Dyslesic Senior Member

[lordmonar]

^ I have to pretty much go with Extreme and Lord on this.

This is not a cadet, this is an adult, who has either learned to cope or he hasn't.  If he has, great, if not, CAP's role is not to "fix" him.

We aren't staffed for it, nor is it even a smidge of the mission.

Please don't group me with Extreme.

a) I'm not makeing any judgments on the member's attitude......I'm no there.
b) Attitude or not.........disability or not........senior or cadet.......we only have so much time to devote to each member....we must make the ROI check before we invest too much in one member.
c) We have a duty to follow the ADA and CAP regs......and EP's attitude will bring the EO down on him in a heart beat.

The solution is somewhere in the middle.

By all means....ask for help.
Ask wing/group to assist....that's their job.
Ask the member if he has a theripist he normally sees and ask them for assistance.
Do a quick google seach and find out if there is a LD/Dyslexic support group in your area
Contact the training material (ICS, CAP) and see if they have expanded learning plans.....I know that IC-100 can be taught in a class room setting.

[Eclipse]

Please don't group me with Extreme.

Sorry, timing only.

Ask wing/group to assist....that's their job.

No, it isn't, even a little.  This is a local membership issue.  What could Group or Wing possibly do to help beyond
advising on the EO issues, and that would be the JAG and / or the Wing CC, not ES.

[Extremepredjudice]

He is using his disability as a crutch. He needs to fix his problem. Not you.

Wow, I sure hope when you finally mature and have a family of your own that none of them suffer from any disabilities, especially those that are not visible.  And if you do, then I really hope that they find a more compassionate person to help them learn how to manage their disabilities than you. 

As far as the ADA goes, they are to have reasonable accommodations made to help them be productive members of society per Federal Law.

I have three learning disabilities. I got over them. I have a job with my college to tutor math, half ofmy tutorees have disabilities. I know how to deal with them: I don't. They tell me what works for them. I "reasonably accomodate" them by doing what they say works.

He is an adult. He should figure it out on his own. He should find what works for him and do that. OP shouldn't be fixing his proble for him.

[lordmonar]

No, it isn't, even a little.  This is a local membership issue.  What could Group or Wing possibly do to help beyond
advising on the EO issues, and that would be the JAG and / or the Wing CC, not ES.

Really?  Helping a squadron CC or ES officer with ES training problem is not wing's/group's job?

If that is so......what exactly do they do for the squadron then. 

Sorry Eclipse you touched one of my third rails again.

[Eclipse]

No, it isn't, even a little.  This is a local membership issue.  What could Group or Wing possibly do to help beyond
advising on the EO issues, and that would be the JAG and / or the Wing CC, not ES.

Really?  Helping a squadron CC or ES officer with ES training problem is not wing's/group's job?

If that is so......what exactly do they do for the squadron then. 

Sorry Eclipse you touched one of my third rails again.

Specifically for any particular squadron?  Nothing.   Groups and Wings coordinate plans and programs between all the units, deconflict and administer resources,
insure programs are compliant with regulations and the subjective direction of the respective commanders, and act as a 2-way span-of-control buffer.

They are not tasked with member-level, hands-on training.  That is specifically the mandate of a squadron commander and his respective staff,
in the same way that any other member-level training is the responsibility of unit CCs. Just because specific members may be assigned at
multiple levels, or choose to be operational assets separate from their assigned HQ duties, or a unit isn't capable of properly manning its org chart
doesn't change the proper model and duties of the various echelons.

We get this all the time "Why isn't wing doing more?".  Right.
Your unit has 30-50 people who can't get out of their own way, schedule their own training, and generally step up when all they have to worry about
is their own specific unit, but a Group with maybe 6 assigned members, total, or a wing with 40-50 is supposed to drop everything and
fix your problems?  That ain't the way it works.

This is no different then some expectation that a DCP is going to come to your squadron and teach your cadets drill, or an AEO is going to come and launch rockets.

But this isn't an ES training issue anyway, this is a training issue, meaning that a member with this specific disability is going to struggle
regardless of what track or arm of CAP he chooses, but no matter what, it is first and foremost the duty of his unit CC to insure he is capable of serving.

I can't imagine what you think would be Group or Wing's ability or responsibility in this matter - they are no more mental health or behavioral
professionals then those assigned at the unit in question, and have the same exact curriculum and requirements to work with.

EO and legal advice to insure that everyone is being treated fairly, and reduce the risk to the corporation?  Yes.

[lordmonar]

Well....not to disrail this thread....I will just have to agree to disagree.

I will say....that if you read my posts...you will find that I did not say that it was wing's job to do the training.......but to HELP the squadron do the training.

And I agree....wing need to do more to help the squadrons.

[Flying Pig]

When all of the training is completed, regardless of how that is accomplished,  what level of assistance will this member need to perform as a member of CAP and in ES?  What about navigating E-Services?  As they progress through their specialty track, is someone going to be at their side to assist them with Professional Development?  Obviously we know PD isnt a requirement.  This member could stay a 1Lt for 20 yrs.  How old is this person?  Is this a 21yr old who still lives at home or is this an adult with a family who is able to provide for themselves and others and just needs some assistance?  Their past track record of success or nonsuccess would be something I would look at as a consideration for how much I want to invest in a member.  Does this member have family willing to join to assist?  Wife, husband?  Someone who would be more willing to invest the time needed along side this person?  If this person is older, should they not have developed a support network to assist with these issues? By that, I mean if they work and are older or mature, your post reads like its a surprise to this member that reading would be required.

We have all this talk about ADA and Fed Law, but you arent going to find anything that says a member needs to sit with a new member every night doing their work with them.  If you have a member willing to do that, great.  I know in my unit, members came, did their tasks, and filtered in and out as needed.  I would not have had anyone who could have invested the time to sit and read the material to a new member.  As the Sq CC, I would not have expected anyone to either, nor would I have done it.  It would definitely be squadron specific based on the abilities of the unit.

Wing?  I do understand that Wing supports local units, but I dont know that they are required to support down to the individual member in this particular case.  Perhaps wing can offer some direction or know of other members so this person can network.  But this is very much a Sq or a Group issue.  I dont know what resources Wing would have that a Sq or Group wouldnt have access to. 

So..... that being said.  I would suggest to this member that with Level 1 finished, they just take their time.  Dont stress about it and just do the minimum necessary to be able to operate at the basic level.  Get in and get a feel for CAP for a while that way the things he is reading may have more of a real life context.  The member needs to be partnered with a member who understands and is willing to help without the entire unit knowing that "Senior Member Smith cant read."    From reading your initial post, it sounds as if you will be that default member will be you?

This member also needs to have a serious sit down in regards to what may be required in the specialty track they are interested in.  ES?  ES could be something that may be restrictive to someone with a high level of Dyslexia.  Something as simple as reversing some numbers in a grid being assigned to an aircrew could be detrimental. (purely an example)  Communication?  We all know that a lot of Comm is repeating and sending messages quickly and accurately.  I dont need to provide any examples of that. 

We can talk about Wing all we want, but ultimately if this member needs that level of support, its going to come from the local unit members supporting the member.

[Bobble]

Just as FP stated above ("We have all this talk about ADA and Fed Law, but you arent (sic) going to find anything that says a member needs to ..."), I am curious as to why some folks here think that the ADA has any relevance to this issue.

From the 'Questions and Answers' page on 'www.ada.gov' -

"The Americans with Disabilities Act gives civil rights protections to individuals with disabilities similar to those provided to individuals on the basis of race, color, sex, national origin, age, and religion. It guarantees equal opportunity for individuals with disabilities in public accommodations, employment, transportation, State and local government services, and telecommunications."

and

"Q. What employers are covered by title I of the ADA, and when is the coverage effective?

A. The title I employment provisions apply to private employers, State and local governments, employment agencies, and labor unions. Employers with 25 or more employees were covered as of July 26, 1992. Employers with 15 or more employees were covered two years later, beginning July 26, 1994."

As a not-for-profit organization primarily composed of volunteers, I just don't see how it would apply.  Not that I wouldn't try help out (as far as reasonable) the senior member in question, but I don't think that it would be because federal law required me to do so.

[RiverAux]

CAPR36-1 cites quite a few federal laws on non-discrimination that apply to CAP due to our relationship with the Air Force. 

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

If I was on the Unit Membership Board I would have flagged him and told the Squadron Commander that this person may be a problem in the future.

And, as someone with a documented disability myself, were I to find out that someone had said that about me, I would seriously question the wisdom of wanting to be in an organisation with someone who takes that attitude...but not before giving the person some much-needed "enlightenment."

[Bobble]

CAPR36-1 cites quite a few federal laws on non-discrimination that apply to CAP due to our relationship with the Air Force.

Fair enough -

Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (PL 88-352),
Title III of the Age Discrimination Act of 1975 (PL 94-135),
Department of Defense (DOD) Directive 5500.11, Nondiscrimination in Federally Assisted Programs,
DOD Directive 1020.1, Nondiscrimination on the Basis of Handicap in Programs and Activities Assisted or Conducted by the Department of Defense, and
Air Force Instruction (AFI) 36-2707, Nondiscrimination in Programs and Activities Assisted or Conducted by the Department of the Air Force.

I don't believe that the references above really have much to do with this discussion.  The definition from Title VI of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 (PL 88-352), Sec. 601 -

"No person in the United States shall, on the ground of race, color, or national origin, be excluded from participation in, be denied the benefits of, or be subjected to discrimination under any program or activity receiving Federal financial assistance."

Of course, with the passage and implementation of the ADA, you can add physical and mental handicaps/disabilities to the categorizations found above.

The Senior Member in question has not been excluded from or denied participation in CAP. It is instead a question of 'accommodation'.

From DOD Directive 1020.1:

"E2. ENCLOSURE 2: DEFINITIONS"

"E2.1.7. Recipient. Any State or political subdivision or instrumentality thereof,
any public or private agency (such as CAP), institution, organization, or other entity, or any person that receives Federal financial assistance directly or through another recipient, including any
successor, assignee, or transferee of a recipient, but not the ultimate beneficiary of the
assistance. The term includes persons and entities applying to be recipients."

"E3.2. PROHIBITIONS AGAINST EMPLOYMENT DISCRIMINATION BY RECIPIENTS"

"E3.2.4. A recipient shall make reasonable accommodation to the known physical or
mental limitations of an otherwise qualified handicapped applicant or employee unless
the recipient can demonstrate that the accommodation would impose an undue hardship
on the operation of its program. Reasonable accommodation includes providing ramps,
accessible restrooms, drinking fountains, interpreters for deaf employees, readers for
blind employees, amplified telephones, TDDs such as Teletypewriters or Telephone
Writers (TTYs), and tactile signs on elevators."


And you could make the argument that this would only apply to CAP's paid staff, since we are still talking about a volunteer Senior Member and not an "employee".  Or you could make the argument that accommodating the individual in question "... would impose an undue hardship on the operation of its (i.e., CAP's) program".  Either way, I'd still help the individual in question unless I believed that the help given was A) Unfair to the professional development progression of other Senior Members, and/or B) The qualifications ultimately achieved by the individual in question could jeopardize CAP operations.

[Flying Pig]

  In CAP, you can argue and cite ADA, Fed issues, etc etc etc.  In reality,  it basically boils down to whether or not anyone in that particular Sq feels like dealing with it.  There is no, law, mandate or regulation that can force that. The member can join and have full access to the program if they want.  No different than if a member joins who is in a wheel chair, no other member in CAP can be made to push that person around during a meeting.  This has everything to do with how much the members of that unit want to invest in to getting this member through the material.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

And you could make the argument that this would only apply to CAP's paid staff, since we are still talking about a volunteer Senior Member and not an "employee".  Or you could make the argument that accommodating the individual in question "... would impose an undue hardship on the operation of its (i.e., CAP's) program".  Either way, I'd still help the individual in question unless I believed that the help given was A) Unfair to the professional development progression of other Senior Members, and/or B) The qualifications ultimately achieved by the individual in question could jeopardize CAP operations.

You could, but unless you're a lawyer with experience in civil rights litigation, I doubt you would get very far, especially in the arena of public opinion.

It would be very hard to make the case that accommodating a dyslexic person would pose an undue hardship on CAP...especially in the big picture.  You're talking one person, in one unit, out of how many squadrons in 52 wings?

I suppose I take a personal interest in this because of my own disability.  One thing I have learnt over the ages is to document, document, document.  I have a paper trail going back many years taking up quite a bit of storage space in a fireproof file cabinet, with a lot of it also scanned into secure files saved on my computer/flash drives.  No joke, having to do that has probably made me a better Administrative Officer.

This is restating the obvious, and restating the opinions of many of our colleagues here on CT, but a good thing for all concerned would be for the Commander, Legal Officer (right, if you're one of the few units to have one) and PD Officer to sit down with the person and ask them a few questions:

1. What do you want to do in CAP?
2. What should the unit do to help you achieve your goals?
3. What contributions do you believe you can make to the unit?

It can be dicey, no question, but I think it can be done.

That is, unless said member takes the attitude that my niece took.

[Flying Pig]

No, it really wouldnt be very hard at all.   "I do not have any volunteers in my unit interested in shadowing this person and acting as a translator for the duration of their CAP career."  Is some attorney going to mandate that a member from CAP volunteer their personal time to read this potential member all of the material for their specialty track?  Is CAP required to provide interpreters for deaf members?  Are we required to provide material in Braile?  If a member is in a wheel chair, but the CAP unit is upstairs, is a member required to carry that person up the stairs?

Again, the member is not being prevented from joining.  But you cant mandate that another volunteer member be imposed on to sit with this person and read them the material on their own time.

[a2capt]

Would be kind of interesting if the subject of this found this thread...

[Flying Pig]

Hopefully its already been discusse with the member.

[Private Investigator]

Too bad every Squadron is not perfect like Petticoat Junction Cadet Squadron 1.

Anyways before I retired as a policeman and most people in CAP knew I was a cop. I was visiting a Squadron and one of the parents mentioned, "a scary looking homeless man is loitering in the parking lot." That was one of the senior members. I do not know if 100% of the membership knows why a unit needs a "Unit Membership Board". No reason for a unit to be that needy for members or a few dollars.

[Flying Pig]

I had 3 separate people during my time as Sq CC who I advised that our unit + them was not a good match.  Thank You for your time.  None had anything to do with disabilities though.

[Eclipse]

We had a guy wander in one day when we were cleaning our building who claimed to be a USAF MSgt.   

He talked a good game until he started asking questions about "How soon I can bring the word of the Lord to the cadets."

When we pressed on him military service and other pertinent questions, he mysteriously never came back.

[The CyBorg is destroyed]

"I do not have any volunteers in my unit interested in shadowing this person and acting as a translator for the duration of their CAP career." 

Has anyone here said that is what would be required to accommodate that member?

Is some attorney going to mandate that a member from CAP volunteer their personal time to read this potential member all of the material for their specialty track?  Is CAP required to provide interpreters for deaf members?  Are we required to provide material in Braile?  If a member is in a wheel chair, but the CAP unit is upstairs, is a member required to carry that person up the stairs?

Again, unless it has been stated that such actions are required to accommodate a potential member, such speculation falls under the logical fallacy of the slippery slope.

And a town I used to live in got socked under the ADA for not having wheelchair slopes at crosswalks.

Again, the member is not being prevented from joining.  But you cant mandate that another volunteer member be imposed on to sit with this person and read them the material on their own time.

Is that is what is being asked for?  Until one knows specifics, all we have to go on are generalities and hypotheses.

I had 3 separate people during my time as Sq CC who I advised that our unit + them was not a good match.  Thank You for your time.  None had anything to do with disabilities though.

IF any of them had a disability, I hope, for your unit's sake, that it was documented as to why they were not a good match.

I know quite well the "Membership in CAP is a privilege, not a right.  However, when someone DOES have a documented disability, almost any organisation walks a razor's edge with that."

Too bad every Squadron is not perfect like Petticoat Junction Cadet Squadron 1.

Where was it stated explicitly or implied that any squadron was "perfect?"

Anyways before I retired as a policeman and most people in CAP knew I was a cop. I was visiting a Squadron and one of the parents mentioned, "a scary looking homeless man is loitering in the parking lot." That was one of the senior members.

First, what made him "scary-looking?"  When I was a teenager I looked about like this:



However, I was quite harmless...in fact, more than one girlfriend's parent/high school teacher remarked on the dichotomy between my appearance and personality.

One of my classmates said, "you look like a hood but talk like a professor!"

Second, how would one of the parents know said individual was indeed homeless?

I do not know if 100% of the membership knows why a unit needs a "Unit Membership Board". No reason for a unit to be that needy for members or a few dollars.

Such boards are a good thing...as a CYA if nothing else.

Again, until/unless specifics of accommodating this member are known, all you have is "maybes."