Required Weigh-Ins

[shorning]

So I can wear the AF style uniform in the AF but not in CAP.  That makes alot of sense. So I can't wear the uniform because I work out and take care of myself. WOW!!!!!!!!

CAP has it's regulations and the AF has theirs.  Where's the confusion?

But, no, I don't think anyone would say anything to you.  After all, look at some of the others that choose to wear the AF-style uniforms...

[Hammer]

But, no, I don't think anyone would say anything to you.  After all, look at some of the others that choose to wear the AF-style uniforms...

That's true.

[lordmonar]

So I can wear the AF style uniform in the AF but not in CAP.  That makes alot of sense. So I can't wear the uniform because I work out and take care of myself. WOW!!!!!!!!

If you were over CAP's height/weight standards you would probably be in the poor or marginal category on the USAF FIT program anyway.

CAP's height/weight standard where the old USAF standards plus 10% (or so).  So you would be a really big boy to be too fat for CAP.

[mmouw]

If you lift weights, you build muscle. Muscle is more dense than fat. That is why you weigh more.  The body fat system takes measurements from your waste, neck and chest. So no you don't have to be a big guy and still be over the weight standard. That is where the grey area was. Those who look like Mr. Universe were over the weight standard, however under 15% body fat. That is why they changed their program. Now also with body building, you need cardio as well. They is a measure of what overall condition you are in. That is why the test in the AF today consists of measurements, running, and pushups/situps.

Do I look bad in uniform? No, I don't. But by being over the weight standard, I am in violation of the standard. The way a lot of you talk, it doesn't matter what violation it is if it is broken you should have a 2b filled out. CAP should also consider waivers for not just for this, but for the other odd situations that arise.

[Hammer]

Do I look bad in uniform? No, I don't. But by being over the weight standard, I am in violation of the standard. The way a lot of you talk, it doesn't matter what violation it is if it is broken you should have a 2b filled out. CAP should also consider waivers for not just for this, but for the other odd situations that arise.

Which is why I think that if he can wear the Air Force Uniform for the Air Force, then he should be allowed to wear it for CAP as well.

[Eclipse]

Let's be honest - we're not talking about guys with tree-trunk arms that can rip phone books in half.

We're talking about guys with large package shelves who can't even buy pants that fit.

Since we don't issue uniforms, we don't have a UCMJ, and we live and die by our volunteers, we have to show some latitude and common sense.

Would I like everybody to meet the standard or be in a distinctive combo?  Yes.

But barring that, my choice is to start cranking out 2b's on the high speed copier, or work with these members to at least insure their uniforms are otherwise correct and FIT.  Also, stand up straight, and wear the correct !@#$% outerwear.

Looking good is sometimes just a matter of acknowledging where your waste really is.

Weight issues can't be fixed with a needle and a credit card, everything else can.

I also think the new distinctive combo will help this as:

A) Vanguard is going to start making larger size USAF-style pants, which will help both sides of the coin.

B) The new combo has enough mil-spec cache to satisy the wannabe and usedtobes.

[Jerry]

Sure! I expect counter-arguments when I'm debating. But the arguments that say, "Hey, I'm a 900 year old guy who used to be a cadet back in the day... blah blah blah" doesn't really make for an argument, unless you're making an attempt at a pathos argument, which doesn't work too well for me.

************************************************************

Frankly, I find the above more than a little insulting and shows your total misunderstanding of how the body ages. Obviously, you haven't arrived at that point, and like my own daughter who "knows it all and Daddy is just this dumb old guy, blah, blah", you will only know how the mechanics of the body change once you hit forty. I am not questioning the standard and I understand the reasons for it. I previously stated that I so-o-o-o- hate the sight of a CAP officer who is 350 lbs, has a huge belly hanging over his belt, and his entire appearance is sloppy and unkempt. OTH, there are *some* officers who can exceed the standard and, so long as they aren't weighed it, you'd never know the difference. Their bearing is impeccable, their uniform is sharp, and they carry themselves with the authority that befits their position while putting the best foot forward for CAP. But regulations preclude the wear of the USAF-style uniform and, therefore, they DON'T. I am 10 lbs over the standard for my height, so I cannot wear the USAF uniform (I'm working on it).  I am large-framed, broad-shouldered, but not fat. I don't over eat. But I am over the age of 55 and those who don't know what they are talking about, such as you, sir, imply that those that can't meet this standard are just lazy, or possess some other fault or or somehow deficient and, perhaps, shouldn't even be IN CAP    Witness the crack about "I'm this 900 year old guy who used to be a cadet" etc, etc.

However, many of these people WERE cadets and many of them have continued to serve CAP because they are committed to the program and wanted to contribute.  And the truly dedicated ones COMPLY with uniform regulations while they wish they COULD wear the USAF uniform. I don't even LIKE the aviator combo, but I wear it  because I must where there is *some* uniform requirement.

Retention of volunteers  requires tact and is not something one can enforce by edict.  So we must lead artfully to balance the needs of the mission and the needs of the volunteers who perform these missions. This is done at the very FIRST when a member comes in at the Level I phase. We mainly fail to fully stress the importance of uniform compliance at the outset, forgetting that many of the new members have no prior military experience. Their approach to life and "rules" is much more casual and we often overlook this. The new member simply has NO idea how important military bearing, dress, and standards ARE, and we fail to fully address the difference in CIVILIAN and MILITARY approaches to issues. We simply "buzz" over those chapters (I see it all the time) as we try to keep to our time schedule and not go past lunch!  So whose fault REALLY is it that we have issues of non-compliance?

So just you wait! One of these days, you, too, will find the weight harder and harder to keep off.   Some of us will remain slim and trim. Others will put on pounds, not because they are pigs at the table, but because their metabolism slows down and because of hereditary factors!   Life changes, bodies age, things no longer defy gravity, and we bulge and sag!
Meantime, this old boy will continue to fix radios, build antennas, manage the unit's communications needs, and advise the commander on communications policy. Sometimes I won't even WEAR a uniform depending on the setting!  (GASP!  HORRORS!)  After "900 years", even THAT gets old!   But you wouldn't understand, would you!   Now it's time for my mile run!  LOL!


Jerry

(one of those old has-been cadets with an unnumbered Mitchell)

[Chaplaindon]

Once again, writing as a chaplain who has commanded several squadrons (before becoming a chaplain), I am quite saddened to note how widespread –apparently—is the destructive attitude toward CAP members most recently espoused by Capt Bob "Eclipse" Williams.

He wrote the following regarding the issue of SMs and the h/w/grooming standards to wear the USAF uniform, "...my choice is to start cranking out 2b's on the high speed copier, or work with these members to at least insure their uniforms are otherwise correct and FIT.  Also, stand up straight, and wear the correct !@#$% outerwear."

This is just the reason we used to have an "Ethics for Command" program for SMs to mirror the Moral Leadership program for cadets.

Capt, go ahead and "whip-out" a googleplex of CAPF-2b's and bust your SMs out of the program for wearing the wrong uniform or –heaven forbid—the mortal sin of not standing up straight. Maybe we could add in some phrenelogical standards regarding "Aryan" features as well. Maybe you could "2b" folks for limping as well as slouching too.

This is absurd. Furthermore it is unethical and in a Federally funded agency like CAP (to whom Federal Non-Discrimination laws apply) it might also be illegal.

Capt, what you and others who agree with (or espouse) your myopic perspective on the membership of a volunteer organization is that your desired actions would do nothing more than render the CAP program impotent to perform any missions (except, perhaps, for enforcing Mr. Blackwell's best/worst dressed lists) by your actions. This is neither "Women's Wear Daily" nor the SS.

A 2b for a slouch—Oh come on-- what ignorance, what arrogance, what stupidity.

CAP is a volunteer organization. It does (or at least should) depend upon the collective volunteer efforts and contributions of all of its members, whether standing tall or slouching, whether marching or rolling in a wheelchair; whether USAF uni or civies. Each of these members is a patriot and is contributing to make our Nation a better place for everyone. For any SM to suggest or tolerate, let alone enforce such discriminatory practices demonstrates a near-fascist worldview to our cadets. Anyone who truly believes that one should or even conceivably COULD be 2b'd from CAP for slouching isn't morally "fit" to wear any CAP uniform and is IMHO unfit for command.

So Capt, make your copies; enforce your tyranny; model your leadership for your community's youth, and see what become of our Nation and our CAP. Can you say "smoking hole in the ground?"

I just pray that you come to your senses and put away the xerographic paper and start acting like an officer and a gentleman instead of a bigot. Lead don't discrimate.

Friends, is this what we want CAP to become (or apparently in the Palwaukee Composite Squadron already is)? No uniform "beauty-contest" is worth losing members over. But it may demonstrate that there are some intolerant members and even commanders who need to grow up.

For my $0.02, if I am the unfortunate victim of a crash and I am slowly dying from my injuries in the wilderness somewhere (and awaiting CAP to find/save me), I couldn't care less what uniform –if any—my rescuers wore from a USAF Messy Dress to the field uniform of the Lithuanian Girl Scouts ... just find me ... just save my life.

Brothers and sisters, this isn't just a harmless academic discussion CAP/USAF uniform regulations and practices. It is a life and/or death SERIOUS operational issue. No life is worth a slouch. No life is worth an intolerant enforcement of a clothing regulation. We need to value our members and their contributions over and beyond the value of the paper our regs and manuals are printed from. People should come first.

[Eclipse]

Chaplain, read what I wrote, not what you THINK I wrote, and if you feel you need to make some point regarding your lack of love for uniform regs, at least quote the whole line, not just what you think supports your argument.

What I SAID was:

"Would I like everybody to meet the standard or be in a distinctive combo?  Yes.

But barring that, my choice is to start cranking out 2b's on the high speed copier, or work with these members to at least insure their uniforms are otherwise correct and FIT.  Also, stand up straight, and wear the correct !@#$% outerwear."

The word "OR" is very important in that sentence.

Now, what I am saddened by is how oblivious many of our members are to how counterproductive poor uniform wear is.  And you know what, if I have significantly overweight members who both insist on wearing USAF blue AND can't even take the time to get pants that really fit, stand up stright, or use a ruler for their nameplate.
Maybe a 2b is the right choice - because they sure don't get it.

There is, in reality, NO PASS.  If you can't wear it right, wear a golf shirt.

Beyond that, please read my whole post before taking me to task for poor leadership and Command Ethics.

[smj58501]

This is what happens when we let regulations do our thinking for us

[Chaplaindon]

As long as you wrote [and you did] and stand by your statement regarding a "choice to start cranking out 2b's on the high speed copier," I stand by my criticism of it.

You just don't get it, leadership takes more than a CAPF-2b and a Kinkos.

[Chaplaindon]

BTW, a follow-up thought ...

If an active-duty Airman (who is compliant with USAF uniform regs) cannot meet CAP uniform standards for the wear of the same uniform (albeit with those loverly "hungry-hungry-hippo"-Gray epaulets) something is really wrong somewhere.

[Eclipse]

This is what happens when we let regulations do our thinking for us

OK - let's walk down that road.  You're a Safety Officer.  Do you get to PICK which regs you follow?

And if a member lawn-darts and airplane, is found to be in blues, overweight, and therefore out of uniform, and some corporate insurance lawyer decides, therefore, that he was not qualified to fly, so no FECA, NO FTCA, and maybe he gets personally sued for the airframe and other damages with no USAF / corporate support.

Who's fault and problem is it then?  How important does keeping that member lok now?

Which regs are important?  Reflective vests but not headgear?  Outerwear but not weight or insignia placement?  

As a CC I have the responsibility to get people to understand the issue, and work to protect them and the organization.

[Eclipse]

BTW, a follow-up thought ...

If an active-duty Airman (who is compliant with USAF uniform regs) cannot meet CAP uniform standards for the wear of the same uniform (albeit with those loverly "hungry-hungry-hippo"-Gray epaulets) something is really wrong somewhere.

Take it up w/ NHQ.

[Chaplaindon]

Regardless of which regs might be HYPOTHETICALLY violated, I would not gleefully seek to 2b anyone. It would be my absolute final move, after having axhausted all intermediate remedies.

For the record, having been a Sqdn/CC for a total of nearly 10 years (and in CAP for nearly 25), I have NEVER HAD to (or certainly CHOSE to) use a CAPF-2b, let alone contemplate the need for a high-speed photocopier to process them. Perhaps you have far more turmoil in your unit than I did in mine. Maybe thats misfortune; maybe it is poor leadership.

I do not excuse violations of regulations, but have yet to have been forced to 2b someone for a violation. There are options. Leadership, mentoring, and coaching are three options that come to mind. For the record, I would resign my command and, if needed my membership before I would of my own volition or be bullied/ordered to 2b ANYONE for a simple uniform violation. 

Furthermore, you need to remove petty and potentially biggoted comments from your posts (i.e. polemics against people/members who for one reason or another don't "stand up straight" [enough to meet your standards]). As I said such discriminatory actions could be actionable or even illegal.

Learn to lead and stop implying/stating by your ill-chosen rhetoric that your captian's bars are the "tracks" to "railroad" members out of CAP who aren't as perfect as you obviously must be.

As Jesus Christ said, "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." He didn't stone the woman in the Bible and I believe Him to be perfect whereas I, nor anyone else I've met in CAP --or in the world-- is perfect. But maybe you're the exception.

[Eclipse]

Understood.

From now on I will set the bar as low as possible to insure I never offend, insult, or make a another Senior member cry.

I will use my Command Ethics to insure everyone is happy, regardless of how it effects
the overall organization. 

I will encourage membership for EVERYONE, regardless of abilities, available time, or inclination to follow the rules.

Prefer the berets they wear in the army? Cool.

50lbs over but you used to be a cadet?  Fine. In fact just wear your old cadet pants.
Who am I to make an issue.

I will also make sure to complain loudly when we don't get respect from sister services, and other ES agencies.  Also, when those same agencies refuse to work with us?
Even more bellyaching!  Because, well, they just should, regardless of our behaviour or appearance.

Cadets calling us seamtesters and GOB's?  Do as I say, not as I do!  That's my new motto!

Oh, wait.  That's what most of the country is doing already!  Its about time I got in line.


“It is absurd to believe that soldiers who cannot be made to wear the proper uniform can be induced to move forward in battle. Officers who fail to perform their duty by correcting small violations and in enforcing proper conduct are incapable of leading.”

-“You cannot be disciplined in great things and indiscipline in small things. Brave undisciplined men have no chance against the discipline and valour of other men. Have you ever seen a few policemen handle a crowd?”
General George S. Patton Jr.

[Pylon]

This conversation is getting up there towards a 25... a much more relaxed 4 or so will do just fine.  Let's bring it down a notch or two please. 

Thanks.

[lordmonar]

This is what happens when we let regulations do our thinking for us

OK - let's walk down that road.  You're a Safety Officer.  Do you get to PICK which regs you follow?

Yes.

And if a member lawn-darts and airplane, is found to be in blues, overweight, and therefore out of uniform, and some corporate insurance lawyer decides, therefore, that he was not qualified to fly, so no FECA, NO FTCA, and maybe he gets personally sued for the airframe and other damages with no USAF / corporate support.

Who's fault and problem is it then?  How important does keeping that member lok now?

You are not out of uniform if you are overweight.  So try another scenario.

Which regs are important?  Reflective vests but not headgear?  Outerwear but not weight or insignia placement?

That is the million dollar question.  Which regs are important?  Which will cost someone their lives, which will cost us some image points with the USAF?  Which will keep us from getting sued?  This why we have commanders and commander appoint their staff.  To advise them on the relevant regulations and then the commander makes the decision.

You cannot be a slave to the regulations.  If it were that easy then they would not need commanders at all.

[Eclipse]

You are not out of uniform if you are overweight.  So try another scenario.

You are if you are wearing a USAF-Style uniform, which is the point of this thread.

[lordmonar]

You are not out of uniform if you are overweight.  So try another scenario.

You are if you are wearing a USAF-Style uniform, which is the point of this thread.

Well, we are talking somatic now...but you would be out of regs....NOT out of uniform.

Question:

Would you be denied insurance coverage if you were wearing the wrong patch on your uniform?

How about if you were wearing the wrong color T-shirt or a T-shirt that had a non-regulation logo on it?

Answer:

Of course not....so....they would not deny you coverage just because you are over weight.

The only reason why we have weight restrictions in USAF uniforms is because the USAF does not want the public to think that there a bunch of fatties IN THE AIR FORCE!  The are worried that the public would not know the difference between CAP and the Air Force.

And Bob...the point of this thread was supposed to be....could a commander require his SM's to weigh in.

The answer is of course YES.