No Cadet Officer and no Senior Members able to serve as Acting Cadet Commander

[Ned Stark]

I am a senior member in a squadron with 35 cadets. Our only cadet officer is stepping down as cadet commander after 2 years, in a week. We have been told that none of our highly qualified NCO's can be cadet commander and that a senior member needs to be the Acting Cadet Commander.

However, none of our four active senior members (that have been in more than a few months), has time to be the Acting Cadet Commander. I hold 12 wing or squadron positions, another holds 11 wing or squadron positions, a third senior member holds three positions and the fourth is our very busy commander. I come from a very small wing (6-7 squadrons), with the nearest cadet squadron being 75 miles away.

We don't know what to do. But all of the senior members have made it clear that we do not have the time to assume the position or duties of Acting Cadet Commander. What should we do? Can we get a waiver? Also how do we get the NHQ Cadet Programs Staff to listen to the concerns of small wings ?

[NovemberWhiskey]

A squadron does not require the appointment of a Cadet Commander (who must be at least C/2d Lt).

An acceptable organizational structure for a larger, bottom-heavy unit is to have a first sergeant as the senior cadet, with multiple flight sergeants, element leaders and element members below. This is as described in CAPP 60-31 (Cadet Staff Handbook) on page 56.

It is appropriate to raise this matter with your unit commander. It is their responsibility to select the organizational structure appropriate for the cadets in their unit and to assign the cadet staff (ref. CAPR 60-1 section 4.1).

[Eclipse]

We have been told that none of our highly qualified NCO's can be cadet commander

Cadet NCOs are neither qualified, nor allowed to be the Cadet Commander. Ref: CAPR 60-1

...a senior member needs to be the Acting Cadet Commander.

A senior member cannot assume a cadet role, nor is the appointment of a Cadet Commander required, or even specifically necessary.

However, none of our four active senior members (that have been in more than a few months), has time to be the Acting Cadet Commander. I hold 12 wing or squadron positions, another holds 11 wing or squadron positions, a third senior member holds three positions and the fourth is our very busy commander. I come from a very small wing (6-7 squadrons), with the nearest cadet squadron being 75 miles away.

There is so much wrong in these sentences there's no point in addressing it.

We don't know what to do. But all of the senior members have made it clear that we do not have the time to assume the position or duties of Acting Cadet Commander. What should we do? Can we get a waiver? Also how do we get the NHQ Cadet Programs Staff to listen to the concerns of small wings ?

Since this is literally not a problem, per se, you soldier on, run your weekly meetings, and work on recruiting.
Your CC clearly needs both help and mentoring, but you are not in an usual situation.

Your senior member staff are duty bound and required to run the squadron to the best of their abilities or
step aside.  It may well turn out there is not the manpower to have a unit in your area, pretending
things are otherwise doesn't' help anyone.

And whether your wing is small or not, they have a duty to help.

[Ned Stark]

Sure, the unit isn't required to have a cadet commander. But who is going to do the duties of the cadet commander? Can we just assign all of the duties of the cadet commander position to a cadet NCO or several cadet NCO's and just not call them cadet commander?

I have several qualified cadet NCO's that could do the job of Cadet Commander, they just didn't join until they were 16 years old. One is an Eagle Scout who served as the Senior Patrol Leader of his troop. So they have planned meetings for their troop and lead troop activities. Another was in JROTC before they shut the program down. Finally another is ranked 1st or 2nd in their in their high school class of over 100 students and have soloed in an aircraft.

The organizational charts in CAPP 60-31 (Cadet Staff Handbook) on page 56 are unacceptable if they require a senior member to preform the duties of cadet commander. This is especially true when I have cadets capable and willing to preform the duties of the cadet commander position.

As far as help from the wing, we are the wing. The Director of Cadet Programs, Assistant Director of Cadet Programs and Senior Adviser to the Wing CAC are all members of my squadron. Also folding the squadron is not a realistic option, as we would lose over a third of the cadets in our wing.

[abdsp51]

Are you an overseas unit?  If not then you are not a or the wing...

[JayT]

Sure, the unit isn't required to have a cadet commander. But who is going to do the duties of the cadet commander? Can we just assign all of the duties of the cadet commander position to a cadet NCO or several cadet NCO's and just not call them cadet commander?

I have several qualified cadet NCO's that could do the job of Cadet Commander, they just didn't join until they were 16 years old. One is an Eagle Scout who served as the Senior Patrol Leader of his troop. So they have planned meetings for their troop and lead troop activities. Another was in JROTC before they shut the program down. Finally another is ranked 1st or 2nd in their in their high school class of over 100 students and have soloed in an aircraft.

The organizational charts in CAPP 60-31 (Cadet Staff Handbook) on page 56 are unacceptable if they require a senior member to preform the duties of cadet commander. This is especially true when I have cadets capable and willing to preform the duties of the cadet commander position.

As far as help from the wing, we are the wing. The Director of Cadet Programs, Assistant Director of Cadet Programs and Senior Adviser to the Wing CAC are all members of my squadron. Also folding the squadron is not a realistic option, as we would lose over a third of the cadets in our wing.

The cadet program has a beginning, middle, and end. If you appoint a cadet to a position that they're not ready for, you're not doing them any favors. A. You're showing them that the rules and regulations can be bent when they're not convenient for an organization. B. You're putting them in a position that may encourage them to stagnate (when I was a cadet, I used to hear "I don't have time to study or advance, I have so much work to do for the squadron" from my fellow cadet officers and senior NCO's all the time.) C. You're also not following the paramilitary lines that the organization is supposed to be organized along

Eagle Scout? Great, he should be able to advance fast. JROTC? Has almost nothing to do with CAP's curriculum. High academic standing? Great, he should be able to advance fast, and encourage his fellow cadets in their aviation interests.

[Ned Stark]

The Eagle Scout is advancing very quickly and is promoting on average every 2 1/2 months. He is not stagnating. However he will be almost graduated from high school, by the time he would be eligible to be cadet commander. He will then be leaving for the military. I am not asking to violate regulations. I am asking for workable solutions. I am also saying that the regulation is broken and needs to be changed. However the National Director of Cadet Programs Curt LaFond, doesn't appear to care about what the people in my wing or two of our nearby wings think. This is based on my personal interactions with him and the interactions of several other officers for our three wings. Who above Curt do I need to talk to, so that concerns are taken seriously? CAP worked just fine with NCO Cadet Commanders before 2018. I'm just saying that with one minor regulation change, it could again.

Back on Tack
So far I have heard no solutions that will work for our immediate problem:
1. Shutdown the squadron: Unacceptable
We would lose 1/3 of the wings cadets and they would have no nearby squadron to go to.

2. Have Senior Members do the duties of the Cadet Commander Position: Not possible right now
This would overtax the squadrons senior member and new squadron commander creating even more burnout.

3. Ask the wing for help: Help is not coming
The wing is not in a position to help. Our wing can barley fill most of its positions. In fact the wing has some currently open positions.

4. Get a new squadron commander: Not possible right now
Our Commander is new and there is no one else available to step into the position at the moment.

5. Make a Cadet NCO the cadet commander: Would violate regulations

5. Give a group of NCO's all of the duties of the cadet commander position: Not sure if this would violate regulations or not
Most likely course of action for my squadron.

[abdsp51]

What wing is so jacked up that it can't function?  BLUF you don't have anyone who can be CC so you run as a flight with a flight sgt.

Enlisted are not commanders by any means. 

If you're arwa is that hard up maybe region needs to come take a long hard look. 

This scenario doesn't pass the smell test..

[Eclipse]

Sure, the unit isn't required to have a cadet commander. But who is going to do the duties of the cadet commander? Can we just assign all of the duties of the cadet commander position to a cadet NCO or several cadet NCO's and just not call them cadet commander?

You can assign pretty much any duty to anyone who is willing, but if you give an assignment to an NCO that is a management-style assignment,
that is unfair to the cadet, and likely to fail.   The cadet program has phases of training for a reason, and expecting shooters to do pointer jobs
before they have been properly trained and mentored is unfair.  It also robs them of the shooter experience.

Further to this, since you do not have any cadet officers, these cadets in question have had zero examples on which
to model their behavior.  I have watched this exact scenario play out many times over the years and it rarely ends well.

Give your cadets responsibility they have been prepared for, and let the rest fall to the Seniors until such time that
you have properly trained cadets.  And no, that does not mean you make the first Chief to get his Mitchell the C/CC.
That's flight CC grade.

I have several qualified cadet NCO's that could do the job of Cadet Commander, they just didn't join until they were 16 years old.

No, you do not.  Age does not equate to grade in any way.  You have NCOs who are not qualified, per the regulations, to hold command positions.
Your confidence in their abilities is somewhat irrelevant in this regard as the verbiage is clear, and for a reason.

You won't have anyone "qualified" until you have a cadet wearing two pips.

One is an Eagle Scout who served as the Senior Patrol Leader of his troop. So they have planned meetings for their troop and lead troop activities.

I have two sons completing their eagle project and was a Scout myself.  Being an Eagle is no small feat, but the BSA is no CAP in regards to
structure or expectations. It also doesn't change the above.

Another was in JROTC before they shut the program down.

Still not really relevent.  A lot of JROTC programs are gym substitutes with 1/2 attention, and you'd probably
agree that any program that got shut down likely wasn't coherent or big enough to make much difference experience-wise.

Finally another is ranked 1st or 2nd in their in their high school class of over 100 students and have soloed in an aircraft.

No idea how that is relevent unless they are applying for a scholarship or intend to staff a flight school

The organizational charts in CAPP 60-31 (Cadet Staff Handbook) on page 56 are unacceptable if they require a senior member to preform the duties of cadet commander. This is especially true when I have cadets capable and willing to preform the duties of the cadet commander position.

"Unacceptable?" They just "are".  Your Commander has NO CHOICE but to perform those tasks and duties necessary to insure the
smooth running of the squadron, for all members, or step down.  This isn't optional, it's his job.

Now, this doesn't mean that the Unit CC is the "Cadet Commander", it means he has to do the scheduling, testing and
other tasks that keep the doors open.  Your situation is not unique.  There are scores of units that have no officers
running without a cadet EXE staff.  Pretty common, actually.

As far as help from the wing, we are the wing. The Director of Cadet Programs, Assistant Director of Cadet Programs and Senior Adviser to the Wing CAC are all members of my squadron. Also folding the squadron is not a realistic option, as we would lose over a third of the cadets in our wing.

1 - Irrelevant to the facts.

2 - You might not want to wear that as proudly as you seem to be considering the shape your wing apparently is in,
and without putting too fine a point on it, a Wing DCP should already know the answers to these questions.
If you have 1/3rd of the cadets in your wing in a single unit that can't field a single cadet officer, and the CC isn't interested
in doing his job, you are in serious trouble, and direct conversations with the Wing CC need to be had THIS WEEKEND.

The question of viability may well be taken out of your hands, or solve itself organically if you don't start fixing things fast.

[CAP9907]

Interesting problem.. Ned.

(this thread is hanging on by a.... thread..)

~9907

[SarDragon]

The Eagle Scout is advancing very quickly and is promoting on average every 2 1/2 months. He is not stagnating. However he will be almost graduated from high school, by the time he would be eligible to be cadet commander. He will then be leaving for the military. I am not asking to violate regulations. I am asking for workable solutions. I am also saying that the regulation is broken and needs to be changed. However the National Director of Cadet Programs Curt LaFond, doesn't appear to care about what the people in my wing or two of our nearby wings think. This is based on my personal interactions with him and the interactions of several other officers for our three wings. Who above Curt do I need to talk to, so that concerns are taken seriously? CAP worked just fine with NCO Cadet Commanders before 2018. I'm just saying that with one minor regulation change, it could again.

Back on Tack
So far I have heard no solutions that will work for our immediate problem:
1. Shutdown the squadron: Unacceptable
We would lose 1/3 of the wings cadets and they would have no nearby squadron to go to.

2. Have Senior Members do the duties of the Cadet Commander Position: Not possible right now
This would overtax the squadrons senior member and new squadron commander creating even more burnout.

3. Ask the wing for help: Help is not coming
The wing is not in a position to help. Our wing can barley fill most of its positions. In fact the wing has some currently open positions.

4. Get a new squadron commander: Not possible right now
Our Commander is new and there is no one else available to step into the position at the moment.

5. Make a Cadet NCO the cadet commander: Would violate regulations

5. Give a group of NCO's all of the duties of the cadet commander position: Not sure if this would violate regulations or not
Most likely course of action for my squadron.

You missed one, partly addressed in #5 (emphasis mine):

A squadron does not require the appointment of a Cadet Commander (who must be at least C/2d Lt).

An acceptable organizational structure for a larger, bottom-heavy unit is to have a first sergeant as the senior cadet, with multiple flight sergeants, element leaders and element members below. This is as described in CAPP 60-31 (Cadet Staff Handbook) on page 56.

It is appropriate to raise this matter with your unit commander. It is their responsibility to select the organizational structure appropriate for the cadets in their unit and to assign the cadet staff (ref. CAPR 60-1 section 4.1).

[Eclipse]

CAP worked just fine with NCO Cadet Commanders before 2018.

No, it did not.  How about SrA C/CC's? BTDT.  It's ridiculous and almost always results in either a "Cadet King", or an "ex-Cadet"

The assertion that things worked fine, is incorrect.  They allowed for an expedient "out" for the organizaiton, to
the detriment of both the respective member, and those in his charge.

So far I have heard no solutions that will work for our immediate problem:

That's because your options are limited, require people to step up and do their jobs, and you're
apparently not interested in that.

For starters, drop all those Wing jobs and concentrate on the squadron, which should be your focus,
especially in the current situation.

[Ned Stark]

I didn't really miss yours. You never really answered my question from earlier.  If we pick any of these organizational charts without a cadet commander, who preforms the duties that would normally be assigned to a cadet commander? Is it the NCO staff as a group or a senior member?

Thank you and I do look forward to your answer.

You missed one, partly addressed in #5 (emphasis mine):

An acceptable organizational structure for a larger, bottom-heavy unit is to have a first sergeant as the senior cadet, with multiple flight sergeants, element leaders and element members below. This is as described in CAPP 60-31 (Cadet Staff Handbook) on page 56.

[Eclipse]

I didn't really miss yours. You never really answered my question from earlier.  If we pick any of these organizational charts without a cadet commander, who preforms the duties that would normally be assigned to a cadet commander?

Is it the NCO staff as a group or a senior member?

Yes.

[Fester]

The responsibilities of the Cadet Commander should revert back to your Deputy Commander for Cadets, your Deputy Commander (if a Cadet Squadron) or to your Commander since you have ZERO cadets who are eligible for that position.  Period.

[JayT]

The Eagle Scout is advancing very quickly and is promoting on average every 2 1/2 months. He is not stagnating. However he will be almost graduated from high school, by the time he would be eligible to be cadet commander. He will then be leaving for the military. I am not asking to violate regulations. I am asking for workable solutions. I am also saying that the regulation is broken and needs to be changed. However the National Director of Cadet Programs Curt LaFond, doesn't appear to care about what the people in my wing or two of our nearby wings think. This is based on my personal interactions with him and the interactions of several other officers for our three wings. Who above Curt do I need to talk to, so that concerns are taken seriously? CAP worked just fine with NCO Cadet Commanders before 2018. I'm just saying that with one minor regulation change, it could again.

Back on Tack
So far I have heard no solutions that will work for our immediate problem:
1. Shutdown the squadron: Unacceptable
We would lose 1/3 of the wings cadets and they would have no nearby squadron to go to.

2. Have Senior Members do the duties of the Cadet Commander Position: Not possible right now
This would overtax the squadrons senior member and new squadron commander creating even more burnout.

3. Ask the wing for help: Help is not coming
The wing is not in a position to help. Our wing can barley fill most of its positions. In fact the wing has some currently open positions.

4. Get a new squadron commander: Not possible right now
Our Commander is new and there is no one else available to step into the position at the moment.

5. Make a Cadet NCO the cadet commander: Would violate regulations

5. Give a group of NCO's all of the duties of the cadet commander position: Not sure if this would violate regulations or not
Most likely course of action for my squadron.

So did you come here looking for a discussion or for validation of your preexisting views?

[NIN]

Our only cadet officer is stepping down as cadet commander after 2 years, in a week.

Emphasis mine.

Maybe I missed a prior mention of this,  but part of your issue stems from a glass ceiling on your cadets. I've seen this in my own sq where c/CC was a yearlong duty assignment. Sure, there was some staff shuffling under the cadet commander during that time, but the upward mobility of some/many cadets is artificially stymied by one cadet in the same job, especially the top job, for that long.

Cadets see that no matter how how much effort they put into their progression, they're limited in their opportunities the higher they go. It creates a tamping effect on cadet progression. They get close to the Mitchell and that looks like a hill, they're not going to really have any progression in staff or command with the top job stagnant for years, too, so why bother with the effort? MegaChief sounds pretty cool, guess I'll just sit here. Especially if nobody is monitoring progression and counseling the up-and-comers on continuing to move.

It's kind of a "fish bowl effect" for your cadets if you limit mobility in that way. You'll either wind up with a bottom-heavy (or middle-bottom-heavy) cadet corps, or you'll have a retention issue depending on the age distribution of your cadets.

[NovemberWhiskey]

I am asking for workable solutions.

The program allows a significant amount of discretion to unit commanders, but we have to give credit to the national staff that where discretion is not granted, that is based on accumulated experience and lessons learned. If you want to provide Civil Air Patrol's cadet program, then you are asked to do so in accordance with those parameters.

You have cadets in Phase II; the leadership phase, but you don't have any in Phase III; the command phase. The cadet program is clearly described as an environment where the seniors in a squadron are required to provide those aspects of leadership which the cadets cannot provide for themselves: as the cadets take a step forward, the seniors take a step back.

This does not necessarily mean that there is less to do in a squadron with more senior cadets - if the senior members in your squadron can't afford to spend the time to mentor your NCOs and make plans for them to execute, how will you be supporting the SDAs, supervising assignments and other activities required for Phase III cadets in an effective way?

I'm surprised that you think prematurely advancing a cadet would be a solution to your problem. Directly: this seems like magical thinking. It seems very clear that your problem is nothing to do with the cadet program, but with senior recruitment and retention (12 duty assignments?). You have 35 cadets in your unit, but none of them have parents who would be willing to help out?

[Ned Stark]

After talking to the our wing director of cadet programs and wing commander (who consulted with our region commander), we will be moving forward with having the cadet NCO's as a group plan meetings and fulfill the duties that would normally be assigned to a cadet commander. Since that is not explicitly prohibited by CAPR 60-1. I would also add that after 9 months of talking to parents, we do have a group of parents joining. Which will in the long term address our staffing issues. Thanks for the advise everyone.

[MSG Mac]

Late to the conversation, but have you considered borrowing a Cadet Officer from another unit to be an acting Cadet Commander or mentor until your cadets become officers?

[Ned Stark]

There are about three other cadet officers in my wing. None of them live within 150 miles of my squadron. I would add my cadets have been mentored by cadet officers in the past couple of years. The current cadet commander is a C/Lt Col who is stepping down after two years. Their immediate predecessor as cadet commander was a C/Lt Col that aged out of the program this year and moved away. We also had a C/Capt aged out of the program this year and joined the military. Additionally we had a Cadet Lt that left for the military late last year. I did a good amount of mentoring with the two C/Lt Col's and the C/Capt. Three of these cadets were in my squadron when we only had five active cadets (several other cadets were on the roster, but not very active for various reasons).

Those cadet officers, 3 of whom no longer live in town, also helped us grow to a squadron with about 35 cadets. Those cadet officers when they were NCO's, had to take on a lot of responsibilities that would normally be given to cadet officers (before the 2018 rule change) and they thrived. As Cadet Officers they also took on many responsibilities that would normally be assigned to senior members and they thrived. Given the chance, good cadet NCO's will rise to the occasion.

I would also say we did a good job mentoring those cadet officers as well. In fact one of the C/Lt Col's went on to command the largest and most successful encampment in our wing in over a decade (we had over 100 cadets attending). Both C/Lt Col's would go on to serve as the Region CAC Vice Chair or higher at some point in their CAP careers. The third cadet officer was personally commended by an Air Force LT Col for his service as the communications officer of our wing's evaluated SARX. So our current cadets have been mentored by great cadet officers in the past couple of years. Finally I would add that that the two C/Lt Col's are the only two cadets to have receive their Eaker Awards in my wing, since I was a cadet (way back in the day).

[JohhnyD]

After talking to the our wing director of cadet programs and wing commander (who consulted with our region commander), we will be moving forward with having the cadet NCO's as a group plan meetings and fulfill the duties that would normally be assigned to a cadet commander. Since that is not explicitly prohibited by CAPR 60-1. I would also add that after 9 months of talking to parents, we do have a group of parents joining. Which will in the long term address our staffing issues. Thanks for the advise everyone.

Awesome!

[CAP9907]

Asked, many answers, self-resolved and we are done... I love this website.

As usual, PM myself or another Moderator should there be a need to add to this.

~9907