Interim Change Letter 10 July

[mikeylikey]

For your viewing pleasure, may I present the Interim Change Letter of 10 July 2007.  ATTACHED

[Pylon]

I particularly enjoy item e.:  Apparently technician rating earns a silver star, and senior rating a bronze star.   

The The Impotence of Proofreading


It looks like the DDR badge was designed in MS Paint and uses a ripped-off, possibly I.P.-infringing modification of the Girls Scouts logo.

Don't know why the Incident Commander badge uses furled wings when the individual wearing it does not fly or become airborne in any sense of the words.  Come to think of it, no other badge in CAP uses furled wings.  Why couldn't they use the laurel wreath like all other similar qualification badges?

At least they're finally publishing some of these changes the NB has had made for months.

[capchiro]

Now we can put speciality badges on the flight suit leather name tag with our wings??  Is this going to look cluttered, crappy, or just right??  Perhaps I can add sequins to mine to make it really flash??  Why is a letter dated July 10, 2007 just making the streets now or was it post dated since Big CC can't do anything at the present time??

[MIKE]

Looks like I need to update my sticky again.

[Lancer]

Taken from Interim Change Letter 10 July

c. Cadet Enlisted Grade Insignia on AF-style shirt and service coat. Cadet
enlisted members are now authorized to wear grade insignia on both collars or lapels.
The CAP cutout is no longer worn. Mandatory wear date for this change is 1 March
2008.

Taken from March 2007 NB Meeting Minutes

(k) Cadet NCO Grades
RECOMMENDATION: Approve proposal to authorize the wear of grade insignia on
both collars of the light blue AF-style shirt and lapels of service coat, Cadet NCOs
currently wear grade on both collars of BDUs.
ACTION: COL CHITWOOD/SWR MOVED AND COL NELSON/CA SECONDED
that the National Board approves the recommendation of the Uniform Board
with a suggested mandatory wear date of 1 March 2008.

Umm? All Enlisted now or still just NCO? Clarification maybe?

[dwb]

I thought the whole "U.S. Civil Air Patrol" thing was just a branding initiative.  Why are we being saddled with the expense of changing all these uniform items?

I'm still holding out hope that the next CAP/CC rescinds some of these changes.

[Pylon]

Now we can put speciality badges on the flight suit leather name tag with our wings??  Is this going to look cluttered, crappy, or just right??

USAF members can and do wear two badges on their ASNP and it looks fine.

Proof:
http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/web/070807-F-7498T-939.jpg
http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/web/070730-F-2635C-107.jpg
http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/web/070619-F-2729L-212.jpg

[Hawk200]

Now we can put speciality badges on the flight suit leather name tag with our wings??  Is this going to look cluttered, crappy, or just right??

USAF members can and do wear two badges on their ASNP and it looks fine.

Proof:
http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/web/070807-F-7498T-939.jpg
http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/web/070730-F-2635C-107.jpg
http://www.af.mil/shared/media/photodb/thumbnails/070619-F-2729L-212.jpg

Most of those have only a single information line. Which looks better with two badges, but I don't think National would approve it.

[Pylon]

Most of those have only a single information line. Which looks better with two badges, but I don't think National would approve it.

Embroidered would be nice, too.

[Hawk200]

Most of those have only a single information line. Which looks better with two badges, but I don't think National would approve it.

Embroidered would be nice, too.

I'll definitely second that one.

[jimmydeanno]

Here's a horrible example of what one "could" look like... (subtract the color though...sorry Tedda... )

[Chaplaindon]

Now we can put speciality badges on the flight suit leather name tag with our wings??  Is this going to look cluttered, crappy, or just right??

This was a needed and welcomed change for those chaplains, like me, who also possess aeronautical ratings.

The addition of the chaplain's badge to the leather nameplate actually looks quite good, well IMHO.

The USAF Chief of Chaplains, Ch, Maj Gen Baldwin (a rated pilot --who flew in Viet Nam-- and also a chaplain) wears both and it looks fine too.

Good move by NHQ.

[MIKE]

Specialty Insignia, not Specialty Badges... You can not wear your CP or COMM badge on the ASNP.

[capchiro]

The question arises, is Vanguard ready to do this or how long will it be before this can be done?  When speaking to them about cloth presolo wings, I was informed it would take a letter from National and 2-3 months to ramp it up..

[Pylon]

Specialty Insignia, not Specialty Badges... You can not wear your CP or COMM badge on the ASNP.

They should probably clarify better so all members know which set of badges they mean.

Ground Team, Incident Commander, Chaplain, EMT/Nurse/Doctor, and other such speciality insignia...

or Public Affairs badge, Cadet Programs badge, Aerospace Education, etc.

[MIKE]

A bunch of stuff they should clarify better.

[Hawk200]

Specialty Insignia, not Specialty Badges... You can not wear your CP or COMM badge on the ASNP.

They should probably clarify better so all members know which set of badges they mean.

Ground Team, Incident Commander, Chaplain, EMT/Nurse/Doctor, and other such speciality insignia...

or Public Affairs badge, Cadet Programs badge, Aerospace Education, etc.

I think part of the confusion is that we call both types of badges "specialty" something. Maybe a change in our terminology is in order. Specialty badges are for specialty tracks, specialty insignia are for qualifications.

Instead of "specialty insignia", how about "qualification insignia"? "Specialty badge" and "qualification insignia" would be distinctly different terms.

Just an idea.

[afgeo4]

Why the two different mandatory dates for U.S. Civil Air Patrol wear? The BDU branch tapes are 2010 while the TPU nametags are 2008.

[DKruse]

Now we can put speciality badges on the flight suit leather name tag with our wings??  Is this going to look cluttered, crappy, or just right?? 

From what I read, you CAN put the specialty insignia on the name tag, but you are not required to.  I'll just leave the wings on mine for now so it won't be crowded.

[dwb]

Why the two different mandatory dates for U.S. Civil Air Patrol wear? The BDU branch tapes are 2010 while the TPU nametags are 2008.

pfft, even I can answer that.  One requires sewing, one doesn't.  Plus, there are far fewer people with TPUs than with BDUs, so you're affecting different numbers of uniforms.

[afgeo4]

1. It doesn't take people 2 years to sew on a branch tape.
2. It doesn't matter how many uniforms there are out there, each member fixes his/her own and that limit is probably 4 per person with 2 BDU blouses being average in CAP.

3. I'm thinking the ABU will be authorized for us by then since it'll be widely available for purchase through AAFES and who knows what he branch/nametapes will look like for that.

[Pylon]

1. It doesn't take people 2 years to sew on a branch tape.
2. It doesn't matter how many uniforms there are out there, each member fixes his/her own and that limit is probably 4 per person with 2 BDU blouses being average in CAP.

3. I'm thinking the ABU will be authorized for us by then since it'll be widely available for purchase through AAFES and who knows what he branch/nametapes will look like for that.

George, it doesn't mean that a ton of forethought was put into these changes.  Like many of the other changes which were simply unveiled unannounced to the National Board, who were invited to vote on it right then as they learned about it, they were made without a look at the big picture.  I wouldn't worry too much about the phase-in dates anyways; I know many of us will wait until the last day to make any of these changes.  In addition, NHQ has recently extended many of the phase-in periods for uniform changes and it's likely it could happen again.     Last but certainly not least, between now and the phase-in date these changes could be rescinded.

[afgeo4]

Speaking of... any word on CC situation? I noticed his signature on the bottom.

[mikeylikey]

Speaking of... any word on CC situation? I noticed his signature on the bottom.

As did I.  I concluded that the letter was most likely drawn up after the Atlanta conference.

[Lancer]

How about the fact that the letter is dated 10 July 2007.

The announcement of MG Pineda's suspension hit 6 August 2007.

[mikeylikey]

Umm.....it was backdated perhaps???

[Sgt. Savage]

I think they were talking about this:



As soon as the board passed it, I got mine done. Now I',m official.


Oh, BTW, I'd like to see a pilot get a pair of THESE wings!  (Walks away, not wanting to get any pilot on the bottom of his shoe as he gets in his Porche with his blistering hot wife)

[afgeo4]

Aren't parachutist wings an aeronautical rating badge anyway?

[Sgt. Savage]

They're a non-aeronautical badge of aeronautical class... I don't know, that's how they land in the AFI. CAP didn't REALLY allow them until now as the aren't an "aircrew" rating.

[Stonewall]

Had this one made about 12 years ago.  I didn't put rank on it because I didn't want to have to change it every 2 to 4 years.  Obviously that was the wrong idea and several folks told me.  I ended up getting a proper one made with just observer wings.

[Stonewall]

SJFEDOR...

In this picture of you, are you "dual cool" on your leather name tag?  I see the wings but what is the other badge underneath the wings?  GTM?  Is that from Vanguard?

[SJFedor]

You bet your butt I'm dual cool!

Senior GT badge underneath Pilot wings. Got it at the store that we don't give the link out to, so Vanguard doesn't send them a C/D order. I'll hit you up with the PM'age if you want.

[Stonewall]

Got it at the store that we don't give the link out to, so Vanguard doesn't send them a C/D order. I'll hit you up with the PM'age if you want.

*Cough* *Cough*  yeah, whatever.....  *Cough*  ....goes to check PM box.

[JohnKachenmeister]

I think they were talking about this:



As soon as the board passed it, I got mine done. Now I',m official.


Oh, BTW, I'd like to see a pilot get a pair of THESE wings!  (Walks away, not wanting to get any pilot on the bottom of his shoe as he gets in his Porche with his blistering hot wife)

Pilot 1:  "Who was that guy in the Porsche?"

Pilot 2:  "Some guy who never landed in a plane."

Pilot 1:  "His wife is hot.  She kept looking at you as he drove away.  Do you know her?"

Pilot 2:  "Not yet."

[Sgt. Savage]

Touche Kach, Touche....

My wife knows.... Thousands of people every day land in an airplane. Gotta have Cajones to jump out of 62 of them .

Pilot 1:  "His wife is hot.  She kept looking at you as he drove away.  Do you know her?"

Pilot 2:  "Not yet."

Sorry, my wife has standards.

[Hawk200]

You bet your butt I'm dual cool!

Senior GT badge underneath Pilot wings. Got it at the store that we don't give the link out to, so Vanguard doesn't send them a C/D order. I'll hit you up with the PM'age if you want.

Wonder if my PM box could majically conjure up one of those names....

Maybe I should check it in a few hours (?) 

[cnitas]

Why no word on Blue Berets/Hawk Mountain items?  There were voted on at the same meeting right?

[mikeylikey]

Why no word on Blue Berets/Hawk Mountain items?  There were voted on at the same meeting right?

Strange right..............

Perhaps they are reconsidering some things.  So if we don't have it written on a change letter does that mean it's not allowed?

[cnitas]

Strange right..............

Perhaps they are reconsidering some things.  So if we don't have it written on a change letter does that mean it's not allowed?

Well, technically, without a specific authorization by manual or policy letter, they are not authorized.   What is 'allowed' depends greatly on your local leadership.

[dwb]

My, those are some fine looking plastic-encased insignia you are wearing...    Glad to see my "Capt in a Box" came in handy.

[afgeo4]

They're a non-aeronautical badge of aeronautical class... I don't know, that's how they land in the AFI. CAP didn't REALLY allow them until now as the aren't an "aircrew" rating.

Our regs allowed military aeronautical badges, not aircrwe ones.

[Pylon]

Why no word on Blue Berets/Hawk Mountain items?  There were voted on at the same meeting right?

Strange right..............

Perhaps they are reconsidering some things.  So if we don't have it written on a change letter does that mean it's not allowed?

Remember that even if the NB/NEC approve a uniform change, the Air Force must approve any modifications/changes to the USAF-style uniforms.   This is why its usually wise to wait for official publication of the changes by interim change letter or new regulation/manual.  The NB might approve a change, which appears in the minutes, but the AF may turn around and say "Not a chance."

The changes with regards to tabs, ascots, and berets may have given brother blue some heartburn, and it could still be under debate or consideration, hence why they weren't published in the interim change letter.  Best to wait for guidance in official form.

[mikeylikey]

^ gotcha.......waiting for approval to wear my pink undies. 

[bosshawk]

There is a Sheriff in Arizona who will give you permission to wear pink undies: in fact, he requires it of all his inmates.

[JC004]

...
The changes with regards to tabs, ascots, and berets may have given brother blue some heartburn, and it could still be under debate or consideration, hence why they weren't published in the interim change letter.  Best to wait for guidance in official form.

...and white, red, and black pistol belts; added grade to the ballcap; and change is position on the NCSA patch...

[mikeylikey]

^  Understood!  Note to self: Do not rob banks in Arizona

I assume the AF is making the decision on the wearing of the Cadet special activity uniform junk on the BDU's.  So until we see it written I would assume it is illegal.  

[Sgt. Savage]

They're a non-aeronautical badge of aeronautical class... I don't know, that's how they land in the AFI. CAP didn't REALLY allow them until now as the aren't an "aircrew" rating.

Our regs allowed military aeronautical badges, not aircrwe ones.

I went by the AFI, since it is a military badge.

AFI 11.402 states:

9.4.7. Award of Parachutists Badges/Devices. The USAF awards basic parachutist badges/devices
to USAF members and members of other military services on AOs authorizing jump status who complete
parachutist training IAW AFI 11-410, Personnel Parachutist Operations that qualifies them for
the badge/device and meet the criteria requirement by Table 9.2.. AF members that were awarded
parachutist badges while serving in sister services are authorized to wear blue (versus black) embroidered
parachutist badges on the BDU. Commanders must make every effort to maintain the prestige
and tradition of USAF parachutist badges/devices.
NOTE: A parachutist badge is not considered an aviation badge.

It also says: 

9.4.7.2. If worn, the static-line parachutist badge will be worn above all other parachutist and
occupational badges. IAW AFI 36-2903, Aeronautical badges will be worn above all occupational
and miscellaneous badges (including both static-line and MFF badges).

A distinct separation between Parachutists and other Aeronautical ratings.

Doesn't matter much now...

[afgeo4]

...
The changes with regards to tabs, ascots, and berets may have given brother blue some heartburn, and it could still be under debate or consideration, hence why they weren't published in the interim change letter.  Best to wait for guidance in official form.

...and white, red, and black pistol belts; added grade to the ballcap; and change is position on the NCSA patch...

Red pistol belts???

I don't think USAF is going to care about baseball caps since they're abandoning them (at least for now) with the rollout of ABU and NCSA patches... they certainly don't care about that.

The beret might give them a headache because the only navy beret authorized in the Air Force is for Security Police and many people on base simply look for that beret when they need help. No other service has a navy beret as far as I know.

[mikeylikey]

...
The changes with regards to tabs, ascots, and berets may have given brother blue some heartburn, and it could still be under debate or consideration, hence why they weren't published in the interim change letter.  Best to wait for guidance in official form.

...and white, red, and black pistol belts; added grade to the ballcap; and change is position on the NCSA patch...

Don't forget whistle chains, white boot laces, orange undershirts, keystone patches on the hats, civic leadership academy challange coins (Colgan get yours yet). 

Challange coins are not part of the uniforms, my mistake

[JC004]

Red pistol belts???

Master Medics...

[mikeylikey]

Red pistol belts???

Master Medics...

Because a pistol belt will save someones life right?  Or is it because it is red it will save a persons life.....right??

[Sgt. Savage]

Why no word on Blue Berets/Hawk Mountain items?  There were voted on at the same meeting right?

WHile I'm being Frank, (cause I don't want my name associated with the comments I'm about to make Frank is about to make)

We have 5 cadets who have returned from various NCSA events with "special" uniform items. They look like the most disgusting, rediculous... down right stupid bunch I've ever seen. When you have a flight of cadets and one of them is wearing this rediculous orange hat in formation.... he looks like crap.

[JC004]

Why no word on Blue Berets/Hawk Mountain items?  There were voted on at the same meeting right?

WHile I'm being Frank, (cause I don't want my name associated with the comments I'm about to make Frank is about to make)

We have 5 cadets who have returned from various NCSA events with "special" uniform items. They look like the most disgusting, rediculous... down right stupid bunch I've ever seen. When you have a flight of cadets and one of them is wearing this rediculous orange hat in formation.... he looks like crap.

But the three most selective activities, with very limited spots, have basically no bling - COS, CLA, IACE.  Interesting.  BTW, I still think NCSA patches look silly on the pocket.   

[cnitas]

When you have a flight of cadets and one of them is wearing this rediculous orange hat in formation.... he looks like crap.

I agree.  We should get rid of the ugly orange and go back to the scarlet berets for Hawk. 

[afgeo4]

Red pistol belts???

Master Medics...

I've got a crazy idea!  Make them wear a first aid kit on them at all times! Pistol belts are for pistols, not medics.

[afgeo4]

When you have a flight of cadets and one of them is wearing this rediculous orange hat in formation.... he looks like crap.

I agree.  We should get rid of the ugly orange and go back to the scarlet berets for Hawk. 

If they're rangers, why not just go to a tan beret? At least they wouldn't look like PJ wannabes that they are.

[jimmydeanno]

^getting off topic...could turn into another ranger bashing thread...that's bad...

[Sgt. Savage]

When you have a flight of cadets and one of them is wearing this rediculous orange hat in formation.... he looks like crap.

I agree.  We should get rid of the ugly orange and go back to the scarlet berets for Hawk. 

If they're rangers, why not just go to a tan beret? At least they wouldn't look like PJ wannabes that they are.

I just threw up in my mouth a little bit.

[afgeo4]

^getting off topic...could turn into another ranger bashing thread...that's bad...

I would NEVER bash an Army Ranger... or even a park ranger actually. I'm not making any promises about the Ford Ranger though.

[Stonewall]

We have 5 cadets who have returned from various NCSA events with "special" uniform items. They look like the most disgusting, rediculous... down right stupid bunch I've ever seen. When you have a flight of cadets and one of them is wearing this rediculous orange hat in formation.... he looks like crap.

So glad someone else feels my pain.  Not wishing you to feel pain, but sometimes I wonder if I'm the only one disturbed by this crap-o-la.

[jimmydeanno]

^ +1

[afgeo4]

I had an outstanding cadet in my unit (who is now a Marine) who went to Hawk. He came back wearing an LL patch and nothing else. I asked if he ever wished he could wear the beret and he said "nah... then everyone would think I'm something special". I asked him why he doesn't think he's anything special and he said because compared to his Hawk instructors he's just a string bean.

[Stonewall]

... because compared to his Hawk instructors he's just a string bean.

They were fat?

[Flying Pig]

Im just not understanding why these schools need special uniform items to begin with.  Just go to the school, and bring back the knowledge.  Im curious what the attendance rate would be for Ranger and Blue Beret would be if all of the extra uniform items went away?

[afgeo4]

... because compared to his Hawk instructors he's just a string bean.

They were fat?

LOL don't know... I should have put quotes around. I think he meant that he (like string beans) isn't anything special.

[TankerT]

Im just not understanding why these schools need special uniform items to begin with.  Just go to the school, and bring back the knowledge.  Im curious what the attendance rate would be for Ranger and Blue Beret would be if all of the extra uniform items went away?

They tried that with Blue Beret in the 90s.  They changed the activity to EAA Oshkosh.  It was a disaster.  The attendance dropped quite a bit.  Then, Blue Beret came back... and so did the people...

/Goes to show... no matter what people say, most of them are there for the blue hat.

[JC004]

Im just not understanding why these schools need special uniform items to begin with.  Just go to the school, and bring back the knowledge.  Im curious what the attendance rate would be for Ranger and Blue Beret would be if all of the extra uniform items went away?

knowledge is under-rated/under-appreciated   

but, knowledge = power

[Stonewall]

All my thoughts on the bling, special titles and such are here, in this thread:  http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=2662.20

Not that my opinion counts, but I ain't writing that stuff again.

[ricecakecm]

Most of those have only a single information line. Which looks better with two badges, but I don't think National would approve it.

Embroidered would be nice, too.

Some of us already have those....

Legal?  No.  Better looking than leather?  Yes.

[smgilbert101]

Touche Kach, Touche....

My wife knows.... Thousands of people every day land in an airplane. Gotta have Cajones to jump out of 62 of them .

Pilot 1:  "His wife is hot.  She kept looking at you as he drove away.  Do you know her?"

Pilot 2:  "Not yet."

Sorry, my wife has standards.

That's gets an AMEN! 

Total jumps: 586    T-10's to MC1-1B's

[SAR-EMT1]

Was there any bling for cadets or Seniors attending NCSA's twenty or more years ago?

If so what?
If not, when did all this crap suddenly appear.
... Why is a patch no longer good enough?
I met a "ranger medic" once, he asked me (EMT) to deal with a blister for him. 

[JC004]

Was there any bling for cadets or Seniors attending NCSA's twenty or more years ago?

If so what?
If not, when did all this crap suddenly appear.
... Why is a patch no longer good enough?
I met a "ranger medic" once, he asked me (EMT) to deal with a blister for him. 

to start as a ranger medic, IIRC, all you need is your basic first aid course (at least that's what some cadet told me).  Master Medic is pretty involved, but, like Expert Ranger, it is more a personal award that a field qualification.

[brasda91]

Taken from Interim Change Letter 10 July

c. Cadet Enlisted Grade Insignia on AF-style shirt and service coat. Cadet
enlisted members are now authorized to wear grade insignia on both collars or lapels.
The CAP cutout is no longer worn. Mandatory wear date for this change is 1 March
2008.

Taken from March 2007 NB Meeting Minutes

(k) Cadet NCO Grades
RECOMMENDATION: Approve proposal to authorize the wear of grade insignia on
both collars of the light blue AF-style shirt and lapels of service coat, Cadet NCOs
currently wear grade on both collars of BDUs.
ACTION: COL CHITWOOD/SWR MOVED AND COL NELSON/CA SECONDED
that the National Board approves the recommendation of the Uniform Board
with a suggested mandatory wear date of 1 March 2008.

Umm? All Enlisted now or still just NCO? Clarification maybe?

I just talked with Susie at National.  ALL cadets, Amn thru CMsgt, will wear the grade on both sides.

[Sgt. Savage]

Touche Kach, Touche....

My wife knows.... Thousands of people every day land in an airplane. Gotta have Cajones to jump out of 62 of them .

Pilot 1:  "His wife is hot.  She kept looking at you as he drove away.  Do you know her?"

Pilot 2:  "Not yet."

Sorry, my wife has standards.

That's gets an AMEN! 

Total jumps: 586    T-10's to MC1-1B's

62 Jumps and boy do my knees hurt. That's what it means to jump "The Pig" over and over again. Last man in the stick, first guy on the ground.

[floridacyclist]

When you have a flight of cadets and one of them is wearing this rediculous orange hat in formation.... he looks like crap.

So glad someone else feels my pain.  Not wishing you to feel pain, but sometimes I wonder if I'm the only one disturbed by this crap-o-la.

You know you're not.

[AlphaSigOU]

Was there any bling for cadets or Seniors attending NCSA's twenty or more years ago?

If so what?
If not, when did all this crap suddenly appear.
... Why is a patch no longer good enough?
I met a "ranger medic" once, he asked me (EMT) to deal with a blister for him. 

Nope. All we got was a certificate, long since lost. Only proof I have for attending one NCSA as a cadink is a group photo from ATCFC Laughlin AFB from 1979. Don't think the blingage (read NCSA ribbon) is retroactive.