Penalizing Cadets for Uniform Wear

[jimmydeanno]

Here's a topic, might be interesting - and if it's in the wrong spot, please let me know.

This is out of the new CAPM 52-4, National Cadet Competition.

For the purpose of this discussion we will deal only with the National Cadet Drill Team Competition for citation purposes.

3-2. UNIFORM.

a. All uniform items must be worn in accordance with CAPM 39-1, Civil Air Patrol Uniform
Manual.
b. The authorized uniform for male cadets is the short-sleeve blue shirt (with epaulets), with tie
and tie-tac (or tie bar but the team must be standardized) and blue trousers. The authorized uniform
for female cadets is the short-sleeve blue blouse (with epaulets), with tab and blue slacks or skirt.
c. Ribbons, white shoulder cord, and flight caps will be worn. Taps on shoes are not authorized.

I recently posed and inquiry one of the fine folks at NHQ (who shall remain nameless) about this policy.  My inquiry was this:

"As the rules currently stand, there is no stipulation for a cadet over the age of 18 who does not meet the weight standards to wear the AF Style SS Blues uniform.  Should this rule be amended to include the wear of the new Corporate Style SS uniform in this case?" - not the exact wording, but close enough.

Here is the response:

Hi Jimmy,

Actually any changes of that nature would have to be approved by the National Board so your wing/region commander is the most appropriate person to make the argument to.

However, since the teams are graded on uniformity, any team having a member in a different uniform would be penalized for the disparity in addition to any performance errors. 

Some other activities are making a provision for cadets to wear a different uniform if they cannot wear the AF style uniform combinations and it will have to be addressed eventually.

Thanks for the input.

So essentially, a cadet that doesn't meet the weight standards could participate, but probably wouldn't because they'd be an automatic penalty for their team.  So the stage is set, in all honesty, to prohibit overweight cadets from participating in NCC.

Does anyone see anything wrong with this?

[dwb]

I'd have to assume this is basically a non-issue, given the cadets I've seen participating in NCC (most of which look like stick figures).

Still, it's probably a gap in the way the manual is written, but I don't see it getting addressed any time soon.

[capchiro]

Since we are only discussing an optional part of the program and not a required part of it, is it not akin to saying that blind cadets cannot attend National Flight Academies?  Since participation is optional, I don't see a real problem with it, anymore than a cadet in a wheelchair couldn't participate either.  Overweight is either a disability or it is something a person can do something about, depending upon your philosophical beliefs.  As such, it should be treated as one or the other and the cadet either lose the weight or recognize the limitations imposed by his handicap.  Sounds harsh, but at 18, he should be able to deal with the real world.  And no, I don't need to hear about ADA from anyone as that is part of my profession..

[Flying Pig]

Why did you even ask that? The stage isnt set to prevent anyone from participating at NCC. Your making it sound like its some sort of ADA violation/conspiracy. 

[jimmydeanno]

Participation in CAP is optional isn't it...

This is why I asked for those of you who want to know...

2. Civil Air Patrol Policy of Nondiscrimination. It is Civil Air Patrol policy that no member shall be excluded from participation in, denied the benefits of, or subjected to discrimination in any CAP program or activity on the basis of race, sex, age, color, religion, national origin, or disability (formerly handicap).

Qualified Member with a Disability" means a CAP member with a disability who, either with or without reasonable accommodation, can perform the essential functions required by a CAP program or activity that such CAP member desires to participate in.

I don't think it is too much to ask that ALL CADETS be eligible to participate in the National CADET competition.  There isn't any events they wouldn't be able to participate in.  Isn't this the reason they have ALTERNATE uniforms in the first place?

[Ned]

While individuals can and do vary, I would suspect that >18 cadets who do not qualify to wear the USAF-style uniform might also be challenged in the mile run and vollyball phases of the competition.

I can't think of a fair way to statistically "normalize" the scores on the mile run for cadets handicapped by obesity.

But I'm open to suggestions.

[jimmydeanno]

Cadets of any weight can and do have varying degrees of difficulty running the mile.  That is to be expected, but at least those that don't weigh "X" amount of pounds are allowed to participate, even if they already run a 16 minute mile.

The purpose of the Cadet Competition is to create a team and balance strengths with weaknesses to come out victorious.  True, an overweight cadet might not run the fastest mile, but he/she may rock at quiz bowl, inspection, written exam or volley ball.

But no, instead we say, "you can't have a fat kid over 18 on your team."  If he was 17 he'd be allowed to participate... (isn't that age discrimination?)

One of the comments before about NFA and blind kids doesn't work, because we aren't talking about a real safety issue such as flying a plane without being able to see.  The worst that happens is the kid runs a slow mile or doesn't run it at all - they still have to participate in CPFT at the local squadron, so what's the difference?

[capchiro]

Well, if a cadet is CAT III or IV, they do notate a way to give them a score in the mile run.  That being said, and I can't remember exactly where to look, Aren't all cadets exempt from the weight standards?  I have a seen a lot of obese cadets at encampments running around in their blues and BDU's.  Is there some change for 18-21 year old cadets?  I don't think so, but I may be wrong.  If there is no change then it would be okay for an obese 18 year old cadet to wear the blues and go to National competition and embarrass themselves and their peers/teammates to death.  Now why would you want to set them up for that type of failure??  I mean, after all, they do grade on presentation.  On the other hand, I would think there might also be the question of whether the obese cadet could perform the essential functions required by the activity, if blues are required and the Reg's say they can't wear them??

[Flying Pig]

Being someone who competed a few times at NCC, here is what I would do.  If that cadets is over 18 (an adult), I would tell them they are still a part of the team and can come as an alternate, or turn senior and come as an advisor.  There are 16 other people on the team who cannot afford to be placed in a situation where they are already starting at a disadvantage because of one team member.  NCC is an arena where 1st and 2nd are often separated by only a couple of points.   You cannot place your team, nor yourself in that postion.

I speak from experience.  We had cadet on our NCC team who couldnt run or play volleyball.  After we won Region, she was set as an alternate.  The team couldnt carry her anymore.  We were conitnually needing improving  our mile times to make up for that cadets 8:30+ times.  We tried and tried to get the cadet up to the level of the rest of the team and it didnt work.  The cadet was NOT a slacker, but the cadets best wasn't good enough for that level of competition.  And the rest of us had worked to hard for to many years to get to where we were.   My team went to NCC 3 times.  I didnt make the Drill Team the first year we went to NCC because I couldnt run fast enough.  Guess what.....I worked at it.  Im one of those people who doesn't believe everyone should get to play just because they want to.  It looks to me that CAP/NCC has set a requirement to participate, and that requirement looks like you need to meet the weight standards to wear the AF uniform.

[jimmydeanno]

Well, if a cadet is CAT III or IV, they do notate a way to give them a score in the mile run.

Yes they do:

c. If a team has fewer than the mandatory number of cadets for the NDTC or for the NCGC
Mile Run event, for any reason other than approved Category III or IV status, each absent cadet will be given a score 30 seconds slower than the individual time recorded for the overall slowest cadet in the Mile Run. A cadet who is Cat III or Cat IV will be given a score equal to the individual time recorded for the overall slowest cadet in the Mile Run.

That being said, and I can't remember exactly where to look, Aren't all cadets exempt from the weight standards?  I have a seen a lot of obese cadets at encampments running around in their blues and BDU's.  Is there some change for 18-21 year old cadets?  I don't think so, but I may be wrong.

Here's the quote:

NOTES:
1. Senior members and cadets who are 18 and older must meet CAP weight standards in order to wear the AFstyle
uniform.

If there is no change then it would be okay for an obese 18 year old cadet to wear the blues and go to National competition and embarrass themselves and their peers/teammates to death.  Now why would you want to set them up for that type of failure??

I hardly think that if an obese cadet made it to National Competition they would be an embarassment.  I guess fat kids should just sit down, shut up, and let the thin kids have all the fun.  I mean, afterall, why would we want to build self esteem and motivation in a fat kid... (sarcasm)

I mean, after all, they do grade on presentation.

Yes, they do grade on presentation.  How the cadet wears his uniform - are his ribbons on right, is his insignia on correctly, does his gigline line up.  The grading isn't based on how far his stomach extends past his belt.  

On the other hand, I would think there might also be the question of whether the obese cadet could perform the essential functions required by the activity, if blues are required and the Reg's say they can't wear them??

I don't see the question of their ability here...

[Flying Pig]

Were talking about an 18 year old adult who  has chosen to place themselves in that sitation.  The shelters of childhood are over.  Welcome to reality.

[jimmydeanno]

Being someone who competed a few times at NCC, here is what I would do.  If that cadets is over 18 (an adult), I would tell them they are still a part of the team and can come as an alternate, or turn senior and come as an advisor.  There are 16 other people on the team who cannot afford to be placed in a situation where they are already starting at a disadvantage because of one team member.  NCC is an arena where 1st and 2nd are often separated by only a couple of points.   You cannot place your team, nor yourself in that postion.

I speak from experience.  We had cadet on our NCC team who couldnt run or play volleyball.  After we won Region, she was set as an alternate.  The team couldnt carry her anymore.  We were conitnually needing improving  our mile times to make up for that cadets 8:30+ times.  We tried and tried to get the cadet up to the level of the rest of the team and it didnt work.  The cadet was NOT a slacker, but the cadets best wasn't good enough for that level of competition.  And the rest of us had worked to hard for to many years to get to where we were.   My team went to NCC 3 times.  I didnt make the Drill Team the first year we went to NCC because I couldnt run fast enough.  Guess what.....I worked at it.  Im one of those people who doesn't believe everyone should get to play just because they want to.  It looks to me that CAP/NCC has set a requirement to participate, and that requirement looks like you need to meet the weight standards to wear the AF uniform.

I too have competed in NCC several times and trained a CG team to National.

Unfortunately too many people have the mindset you do in which winning the competition takes precedence over the true spirit of the competition.  If the kid was good enough to help the team make it through region competition why would you pull him and tell him he's not good enough to try at the national competition.

In your case, the female cadet is given a 1.5 minute reduction on their mile time.  I'm sorry if you feel that a 7:00 mile is too slow for your team.

"The team couldn't carry her anymore." So really, what you had was a bunch of individuals.  If the team wasn't willing to compete with their team, it is unfortunate and they don't understand the competition.

You said you weren't fast enough to make the team the first year, but apparantly she was good enough to make the team and at the last minute, you told her she couldn't compete.  What a shame.

[jimmydeanno]

Were talking about an 18 year old adult who  has chosen to place themselves in that sitation.  The shelters of childhood are over.  Welcome to reality.

Then I guess CAP shouldn't allow 18 year olds to remain cadets then, should they...

[Flying Pig]

Do you want my opinion?

[afgeo4]

I think it's terrible to make cadets meet weight standards to wear the USAF style uniform after they reach 18. Why? It obviously impedes on their participation in the program and if it's ok for a 17 year old, why not an 18 year old? It has no impact on the Air Force.

17 year olds can enlist, so where did they get the "18" number? It's almost the same as telling a cadet that since he/she is overweight and 18 they have to turn Senior.

[jimmydeanno]

^
Here's the quote:

NOTES:
1. Senior members and cadets who are 18 and older must meet CAP weight standards in order to wear the AF style uniform.

[Flying Pig]

"The team couldn't carry her anymore." So really, what you had was a bunch of individuals.  If the team wasn't willing to compete with their team, it is unfortunate and they don't understand the competition.

Nope, we had 15 team members and one individual.  Some may think Im a little harsh.  But I guess after 8 years in the Infantry and 10 years as a law enforcement officer, my view of a Team is one where everybody pulles an equal weight. Not part of the weight hoping everyone else will pick up the slack.  Have you ever done log drills?  There is a difference between diversity of skills and a weak link.

[afgeo4]

"The team couldn't carry her anymore." So really, what you had was a bunch of individuals.  If the team wasn't willing to compete with their team, it is unfortunate and they don't understand the competition.

Nope, we had 15 team members and one individual.  Some may think Im a little harsh.  But I guess after 8 years in the Infantry and 10 years as a law enforcement officer, my view of a Team is one where everybody pulles an equal weight. Not part of the weight hoping everyone else will pick up the slack.  Have you ever done log drills?  There is a difference between diversity of skills and a weak link.

Don't know where you learned to place competition before people, but you better stop doing that soon. CAP isn't there to win contests. We're there to train cadets. ALL OF THEM.

The challenge in that lies in exactly the situation you described. Not in elimination of the weakest link, but in figuring out how to strengthen the link. THAT is leadership.

Now I understand that in the real military, the mission comes first, but... the mission isn't combat here. The mission is to train cadets in teamwork, leadership, and how to overcome obstacles of life. Avoiding those obstacles isn't overcoming them.

Maybe you've succeeded as a drill team, but I think you've failed as a TEAM.

[DHollywood]

CAP is NOT the boy scouts....   (or girls scouts)   

[ZigZag911]

I speak from experience.  We had cadet on our NCC team who couldnt run or play volleyball.  After we won Region, she was set as an alternate.  The team couldnt carry her anymore.  We were conitnually needing improving  our mile times to make up for that cadets 8:30+ times.  We tried and tried to get the cadet up to the level of the rest of the team and it didnt work.  The cadet was NOT a slacker, but the cadets best wasn't good enough for that level of competition. 

Were your standards as stringent for the CAP knowledge test?

It stands to reason there had to be one or two really poor performers there, possibly with learning disabilities?

Did those cadets also get cut from the team??

[jimmydeanno]

Perfect, and IG has come into the discussion.

How would you, as an IG, handle a complaint filed by an 18 year old cadet who claimed that they were discriminated against because they weren't allowed to participate in the National Cadet Competition due to their weight and age, even though CAPs non-discriminiation policy states that CAP members shall not be excluded from any activity on the basis of age or disability?

[afgeo4]

CAP is NOT the boy scouts....   (or girls scouts)   

So that's why there aren't any cookies at my meetings?

Seriously though... we aren't the boy scouts, but we do have some similarities. Leadership training for the youth is one of the primary goals for both organizations. 52-16 will help you catch up

[Sgt. Savage]

Right or wrong, the reg is crystal clear. Over 18 must meet height / weight.

[afgeo4]

Right or wrong, the reg is crystal clear. Over 18 must meet height / weight.

Thank you Sgt and you're right. That's what the reg says.

However, we wouldn't be officers (or occifers, whichever you'd prefer) if we didn't argue validity and sanity of at least some regulations.

After all, part of our job is to make (and change) policy.

[jimmydeanno]

Right or wrong, the reg is crystal clear. Over 18 must meet height / weight.

"All it takes for evil to triumph in the world is for good men to do nothing."- Edmond Burke

[Flying Pig]

Were your standards as stringent for the CAP knowledge test?

It stands to reason there had to be one or two really poor performers there, possibly with learning disabilities?

Did those cadets also get cut from the team??

The Deputy Commander for Cadets along with the DT commander cut several people for various reasons.  Just because you make the team, doesn't mean you stayed on the team.  You earn your spot everyday.  And not just in CAP.  This is a lesson that extends far beyond anything to do with NCC or CAP. Our culture is that if I dont make the standards, I file a complaint and get the rule changed.  It doesnt matter that thousands have come before me without any issue.

I have never been part of a real team that had it any other way.   Being part of a team means we all earned the right to be here.  That 18-year-old-cadet knew that when they hit 18 they would no longer be able to meet the standards and would then either be penalized or removed.  What steps did he/she take to prevent it?  Thats seems to be the issue.  Instead, we just change the regulation, and throw out quotes that people are evil for wanting to stick to the standard.  We are not taking into account the message that it sends to the other cadets who were prepared and met the established standard.

afgeo4
Don't know where you learned to place competition before people, but you better stop doing that soon. CAP isn't there to win contests. We're there to train cadets. ALL OF THEM.


Then someone needs to get a hold of NCC and tell them to stop awarding trophies.  Your right, we are here to train all cadets, but we are not here to make excuses for people who dont meet the standard.  Especially making excuses for adults who failed to prepare for what they knew was coming. You want to talk about preparing a cadet for life?  There it is. 
You dont make it to NCC and not know whats expected.  The cadet went through Group, Wing and Region before NCC.  That time frame spans about 9 months.  The cadet failed the team. The team didn't fail the cadet.

Im curious what world you all live in?  In what vocation or profession are people allowed to stay on even after they no longer meet the standard.  There isnt one.  If the cadet is invaluable to the team, keep them on and take the hit.  If there are others who meet the standard, still, keep him on and penalize the other prepared cadets who are waiting their turn.

I had an officer when I was on SWAT who was a true leader on the team.  When the time came that he could no longer make the PFT scores, he resigned and made a place for a new member.  Thats a leader.  He didnt make excuses, nor ask for the scores to be lowered.  When I was in the military, it would be unheard of to ask for the regs to be changed so you could stay on.  And none of us were evil because of it.  We were all adults, just like this cadet we are talking about.  So what can this cadet take from this?  A lack of planning on your part doesn't constitute an emergency on mine, nor do we all need to change the regs to accomodate one persons lack of preparedness.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Competition is different than the regular program.  I played football, and was prtyy good in HS, but I was not good enough for the NFL.  Should I sue?

A person can meet the minimum standards of the program, but competition is for the super-achievers.  If a cadet isn't good enough for competition due to his or her physical condition, then the cadet is a drag on the team.  Find someone who isn't.

[ZigZag911]

Flying Pig, your answer is somewhat ambiguous.

Were the same exacting standards applied in all areas of the competition?

Were they applied equally to all cadets?

[jimmydeanno]

In all actuality, I have no problem with team "try-outs" and selecting the best of that group, however, the issue I am posing simply put, eliminates the possibility of these cadets from even trying out - never mind actually making the team.

[afgeo4]

Competition is different than the regular program.  I played football, and was prtyy good in HS, but I was not good enough for the NFL.  Should I sue?

A person can meet the minimum standards of the program, but competition is for the super-achievers.  If a cadet isn't good enough for competition due to his or her physical condition, then the cadet is a drag on the team.  Find someone who isn't.

Oh yes... but... height/weight isn't equal to your physical condition. That's why people get taped in the military to figure out their BMI. I have a few friends who are Security Police and they're also amateur bodybuilders. They weigh considerably more than regulations allow, but have very little body fat and are in GREAT shape. They get taped every time and pass it with flying colors, every time.

CAP doesn't allow for taping. We just have height/weight. Thus, these cadets may be in amazing shape and still not even allowed to try out for the team. It's bad for the cadets, bad for the team, and VERY bad for CAP. Should there be a lawsuit? I don't think so, but we shouldn't need a lawsuit to fix something that's obviously not 100% right.

[capchiro]

Ahhh, the old BMI argument.  Most, I would dare say 95% of the people that don't meet the weight standard are not so muscle bound that they bust the scale.  They are obese.  Exceptions can always be found, but regulations require uniformity and exceptions do not fall within the standards and the reason is that they are"exceptions".  Remember also that CAP weight standards are slightly higher than Air Force standards  thereby allowing for a little fudge factor.   Little pun there.  One fo the great problems with the country today is the dumbing down of society by the inclusion of all.  By mainstreaming children in classrooms that can't keep up and the teacher having to teach at the lowest level, thereby ignoring my child, the gifted one.  So as we move all of the sheep together, who is going to train the sheepdogs.  You know the ones that we will expect to  cover our rears tomorrow??  Not all men are created equal.  Every man may be expected to work to his highest level of potential, but for crying out loud, why keep back the good ones so the mediocre ones can feel good about themselves?  Perhaps we should encourage them to do whatever they can exceed at and let it go.  If the person is obese or too tall, they won't get a seat in a fighter in the Air Force.  Sad?? Yes!!  Disheartening?  Yes.  Real?? Yes!  If this cadet hasn't realized he's over the weight limit and therefore not cream of the crop by now, he certainly has led a well sheltered and protected life and now it's time to wake up and smell the coffee or diet-slim or something..

[afgeo4]

I agree with you and when it comes to an adult trying out for a job it's certainly a "are you qualified?" kind of approach, but we're not a job. We're a volunteer organization tasked with teaching young men and women good citizenship and leadership. If one day NHQ took away all the competitions and our military style uniforms and drill and ceremonies, we'd still be left with a cadet program that teaches these core values and skills.

CAP has nothing to do with weight. Our cadet program's physical fitness program exists to promote physical health among Americans, not select potential future SEAL team members and weed out the others. Let the military services worry about who is fit or not fit enough for their duties. After all, they pay their people to be fit, so they can demand it. Should we encourage our cadets to be fit? Absolutely. That's part of our job as cadet program people. Should we exclude a cadet from activities simply because they aren't cut out to become a U.S. Marine? Nope. That just isn't what we're here for. Now... you can disagree with the concept of it all day long, but then you're just trying to make a military service out of a volunteer organization. It just isn't who we are.

Before you start on a biased rant, please be informed that I myself am prior service and I know the value of physical fitness. I also know that taping an airman isn't an everyday occasion, but... it's a lot more common than you may think. Yes, we have extra allowances for our cadets and officers on top of USAF standards, but that's only for USAF style uniforms, not for participation in programs.

Before anyone else makes a decision on this, please think about this case:

Uniform Supplement comes out that states that the only uniform authorized for flight duty in CAP will be the USAF style sage green flightsuit.

Think about the effect THAT will have on our organization and our mission. Just one simple sentence, two short lines of text. Think of the result, think of our members' opinions and what it would lead to. Then apply the same thinking to our cadet competition issue.

[Sgt. Savage]

I guess, to elaborate, that the Regulation has taken into consideration that the cadet in question is not a child, they are simply a cadet. If the rules were meant to apply to all cadets, it would not be written as it is. Failure to advance to a Senior Membership does not preclude a person from attaining adulthood.

Part of this idea is reflected in the regulations as well. We allow cadets to remain cadets after age 18 so long as they don't join the AD military, get married, get pregnant or some other act of adulthood.

Treat them like adults and expect them to comply with the regulations. We expect them to before they're 18, right?

[afgeo4]

I guess, to elaborate, that the Regulation has taken into consideration that the cadet in question is not a child, they are simply a cadet. If the rules were meant to apply to all cadets, it would not be written as it is. Failure to advance to a Senior Membership does not preclude a person from attaining adulthood.

Part of this idea is reflected in the regulations as well. We allow cadets to remain cadets after age 18 so long as they don't join the AD military, get married, get pregnant or some other act of adulthood.

Treat them like adults and expect them to comply with the regulations. We expect them to before they're 18, right?

Not becoming a senior member isn't a "failure", it's a personal choice. Just like not becoming a commissioned officer in the military after completing a bachelor's degree isn't a failure, just a career choice. No need to penalize someone for making that choice.

I know 18 year old cadets who are staying as a cadet because they want to make Spaatz. That's the grade equivalent of CAP Captain (and much harder to attain). Do you see that as failure? I see that as determination and success and I've never even been a cadet.

[Sgt. Savage]

Sorry for the ambigous choice of word. Lets replace "Failure" with "Choosing not to". I stand by the rest of what I said, symantics aside.

[afgeo4]

I don't mind them being treated like adults. I just don't want them to be treated like they're int he military because as you stated before, if they wanted to be in the military they'd have enlisted.

[Sgt. Savage]

I don't mind them being treated like adults. I just don't want them to be treated like they're int he military because as you stated before, if they wanted to be in the military they'd have enlisted.

I'm not sure I said that.

None the less, the regulations are in place and accepted by each member as they join. We come here knowing that we are expected to comply with all regulations, not just the ones that make us feel good.

I do think that BMI should be used to evaluate height and weight. Still, though, if they are over 18 and fail to meet height and weight, they should be restricted to the corporate uniform. Why can't a drill team perform in corporates?

[Ned]

As much fun as the thread has been, it is simply the result of the NCC regulation (and the ROEs that preceded it) being "overtaken by events."

When the ROEs were written, the TPU was not an option for cadets over the age of 18.

Now it is.

And as a practical matter (as others have pointed out), it just doesn't come up very often because of the inherent nature of the competative process.

I have every confidence that The Powers that Be will simply update the reg the next time it goes through the mill to allow cadets to compete in either TPU or blues.

So feel good about yourselves and CAPTALK.

Because of this thread, the regulation will be updated to be more inclusive.

Have a nice day.

Ned Lee
DCP, PCR

[afgeo4]

But they CAN compete in either TPU or blues. The problem is that the team gets points taken away for not looking uniform thus pretty much ensuring their loss in the competition.

Was the weight restriction there before the TPU or were cadets over 18 able to wear the USAF style uniform? If they were, then there shouldn't be a problem with them wearing it now. Let's just scratch the TPU for cadets in general.

[jimmydeanno]

The weight restriction was there before the TPU - they could wear the corporate gray combo, etc...

IIRC, the weight restriction came about around the same time that cadets over 18 had to complete CPPT...

[DHollywood]

Perfect, and IG has come into the discussion.

How would you, as an IG, handle a complaint filed by an 18 year old cadet who claimed that they were discriminated against because they weren't allowed to participate in the National Cadet Competition due to their weight and age, even though CAPs non-discriminiation policy states that CAP members shall not be excluded from any activity on the basis of age or disability?

I would handle the complaint in the same manner as any other complaint, in accordance with the provisions of CAPR 123-2.

And my involvement in the discussion is not as an IG.

Assuming an 18 year old cadet made a complaint that they were discriminated against because they weren't allowed to participate in the National Cadet Competition due to their weight not being within regulation, I would review the applicable regulatioins and if the facts as alleged would constitute a violation of CAP regulation and policy an investigation would most  likely follow. 

If a regulation authorizes the adverse action then no investigation would follow and the complaint would be dismissed.   Based on these limited facts, cutting an 18 year old cadet from a competition because that 18 year old cadet does not meet the weight requirements to wear the required AF style uniform for the competition would not constitute discrimination, abuse of authority, or violate CAP policy.  A unit commander has the authority to mandate the wear of the AF style uniform to the exclusion of the corporate uniform for the purposes of a competition.

[jimmydeanno]

*bites tongue*

[afgeo4]

Unfortunately, the issue isn't the legality of the regulation, but the justice of it. Technically, CAP isn't restricting the cadet from participation. The cadet may participate in the proper corporate uniform. Unfortunately, due to competition standards, that would cause the team to lose points, but would not necessarily prevent the team from success. The decision of the team is a subjective one and although I may not agree with it, it is their decision to make.

What I think should be done is a revision into the issue of authorization of cadets to wear the USAF style uniform regardless of age and weight and simultaneous restriction of cadets' wearing the TPU. In my opinion it would be a just solution to the problem and would also decrease the headaches of 18 year old cadets on the uniform issue. As we well know, having more uniform options usually leads to improper wear of those uniforms.

[Ned]

The weight restriction was there before the TPU - they could wear the corporate gray combo, etc...

IIRC, the weight restriction came about around the same time that cadets over 18 had to complete CPPT...

Yes and no.

The weight restrictions have been in place for a while, but the cadets were never authorized to wear the corporate grey combo -- aka the "grey ghost" uniform.  That was, and is, restricted to seniors.

Cadets could wear the blazer combination (which has a plain white shirt with no insignia).  The problem was that it was very, very expensive for cadets.  Consequently few cadets saw that as a viable alternative to the USAF-style uniforms.

I was part of a group that advocated allowing cadets to wear the TPU to offer a meaningful alternative for the larger, over 18 cadets.  We are grateful that the NB agreed and made it available.

But that didn't happen until after the 52-4 was drafted, and this is a classic case of a regulation being "overtaken by events."

And based on my communications with NHQ, a proposed fix is in the works and will probably be in place for next year.  As I understand it, there will be no penalty in any event for cadets who wear the TPU because of an inability to wear the USAF-style uniforms.

I'll let you know if I see any specific draft language.

And of course, any reg change requires the approval of our volunteer leadership.

Ned Lee
DCP, PCR

[DHollywood]

And therein lies justice... teaching the cadets not to complain and whine, but to effect change (such as the present CAP regs) through correct and proper methods... that is truly a lesson in life and leadership....

[Sgt. Savage]

Ok, leave it to me to point out the other half of the original problem but....
A cadet out of uniform costs points in the compatition. Wouldn't an overweight cadet in uniform ( Thus out of uniform because of weight) also cost points?

[lordmonar]

Ok, leave it to me to point out the other half of the original problem but....
A cadet out of uniform costs points in the compatition. Wouldn't an overweight cadet in uniform ( Thus out of uniform because of weight) also cost points?

There are no wieght standards for cadets under 18.

[RogueLeader]

But the first point is that the cadet was over 18, thus required to "make weight" to be in AF uniform.  Just because a Cadet, doesn't mean under 18.