Bye Bye St. Albans.....

[Becks]

Not sure how many of you are familiar with what changed this year at NBB.

The St Alban's crest has been increased in size, it is now roughly the size of the interior portion standard army flash where the DUI is placed.
I personally think the new cross looks good, much more like a flash.

However...

Tony showed up with a MAJCOM on his beret...cue "wtf?" looks around the compound.
All grads were told that we may now only wear our Alban's pin while on the beret compound, while at home we must wear the issued MAJCOM like Tony was wearing.
The MAJCOM doesnt look horrid on a properly shaped beret (something TP apparently didn't get the memo on how to do), however killing a tradition like the St Alban's like that...sorta irks me.

Food for thought...Cetain AF SP/SF individuals already dislike the fact that we wear the same color beret that they do. Prior to forming one entity known as "Security Forces" the AF Cops wore the different MAJCOM's of their units on their beret (ie K9 etc). Our new MAJCOM looks exactly like the ones they used to wear...
*stir pot*

[JC004]

um.  wth?!

[AlphaSigOU]

um.  wth?!

I think he's mentioning that Blue Beret now must wear a beret flash, or like the olden days of the skycops, an enamel USCAP MAJCOM-style pin on the beret. (Us former hash-slingers wore the MAJCOM pin on our cook's whites, over the nametag.)

[isuhawkeye]

thats interesting. 

Can any of you reg watchers site the memo referencing wear of these items.  I believe it stated that you should wear the beret the way it was issued. 

As such not subject to the year to year changes that these activities undergo??

[alamrcn]

You're talking about the 3" flight suit patch? My beret is very properly fit, but I don't think I can fit a honking thing like that on there.

Previously I had a GT badge through the cardboard - couldn't wear it anyway, and I only had one St Albans cross which I didn't want to lose or wreck. I actually haven't worn it since the "go ahead"  - but when I do, I guess I'll follow the original notes that I think inferred keeping it vanilla.

I went in '95 to the first NBB and there was only 50 new cadre out of the 300+ participants. Previous cadre, from the late-80s schools, used to wear their St Albans Cross pins under the lapel of their service coat or under the flap of a BDU pocket, etc.

-Ace

[Pylon]

Wouldn't another uniform change require an action of the National Board or at least an interim change letter?   Or have I been confused about this since day one?

[CAPLAW]

Pylon, Since I joined CAP 92 it seems that there is a uniform change every month.  I think that someone at national picks up a magic 8  ball and ask it if we should change the uniform.  I thought that the Blue Beret was for Blue Berets.  Does the AF Chief of Staff show up at para-rescue school and wear the beret for just showing up. 

[Grumpy]

Prior to forming one entity known as "Security Forces" the AF Cops wore the different MAJCOM's of their units on their beret (ie K9 etc). Our new MAJCOM looks exactly like the ones they used to wear...
*stir pot*
______________________________________________________________________________

I still liked it better when we were the Air Police and wore white hats.  If I wanted to wear a Barret I'd been born a French man.   

[pixelwonk]

The command emblem for the beret is not the patch.  It's an enamel and metal pin, I'd estimate about an inch ...maybe even inch and a half tall, by an inch wide.  Those are eyeballed dimensions of course, I wasn't about to get a ruler out and press it up against the General's head when he was at the recruiting trailer.

But you get the idea.

[Becks]

The command emblem for the beret is not the patch.  It's an enamel and metal pin, I'd estimate about an inch ...maybe even inch and a half tall, by an inch wide.  Those are eyeballed dimensions of course, I wasn't about to get a ruler out and press it up against the General's head when he was at the recruiting trailer.

But you get the idea.

Yup you got it, its an actual pin, but here's the kicker...it doesn't say US anywhere on it.

[Becks]

Pylon, Since I joined CAP 92 it seems that there is a uniform change every month.  I think that someone at national picks up a magic 8  ball and ask it if we should change the uniform.  I thought that the Blue Beret was for Blue Berets.  Does the AF Chief of Staff show up at para-rescue school and wear the beret for just showing up. 

Apparently he was awarded an "honorary" beret in the past.
Yeah, way to ruin what "honorary" title was given to you TP.
Needless to say when I saw him on compound with it I had to do a quick to the rear as he approached me lest I say choice words.

[JC004]

Anybody who went have a picture of this?

[SJFedor]

Well, if you want to get technical....

Here's a quote from the NB minutes where this stuff was approved.

All members that attend the Blue Beret and national Hawk Mountain training can wear any awarded items that go on the uniform or the head gear with their BDUs, blue or green.

So, since NBB didn't "award" the MAJCOM crests that he was wearing, and is still giving out the St. Albans, technically, TP was out of uniform and regulation.

Maybe THAT'S why he's suspended!

[WoodlandSARman]

Those new crosses are WAY to big.........

[NIN]

No worries about weird things like this popping up for about the next 180 days or so....

[JC004]

No worries about weird things like this popping up for about the next 180 days or so....

[Hawk200]

No worries about weird things like this popping up for about the next 180 days or so....

Then again, if something like this does pop up, then we know it wasn't TP. Gives us a chance to start looking for the real culprit.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Sorta like OJ! 

By the way, has he found the "Real Killers" yet?

[Pylon]

There must be photos out there from NBB.  Anybody have one?

[JC004]

There must be photos out there from NBB.  Anybody have one?

I found some on CAP Channel, but none of this patch thing

[mikeylikey]

Question...........did TP ever attend BB?  Why are we creating more uniform junk?  Why are they allowing specail activity specific uniform items (BB, Hawk) to be worn at all?  When is this all going to end?

[SAR-EMT1]

Not to put a damper on your fun, but I doubt that is appropriate conduct.

Si Senor

So seriously: why does it not say " US" ? ??

[Becks]

There must be photos out there from NBB.  Anybody have one?

I found some on CAP Channel, but none of this patch thing

Patch? Not sure what you're referring to.
I will try and take a photo of both MAJCOM and new Alban's soon.

[JC004]

There must be photos out there from NBB.  Anybody have one?

I found some on CAP Channel, but none of this patch thing

Patch? Not sure what you're referring to.
I will try and take a photo of both MAJCOM and new Alban's soon.

I mis-typed.  Sh.

[Becks]

Here we are...

[JC004]

Finally.  Hm.  Now maybe you can put the US on with whiteout.  This thing is silly.

[SJFedor]

Any particular reason why we can't just put a fabric flash on there so it doesn't look like it's a relic from the 70's and 80's?

Even to put a fabric flash and your little metal thing on top, that would look better.

[Becks]

Any particular reason why we can't just put a fabric flash on there so it doesn't look like it's a relic from the 70's and 80's?

Even to put a fabric flash and your little metal thing on top, that would look better.

There used to be flashes in the past for senior staff and Beret II seniors and cadets.


http://www.blueberet.org/blueberethistory.htm

[Hawk200]

Any particular reason why we can't just put a fabric flash on there so it doesn't look like it's a relic from the 70's and 80's?

Even to put a fabric flash and your little metal thing on top, that would look better.

And it would look very Army.

Then again, we do have a flag on our right shoulder now.

[SJFedor]

Any particular reason why we can't just put a fabric flash on there so it doesn't look like it's a relic from the 70's and 80's?

Even to put a fabric flash and your little metal thing on top, that would look better.

And it would look very Army.

Then again, we do have a flag on our right shoulder now.

True, but AF Security Forces wear a flash on theirs, too. Granted it's not the same shape as an Army flash, but it still looks better than the metal directly on there.

But, if that's what they really want, that's what they shall have.

[JayT]

So whats the point of the MAJCOM flash?

[CadetProgramGuy]

Whats the point in most of our redundant uniform changes?

[mikeylikey]

^ To make Vanguard $$

[CadetProgramGuy]

^ To make Vanguard $$

While there is truth to this statement, I cannot understand why we cannot emulate the military and have 3-4 options for unifroms, not the 27 veriants we have today.

Being prior Army, it was easy.  Class A - B or BDU's

[Trung Si Ma]

We could take it realllly far back.

Hey Kach - remember the Special Forces Identification Bar (AKA Candy Stripe) for the non fully qualified SF-ers in the 60's and 70's?

For you military trivia folks - that is what was meant by "full flash qualified" - you were a fully qualified SF trooper, not a "candy stripper" who happened to be assigned to the unit.

[mikeylikey]

^ To make Vanguard $$

While there is truth to this statement, I cannot understand why we cannot emulate the military and have 3-4 options for unifroms, not the 27 veriants we have today.

Being prior Army, it was easy.  Class A - B or BDU's

I agree we need to eliminate some uniforms.  I hate the golf shirt option.  That is more for something like gliders?  We should eliminate down!  TPU, Blues, BDU, BBDU, Green flight suit, blue flight suit, Mess Dress and THATS it.  No corporate regimental tie, no grey pants, no blazer.  Good luck trying to take away the golf shirt though.  That has become the standard uniform for a lot of SQD's. 

[CadetProgramGuy]

^ To make Vanguard $$

While there is truth to this statement, I cannot understand why we cannot emulate the military and have 3-4 options for unifroms, not the 27 veriants we have today.

Being prior Army, it was easy.  Class A - B or BDU's

I agree we need to eliminate some uniforms.  I hate the golf shirt option.  That is more for something like gliders?  We should eliminate down!  TPU, Blues, BDU, BBDU, Green flight suit, blue flight suit, Mess Dress and THATS it.  No corporate regimental tie, no grey pants, no blazer.  Good luck trying to take away the golf shirt though.  That has become the standard uniform for a lot of SQD's. 

If I made the choice on what to keep and what to throw away.....

Keep:

BDU's, AF Blues, Flight suits, Mess Dress, Golf Shirt (pants would be Khaki, not grey)
Keep Corperate Option for all above.

Lose:  The rest.....

[Trung Si Ma]

...Golf Shirt (pants would be Khaki, not grey)

I would even go so far as to specify Golf Shirt with Khaki Dockers.  Dockers are available everywhere and the color is always the same.  I would also specify that the Golf Shirt is dry clean only to cut down on the fading.

Despite the fact that the members of this board seem to hate the shirt so badly, it does seem to be the preferred uniform of many of our members.  Personally, I spent 20+ years in Army uniforms and my love of shining Corcorans is long gone - I like the golf shirt.

[CadetProgramGuy]

alot of the reason I am keeping the Golf Shirt is for travel in CAP Vehicles.

I really don't like driving in my BDU's or Blues (BDU's get warm, Blues I'd be afraid to drink my 64oz of soda)

[Hawk200]

Any particular reason why we can't just put a fabric flash on there so it doesn't look like it's a relic from the 70's and 80's?

Even to put a fabric flash and your little metal thing on top, that would look better.

And it would look very Army.

Then again, we do have a flag on our right shoulder now.

True, but AF Security Forces wear a flash on theirs, too. Granted it's not the same shape as an Army flash, but it still looks better than the metal directly on there.

But, if that's what they really want, that's what they shall have.

Enlisted Security Forces wear just a cloth flash. They don't pin anything on it. The officers have a flash without the eagle that they pin on their rank insignia. Plus, it's a noticeably larger flash.

[furray]

So did anybody find it in writing yet?

[alamrcn]

Here we are...

So my obvious question is... where did you get 'em?
Did they have them at NBB already?

I know that nothing was mentioned in the meeting notes about a device (I think), so I'll keep the front "Space for Rent" for now. But I'd like to know for the future. In the same topic, at NBB they had non-cadre wear an old CAP-EAA pin on their beret - on top of a fabric circle flash, different colors for each flight and staff. I have scans of all of them on the CAP Patches website.

I have not seen any produced flashes like those shown on the NBB alumni website. Talking to Ted Lohr and Chris (BB HOs) a few years back, I think we came to the conclusion that if they exsisted outside of printed materials, that they were hand made.

-Ace

[Becks]

Here we are...

So my obvious question is... where did you get 'em?
Did they have them at NBB already?

I have not seen any produced flashes like those shown on the NBB alumni website. Talking to Ted Lohr and Chris (BB HOs) a few years back, I think we came to the conclusion that if they exsisted outside of printed materials, that they were hand made.

-Ace

We got them while at NBB.
Yes, Chris Y. is familiar with the situation and made a quick stop by NBB to discuss a few things.  The flashes were hand made, the senior staff ones were simply a red flash with a red white and blue ribbon stitched across it.  Chris managed to find one for a friend of mine.

[SAR-EMT1]

Here we are...

I have not seen any produced flashes like those shown on the NBB alumni website. Talking to Ted Lohr and Chris (BB HOs) a few years back, I think we came to the conclusion that if they exsisted outside of printed materials, that they were hand made.

-Ace

Would this happen to be a gentleman from ILWG? A Major or Lt Col perhaps ??

Tags - MIKE

[CadetProgramGuy]

Here we are...

So my obvious question is... where did you get 'em?
Did they have them at NBB already?

I have not seen any produced flashes like those shown on the NBB alumni website. Talking to Ted Lohr and Chris (BB HOs) a few years back, I think we came to the conclusion that if they exsisted outside of printed materials, that they were hand made.

-Ace

We got them while at NBB.
Yes, Chris Y. is familiar with the situation and made a quick stop by NBB to discuss a few things.  The flashes were hand made, the senior staff ones were simply a red flash with a red white and blue ribbon stitched across it.  Chris managed to find one for a friend of mine.

Do you have Photo examples of the finished product?

[winterg]

If you're looking for a good supplier of flashes then here is the best choice: http://www.paradestore.com  We probably would have been a lot better going with them instead of Vanguard.

As for the berets, I know that for years it has caused some grief that the berets we recieve at NBB are the same color as the berets worn by SP/SF in the Air Force.

Well, we want to keep it "Blue Beret", right?  So why not a different shade of blue?  No, I am NOT talking about UN blue!  They make a royal blue which is even different from the Acadamy royal blue so there is no chance it will be confused with an active duty beret.

Second, Glendale also makes flashes.  Go back to the cloth flashes.  Just my two cents.  The other thing I would like to see is real berets handed out at NBB, not the cheap Romanian knockoffs!

[furray]

Has anybody found it in writing? I've looked all over, I can't find it.

[JC004]

Has anybody found it in writing? I've looked all over, I can't find it.

Where were the previous wear instructions written?

[alamrcn]

Do you have ACU bed sheets?!   :lol

Hopefully I can get the hook-up on one of those hand-made flashes too. I'll be looking for the large St Albans Cross and Command flashes to be offered somewhere... won't hold my breath for Vanguard.

I haven't had any luck finding another of the normal size St Albans for over a decade now. I found a St Andrews Cross.. same thing, but silver instead of gold - or post "swet rubbing" heh.

[Becks]

Do you have ACU bed sheets?!   :lol

Hopefully I can get the hook-up on one of those hand-made flashes too. I'll be looking for the large St Albans Cross and Command flashes to be offered somewhere... won't hold my breath for Vanguard.

I haven't had any luck finding another of the normal size St Albans for over a decade now. I found a St Andrews Cross.. same thing, but silver instead of gold - or post "swet rubbing" heh.

Nah, just threw down the ACU blouse for something flat to photograph on.
Heh..yeah "sweat rubbing" the new Alban's could be a pain given their size...