NCO Insignia

[Hawk200]

Clarification; Senior NCOs (MSgt - CMSgt) in the AF can either wear "chevrons (aka; stripes)" on their short sleeve or long sleeve blue shirt or blue epaulets (rank shoulder boards) with their rank insignia on the lapel.

Not any more. Del.  As of October, it's only stripes on shirt sleeves.  The shoulder marks are now only worn on the sweaters.

I know. I just don't get why. Is it so hard to make it all standardized and make SNCO's wear the enamel pin-ons?

Embroidered epaulets look a lot better than pinning metal on a blank one. Since CAP has decided to use shoulder marks, that's probably the most professional looking manner.

At present, NCO's don't promote, so there really is no need for "quick change". And even if they eventually are promotable, they won't promote as fast as cadet officers do.

[Trung Si Ma]

This is the answer from Vanguard about the NCO epaulets.

"Thank you for your inquiry. Unfortunately, Vanguard Is not yet producing any of the senior NCO gray epaulets. We are developing prototypes for NHQ approval. It is anticipated that this project will be completed within the next six to eight weeks.

v/r

Charles Bostwick
Director Elite Services
Vanguard Industries
1-800-221-1264 X 21"

[Trung Si Ma]

[I know. I just don't get why. Is it so hard to make it all standardized and make SNCO's wear the enamel pin-ons?

As an ex-Army type, pinning the enamel pins on the collar points (ala USA and USMC) would suit me just fine.  I would want this option for the white aviator shirt only and mandate sleeve grade for all other uniforms except the flight suit.

[Sgt. Savage]

This is the answer from Vanguard about the NCO epaulets.

"Thank you for your inquiry. Unfortunately, Vanguard Is not yet producing any of the senior NCO gray epaulets. We are developing prototypes for NHQ approval. It is anticipated that this project will be completed within the next six to eight weeks.

v/r

Charles Bostwick
Director Elite Services
Vanguard Industries
1-800-221-1264 X 21"

Which means it takes about 2 years and 6-8 weeks to figure out how to embroider stirpes?

(Walks away crying inside)

[jimmydeanno]

Elite Services

*dun dun dun...Vanguard Ranger!*

Sorry, couldn't help myself.

You know, I've been thinking about this quite a bit - could it be that Vanguard has been slow on the uptake on things like this because our own uniform policies are so confusing they're having a hard time translating them?

[Trung Si Ma]

You know, I've been thinking about this quite a bit - could it be that Vanguard has been slow on the uptake on things like this because our own uniform policies are so confusing they're having a hard time translating them?

It could also be that the senior NCO's are such a small niche that we are way down the priority list.

[afgeo4]

[I know. I just don't get why. Is it so hard to make it all standardized and make SNCO's wear the enamel pin-ons?

As an ex-Army type, pinning the enamel pins on the collar points (ala USA and USMC) would suit me just fine.  I would want this option for the white aviator shirt only and mandate sleeve grade for all other uniforms except the flight suit.

It would be very confusing as it would look a lot like cadet insignia. Would you be against pinning it onto a blank blue epaulet wich CAP embroidered on it? Those already exist for cadets.

[afgeo4]

You know, I've been thinking about this quite a bit - could it be that Vanguard has been slow on the uptake on things like this because our own uniform policies are so confusing they're having a hard time translating them?

It could also be that the senior NCO's are such a small niche that we are way down the priority list.

Yes... and the Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force is the lowest lol.

I think the problem isn't the SNCOs. The problem are those who wear the birds and stars who forget that NCOs exist (which will always come back to bite them in the rudder).

[Trung Si Ma]

It would be very confusing as it would look a lot like cadet insignia. Would you be against pinning it onto a blank blue epaulet which CAP embroidered on it? Those already exist for cadets.

I don't think that we would be confused with cadets since we are only talking wear on the white aviator shirt in whatever combination that it is authorized for wear.  I fully support sleeve insignia for all other uniforms.  Hell, I'd even support sleeve insignia for the white aviator shirt if that was the policy.

I wouldn't have a problem with pinning the insignia to the gray epaulet's that are currently available although that method is a pain when taking off a coat.

I just want a policy that makes sense of what is available - or likely to be available in the foreseeable future.

[afgeo4]

The white aviator shirt/blue pants combo is authorized for cadets over the age of 18, so there's a chance you or another NCO could be confused for a cadet NCO if you just wear pin ons on collar.

Curious... how does pinning rank onto epaulets make it harder when taking off a coat? It gets caught on the inside of the jacket? How does the army deal with the regimental crests?

[Trung Si Ma]

Curious... how does pinning rank onto epaulets make it harder when taking off a coat? It gets caught on the inside of the jacket? How does the army deal with the regimental crests?

Yes, they get caught on the jacket lining.

The DUI are worn in the middle of the shoulder and don't seem to catch as much as items at the sleeve.  As a dual component, I occasionally had problems with LT bars if I wore an overcoat.

[Hawk200]

You know, I've been thinking about this quite a bit - could it be that Vanguard has been slow on the uptake on things like this because our own uniform policies are so confusing they're having a hard time translating them?

I think the problem isn't the SNCOs. The problem are those who wear the birds and stars who forget that NCOs exist (which will always come back to bite them in the rudder).

Hmmm, makes a lot of sense.

Nah, that couldn't be it...

[Sgt. Savage]

The white aviator shirt/blue pants combo is authorized for cadets over the age of 18, so there's a chance you or another NCO could be confused for a cadet NCO if you just wear pin ons on collar.

Curious... how does pinning rank onto epaulets make it harder when taking off a coat? It gets caught on the inside of the jacket? How does the army deal with the regimental crests?

DUI (Regimantal Crests) are ony worn on the shoulder in Class "A" Uniform. Otherwise, they're on the headgear and the right side over the pocket.

[ddelaney103]

You know, I've been thinking about this quite a bit - could it be that Vanguard has been slow on the uptake on things like this because our own uniform policies are so confusing they're having a hard time translating them?

It could also be that the senior NCO's are such a small niche that we are way down the priority list.

Yes... and the Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force is the lowest lol.

I think the problem isn't the SNCOs. The problem are those who wear the birds and stars who forget that NCOs exist (which will always come back to bite them in the rudder).

It's just econ.

I'd guess we have about two to three hundred NCO's in CAP.  300 into 5 grades means we're talking at best 100 people who might need this grade insignia, before you subtract those who will never wear white and grays or TPU's.  That's a lot of tooling up for so few people.

They'd be much better off going with pin on grade on plain gray slides, though it might be a hassle dealing with it hooking on outergarments.

[jimmydeanno]

^ Just over 10 years I've only seen 2 CAP NCOs and one decided to convert once he made Lt Col (he was a CMSgt).  So I agree, there really isn't much "demand" for them like there are cadet insignia.

It's sort of like bakeries at grocery stores, they never actually make money, but they provide them as a convenience item.  Maybe the same is true with Vanguard, yeah, they can make them, but prefer not to.

[afgeo4]

There aren't many flight officers in CAP either, but they make insignia for them (NOT TPU)

[Trung Si Ma]

I was down at Osan AB yesterday and talked to Mr Min at Royal Bag.  When I get back, I'm going to order two sets of the blank slides from Vanguard and send them to him to have MSgt embroidered on them.  When I get them back, I'll post a picture on this thread.  If they're acceptable, I'll release the information for everyone.

[afgeo4]

So instead of asking Van... to custom manufacturer you want us to have some random shop outside of Osan to do it? Isn't that a bit silly?

[Trung Si Ma]

So instead of asking Van... to custom manufacturer you want us to have some random shop outside of Osan to do it? Isn't that a bit silly?

Read farther up, I've asked Vanguard.  Their answer is not overly encouraging.

[afgeo4]

So instead of asking Van... to custom manufacturer you want us to have some random shop outside of Osan to do it? Isn't that a bit silly?

Read farther up, I've asked Vanguard.  Their answer is not overly encouraging.

That's how they are even when it comes to items they already have in stock. What's new?