Is this stupidity, or the smart thing to do?

[SDF_Specialist]

OK. Here's a senario I've been faced with countless times. Say you're at a SAREX. You're wearing SM or butter bars. You see a Major or Lieutenant Colonel with a major uniform infraction. You've spoken to the higher rank, and he/she seems really cool, and always willing to listen no matter what the subject it. Is it stupid to tell the higher rank that they have a uniform infraction, or is it smart to bring this to his attention, thinking he/she has no clue about it?

I ask this because the higher ranks never seem to bat an eye at the chance to tear a new one into a lower rank for a uniform infraction (those who still care that is). I've done this twice. The first time, the LTC told me thanks, that he had put it on the night before. The second time was a Major who thought his tailored flight suit (he looked like a sausage) was about to explode at the zipper (not to mention his flag was reversed). Have you ever been in this situation? What did you do?

[jimmydeanno]

It depends on how you do it - if you call them out in front of everyone of course they're going to get bent about it...

All the infractions that I've pointed out to those of higher grade than myself have just been a "just thought you might like to know" conversation between the two of us. 

Usually they appreciate that you handled it this way and were trying to 'help' them.

Sometimes you get the people that get bent out of shape anyway and just tell you "whatever", but as long as you correct them in a tactful manner, there isn't much you can do about their attitudes.

[davedove]

You pull them aside and, giving them the respect due to their grade, inform them of the infraction.

If they ignore you, there's not much else you can do.

Don't forget to pull them aside when you do this.  There's no need to point out their error in front of others.  Actually, the same goes when correcting lower grades as well.  Remember, praise in public, correct in private.

[SDF_Specialist]

Yeah, exactly. I would never call a senior officer out in front of a crowd, and I would hope that the number of people who would would be small. The major I called out, it was in his office, just he and I, door closed. He thought his tailored flight suit looked sexy. At least that's what his wife told him. I wanted to tell him that sexy was the opposite of what it was, but I'm not that stupid.

[SDF_Specialist]

You pull them aside and, giving them the respect due to their grade, inform them of the infraction.

If they ignore you, there's not much else you can do.

Don't forget to pull them aside when you do this.  There's no need to point out their error in front of others.  Actually, the same goes when correcting lower grades as well.  Remember, praise in public, correct in private.

I was a member of a unit that did the opposite. Praise in private, correct in public. I guess that's what made me get this thread out there.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I always approached an officer senior in grade, in private, as if I was seeking his guidance and counsel.

"Sir, I wonder if you could help me out on something.  I've read CAPM 39-1, and the way I understand it, you are supposed to wear a reversed American flag on the right BDU sleeve.  I noticed that you have a Polish flag.  I have no way of telling if it is reversed or not.  Are we allowed to wear foreign flags?"

Of course, you could use this no matter what the violation is.

This way, if, in fact I am screwed up and didn't get the most recent change to 39-1, he can perform his duty of advising me.  If he is wrong, he can pretend to look it up for me, and "Suddenly realize" his error.  Nobody has to look foolish or get upset.

[floridacyclist]

Awesome way to handle that. I like it. Most people like to feel needed and helpful..at the same time, if he discovers his own error, he can still feel smart.

[SDF_Specialist]

Yeah, that is a great way to point it out. I would say just be careful as to how you say it. The senior grade may think you are trying to be a smarta%*, and tell you to get out of their office, or just get a way from them. I still like the wording in that statement.

[Eclipse]

As long as you pay him the courtesies due his grade, one adult should be able to provide assistance to another adult with regards to his uniform without it being a problem.

You are doing them a favor, as likely others have noted the issue and not had the courtesy to point it out.

[LeoBurke]

Seems to me like it doesn't matter if the person is of higher or lower grade.

Bring the matter up privately and respectfully, you should get a positive response.  If not, there is not much you can do about.

With Senior Members (like all humans) you will find the occasional weiner, but most people want to do the right thing.  Remember, many adults don't have the time or inclination to read through 5000 pages of regulations.  You may think the uniform manual is the most important 60 pages to be read in CAP.  But it's not.  There are others (ops, safety, finance, legal) that protect lives and the organization.  They tend to get much more focus from the adult population.

With senior members, its usually ignorance, not insubordination that results in uniform infractions.

MORE importantly, IMHO, is how you raise it with a subordinate.  Do you make a big, loud scene, while inspecting the flight?  After you find a mistake, do you advise your subordinates how to correct it?

BTW, I love my my tailored *utility flying attire* nothing like a fat guy in a tight uniform.....

[IceNine]

Done respectfully, in private.  There is no reason not to let them know.

A few years ago, about 2 days after I got my Mitchell I went to national conference.  walked past the Nat/CC who had his stars on upside down.  I was scared to death but I pulled him aside and let him know.  He thanked me, RAN to the bathroom and as he passed me again when he walked out he said "I was about to meet with the NEC, you just saved me from looking like a fool" and then he handed me a challenge coin.

Everyone makes mistakes, as long as you're not "calling them out" your good.

[NIN]

I've had similar situations, and always handled it in a "Uh, sir, are you aware that...?" way that was very non-confrontational.  As a more senior officer now, I have had people say things to me and try to handle what they thought was an infraction in a "less than professional manner."

I wear my flight cap with a little "fishtail" in it.  Just a habit, put it on, fishtail the back.  Not like the darn Thunderbirds (I always wondered after I became a cadet: Do they get *special* flight caps, 'cuz theirs look a LOT different than everybody elses. Then I realized it was just a fighter pilot thang...<GRIN>), but just with a little kink.

I'm at encampment for graduation this summer and talking to a bunch of cadet officers when one cadet officer, who I do not know very well, says loudly "Uh, sir, your flight cap is on wrong."

I can see he's looking at the little kink in the top at the rear.

"It is?" I feign, "Oh, well, then, let me fix it!" and I re-do the fishtail.

"There, its right now.   Oh, you were talking about that little fishtail?  Yeah, you should spend some time around an Air Force base before you question those kinds of things.."

Now, WIWAC, I wouldn't have said Boo! to a Lt Col in a haunted house.   Nope. No siree.  If I saw a Lt Col with his flightcap on sideways like Napoleon, I would have saluted, said "Good morning, sir," and then found someone like an Lt or Capt to say "er, I just saw Lt Col Bagodonuts with his flight cap on crosswise.  Can someone help him out?"  But this cadet just felt it was his time and place to blurt out in front of a half dozen other cadet officers "Sir, your flight cap is on wrong."

Now, if he'd have said "Hey, uh, sir, did you intend for your flight cap to have that little kink in the top of it?" I would have said "Sure do, and here's why.."

[SARMedTech]

I know this gets brought up every time we have a uniform wear thread, BUT... Is it so frigging hard to wear uniforms properly, no matter how much crapola bling you wear. The other day I saw Gen. Peter Pace on TV (an older clip) as well as an older piece of footage of Gen. Patraeus (sp). Now I dont pretend to be an absolute expert on all things militaria, but Im guessing that their bling and ribbons and bows and bobbles were all correctly placed. How frigging hard is it? I know people are going to say that the CAP uniform regs can be confusing. More confusing than the USMC uniform regs? Or the Coast Guard?  Probably not. But I see Adm. Allen doing a pretty good job of it. Maybe its because I, at different times, only wear my EMT insignia, my GT badge and/or my membership ribbon, but I still know enough to know when higher rankers than me have botched it.

[mdickinson]

What Eclipse said:

As long as you pay him the courtesies due his grade, one adult should be able to provide assistance to another adult with regards to his uniform without it being a problem. You are doing them a favor, as others [may] have noted the issue and not had the courtesy to point it out.

I do my best to wear everything exactly properly, but occasionally I still screw up. (Some of those uniform regs are pretty [darn] vague/confusing! And it doesn't help much when there's a half-dozen "CAP/CC letters" modifying the reg...)

Anyway, I would much rather find out about my mistake Now as opposed to Later! Like the General in mfd1506's example, if something's wrong, I'm morbidly embarrassed, and want to fix it ASAP, before a single other person sees me with it wrong. Our organization does have a few "whatever way I do it is correct because I say so" jerks, but aside from them, doesn't everyone else feel the same way?

So I'm just as interested now (as a Lt Col) as I was as a SM, in finding out about anything that might be wrong. But as said so eloquently by the posters below, it's all in how you phrase it. 

Better to say "hmm, I noticed you're wearing your Gill Robb Wilson ribbon with the yellow half to your left... I always thought the yellow half went to the wearer's right - is that correct?" than to say "Sir, your ribbon is on backwards." And (perhaps most important), if the person says "no, I've got it the right way," don't argue! Just let it go.

[dwb]

I can't help but find uniform infractions on other people.  I don't know why, I just find myself looking over someone's uniform when I see it.

I've been busted in the past leering at a uniform violation when in conversation with somebody.  It's like fixating on a gigantic pimple on their nose.  People who know how I am will pick up on it and say "is there something wrong with my uniform?"

Sometimes I can't help myself, and I just blurt it out, interrupting whatever conversation that person was in.  I'm like the cadet that corrected NIN in front of others.  I've gotten more tactful over the years, but sometimes I just walk into the room, and I see something so obvious, I feel compelled to announce it. 

As long as it is done with proper courtesy, most people appreciate the correction.

[SJFedor]

It's all about the tact.

Not too terribly long ago, I noticed that a Wing Commander I was working with had one set of beaks facing the wrong way. I quietly took him aside and said "Sir, I think your beaks may be facing the wrong direction." He laughed, said "Oops, it was 3am when I was getting dressed, too dark and I musta put them on wrong" and thanked me for letting him know.

Life went on. People should be able to take constructive critisizm as long as you're not being a mean person about it. Running up to someone and saying "Your uniform looks like you just crapped it out and slapped it on" is definitely not the way to approach it.

[RiverAux]

1.  Make sure your uniform is 100% before you say anything.
2.  Be 100% confident you are right in telling somebody else something is wrong with their uniform. 
3.  Do it in private.

Most folks will probably appreciate it, while others don't care about the uniform anyway and will ignore it. 

[mikeylikey]

1.  Make sure your uniform is 100% before you say anything.

Why?  My uniform can be jacked up too, and if I mention something to another member, he or she may mention something to me about my problem!

[LeoBurke]

I'm at encampment for graduation this summer and talking to a bunch of cadet officers when one cadet officer, who I do not know very well, says loudly "Uh, sir, your flight cap is on wrong."

I can see he's looking at the little kink in the top at the rear.

"It is?" I feign, "Oh, well, then, let me fix it!" and I re-do the fishtail.

"There, its right now.   Oh, you were talking about that little fishtail?  Yeah, you should spend some time around an Air Force base before you question those kinds of things.."

Now, if he'd have said "Hey, uh, sir, did you intend for your flight cap to have that little kink in the top of it?" I would have said "Sure do, and here's why.."

All this time I thought it was that head was shaped weird.  Even if it's not the reason, your head is shaped weird.  Kinda like Beavis....

[Hawk200]

I know this gets brought up every time we have a uniform wear thread, BUT... Is it so frigging hard to wear uniforms properly, ....

Probably a lot harder than some might think. There was the Air Force major on CNN that had an epaulet on backwards (the leaf was toward his collar on one side).

I was in an Air Force tech school, and one morning our instructor came in. I looked at him for a second, and then said "Uh, Sergeant...How many stripes do you really need?". He had a shirt on with stripes sewn on the sleeve, and had put shoulder marks on the epaulettes too. He glanced down, started taking off the shoulder marks, and replied "Guess I think I need more when I get dressed in the dark." We laughed about it, he was good natured. He was actually one of my favorite instructors.

But little slipups do happen.

[Hawk200]

I wear my flight cap with a little "fishtail" in it....

Always looked like a ducktail to me....

[NIN]

All this time I thought it was that head was shaped weird.  Even if it's not the reason, your head is shaped weird.  Kinda like Beavis....

<beavis>
"Shut up, a$$munch!"
</beavis>

(Full disclosure: I've known Leo since we were cadets together in 1981.  I get to use my Beavis voice on him...)

[SDF_Specialist]

I know this gets brought up every time we have a uniform wear thread, BUT... Is it so frigging hard to wear uniforms properly, ....

Probably a lot harder than some might think. There was the Air Force major on CNN that had an epaulet on backwards (the leaf was toward his collar on one side).

I was in an Air Force tech school, and one morning our instructor came in. I looked at him for a second, and then said "Uh, Sergeant...How many stripes do you really need?". He had a shirt on with stripes sewn on the sleeve, and had put shoulder marks on the epaulets too. He glanced down, started taking off the shoulder marks, and replied "Guess I think I need more when I get dressed in the dark." We laughed about it, he was good natured. He was actually one of my favorite instructors.

But little slipups do happen.

He wasn't a Major, he was a Lieutenant Colonel. Talk about insult to injury.

[NIN]

I can't help but find uniform infractions on other people.  I don't know why, I just find myself looking over someone's uniform when I see it.

I've been busted in the past leering at a uniform violation when in conversation with somebody.  It's like fixating on a gigantic pimple on their nose.  People who know how I am will pick up on it and say "is there something wrong with my uniform?"

Sometimes I can't help myself, and I just blurt it out, interrupting whatever conversation that person was in.  I'm like the cadet that corrected NIN in front of others.  I've gotten more tactful over the years, but sometimes I just walk into the room, and I see something so obvious, I feel compelled to announce it. 

As long as it is done with proper courtesy, most people appreciate the correction.

Many years ago, I was at my first NH Wing conference only having just moved there a few months before. Married life was taking its toll on me (I had a "middle management" problem with the wife pregnant with our first, if you take my meaning..) and I was still wearing the old-style service coat that I had bought when I was around 25 and a LOT thinner.

So I'm in a group of people that included the MA Wing commander, Eric Schollman, and Curt Lafond, then our CP director at Wing (now Chief of Cadet Programs at NHQ) and we're shooting the breeze when I notice Col Schollman edging behind Curt on the other side of this little circle of people, sort of hiding behind him, putting Curt between us.

"Sir, what the hell are you doing?" I asked.

"I'm looking at those buttons on your service coat and when they come flying off I want to be out of the line of fire."

Talk about embarassing (yeah, I'd been putting on some weight, and yeah, at the time I was over the weight standards, but geeez...)

[SDF_Specialist]

Gee NIN, that comment seemed a little uncalled for. RHIP.

[O-Rex]

I love to tell this story:

We had a group command & staff call on a military base, and one individual was wearing white athletic socks with 1550's ( ! )  We break for lunch and another member comes back with a PX bag, and before the meeting resumes, pulls the offending member aside and asks, "when is your birthday?"  White Sox answers "Oh, it was last month."  The other member hands him the bag, with a pair of black $1 dress socks and says "happy belated birthday."  White socks disappear, and the world went back to spinning on it's proper axis.

[topsecret]

What did you do?

The way I learned to do it on active duty was the same for those senior and junior to me.  Ask for a moment of their time to "ask them a question," and then privately and politely let them know.  Not in a gotcha manner, not condescendingly, but let them know.

We're all teammates regardless of grade.  I'd want my teammate to let me know if I was out of regs (be it a missing nametag, unzipped fly, etc).  Any mature person should want to know as well.