Required Weigh-Ins

[Nathan]

I'm just playing devil's advocate, here.

My only argument is that if the SM's are going to be leaders in the CP, and the main leadership techniques that we teach in CAP (as in staff positions and such) is leading by example, then perhaps the SM's should lead by example and follow the same standards they expect the cadets to.

I'm in no way saying that such a SM would not be capable of great leadership. Then again, I'm sure that there are many people who would be great leaders who can't join the military because of asthma, and there are many people who would make great police officers... all except that they got arrested a couple of times for being stupid as a kid.

And yes, to whomever mentioned it, I have not yet had a DCC who was not capable of the PT that the cadets were, nor a DCC who could not wear the AF uniform.

[fyrfitrmedic]

 I'm a CD/C who can PT but who still at the moment doesn't meet h/w standards. I've 25+ in CAP including a smidge under nine years as a cadet. I like to think that I know what I'm doing and strive to serve as a positive leadership example to cadets.

Who the bloody hell are you to tell me otherwise, Devil's Advocate or no?

[capchiro]

Back in the late 70's, when I was on Group staff in West Palm Beach, Florida, we used to meet at a Civil Defense shelter and it was pretty neat.  The Group Communications officer was the local civil defense communications officer and he was really sharp.  We had some of the best communication training and programs in the Wing due to this member.  I doubt that he could pass a PT test as he was totally blind and probably would have had trouble running a mile or the shuttle run.  He was a valuable asset on missions and a real inspiration to all of the seniors and cadets in the Group.  Come to think about it, I don't think I ever saw him in uniform, but I'm not sure that he knew he wasn't in uniform.  I don't think he ever knew or cared what the rest of us were wearing or for that matter what he was wearing.  That is what CAP is all about.  People caring for and helping other people without regard to monetary gain.  JMHO       

[Chaplaindon]

Nathan, I think you need to look at this subject from a broader perspective.

The first broadening has to do with the fact that there are a number of distinct differences between the cadet and SM programs in CAP. One example of those differences ---one that annoys me greatly-- is that cadets are permitted (even encouraged with discounted programs) to take flight training toward a coveted private pilot's license and SMs are not allowed to do so using CAP aircraft at any price. There are differences now -- and there will be diffrences in the future.

Add to those differences --once again-- the statement of fact that the cadet program is contingent upon an active and supportive SM program. SMs who are not allowed to do some of the things that cadets can do make those cadet activities happen. For example, in order for cadets to solo at a ridiculously low price, SM CFIs take time away from home, job and family to DONATE their services to enable cadets to learn to fly. The cadet program is contingent, the SM program is essential. Making things harder on SM, making things less accomodating of them, will devastate the cadet program. Rather than trying to force SMs to be grown-up cadets, cadets should thank their "lucky stars" that there are SMs who allow the cadet program to happen.

Nathan, when was the last time you (or any of the other cadets on here) stopped a SM just to think her or him for their contributions to the cadet program?

The second perspective regarding what you called "military aspect of life." You wrote, "If SM's aren't going to be willing to meet the same standards that cadets are (such as in terms of facial hair, weight standards, etc), should they be participating as the cadets' leaders?" and that demonstrates an definite misunderstanding of how our military --broadly-- functions (albeit, CAP isn't actually the military). The US military is led --per the specification of our Constitution-- by civilians who do not wear a uniform at all.  This is the law of the land. Presuming your assertion about SMs meeting the standards of the cadet program in order to lead them was broadly applied to the US "military aspect of life" it would have precluded many of our former Commanders in Chief from their Constitutionally mandated job. If the lack of height/weight/grooming standards is acceptable and functional between the US military and its C-in-C, I fail to see why a difference between SMs and cadets concerning the same issues is problematic in the offically non-military CAP.

Maybe someone else can explain it to me ...

Nathan, I am not "jumping down your throat" but I am suggesting that you need a better and perhaps more mature perspective on this matter. Perhaps such issues of perspective are why CAP is led by SMs and not by cadets.


Mod Edit: Fixed those random strike-throughs

[Chaplaindon]

Sorry folks, I haven't a clue how the strike-through's appeared on my post ... I didn't put them there.

[Nathan]

Okay, I'm done here. I was merely posing a question, guys, come on! I wasn't looking to pick a fight, just to keep the conversation going... Crikey, it wasn't something to get your undies in a bunch about...

[Al Sayre]

The other thing you need to remember is that not all seniors want to work with cadets, it's just a sad fact of life.  If you limit who can work with cadets based on an arbitrary physical standard, you may end up limiting the pool of available SM's to run the program to ZERO.  Then there will be no cadet program.

[lordmonar]

My only argument is that if the SM's are going to be leaders in the CP, and the main leadership techniques that we teach in CAP (as in staff positions and such) is leading by example, then perhaps the SM's should lead by example and follow the same standards they expect the cadets to.

You do make a good point.  I would say that it is totally appropriate for a commander to take weight/physical fitness into account when selecting his DCC.  But to make it a REQUIREMENT for DCC's and other CP personnel, just won't work.

There are too many good CP guys who just can't or wont put in the effort to make their 50 year old bodies meet Air Force standards.  You will tend to just drive all the older folks out of CP.

[MIKE]

Then there are those of us former cadet CP types who while meeting weight and grooming standards for AF style uniforms, can't do the CPFT... I was Fitness Category IV my entire cadet career.

[Pylon]

Okay, I'm done here. I was merely posing a question, guys, come on! I wasn't looking to pick a fight, just to keep the conversation going... Crikey, it wasn't something to get your undies in a bunch about...

When you play Devil's advocate, the idea is to expect people to respond and make counter-arguments to yours.

You really aren't applying the concept of leading by example properly, either.  You're saying that Senior Members leading cadets need to fulfill every single expectation of the cadet program placed on cadets in order to be an effective leader, otherwise they're not leading by example.  Via this method, only former cadets could be Senior Members, and cadets should only be expected to promote as high as their senior members did when they were cadets.  Therefore, the only ideal Senior Member to lead in the cadet program, by your definition, would be a completely physically fit, within weight/height standards, former Spaatz cadet (who passed the first time completely) and still can hit the Spaatz PT scores, and overall participated in every aspect of the cadet program as well.  Otherwise, if the SM can't do it and hasn't, why should the cadet, right?   

Great point of view.  Let us know when you're perfect, and then you can lead cadets, too.  Otherwise you'd be a bad leader-by-example.  Mmkay?

[Nathan]

When you play Devil's advocate, the idea is to expect people to respond and make counter-arguments to yours.

Sure! I expect counter-arguments when I'm debating. But the arguments that say, "Hey, I'm a 900 year old guy who used to be a cadet back in the day... blah blah blah" doesn't really make for an argument, unless you're making an attempt at a pathos argument, which doesn't work too well for me.

You really aren't applying the concept of leading by example properly, either.  You're saying that Senior Members leading cadets need to fulfill every single expectation of the cadet program placed on cadets in order to be an effective leader, otherwise they're not leading by example. 

If we're talking about weight standards, then we're talking about weight standards. I'm saying, take this part of the program and apply it here. Cadets can't wear beards, even if they're capable of growing one, so it would be good leadership for SM's working with cadets to refrain from beards as well. Cadets have to not smoke at CAP activities, and there are cadets (like me) who are of legal age to smoke, and there are cadets (unlike me) who do smoke, so it would be good leadership for seniors to refrain from smoking during activities as well.

If cadets have to participate in PT (which is really not that challenging should a person put even 30 minutes a day to working at it), then it would make sense for seniors to do it as well as their leaders. As a leader, I do PT with my cadets, even though I promote a lot slower and usually have better things to be doing as the cadet commander of my squadron. I'm not even saying that seniors should PT, but at least work to be in the same uniform as the rest of the cadets would definetly be a plus.

Boy, I guess I'm not done with this...

Great point of view.  Let us know when you're perfect, and then you can lead cadets, too.  Otherwise you'd be a bad leader-by-example.  Mmkay?

I'm not saying I'm perfect, and I'm not saying that I'm expecting seniors to be perfect. But what I do expect out of every leader is at least an attempt. Like I said, good leaders don't order their subordinates to do things that they themselves would not do. If a leader, such as the cadet commander of a squadron, is not willing to do the PT, then I don't see what grounds he or she has of ordering others to do it.

YMMV

[Pylon]

When you play Devil's advocate, the idea is to expect people to respond and make counter-arguments to yours.

Sure! I expect counter-arguments when I'm debating. But the arguments that say, "Hey, I'm a 900 year old guy who used to be a cadet back in the day... blah blah blah" doesn't really make for an argument, unless you're making an attempt at a pathos argument, which doesn't work too well for me.

Nobody made that argument, Nathan.  Some of us were making the argument that yes, I'm older, I have more life experience, I have a master rating in CP and all of this CAP knowledge, and I was a cadet once upon a time, as well.  They're making the point that they have a lot to offer this program, not just making a pathos appeal at all.   

[Slim]

When you play Devil's advocate, the idea is to expect people to respond and make  counter-arguments to yours.

Sure! I expect counter-arguments when I'm debating. But the arguments that say, "Hey, I'm a 900 year old guy who used to be a cadet back in the day... blah blah blah" doesn't really make for an argument, unless you're making an attempt at a pathos argument, which doesn't work too well for me.

What I tried to convey was the fact that I have all of this experience and background with the cadet program.  What you propose is to waste that knowledge and experience because I don't fit your image of what a senior member should be.  I'm not making excuses here, but I'm a big person, the child of big parents.  Things like weight are most likely genetic, just like hair and eye color.  It's not that I don't lead an inactive lifestyle, it just doesn't seem to matter what I do, I can't seem to shed those pounds that racked up when my metabolism hit the brakes.  Someday you won't be able to eat the things you do now without weight gain, it will happen.

You really aren't applying the concept of leading by example properly, either.  You're saying that Senior Members leading cadets need to fulfill every single expectation of the cadet program placed on cadets in order to be an effective leader, otherwise they're not leading by example. 

If we're talking about weight standards, then we're talking about weight standards. I'm saying, take this part of the program and apply it here. Cadets can't wear beards, even if they're capable of growing one, so it would be good leadership for SM's working with cadets to refrain from beards as well. Cadets have to not smoke at CAP activities, and there are cadets (like me) who are of legal age to smoke, and there are cadets (unlike me) who do smoke, so it would be good leadership for seniors to refrain from smoking during activities as well.

Well, there are solutions to what you propose here.  Want a beard, knock yourself out.  however, because you're over 18, you'll have to wear the blazer combo and BBDUs, that's your choice.  Want to smoke at CAP?  Sorry, but you're going to have to turn senior for that one.  But, if you come to an activity I'm running, you're going to have to do it in the closet or somewhere else that cadets won't see you.  BTW, for the record, I have misgivings about that little stipulation in the regs.  You're legally an adult, can vote, can go out and serve your country;  I think cadets over 18 should be allowed (but not encouraged) to do so, as long as it meets the stipulations in the 52-16 (not in the presence of other cadets)---but that's just me. 

If cadets have to participate in PT (which is really not that challenging should a person put even 30 minutes a day to working at it), then it would make sense for seniors to do it as well as their leaders. As a leader, I do PT with my cadets, even though I promote a lot slower and usually have better things to be doing as the cadet commander of my squadron. I'm not even saying that seniors should PT, but at least work to be in the same uniform as the rest of the cadets would definetly be a plus.

I agree that that the CPFT isn't a challenge, assuming you have the time to put into it.  Some do, some don't, and for some (like me) it doesn't matter how much time you put into it, you're still going to be a big person.  As cadet commander, you say you have better things to do at meetings than promoting and PT?  Don't you think the same would apply to your DCC or unit commander?  Maybe someday, you'll be a squadron commander, with a mile long to-do list at a meeting, getting ready for a compliance inspection, dealing with other seniors and their "NSTIW" stories, etc.  All of the sudden, "Aw crap....sorry guys, I gotta drop everything I'm doing so I can go out and do PT with the troops, be back in 45 minutes."  Just ain't gonna happen.

Boy, I guess I'm not done with this...

Great point of view.  Let us know when you're perfect, and then you can lead cadets, too.  Otherwise you'd be a bad leader-by-example.  Mmkay?

I'm not saying I'm perfect, and I'm not saying that I'm expecting seniors to be perfect. But what I do expect out of every leader is at least an attempt. Like I said, good leaders don't order their subordinates to do things that they themselves would not do. If a leader, such as the cadet commander of a squadron, is not willing to do the PT, then I don't see what grounds he or she has of ordering others to do it.

Depends on your interpretation of "Attempt."  I wear my uniforms today with the same amount of pride that I did WIWAC.  I put just as much time into preparing them, everything sewn/placed properly, shined boots/shoes, ironed/starched, I keep my hair well within regulations.  I expect the same of the cadets in my unit.  I don't always get it, but that is my expectation.  I expect them to participate in PT, because it's part of their program.  I don't have to order anyone to do anything.  However, my cadets know that if they don't pass the PFT, they don't get promoted.  Just like I don't have to order my cadet commander to publish a shcedule every month.  He knows that it's part of his job.  If he doesn't live up the the expectations of his job, guess what?

YMMV

Yep, sure does

[Al Sayre]

Many of the vaunted leadership "platitudes" were said during wartime and/or combat, and I agree with them in that context wholeheartedly.  The "don't ask the troops to do something you can't or won't do" applies in those limited circumstances, such as personal comfort, going without rations, cleaning up, combat leadership etc., but in the world of paper-pushing which includes running a cadet program, it can't and doesn't fly.

Leaders frequently order their subordinates to do the things which they cannot do either because of training or ability (or lack thereof).  Do you think that the Maintenance Officer who tells the mechanic to rebuild an aircraft engine is capable of doing that him/herself?  We have most Officers for a reason, they are managers, plain and simple.  They have a broad knowledge of the requirements for a task, but leave the minutae to the people who perform the task. The Officers manage the specialists and provide them with the materials and services that they need to do their job properly and efficiently.  Yes they also provide leadership, but not the kind of "Follow me!" leadership that you are refering to, but the type of leadership that makes it possible to get all of the little jobs done.  That is the reason we have specialists and managers in most of the military's jobs.  Only about 20% of all military personnel actually see combat, the rest are the guys that make sure they have planes and vehicles that run properly, get chow on time, get the guns, bullets, boots and uniforms to where they need to be.

The seniors who run cadet programs are both specialists and managers.  They navigate through the adminstrative swamp of Cadet Programs paperwork, slaying the alligators of lost, late and missing forms.  They battle the parents, squadron staff and other senior members who try to steer the program away from its intended purpose.  They manage the Cadet Officers and NCO's, specialists themselves in the ways of drill and uniforms and computer game geekdom.  They produce the events that the Cadets enjoy and struggle to maintain the balance between fun and learning. They do all this and more while appearing to the cadets as "the old guy who can't fit in a uniform or run a PT" and are judged to be poor leaders because of the toll that time has taken on their bodies.  Many of these leaders have given parts of their bodies in the service of their country and are unable to meet the uniform standard or perform PT because of that.  So now they offer their time and experience to help lead young people down a path that will make them better citizens of their community.  If you feel that their inability to meet those physical standards precludes them from being leaders, then you really don't understand leadership at all.

[Pylon]

Many of the vaunted leadership "platitudes" were said during wartime and/or combat, and I agree with them in that context wholeheartedly.  The "don't ask the troops to do something you can't or won't do" applies in those limited circumstances, such as personal comfort, going without rations, cleaning up, combat leadership etc., but in the world of paper-pushing which includes running a cadet program, it can't and doesn't fly.

Leaders frequently order their subordinates to do the things which they cannot do either because of training or ability (or lack thereof).  Do you think that the Maintenance Officer who tells the mechanic to rebuild an aircraft engine is capable of doing that him/herself?  We have most Officers for a reason, they are managers, plain and simple.  They have a broad knowledge of the requirements for a task, but leave the minutae to the people who perform the task. The Officers manage the specialists and provide them with the materials and services that they need to do their job properly and efficiently.  Yes they also provide leadership, but not the kind of "Follow me!" leadership that you are refering to, but the type of leadership that makes it possible to get all of the little jobs done.  That is the reason we have specialists and managers in most of the military's jobs.  Only about 20% of all military personnel actually see combat, the rest are the guys that make sure they have planes and vehicles that run properly, get chow on time, get the guns, bullets, boots and uniforms to where they need to be.

The seniors who run cadet programs are both specialists and managers.  They navigate through the adminstrative swamp of Cadet Programs paperwork, slaying the alligators of lost, late and missing forms.  They battle the parents, squadron staff and other senior members who try to steer the program away from its intended purpose.  They manage the Cadet Officers and NCO's, specialists themselves in the ways of drill and uniforms and computer game geekdom.  They produce the events that the Cadets enjoy and struggle to maintain the balance between fun and learning. They do all this and more while appearing to the cadets as "the old guy who can't fit in a uniform or run a PT" and are judged to be poor leaders because of the toll that time has taken on their bodies.  Many of these leaders have given parts of their bodies in the service of their country and are unable to meet the uniform standard or perform PT because of that.  So now they offer their time and experience to help lead young people down a path that will make them better citizens of their community.  If you feel that their inability to meet those physical standards precludes them from being leaders, then you really don't understand leadership at all.

:clap:

Well said, sir.

[BillB]

During World War II, PT was a required part of the senior program. Until, someone discovered that doing PT intefered with the daily operations of the CAP units. You can't do an hour of PT and be ready to fly an early morning coastal patrol flight.  Following WW II, there was an idea to put PT back into the senior program. Until, National discovered that many of the senior members were military veterans with a degree of disability.
PT is not and has not been a part of the senior program, but it is part of the cadet program. If anyone says because cadets do it seniors working with cadets should do it has no concept of the di9fferences between senior and cadet programs. I'm not talking flying club type senior here, I'm talking about the average DCC who has more problems than any two or three other seniors combined in operating an effective cadet program. The Moral leadership officer works once a month to complete his role in the Squadron as an example. Many other senior duty assignments take less time than the DCC spends on promotion boards and paperwork. But in the existing senior program, there is no requirement for PT or any need to have such.

[mmouw]

The one thing that I find amazing is that the Air Force doesn't use the height and weight standards for a measure of fitness. In 1992 we started the ever changing body fat percentage measurement and haven't looked back. The reason being was the fact that, like myself, body building was pushing me on to the fat boy program. My max weight was 190 and I weighed 185. Being within five pounds of my max I was harassed (and I mean harassed) by my First Shirt and Squadron Commander. When we did switch over, I was vindicated. I went off the program and never heard from them again. There are flaws in every standard that you want to hold thousands of people to. CAP standard is a very limiting standard. It is in need of review and amendments. The only problem is if we went to the true AF standard then we would have to create a new senior program track. Their job would be to monitor body fat of the seniors. So I am lifting weights again, and when I go over my max I can't wear my blues? If the AF says I can then CAP would be hard pressed to tell me I can't!!!!!!!

[Hammer]

So I am lifting weights again, and when I go over my max I can't wear my blues? If the AF says I can then CAP would be hard pressed to tell me I can't!!!!!!!

Well sir, if the Air Force says you can, and CAP is the Auxillary of the Air Force, IMO you should be able to.

[MIKE]

So I am lifting weights again, and when I go over my max I can't wear my blues? If the AF says I can then CAP would be hard pressed to tell me I can't!!!!!!!

Well sir, if the Air Force says you can, and CAP is the Auxillary of the Air Force, IMO you should be able to.

Until CAP changes the policy... If you are over the CAP standard Maximum Allowable Weight for your height you can not wear the Air Force style CAP uniforms.

1. Senior members and cadets who are 18 and older must meet CAP weight standards in order to wear the AF-style uniform.

[mmouw]

So I can wear the AF style uniform in the AF but not in CAP.  That makes alot of sense. So I can't wear the uniform because I work out and take care of myself. WOW!!!!!!!!