CAPM 39-1, Table 6-1, rule 13 (page 97) says that rank insignia is worn embroidered on gray epaulet sleeves - Vanguard does not sell those. They do sell a blank gray epaulet, but no embroidered ones.
Paragraph 6-1 gives the option of sewn on insignia.
What are the NCO's wearing on the aviator shirt?
Air Force NCO pins on the blank gray shoulder marks I would say.
They were supposed to make the new embroidered ones... but haven't yet for whatever reason. IIRC this is a noted change from the previous edition where the metal insignia was worn pinned to the plain gray epaulet sleeve.
IMO, CAP should make like the AF in this case... Would still need them for the sweaters though IIRC.
Actually, Vanguard does make NCO epaulets as a custom order, but it's a big hassle. It took almost six months to get my blue ones. I have a gray pair produced by CAPMart before the great switch...
-SeattleSarge
With so few of us, I don't think the Vanguard will ever "produce" them to stock. The AF pins aren't authorized. Creates quite the conundrum now doesn't it.
Is the TPU authorized for senior member NCOs? You could wear that, and just wear the regular USAF rank slides (assuming you're a senior NCO, anyway).
Why not just wear cloth chevrons on your sleeves?
I don't believe the TPU is authorized for NCOs. I brought that up earlier with no response. I guess NCOs could wear the USAF blue NCO epaulets, but those aren't available for Sgt - TSgt I believe are about to be phased out since USAF is pressing on NCOs wearing cloth on sleeves again.
Quote from: afgeo4 on August 21, 2007, 03:46:47 PM
Why not just wear cloth chevrons on your sleeves?
39-1 says gray epaulet sleeves.
I'm in Korea right now and can't call NHQ to get a semi-definitive answer. Nor is my schedule allowing me to go downtown to see about getting some made.
Quote from: afgeo4 on August 21, 2007, 03:46:47 PMI believe are about to be phased out since USAF is pressing on NCOs wearing cloth on sleeves again.
They're being phased out of wear on the blue short-sleeve shirt, but the SNCO epaulets will still be manufactured because they'll still be authorized on the sweater(s), as far as I recall and understand.
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on August 21, 2007, 04:02:23 PM
39-1 says gray epaulet sleeves.
Indeed CAPM 39-1 doesn't permit sleeve chevrons for blues. It calls for embroidered grey epaulet sleeves, which apparently are a hassle to get from Vanguard based on CAP NCO's who have posted their experience on that here.
Quote from: Pylon on August 21, 2007, 05:46:31 PM
Quote from: afgeo4 on August 21, 2007, 03:46:47 PMI believe are about to be phased out since USAF is pressing on NCOs wearing cloth on sleeves again.
They're being phased out of wear on the blue short-sleeve shirt, but the SNCO epaulets will still be manufactured because they'll still be authorized on the sweater(s), as far as I recall and understand.
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on August 21, 2007, 04:02:23 PM
39-1 says gray epaulet sleeves.
Indeed CAPM 39-1 doesn't permit sleeve chevrons for blues. It calls for embroidered grey epaulet sleeves, which apparently are a hassle to get from Vanguard based on CAP NCO's who have posted their experience on that here.
The wooly-pooleys are being phased out as well. Not sure about the cardigan.
Quote from: afgeo4 on August 21, 2007, 06:58:43 PM
The wooly-pooleys are being phased out as well. Not sure about the cardigan.
Cardigan is staying, according to the last article I read about it
Quote from: Pylon on August 21, 2007, 07:01:08 PM
Quote from: afgeo4 on August 21, 2007, 06:58:43 PM
The wooly-pooleys are being phased out as well. Not sure about the cardigan.
Cardigan is staying, according to the last article I read about it
The current pullover sweater is to be replaced with another style of pullover sweater: with a leather nameplate, if Air force Times is to be believed.
The fate of the "Mr. Rogers' sweater" will depend on how the new pullover fares.
Quote from: Pylon on August 21, 2007, 05:46:31 PM
Quote from: afgeo4 on August 21, 2007, 03:46:47 PMI believe are about to be phased out since USAF is pressing on NCOs wearing cloth on sleeves again.
They're being phased out of wear on the blue short-sleeve shirt, but the SNCO epaulets will still be manufactured because they'll still be authorized on the sweater(s), as far as I recall and understand.
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on August 21, 2007, 04:02:23 PM
39-1 says gray epaulet sleeves.
Indeed CAPM 39-1 doesn't permit sleeve chevrons for blues. It calls for embroidered grey epaulet sleeves, which apparently are a hassle to get from Vanguard based on CAP NCO's who have posted their experience on that here.
Sorry Sir, 39-1 says "1. Grade Insignia: Senior member officers wear embroidered grade insignia on gray epaulet sleeve. Senior member NCOs and Airmen wear 3-inch or 3 1/2-inch cloth chevrons on the sleeve or embroidered gray epaulet sleeve."
This only applies to blues.
Quote from: afgeo4 on August 21, 2007, 03:46:47 PMI don't believe the TPU is authorized for NCOs.
Both the initial policy letter and the updates say the uniform is for "senior members", not "officers". I'd say the best bet is to wear the TPU with USAF MSgt shoulder marks.
Trung Si Ma has MSgt stripes in his profile, so I assume he's an E-7.
Alright, but what do E-4 to E-6 wear?
Quote from: afgeo4 on August 21, 2007, 07:29:21 PM
Alright, but what do E-4 to E-6 wear?
Well in Vanguard's last attempt at their online store, they listed Blue epaulet sleeves for E-4 to E-6 and FO to SFO for wear with the TPU. However, in its newest incarnation, the website no longer lists any of these.
LOL probably cause they're not authorized by anyone? Is this another attempt by Vanguard to create demand before there's a product?
Quote from: afgeo4 on August 21, 2007, 08:31:43 PM
LOL probably cause they're not authorized by anyone? Is this another attempt by Vanguard to create demand before there's a product?
They're authorized for wear with the TPU. That's
what you're supposed to wear... blue epaulet sleeves with embroidered grade insignia.
Quote from: ddelaney103 on August 21, 2007, 07:12:22 PM
Quote from: Pylon on August 21, 2007, 07:01:08 PM
Quote from: afgeo4 on August 21, 2007, 06:58:43 PM
The wooly-pooleys are being phased out as well. Not sure about the cardigan.
Cardigan is staying, according to the last article I read about it
The current pullover sweater is to be replaced with another style of pullover sweater: with a leather nameplate, if Air force Times is to be believed.
The fate of the "Mr. Rogers' sweater" will depend on how the new pullover fares.
I've seen Navy guys in a black sweater with a leather nameplate before.
Quote from: afgeo4 on August 21, 2007, 06:58:43 PM
The wooly-pooleys are being phased out as well. Not sure about the cardigan.
Wooly Pully's are being phased out? Oh, man, there's another boneheaded Air Force change. That one looks a
lot better than the cardigan.
I wonder if the USCG will change over to whatever the USAF comes up with. They adopted the cardigan.
Quote from: MIKE on August 22, 2007, 02:37:09 AM
I wonder if the USCG will change over to whatever the USAF comes up with. They adopted the cardigan.
I'd let them have the cardigan if we could keep the Woolly Pully.
Quote from: Hawk200 on August 22, 2007, 02:42:28 AM
Quote from: MIKE on August 22, 2007, 02:37:09 AM
I wonder if the USCG will change over to whatever the USAF comes up with. They adopted the cardigan.
I'd let them have the cardigan if we could keep the Woolly Pully.
Ditto.
Quote from: ddelaney103 on August 21, 2007, 07:12:22 PM
Quote from: Pylon on August 21, 2007, 07:01:08 PM
Quote from: afgeo4 on August 21, 2007, 06:58:43 PM
The wooly-pooleys are being phased out as well. Not sure about the cardigan.
Cardigan is staying, according to the last article I read about it
The current pullover sweater is to be replaced with another style of pullover sweater: with a leather nameplate, if Air force Times is to be believed.
The fate of the "Mr. Rogers' sweater" will depend on how the new pullover fares.
The Wooly Pully is being replaced with a lighter weight version.
The current version is good if you're outdoors, but it's too warm to wear indoors.
And according to the AF Times the black/brown leather nametag that is worn with the leather A2 flight jacket will be worn on the new sweater. That should look better and be a lot easier to position then the metal nametag we now wear on the wooly pully.
According to the same AF Times article, very few males wear the Cardigan.
Quote from: PHall on August 22, 2007, 05:10:01 AM
Quote from: ddelaney103 on August 21, 2007, 07:12:22 PM
Quote from: Pylon on August 21, 2007, 07:01:08 PM
Quote from: afgeo4 on August 21, 2007, 06:58:43 PM
The wooly-pooleys are being phased out as well. Not sure about the cardigan.
Cardigan is staying, according to the last article I read about it
The current pullover sweater is to be replaced with another style of pullover sweater: with a leather nameplate, if Air force Times is to be believed.
The fate of the "Mr. Rogers' sweater" will depend on how the new pullover fares.
The Wooly Pully is being replaced with a lighter weight version.
The current version is good if you're outdoors, but it's too warm to wear indoors.
And according to the AF Times the black/brown leather nametag that is worn with the leather A2 flight jacket will be worn on the new sweater. That should look better and be a lot easier to position then the metal nametag we now wear on the wooly pully.
According to the same AF Times article, very few males wear the Cardigan.
That's because they were originally part of the uniform for medical personnel (Nurses)
Quote from: PHall on August 22, 2007, 05:10:01 AM
The Wooly Pully is being replaced with a lighter weight version.
The current version is good if you're outdoors, but it's too warm to wear indoors.
And according to the AF Times the black/brown leather nametag that is worn with the leather A2 flight jacket will be worn on the new sweater. That should look better and be a lot easier to position then the metal nametag we now wear on the wooly pully.
I can live with that. Didn't realize there would still be a version available. It's a sharp looking item that works. Hopefully the newer version will be just as useful.
Quote from: PHall on August 22, 2007, 05:10:01 AM
According to the same AF Times article, very few males wear the Cardigan.
Gee, wonder why? >:D
Quote from: Mike M on August 22, 2007, 05:18:16 AM
That's because they were originally part of the uniform for medical personnel (Nurses)
The cardigan was? I remember medical personnel wearing a white cardigan. Haven't seen anyone wearing a blue one with medical whites, although it might work. The white one just looked a little funny regardless of who wore it.
If the new AF wooly pooley will have our brown/black flight patch then will we be required to wear a different one for distinction purposes? Hopefully we can just wear our flightsuit patch.
Quote from: Hawk200 on August 22, 2007, 01:33:07 PM
Quote from: PHall on August 22, 2007, 05:10:01 AM
The Wooly Pully is being replaced with a lighter weight version.
The current version is good if you're outdoors, but it's too warm to wear indoors.
And according to the AF Times the black/brown leather nametag that is worn with the leather A2 flight jacket will be worn on the new sweater. That should look better and be a lot easier to position then the metal nametag we now wear on the wooly pully.
I can live with that. Didn't realize there would still be a version available. It's a sharp looking item that works. Hopefully the newer version will be just as useful.
Quote from: PHall on August 22, 2007, 05:10:01 AM
According to the same AF Times article, very few males wear the Cardigan.
Gee, wonder why? >:D
Too macho to be seen in the Mr Rogers? I dunno - I wore it all the time at JMIC. It was the only gear you could wear buttoned or unbuttoned: that was great when the temp changed from room to room. Pulling off the pullover a couple of times would get you a shirt full of lint and hair like Beakman's World.
The Army and Navy would wear the short black jackets ("Pentagon Battle Dress"). Now that you can wear the lightweight blue jacket indoors I'd move to that if they lose the cardigan.
Speaking of Navy... doesn't their black pull-over sweater have a flight swim patch on it?
Yep.
After many discussions with Susan Parker at NHQ (who was very helpful), I put together the following summary of NCO insignia guidance;
1. Gray embroidered NCO epaulets are for wear with the Aviator Shirt-Gray Pants combination.
2. Blue embroidered NCO epaulets (No "CAP") are for wear with the corporate Aviator Shirt-Blue Pants combination. E-5 and E-6, plus the top three.
3. Sewn-on stripes are worn with the USAF blue shirt, USAF dress blue jacket, BDUs and BBDUs. Note: The flight cap is worn with blue piping and the CAP emblem.
4. No NCO rank insignia is worn with the flight duty uniform (flight suit). Rank is indicated on the leather name plate.
Ms. Parker advised that there is no guidance on NCO wear of the TPU.
I'm hoping that the efforts of CMSgt Chaifos will help push a clear, coherent policy on this topic.
-SeattleSarge
Thanks Ron.
I sent an e-mail to Vanguard telling them that I needed to sets of the MSgt gray epaulets yesterday (Korea time) and have yet to hear from them. I am back in CONUS next week and will call them directly.
I wish that I had the foresight to bring lieutenant epaulets with me so that I could take them downtown at Osan today and get some custom ones made.
Quote from: SeattleSarge on August 22, 2007, 05:45:05 PM
After many discussions with Susan Parker at NHQ (who was very helpful), I put together the following summary of NCO insignia guidance;
1. Gray embroidered NCO epaulets are for wear with the Aviator Shirt-Gray Pants combination.
They aren't being sold, to my knowledge.
Quote from: SeattleSarge on August 22, 2007, 05:45:05 PM
2. Blue embroidered NCO epaulets (No "CAP") are for wear with the corporate Aviator Shirt-Blue Pants combination. E-5 and E-6, plus the top three.
I believe E-4 to E-6 don't exist. USAF has epaulets for MSgt and above. E-4 is included into NCO grades because USA, USMC and USN have E-4 NCOs.
Quote from: SeattleSarge on August 22, 2007, 05:45:05 PM
3. Sewn-on stripes are worn with the USAF blue shirt, USAF dress blue jacket, BDUs and BBDUs. Note: The flight cap is worn with blue piping and the CAP emblem.
You mean the Senior Member flight cap device?
Quote from: SeattleSarge on August 22, 2007, 05:45:05 PM
4. No NCO rank insignia is worn with the flight duty uniform (flight suit). Rank is indicated on the leather name plate.
Just like all military branches, makes sense.
Quote from: SeattleSarge on August 22, 2007, 05:45:05 PM
Ms. Parker advised that there is no guidance on NCO wear of the TPU.
You just said to wear the blue epaulets... I would assume one would put on the enamel pin on rank on the service coat with cap cutouts on lapels?
Quote from: SeattleSarge on August 22, 2007, 05:45:05 PM
I'm hoping that the efforts of CMSgt Chaifos will help push a clear, coherent policy on this topic.
-SeattleSarge
Quote from: SeattleSarge on August 22, 2007, 05:45:05 PM
Ms. Parker advised that there is no guidance on NCO wear of the TPU.
That's why I
hate these instant brand-new uniform roll-outs with
no forethought from NHQ or whomever develops them.
We release a new uniform. Whoops! We forgot about [flight officers/NCOs/Senior Members without grade/some other group]... here's a change to fix that.
Whoops! We forgot that there are CAP members in climates colder than ours. Guess we had better come up with some outerwear. Here's a change to fix that.
Whoops! We forgot that we had
females in Civil Air Patrol; guess we need to develop a uniform for them, too.
Whoops! We forgot to offer specific guidance on wearing of X, Y, and Z. Let's see if we can come up with something... here's a interim change letter.
Whoops! We're adding a new patch/badge/insignia. Here's an interim change letter. Place the new doohicky here on Space ABC.
Whoops! We forgot that we already put something else in Space ABC. Let's see..... here's an interim change letter to put that somewhere else.
Whoops! We forgot that we mandated wear of F, G, H, and I and also authorized the wear of J and K, but Vanguard doesn't make the insignia yet. Guess you'll have to wait.
Whoops! We don't know how to look at the big picture. Please, stop us from making any more changes before we hurt ourselves.
Go Pylon!
Quote from: Pylon on August 21, 2007, 10:30:56 PM
Quote from: afgeo4 on August 21, 2007, 08:31:43 PM
LOL probably cause they're not authorized by anyone? Is this another attempt by Vanguard to create demand before there's a product?
They're authorized for wear with the TPU. That's what you're supposed to wear... blue epaulet sleeves with embroidered grade insignia.
Where does it say that NCO's and Flight Officers wear blue epaulet sleeves with embroidered grade insignia on TPU?
Quote from: afgeo4 on August 22, 2007, 07:25:39 PM
Quote from: Pylon on August 21, 2007, 10:30:56 PM
Quote from: afgeo4 on August 21, 2007, 08:31:43 PM
LOL probably cause they're not authorized by anyone? Is this another attempt by Vanguard to create demand before there's a product?
They're authorized for wear with the TPU. That's what you're supposed to wear... blue epaulet sleeves with embroidered grade insignia.
Where does it say that NCO's and Flight Officers wear blue epaulet sleeves with embroidered grade insignia on TPU?
On a notepad in Ms. Parker's office since everyone else forgot. ;)
Quote from: JC004 on August 22, 2007, 07:36:44 PM
Quote from: afgeo4 on August 22, 2007, 07:25:39 PM
Quote from: Pylon on August 21, 2007, 10:30:56 PM
Quote from: afgeo4 on August 21, 2007, 08:31:43 PM
LOL probably cause they're not authorized by anyone? Is this another attempt by Vanguard to create demand before there's a product?
They're authorized for wear with the TPU. That's what you're supposed to wear... blue epaulet sleeves with embroidered grade insignia.
Where does it say that NCO's and Flight Officers wear blue epaulet sleeves with embroidered grade insignia on TPU?
On a notepad in Ms. Parker's office since everyone else forgot. ;)
She must have a stack of notepads by now lol
Here'a a picture of her desk...
(http://www.markeedragon.com/screenshots/data/500/4Post-its_2.jpg)
Not actually her desk, but humorous none the less...
Here are the two types of epaulets mentioned...
(http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z281/kb7jcp/capncoepaulets.jpg)
-SeattleSarge
Where'd you get the pic?
Quote from: afgeo4 on August 22, 2007, 08:55:09 PM
Where'd you get the pic?
I took it about 5 minutes ago... My personal equipment.
-SeattleSarge
Regarding E-4 NCO equivalency in the CAP, this was lifted from the CAP Knowledgebase....
CAP NCO rank from prior military service
Question
I would like to keep my NCO rank from prior Air Force service. I was a SGT. E-4. Now that Sgt has been eliminated, can I wear the SSgt rank?
Answer
No. See Section F (below) of CAP REGULATION 35-5 (E) CAP OFFICER AND NONCOMMISSIONED OFFICER APPOINTMENTS AND PROMOTIONS
CAP members have the option of wearing the highest enlisted grade earned from prior military service. CAP grade must be equivalent to prior service grade (Army or Navy E-6 would be Tech Sergeant). In this case AF equivalent for E-4 is senior airman. Equivalent for E-5 is SSgt. See Section F below for procedures for appointment to CAP noncommissioned officer (NCO) grades.
SECTION F- NONCOMMISSIONED OFFICER GRADES
27. General. This section prescribes the requirements and procedures for appointment to CAP noncommissioned officer (NCO) grades.
28. Eligibility requirements.
a. Only those CAP members who are military or ex-military NCOs and do not wish to be considered for CAP officer grades may be appointed to a CAP NCO grade under provisions of this section. The CAP grade granted will be equivalent to the grade held in the active duty military, Reserve or National Guard.
b. The member must also have completed Level I and Cadet Protection Program training of the Senior Member Training Program.
29. Procedures. Members who meet the eligibility requirement outlined above may assume a CAP NCO grade equivalent to their military grade upon presentation of documentation to the unit commander (a copy of DD Form 214, military identification card, or promotion order showing the grade requested is considered sufficient). The CAPF 2 will be annotated to reflect the NCO grade authorized and forward this form to National Headquarters for recording. The member is authorized to wear the grade on the CAP uniform as soon as verification of the military NCO grade is received.
Your military experience may qualify you for advanced CAP grade. See answer below and CAPR 35-5.
Next question... where'd you get those epaulets? USAF epaulets come in E-7 to E-9 only since it's the priviledge of SNCOs to wear epaulets like commissioned officers on blues (service dress, bdu's and mess dress get chevrons on sleeves).
Quote from: afgeo4 on August 22, 2007, 09:02:52 PM
Next question... where'd you get those epaulets? USAF epaulets come in E-7 to E-9 only since it's the priviledge of SNCOs to wear epaulets like commissioned officers on blues (service dress, bdu's and mess dress get chevrons on sleeves).
They were made as a custom order by Vanguard. They are only available for CAP NCOs. You're correct, of course, USAF only allows epaulets for the top three NCO grades.
These are specific to the CAP corporate (Aviator Shirt) uniform combination.
-SeattleSarge
Interesting... how much did they cost and how long did it take for you to get them?
Quote from: afgeo4 on August 22, 2007, 09:07:45 PM
Interesting... how much did they cost and how long did it take for you to get them?
They were around $14.00 for the pair. How long is another story.... It took around six months.
-SeattleSarge
Oh, and regarding the TPU... Ms. Parker told me that the TPU is not authorized for NCO wear until action is taken by the "National Uniform Board", or group, or such.
Sorry if I didn't make that more clear.
-SeattleSarge
Quote from: SeattleSarge on August 22, 2007, 09:20:12 PM
Oh, and regarding the TPU... Ms. Parker told me that the TPU is not authorized for NCO wear until action is taken by the "National Uniform Board", or group, or such.
-SeattleSarge
There is a National Uniform board/group/committee? You have got to be kidding me! Where were they when all these uniform changes came about. Where are they to accept criticism, complaint and suggestions? Who is on this uniform thing? How do we get on this uniform thing?
Quote from: afgeo4 on August 22, 2007, 09:02:52 PM
Next question... where'd you get those epaulets? USAF epaulets come in E-7 to E-9 only since it's the priviledge of SNCOs to wear epaulets like commissioned officers on blues (service dress, bdu's and mess dress get chevrons on sleeves).
That idea's history - the only place to wear those is on the sweaters. Nowadays, you have to have stripes sewn on your shirts.
Just another case of the man keeping us down...
Quote from: mikeylikey on August 22, 2007, 09:38:11 PM
Quote from: SeattleSarge on August 22, 2007, 09:20:12 PM
Oh, and regarding the TPU... Ms. Parker told me that the TPU is not authorized for NCO wear until action is taken by the "National Uniform Board", or group, or such.
-SeattleSarge
There is a National Uniform board/group/committee? You have got to be kidding me! Where were they when all these uniform changes came about. Where are they to accept criticism, complaint and suggestions? Who is on this uniform thing? How do we get on this uniform thing?
Sorry Mikey... I don't make this stuff up...
-SeattleSarge
Folks,
Clarification; Senior NCOs (MSgt - CMSgt) in the AF can either wear "chevrons (aka; stripes)" on their short sleeve or long sleeve blue shirt or blue epaulets (rank shoulder boards) with their rank insignia on the lapel. All other NCOs (SSgt and TSgt) will wear chevrons.
I would hope the same standard will apply to the CAP AF type uniform...I think it does.
Rube11
Quote from: Rube11 on August 22, 2007, 10:05:51 PM
Clarification; Senior NCOs (MSgt - CMSgt) in the AF can either wear "chevrons (aka; stripes)" on their short sleeve or long sleeve blue shirt or blue epaulets (rank shoulder boards) with their rank insignia on the lapel. All other NCOs (SSgt and TSgt) will wear chevrons.
I would hope the same standard will apply to the CAP AF type uniform...I think it does.
Rube11
As with many things in CAPM 39-1, CAP regs differ from USAF directives on uniform wear. There are
no distinctions between NCOs and SNCOs when it comes to rank insignia wear or placement.
-SeattleSarge
Quote from: Rube11 on August 22, 2007, 10:05:51 PM
Clarification; Senior NCOs (MSgt - CMSgt) in the AF can either wear "chevrons (aka; stripes)" on their short sleeve or long sleeve blue shirt or blue epaulets (rank shoulder boards) with their rank insignia on the lapel.
Not any more. Del. As of October, it's only stripes on shirt sleeves. The shoulder marks are now only worn on the sweaters.
Copy Steve,
So NHQ has approved a SSgt and TSgt Shoulder Board Epaulet for CAP AF equivalent uniforms?
It has been my understanding since 1995 that CAP will conform to USAF Standards for uniform wear, including accouterments. Shoulder boards are restricted to the top-three in the AD and CAP should comply.
NOTE: I hated the shoulder boards...I earned my chevrons and was proud to show them off...(I'm off my soap box now).
Rubell
Quote from: Rube11 on August 22, 2007, 10:24:02 PM
So NHQ has approved a SSgt and TSgt Shoulder Board Epaulet for CAP AF equivalent uniforms?
Actually, it's only for the corporate uniform - aviator shirt/blue pants combination. Not the USAF style uniform.
-SeattleSarge
Holy Batman...
This is why many folks wear the Golf Shirt...
Chief C...where are you??? Need some standardization!
Rube11
Quote from: Rube11 on August 22, 2007, 10:24:02 PM
It has been my understanding since 1995 that CAP will conform to USAF Standards for uniform wear, including accouterments. Shoulder boards are restricted to the top-three in the AD and CAP should comply.
They should, but they don't. And when it came to the corporates, the Air Force doesn't care. But it should be standardized though. Either stripes on sleeve for both, or epaulets for both. Too many different criteria for too many different uniforms.
I'm betting Vanguard could make a lot more money off grey stripes for those uniforms than they could for epaulets.
Quote from: shorning on August 22, 2007, 10:16:10 PM
Quote from: Rube11 on August 22, 2007, 10:05:51 PM
Clarification; Senior NCOs (MSgt - CMSgt) in the AF can either wear "chevrons (aka; stripes)" on their short sleeve or long sleeve blue shirt or blue epaulets (rank shoulder boards) with their rank insignia on the lapel.
Not any more. Del. As of October, it's only stripes on shirt sleeves. The shoulder marks are now only worn on the sweaters.
I know. I just don't get why. Is it so hard to make it all standardized and make SNCO's wear the enamel pin-ons?
Quote from: afgeo4 on August 23, 2007, 03:13:44 PM
Quote from: shorning on August 22, 2007, 10:16:10 PM
Quote from: Rube11 on August 22, 2007, 10:05:51 PM
Clarification; Senior NCOs (MSgt - CMSgt) in the AF can either wear "chevrons (aka; stripes)" on their short sleeve or long sleeve blue shirt or blue epaulets (rank shoulder boards) with their rank insignia on the lapel.
Not any more. Del. As of October, it's only stripes on shirt sleeves. The shoulder marks are now only worn on the sweaters.
I know. I just don't get why. Is it so hard to make it all standardized and make SNCO's wear the enamel pin-ons?
Embroidered epaulets look a lot better than pinning metal on a blank one. Since CAP has decided to use shoulder marks, that's probably the most professional looking manner.
At present, NCO's don't promote, so there really is no need for "quick change". And even if they eventually are promotable, they won't promote as fast as cadet officers do.
This is the answer from Vanguard about the NCO epaulets.
"Thank you for your inquiry. Unfortunately, Vanguard Is not yet producing any of the senior NCO gray epaulets. We are developing prototypes for NHQ approval. It is anticipated that this project will be completed within the next six to eight weeks.
v/r
Charles Bostwick
Director Elite Services
Vanguard Industries
1-800-221-1264 X 21"
Quote from: afgeo4 on August 23, 2007, 03:13:44 PM
[I know. I just don't get why. Is it so hard to make it all standardized and make SNCO's wear the enamel pin-ons?
As an ex-Army type, pinning the enamel pins on the collar points (ala USA and USMC) would suit me just fine. I would want this option for the white aviator shirt only and mandate sleeve grade for all other uniforms except the flight suit.
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on August 23, 2007, 08:05:17 PM
This is the answer from Vanguard about the NCO epaulets.
"Thank you for your inquiry. Unfortunately, Vanguard Is not yet producing any of the senior NCO gray epaulets. We are developing prototypes for NHQ approval. It is anticipated that this project will be completed within the next six to eight weeks.
v/r
Charles Bostwick
Director Elite Services
Vanguard Industries
1-800-221-1264 X 21"
Which means it takes about 2 years and 6-8 weeks to figure out how to embroider stirpes? ???
(Walks away crying inside)
Elite Services
*dun dun dun...Vanguard Ranger!*
Sorry, couldn't help myself.
You know, I've been thinking about this quite a bit - could it be that Vanguard has been slow on the uptake on things like this because our own uniform policies are so confusing they're having a hard time translating them?
Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 23, 2007, 08:09:47 PM
You know, I've been thinking about this quite a bit - could it be that Vanguard has been slow on the uptake on things like this because our own uniform policies are so confusing they're having a hard time translating them?
It could also be that the senior NCO's are such a small niche that we are way down the priority list.
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on August 23, 2007, 08:09:22 PM
Quote from: afgeo4 on August 23, 2007, 03:13:44 PM
[I know. I just don't get why. Is it so hard to make it all standardized and make SNCO's wear the enamel pin-ons?
As an ex-Army type, pinning the enamel pins on the collar points (ala USA and USMC) would suit me just fine. I would want this option for the white aviator shirt only and mandate sleeve grade for all other uniforms except the flight suit.
It would be very confusing as it would look a lot like cadet insignia. Would you be against pinning it onto a blank blue epaulet wich CAP embroidered on it? Those already exist for cadets.
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on August 23, 2007, 08:12:38 PM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 23, 2007, 08:09:47 PM
You know, I've been thinking about this quite a bit - could it be that Vanguard has been slow on the uptake on things like this because our own uniform policies are so confusing they're having a hard time translating them?
It could also be that the senior NCO's are such a small niche that we are way down the priority list.
Yes... and the Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force is the lowest lol.
I think the problem isn't the SNCOs. The problem are those who wear the birds and stars who forget that NCOs exist (which will always come back to bite them in the rudder).
Quote from: afgeo4 on August 23, 2007, 08:14:09 PM
It would be very confusing as it would look a lot like cadet insignia. Would you be against pinning it onto a blank blue epaulet which CAP embroidered on it? Those already exist for cadets.
I don't think that we would be confused with cadets since we are only talking wear on the white aviator shirt in whatever combination that it is authorized for wear. I fully support sleeve insignia for all other uniforms. Hell, I'd even support sleeve insignia for the white aviator shirt if that was the policy.
I wouldn't have a problem with pinning the insignia to the gray epaulet's that are currently available although that method is a pain when taking off a coat.
I just want a policy that makes sense of what is available - or likely to be available in the foreseeable future.
The white aviator shirt/blue pants combo is authorized for cadets over the age of 18, so there's a chance you or another NCO could be confused for a cadet NCO if you just wear pin ons on collar.
Curious... how does pinning rank onto epaulets make it harder when taking off a coat? It gets caught on the inside of the jacket? How does the army deal with the regimental crests?
Quote from: afgeo4 on August 23, 2007, 08:59:58 PM
Curious... how does pinning rank onto epaulets make it harder when taking off a coat? It gets caught on the inside of the jacket? How does the army deal with the regimental crests?
Yes, they get caught on the jacket lining.
The DUI are worn in the middle of the shoulder and don't seem to catch as much as items at the sleeve. As a dual component, I occasionally had problems with LT bars if I wore an overcoat.
Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 23, 2007, 08:09:47 PM
You know, I've been thinking about this quite a bit - could it be that Vanguard has been slow on the uptake on things like this because our own uniform policies are so confusing they're having a hard time translating them?
Quote from: afgeo4 on August 23, 2007, 08:17:14 PM
I think the problem isn't the SNCOs. The problem are those who wear the birds and stars who forget that NCOs exist (which will always come back to bite them in the rudder).
Hmmm, makes a lot of sense.
Nah, that couldn't be it...
>:D
Quote from: afgeo4 on August 23, 2007, 08:59:58 PM
The white aviator shirt/blue pants combo is authorized for cadets over the age of 18, so there's a chance you or another NCO could be confused for a cadet NCO if you just wear pin ons on collar.
Curious... how does pinning rank onto epaulets make it harder when taking off a coat? It gets caught on the inside of the jacket? How does the army deal with the regimental crests?
DUI (Regimantal Crests) are ony worn on the shoulder in Class "A" Uniform. Otherwise, they're on the headgear and the right side over the pocket.
Quote from: afgeo4 on August 23, 2007, 08:17:14 PM
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on August 23, 2007, 08:12:38 PM
Quote from: jimmydeanno on August 23, 2007, 08:09:47 PM
You know, I've been thinking about this quite a bit - could it be that Vanguard has been slow on the uptake on things like this because our own uniform policies are so confusing they're having a hard time translating them?
It could also be that the senior NCO's are such a small niche that we are way down the priority list.
Yes... and the Chief Master Sergeant of the Air Force is the lowest lol.
I think the problem isn't the SNCOs. The problem are those who wear the birds and stars who forget that NCOs exist (which will always come back to bite them in the rudder).
It's just econ.
I'd guess we have about two to three hundred NCO's in CAP. 300 into 5 grades means we're talking at best 100 people who might need this grade insignia, before you subtract those who will never wear white and grays or TPU's. That's a lot of tooling up for so few people.
They'd be much better off going with pin on grade on plain gray slides, though it might be a hassle dealing with it hooking on outergarments.
^ Just over 10 years I've only seen 2 CAP NCOs and one decided to convert once he made Lt Col (he was a CMSgt). So I agree, there really isn't much "demand" for them like there are cadet insignia.
It's sort of like bakeries at grocery stores, they never actually make money, but they provide them as a convenience item. Maybe the same is true with Vanguard, yeah, they can make them, but prefer not to.
There aren't many flight officers in CAP either, but they make insignia for them (NOT TPU)
I was down at Osan AB yesterday and talked to Mr Min at Royal Bag. When I get back, I'm going to order two sets of the blank slides from Vanguard and send them to him to have MSgt embroidered on them. When I get them back, I'll post a picture on this thread. If they're acceptable, I'll release the information for everyone.
So instead of asking Van... to custom manufacturer you want us to have some random shop outside of Osan to do it? Isn't that a bit silly?
Quote from: afgeo4 on August 24, 2007, 07:30:04 PM
So instead of asking Van... to custom manufacturer you want us to have some random shop outside of Osan to do it? Isn't that a bit silly?
Read farther up, I've asked Vanguard. Their answer is not overly encouraging.
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on August 24, 2007, 07:36:28 PM
Quote from: afgeo4 on August 24, 2007, 07:30:04 PM
So instead of asking Van... to custom manufacturer you want us to have some random shop outside of Osan to do it? Isn't that a bit silly?
Read farther up, I've asked Vanguard. Their answer is not overly encouraging.
That's how they are even when it comes to items they already have in stock. What's new?
Quote from: Pylon on August 22, 2007, 07:00:02 PM
Quote from: SeattleSarge on August 22, 2007, 05:45:05 PM
Ms. Parker advised that there is no guidance on NCO wear of the TPU.
That's why I hate these instant brand-new uniform roll-outs with no forethought from NHQ or whomever develops them.
We release a new uniform. Whoops! We forgot about [flight officers/NCOs/Senior Members without grade/some other group]... here's a change to fix that.
Whoops! We forgot that there are CAP members in climates colder than ours. Guess we had better come up with some outerwear. Here's a change to fix that.
Whoops! We forgot that we had females in Civil Air Patrol; guess we need to develop a uniform for them, too.
Whoops! We forgot to offer specific guidance on wearing of X, Y, and Z. Let's see if we can come up with something... here's a interim change letter.
Whoops! We're adding a new patch/badge/insignia. Here's an interim change letter. Place the new doohicky here on Space ABC.
Whoops! We forgot that we already put something else in Space ABC. Let's see..... here's an interim change letter to put that somewhere else.
Whoops! We forgot that we mandated wear of F, G, H, and I and also authorized the wear of J and K, but Vanguard doesn't make the insignia yet. Guess you'll have to wait.
Whoops! We don't know how to look at the big picture. Please, stop us from making any more changes before we hurt ourselves.
Michael Kieloch is my new hero.
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on August 26, 2007, 05:59:05 AM
Michael Kieloch is my new hero.
Chuck Norris wants to be Mike Kieloch when he grows up...
Quote from: SAR-EMT1 on August 26, 2007, 05:59:05 AM
Michael Kieloch is my new hero.
He was my hero first. Lay off. >:(
^ Who is this Michael Kieloch guy?
Quote from: Trung Si Ma on August 23, 2007, 08:05:17 PM
This is the answer from Vanguard about the NCO epaulets.
"Thank you for your inquiry. Unfortunately, Vanguard Is not yet producing any of the senior NCO gray epaulets. We are developing prototypes for NHQ approval. It is anticipated that this project will be completed within the next six to eight weeks.
v/r
Charles Bostwick
Director Elite Services
Vanguard Industries
1-800-221-1264 X 21"
Good luck with Bostwick. He's the reason it took over six months to get my epaulets. A previous thread has my response to their final screw-up...
http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=2214.msg38759#msg38759
Having them made yourself, is probably the best idea so far...
Regards,
-SeattleSarge