS needs a "need to know" feature....
- Anyone talking about this sort of thing.... probably didn't need to know... Anyone talking about what you see in para this ... or found link that... you can probably consider yourself as unqualified for anything the air force might care to not have in the open... You also don't make everyone else look very good... Thanks
If something is not public knowledge, don't make it. If bits and pieces are public but bringing them together as a whole is not... your still not practicing OpSec...
Maybe this is the RM part of me talking... but lets get ourselves in check....
Quote from: RiveraJ on September 23, 2009, 05:28:01 AM
apparently WMIRS needs a "need to know" feature....
- Anyone talking about this sort of thing.... probably didn't need to know... Anyone talking about what you see in para this ... or found link that... you can probably consider yourself as unqualified for anything the air force might care to not have in the open... You also don't make everyone else look very good... Thanks
If something is not public knowledge, don't make it. If bits and pieces are public but bringing them together as a whole is not... your still not practicing OpSec...
Maybe this is the RM part of me talking... but lets get ourselves in check....
Captain.
I REPEAT.............I referred everyone to WMIRS so ONLY those with access to WMIRS could view the information in the appropriate forum.
Nothing more.
If their was a further restriction on the information fine.
I was NEVER planning on discussing the contents in this forum anyway.
Secondly, my personal opinion is to not place my personal information on-line if at all possible. Like my picture/age. Whole identity theft thing.
Finally, if you think someone violated security the bring it to the attention of the appropriate authorities.
Feel free to private message me if have any questions.
May not reach CAP OPSEC feverpitch...
But Lookee at the L3 website and the drawing Eclipse provided earlier..
OPSEC? Pretty soon the AF will provide enough info
But the basics of the project ARE advertised on L3's website
OPSEC? Wow!
CAP, in itself will leak it in plenty of time....
Sometimes people get a little carried away with the OPSEC. There are hundreds of photos of this system and what it does. Not sure if many of you are aware, but civilians can buy this system also. I know a pilot personally who has his own private surveillance aircraft that he leases as a business with this same system on it.
Copy that, Rob
L3 sells to nearly everyone
CAPers have to realize that this type of technology and equivalents of ARCHER have been in place for years
ARCHER a little different.... remote sensing and surveillance ... new products everyday..
5 to 10 years from now ARCHER may be outmoded...so OPSEC away
This is what I saw happening...
- Info given on location of more info
- comment on what in the file [no info/detail given]
----- invitation for someone else to discuss
- next? full discussion or posting of the document...
I believe I accomplished what I wanted as nothing more on the document has been posted...
Ill leave the rest alone as the response was about what I expected...
Quote from: RiveraJ on September 23, 2009, 06:15:53 PM
This is what I saw happening...
- Info given on location of more info
- comment on what in the file [no info/detail given]
----- invitation for someone else to discuss
- next? full discussion or posting of the document...
I believe I accomplished what I wanted as nothing more on the document has been posted...
Ill leave the rest alone as the response was about what I expected...
Go back to coloring junior
Otherwise keep it to private messaging from now on