Cadet punishment/discipline???

Started by capchiro, January 06, 2006, 11:58:06 AM

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capchiro

What do you consider proper cadet punishment/discipline?  What is used at your squadron?  Are push-ups used for punishment?  Is different punishment utilized by cadet staff than that used by senior members working with the cadet program?  This is a broad range question (in other words, I am not talking about any particular offense) and purposely so as I want a broad range of answers and to be able to ascertain as much information as possible.   Does it appear that punishment/discipline varies throughout CAP?  Thank you.
Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
Commander
Sweetwater Comp. Sqdn.
GA154

Pylon

#1
Quote from: capchiro on January 06, 2006, 11:58:06 AM
What do you consider proper cadet punishment/discipline?  What is used at your squadron?  Are push-ups used for punishment?  Is different punishment utilized by cadet staff than that used by senior members working with the cadet program?  This is a broad range question (in other words, I am not talking about any particular offense) and purposely so as I want a broad range of answers and to be able to ascertain as much information as possible.   Does it appear that punishment/discipline varies throughout CAP?  Thank you.

This is a sticky topic; always has been so.

Push-ups, specifically, for use as punishment/discipline/"morale boosters" or other use outside of designated Physical Fitness sessions has already been the subject of the single lengthiest thread on CAPTalk.  See that 6 page debate here:  http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=103.0

I know punishment/discipline and the issues that surround it vary widely across CAP units.  Should it?  To a degree, probably.  To the degree that is does vary now?  Probably not.  But it's a grey area, unfortunately, as far as National policy or expectations.

Personally, my leadership style does not involve punishment or discipline in pretty much any form.  I think I follow the "college professor" style of leadership in this case.  In the same way a college professor teaches a group of students, I want the cadets in my unit to be the same way.  College students are there, in that class and at that college, because they choose to.  They chose that subject area, and specifically they chose that class, because it somehow interests them.  The cadets should want to be at our squadron, and should be in CAP because it really interests them.

If a student/cadet is acting up, causing disruptions, not obeying policies or orders, ad infinitum, the cadet is demonstrating that he or she doesn't want to be there.  In college, the simple solution is -- don't come to class.  If you're not willing to come and eagerly learn that day, don't bother show up.   It's a waste of the instructor's time and energy, and a waste of the student/cadet's own time as well.

Also, take a look at this article.




When I first inhereted in the squadron I am in now, as DCC, I also inhereted the old procedures and OI.  After I had a look at it, I realized all the policies were focused on the negative and around a demerit system.  I immediately set about changing this.  Instead of giving a cadet a demerit point for uniform infractions, missed attendance, and insubordination; I instead offer then incentives.  I offer bonus points towards Cadet Airman of the Quarter for successful uniform inspections, regular attendance, and other factors.  Cadets who do particularly well with something, do a good deed, or exceed expectations can also earn "spot points" or extra points awarded on the spot.

At the end of the quarter, we tally them up, and the cadet with the most points earns CAOTQ.  The CAOTQ for our Group gets a ride in the F-16 trainer/simulator at the local Fighter Wing ANG base for several hours, along side some F-16 pilots.  The cadets have a blast, the ANG pilots enjoy the interaction, and everyone is happy.   

Conversely, I have few discipline problems.  The cadets have too much riding on the fact that they want to be an outstanding cadet, and they want to learn from the exciting classes and activities that we offer so that they don't want to be the one cadet creating problems.  It's worked out very well for me.

Any cadet acting out and giving problems, I'll simply have the C/CC take him or her aside and ask them some questions to find out what's up.  Perhaps they're having some problems in CAP, problems at home, difficulty with a certain issue.  There's usually a reason for an otherwise good cadet to act out.   If that doesn't solve the issue, I may also sit down with the cadet, along with our commander, and perhaps issue a Letter of Counseling if necessary.  But that's an extreme for us.

Cadets who are habitually a problem and don't fit the ideals of the cadet program, don't remain in our program for long.   We don't discipline them formally, but they find they don't fit in with the cadets who want to learn and want to be exemplary cadets.  After I became DCC, some cadets slowly stopped coming.  But what I have now is a great selection of cadets with whom I can give a lot of freedom and responsibility.

If you find yourself constantly disciplining your cadets, you may want to look beyond a short-term fix to each outburst and see what's at the root of the problem.

That's my $0.02 and then some.  Take it with a hefty grain of salt.  Your mileage may vary.  :)
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

BlackKnight

I have yet to see a cadet who needed punishment.  Discipline yes, but not punishment.

If you allow yourself to be maneuvered into a situation where punishment is necessary you've already lost leadership control.

Some commanders maintain discipline with lots of yelling, screaming, and gestures. That takes a lot of emotional energy. Since I'm basically lazy  ;) , I want to be able to let a cadet (or senior) know they're out-of-line with only a 'look' or a quiet admonishment.  Both techniques work. It's just a matter of whether you prefer RE Lee or George Patton. 
Phil Boylan, Maj, CAP
DCS, Rome Composite Sqdn - GA043
http://www.romecap.org/

capchiro

Okay, for a more detailed scenario, a cadet (NCO level) attends a squadron Christmas party.  He tells a senior member (Lt. Col) that he has a pellet gun in his car and can he show it to the other cadets?  She tells him no, emphatically no, and that he is not to mention that he has a pellet gun to any other cadets.  Later, during the party, the cadet is seen outside of the building, shooting the pellet gun with a few other cadets.  A senior member tells him to put it up and he says okay and that it is no big deal for him to have it out.  In this situation, what punishment/discipline is appropriate?
Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
Commander
Sweetwater Comp. Sqdn.
GA154

MIKE

Quote from: capchiro on January 07, 2006, 05:15:05 PM
In this situation, what punishment/discipline is appropriate?

A suspension or suspensions would seem to be in order.  I'd also include counseling and an LOC for all parties involved.

Quote from: CAPR 35-16. a. (2) Regulatory Infractions or Misconduct. A unit commander or higher commander may suspend a member for up to 60 days for misconduct or regulatory infractions. Suspensions in excess of 60 days require approval of the wing commander (or commander at the next higher echelon if the suspension is initiated at wing or region level). Suspensions under the provisions of this paragraph will not exceed a total of 180 days.

Having violated the following:

Quote from: CAPR 52-161-5. c. Weapons. The Cadet Program is intended as a positive activity for youth. There will be no firearms, air guns,
paint guns, or any device that could be used as a weapon at any cadet activity. The only exceptions to this policy are:
1) Deactivated Firearms. Cadets may use facsimile or deactivated firearms only as part of an honor guard or
color guard. A deactivated firearm is one that will prevent the insertion of ammunition or the firing of a weapon. A
facsimile is a copy that is not capable of firing ammunition.
2) Firearm Training. CAP cadets may participate in firearm training. The training facility and sponsoring
personnel or agency must be approved by the wing commander in advance and in writing. Training will be sponsored
and supervised by one of the following:
a) Qualified military small arms range personnel
b) Local law enforcement officers qualified as firearms instructors
c) Personnel of the National Rifle Association, National Skeet Shooting Association, or Amateur Trap
Shooting Association qualified as firearms instructors.
d) Policies noted in CAPR 900-3, Firearms: Assistance to Law Enforcement Officials, will be followed.

Quote from: CAPR 900-31. Firearms. Civil Air Patrol members will not carry, wear, or use firearms, including air guns (pellet or BB) while engaged in Civil Air Patrol activities. The carrying of firearms prohibition is subject to the following excep-tions:
a. A member may carry firearms on his/her person when required to do so by law provided he/she has a written statement of proof of such requirement signed by the Wing Commander.
b. Firearms may be carried in survival gear in CAP aircraft when required by law. When firearms are so authorized, they will not be removed from the survival gear unless an emergency situation exists.
c. Firearms may be used under strict supervision as authorized in CAPM 50-16.
Mike Johnston

BlackKnight

Quote from: capchiro on January 07, 2006, 05:15:05 PM
... He tells a senior member (Lt. Col) that he has a pellet gun in his car and can he show it to the other cadets?  She tells him no, emphatically no, and that he is not to mention that he has a pellet gun to any other cadets.  Later, during the party, the cadet is seen outside of the building, shooting the pellet gun with a few other cadets.

OK, that's pretty flagrant.  Disobedience of a direct order, combined with being STUPID.

A couple of root cause questions to figure out how to keep something similar from occuring again:  (1) Had the cadets been dismissed from the Christmas Party before the horseplay with the pellet gun began?  (2) If not, how did these cadets manage to leave the party without being missed for a long enough period to deploy and begin firing the pellet gun? Were the cadet officers and the DCC so distracted that they lost cadet personnel accountability?

Regardless, it appears that the cadet NCO needs a discipline reminder that actions can have consequences.  Rather than suspension (which may lose a salvageable cadet), recommend invoking paragraph 2-13 of CAPR 52-16:



2-13. DEMOTIONS AND TERMINATIONS. The unit commander may demote a CAP cadet with cause up to a maximum of three earned achievements. Notification of the demotion will be in writing by the unit commander to the cadet, and courtesy copied to the next higher echelon. The demotion will not affect ribbons worn on the uniform, but just the achievements earned (and any grade associated with these achievements). The demoted achievements will need to be re-earned through satisfactory performance over a period of 60 days per achievement. If the cadet's performance does not warrant a one-achievement promotion at the end of 60 days, termination action may be taken in accordance with CAPR 35-3.



Other cadets in the squadron will understand (and secretly applaud) the temporary demotion. They'll realize that standards are being enforced and applied fairly even to higher-grade cadets.  Unit morale and discipline should improve.

Phil Boylan, Maj, CAP
DCS, Rome Composite Sqdn - GA043
http://www.romecap.org/

Eclipse

#6
Quote from: capchiro on January 07, 2006, 05:15:05 PM
Okay, for a more detailed scenario, a cadet (NCO level) attends a squadron Christmas party.  He tells a senior member (Lt. Col) that he has a pellet gun in his car and can he show it to the other cadets?  She tells him no, emphatically no, and that he is not to mention that he has a pellet gun to any other cadets.  Later, during the party, the cadet is seen outside of the building, shooting the pellet gun with a few other cadets.  A senior member tells him to put it up and he says okay and that it is no big deal for him to have it out.  In this situation, what punishment/discipline is appropriate?

Ok, this is a pretty extreme case, but will certainly bring out some interesting discussions.

At a minimum, this cadet should receive a written reprimand and removal from any positions of authority he may hold.  Assuming after that he stays in CAP, his next promotion board should be VERY tight and specific to issues of leadership, following orders, and common sense.

This would have been AFTER a long conversation with the cadet's parents, assuming
he is of an age where they still have influence.

It is also possible that possession of a pellet gun is illegal, (for example it is within the city of Chicago, where possession of a .177 caliber is illegal, and a .22 or higher can bring regular firearms charges) in which case I would give the cadet two options - hand the pellet gun to me for permanent "relocation", or explain to a local police officer why he has it.

Yes, I would call the police on one of my (or anyone else's) cadets.

As leaders, and adults, we have a duty of care to the other members to insure safety and compliance with the law.  If any cadet I have either command over, or contact with, breaks the law in I report it properly. (And let's keep this on track and not get silly - we're talking about weapons, drugs, assault, etc., not minor traffic issues, jaywalking or things like that)

Why? 

A: It's the right thing to do, regardless of the potentially uncomfortable conversations that may ensue.

B: It will set two examples - "don't mess with Capt Williams", and "What's right is right."

C: If I involve the police and higher HQ in a situation like this, the worst that will happen to me, as the responsible adult, is those uncomfortable conversations.  If I don't, and someone is hurt, or property is damaged, I (and Civil Air Patrol) could be held civilly and criminally liable for negligence and dereliction of duty.  I'm not losing my house, my freedom, my kids futures, or putting the organization at risk, for some ding dong kid who won't listen.

"That Others May Zoom"

Eclipse

Pylon, you refer to this article: http://www.cadetstuff.org/archives/000118.html#000118

I am assuming you are doing this in a positive light, below the most salient quote:

"...So, for Cadet Snuffy, who feels like he doesn't have to salute Cadet officers: about five minutes practice whipping salutes at the flag pole or the garbage can and rendering appropriate greeting ("Good evening, sir!") while under the watchful eye of a junior NCO ought to do it.

And for Bagadonuts, who's pockets are never buttoned? Well, can practice buttoning that pocket fifty times shouting, "ONE SIR! TWO SIR" in a loud and grotesque military manner the whole time.

And for your flight at encampment, who took too many shortcuts during cleanup and failed inspection? There's nothing like spending your free time on your hands and knees scrubbing to remind you that cleanliness is next to godliness and that flight sergeants don't like to be embarrassed in front of the First Sergeant..."

I believe this would be considering hazing under even the most loose interpretation.

Capt. Stanford (writer) is a former Marine and a member of PAWG, and this kind of attitude does not surprise me, especially considering the combination, but I do not believe these actions would be appropriate.  I believe any kind of physical activity which is punitive in nature, or singles out a cadet in front of everyone in a negative, way is verboten.

I'm not saying I have a solution, but I also don't believe the above is the answer.

Pylon, if I misinterpreted your intent, I apologize, I do like your general notion that rewards for proper behavior have a better long-term affect than punishment of specific infractions.

"That Others May Zoom"

footballrun21

Quote from: Eclipse on January 08, 2006, 04:07:16 AM
Quote from: capchiro on January 07, 2006, 05:15:05 PM
Okay, for a more detailed scenario, a cadet (NCO level) attends a squadron Christmas party.  He tells a senior member (Lt. Col) that he has a pellet gun in his car and can he show it to the other cadets?  She tells him no, emphatically no, and that he is not to mention that he has a pellet gun to any other cadets.  Later, during the party, the cadet is seen outside of the building, shooting the pellet gun with a few other cadets.  A senior member tells him to put it up and he says okay and that it is no big deal for him to have it out.  In this situation, what punishment/discipline is appropriate?

Ok, this is a pretty extreme case, but will certainly bring out some interesting discussions.

At a minimum, this cadet should receive a written reprimand and removal from any positions of authority he may hold.  Assuming after that he stays in CAP, his next promotion board should be VERY tight and specific to issues of leadership, following orders, and common sense.

This would have been AFTER a long conversation with the cadet's parents, assuming
he is of an age where they still have influence.

It is also possible that possession of a pellet gun is illegal, (for example it is within the city of Chicago, where possession of a .177 caliber is illegal, and a .22 or higher can bring regular firearms charges) in which case I would give the cadet two options - hand the pellet gun to me for permanent "relocation", or explain to a local police officer why he has it.

Yes, I would call the police on one of my (or anyone else's) cadets.

As leaders, and adults, we have a duty of care to the other members to insure safety and compliance with the law.  If any cadet I have either command over, or contact with, breaks the law in I report it properly. (And let's keep this on track and not get silly - we're talking about weapons, drugs, assault, etc., not minor traffic issues, jaywalking or things like that)

Why? 

A: It's the right thing to do, regardless of the potentially uncomfortable conversations that may ensue.

B: It will set two examples - "don't mess with Capt Williams", and "What's right is right."

C: If I involve the police and higher HQ in a situation like this, the worst that will happen to me, as the responsible adult, is those uncomfortable conversations.  If I don't, and someone is hurt, or property is damaged, I (and Civil Air Patrol) could be held civilly and criminally liable for negligence and dereliction of duty.  I'm not losing my house, my freedom, my kids futures, or putting the organization at risk, for some ding dong kid who won't listen.


Couldn't agree with you more, sir.

About your second post.  It is considered hazing if a senior tells a cadet to do those things, but if say a cadet officer orders a cadet airman to practice saluting the flag pole until he gets it right, is that hazing?  Isn't the senior member ->cadets hazing regs more strict than the cadets->cadets?
C/2d Lt. Stephen Pettit, CAP
New Jersey Wing

Eclipse

#9
Noooooo, hazing is hazing, and while Seniors can certainly find themselves in that trap, its generally well-intentioned cadets, trying to teach errant fellow members "a lesson" who get themselves in trouble.

It's more encumbant on the Seniors to recognize the signs of hazing in the cadets.

When you get down to it, a properly run cadet unit should really be run almost soley by the cadets themselves.

"That Others May Zoom"

Pylon

Quote from: Eclipse on January 08, 2006, 04:42:48 AM
Pylon, you refer to this article: http://www.cadetstuff.org/archives/000118.html#000118

I am assuming you are doing this in a positive light, below the most salient quote:

"...So, for Cadet Snuffy, who feels like he doesn't have to salute Cadet officers: about five minutes practice whipping salutes at the flag pole or the garbage can and rendering appropriate greeting ("Good evening, sir!") while under the watchful eye of a junior NCO ought to do it.

And for Bagadonuts, who's pockets are never buttoned? Well, can practice buttoning that pocket fifty times shouting, "ONE SIR! TWO SIR" in a loud and grotesque military manner the whole time.

And for your flight at encampment, who took too many shortcuts during cleanup and failed inspection? There's nothing like spending your free time on your hands and knees scrubbing to remind you that cleanliness is next to godliness and that flight sergeants don't like to be embarrassed in front of the First Sergeant..."

I believe this would be considering hazing under even the most loose interpretation.

Capt. Stanford (writer) is a former Marine and a member of PAWG, and this kind of attitude does not surprise me, especially considering the combination, but I do not believe these actions would be appropriate.  I believe any kind of physical activity which is punitive in nature, or singles out a cadet in front of everyone in a negative, way is verboten.

I'm not saying I have a solution, but I also don't believe the above is the answer.

Pylon, if I misinterpreted your intent, I apologize, I do like your general notion that rewards for proper behavior have a better long-term affect than punishment of specific infractions.


Ah, yes, sorry.  I think you misunderstood my intent in including a link to that article, but that is my fault for not having offered more explanation other than a "here, read this" statement.

If you'll notice, my opinion on the matter is pretty clear from the text of my post.  I don't engage in disciplinary action, by and large, and I think a positive reinforcement program works better on the whole.  CAP is not a reformation program for wayward teens; CAP is a program that gathers bright and inquiring minds -- our future leaders.

I was simply offering a link to a position very juxtaposed to mind; I was hoping to show other points-of-view on the matter.  I know as well as anybody else that my opinion is never the only POV out there, nor the only valid one.  I was not commenting on its effectiveness, appropriateness, nor my use or non-use of those tactics.  Sorry if I confused you on that.

My personal opinion on that matter is as I stated before.  The cadets should want to be there to learn and will want to be the most outstanding cadet.  Occassionally, cadets will need a reminder or guidance to keep them in line or doing the proper thing.  But a good cadet who is acting a bit silly and is being rowdy for a minute, a simple, verbal "Cadet Smith..." in the appropriate tone should be enough to make them more conscious of their actions.
Michael F. Kieloch, Maj, CAP

BlackKnight

#11
...
Phil Boylan, Maj, CAP
DCS, Rome Composite Sqdn - GA043
http://www.romecap.org/

flyguy06

Ohhhhhhhh. This is a big topic for me so Ithought Iwould weigh in. Icould actually start a whole new thread (which I may dolater) on what I think of the whole hazing issue as I am an old school CAPer. But I will limit this post to the topic at hand.

Perosnally,I would have made them do push ups. They were being boistruous. Which you rather have. Do some push ups with temporary pain or get written up which remains on your record for a very long time.

WHat a lotof Senior Membes (especially older ones) dont understand is these young people you will NEVER hear me refer to cadets as kids) join CAP because they want that tough in your face atmosphere. Most join becaue they want to experience a little bit of what the military life is about beause many of them have an interest. Speaking for myself who is a former cadet, thats exactly why I joined CAP. SO someone would be in my face when I messed up. Icant tell youthe benefits it gave me when I went to basic training.

Also, differant units are differant. I am in an inner city unit and that whole talking to cadets thing just wont work in my environment. Writng them up wont work either. They would just leave and we would have no unit. We as senior members have to find a way to get to cadets and develp them. Thats our mission as cadet leaders. But, hey I am going off into another area I said I wouldngo. SO, I'll leave it at that. Later

Eclipse

OK - the problem here is that we are moving into "extreme example, with extreme loophole" territory.

So he's carrying a light saber and Arkansas is Jedi-friendly, fine.

At the end of the day, he disobeyed a direct order from a superior who also happens to be a senior, and was carrying a device which, while possibly legal in a general sense, was against the rules of his organization to possess.  And he did so in a way which risks both life and property.

I also tend to infer from the general tone that this may not be a "cadet of the year type of young man, and there may be some history here.

Verbal / written reprimand, removal from authority, and possibly a demotion. 2b
pre-filled should the first three not stick. If this is a slick-sleeve or low-striper, some serious remediation of core values and discussion as to whether CAP is a good fit.

As to push-ups, sorry Fly, there's no gray area there.  Its strictly forbidden to use any physical activity in a punitive way.

"That Others May Zoom"

NIN

Quote from: Eclipse on January 08, 2006, 04:42:48 AM
Capt. Stanford (writer) is a former Marine and a member of PAWG, and this kind of attitude does not surprise me, especially considering the combination, but I do not believe these actions would be appropriate.  I believe any kind of physical activity which is punitive in nature, or singles out a cadet in front of everyone in a negative, way is verboten.

Bob, I'm surprised you actually said this.  What a cheap shot.

Oddly enough, Capt Stanford is a transplant to PA Wing (so your obvious slam to PA Wing folks misses wide of its target), formerly having been a member in both Connecticut Wing & Missouri Wing.

And if you're inferring that his Marine background predisposes him to "hazing," I think you're off the mark again in another direction.  And any number of our members who have served in the Corps will agree.

But then if this is not what you were intending to say, I will ask you directly, so you can explain yourself more fully: "What exactly do you mean by this?"

Darin Ninness, Col, CAP
I have no responsibilities whatsoever
I like to have Difficult Adult Conversations™
The contents of this post are Copyright © 2007-2024 by NIN. All rights are reserved. Specific permission is given to quote this post here on CAP-Talk only.

Eclipse

#15
This'll take us wide off the mark, but I suppose should be answered at least.

His words speak for themselves - he is advocating actions which are inappropriate and could be considered hazing.  Making a cadet salute a trash can is just plain mean, and won't make him respect or understand the courtesies any more, it will also single out the cadet in a negative, punitive light - hazing.

My comments should not surprise anyone as I have been very vocal, especially on CAPBlog, about what I think about PAWG.  Even a casual glance around PAWG websites, especially Hawk's, shows an overall predisposition towards "old school" discipline techniques and reinforcement in negative ways.  Not to mention all their nonsense bling-bling. My personal interaction is way off target for this thread, but supports the above.

That Capt. Stanford is a Marine, simply means to me that he too would be pre-disposed to discipline in ways which may be acceptable in the active components, but not in CAP.  (The RDC's up at Great lakes are always impressed by our cadets, but are also eager to "jump in and help", not always understanding that cadets are still just kids and the USN / RDC ways may be too much for a 13 year old.)  That coupled with his membership in a state which (at a minimum) actively looks the other way regarding these kinds of things, brings me to the conclusion that his attitude is not unusual in PAWG.

Just because he filtered through CN and MO first doesn't change the fact that his current combination may be a more volatile mix.  Were he to come up this way, trying those kinds of tactics, he'd be corrected immediately, not so, obviously in PAWG.

He came to the table with well-intentioned bad ideas, and no one has corrected him because those around him don't disagree.

How is that a cheap shot?

"That Others May Zoom"

footballrun21

Quote from: flyguy06 on January 09, 2006, 01:36:54 PM
Ohhhhhhhh. This is a big topic for me so Ithought Iwould weigh in. Icould actually start a whole new thread (which I may dolater) on what I think of the whole hazing issue as I am an old school CAPer. But I will limit this post to the topic at hand.

Perosnally,I would have made them do push ups. They were being boistruous. Which you rather have. Do some push ups with temporary pain or get written up which remains on your record for a very long time.

WHat a lotof Senior Membes (especially older ones) dont understand is these young people you will NEVER hear me refer to cadets as kids) join CAP because they want that tough in your face atmosphere. Most join becaue they want to experience a little bit of what the military life is about beause many of them have an interest. Speaking for myself who is a former cadet, thats exactly why I joined CAP. SO someone would be in my face when I messed up. Icant tell youthe benefits it gave me when I went to basic training.

Also, differant units are differant. I am in an inner city unit and that whole talking to cadets thing just wont work in my environment. Writng them up wont work either. They would just leave and we would have no unit. We as senior members have to find a way to get to cadets and develp them. Thats our mission as cadet leaders. But, hey I am going off into another area I said I wouldngo. SO, I'll leave it at that. Later

If cadets want the in-your-face thing, then they should go to Hawk or PJOC.  Plenty of it there.
C/2d Lt. Stephen Pettit, CAP
New Jersey Wing

flyguy06

Eclipse,

I am surprised with your comments in which you say "The RDC's up at Great lakes are always impressed by our cadets, but are also eager to "jump in and help", not always understanding that cadets are still just kids and the USN / RDC ways may be too much for a 13 year old.)"

How can you refer to cadets as kids on one post and ten on another say they are mature enoug to go out on government sponsored ES missions? The main reason I hate referring to CAP cadets as ids is tat very reason Kids dont go out and look for lost people and crashed airplanes. Kids dont perform lifesaving first aid on people. And kids dont recover dead bodies. It takes a mature, disciplined and trained individual to do this.

Ok, This will get off topic, but you got me hyped. I have absolutely no problem withthe "old school" way of doing things as long as its not taken outof hands. ANd thats wher ewe had the problem. A long time ago, we allowed cadets to discipline junior cadets and yes, some of them were immatue and took it out of hand. Thats when National steped in and said no more.

I am an adult. My goal is not to harass or intimidate young people. I have a good job, a good looking girlfriend, and good education. Trust me. I dont spend 2 hours a week working with cadets to harass them.I could be doing so many other things during that time. I work with cadets to develop them into leaders. I use the military as a vehicle to teach that leadershp. The military trains the way it does for reason. Look at basic training. You have black people, white people, poor people, rich people. People from California and peole from Tenneessee. Everyone did not gow up th same way. I knew two guys inbasic training. One guy came from a priviledged home where he never had to do anything. His maid did it all. Another guy came from the mountains of Kentuky wher ethe army was where he got his thrid pair of sohes in his life. A Drill Sergeants job is to take these very diverse people and make them into one team. In order to do that you have to start them off on  the same leve No matter what their background is.

Now, I am NOT advocateing we do this in CAP. What I am saying is that we take these young people and old them into leaders And yes, that means a little stress. I have cadets that want to be pilots. I tell them all the time, one day in your pilot career, you are going to experience an engine failure. How will you handle it? Will you get flustered and panc or will you remain calm and follow the checklist? Now is the time to practice and learn to handle stressful situations calmly.

I am saying that diciplineing cadets is not a bad thing. I talk to many cadets inmy state and they say the main thing they dnt like about CAP is the "boy scout" atmosphere. And Ihave to agree with them. I am not a baby sitter. I am a leader teaching others o be leaders.

So, someone please tell me why I am wrong onthis Why do we today coddle cadets ( I wont use the boy scout thexample because I was ne f those to and actually, my troop was pretty tough) I belive this is the reasn our cadet membeship has follen off and why many other organizatin dont give us the respect we have eaned.

Wow. that was a lot, sorry. But I neded toget that off my chest. there is more I would like tosay, but this isnt the right forum for it. Thanks for reading anyway

capchiro

Mike,

Your repsonse and the others above it are the entire reason I started this topic.  I am trying to determine the proper discipline/punishment for the cadet/situation above in my second post and determine the accepted methods of discipline/punishment utilized by squadrons across the nation.  Having taken several hazing training seminars and read the regs and knowledge base closely, I find that it is almost impossible to discipline/punish without crossing the line into hazing/harassment.  This makes it very hard to be a good squadron commander and run a tight squadron and do it by the books.  I hope we continue to get interest and reponsse to this topic as I feel it is very important.
Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
Commander
Sweetwater Comp. Sqdn.
GA154

Eclipse

For those of you who might have thought a 2b or the other suggestions were too harsh, I offer this:

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/13/teen.shot/index.html

Deputy shoots teen wielding pellet gun

CNN) -- A sheriff's deputy shot a 15-year-old he believed was armed with a 9 mm handgun at a Florida middle school Friday only to learn later that the weapon was a modified pellet gun, the Seminole County sheriff said.


"That Others May Zoom"