CAP Talk

General Discussion => Membership => Topic started by: SAR-EMT1 on March 23, 2007, 09:01:48 AM

Poll
Question: Should SMs recite an oath at meetings, Would this help with Professionalism?
Option 1: Yes With Tweaking
Option 2: Yes Sir!
Option 3: No
Option 4: Dont even go there!
Option 5: Unsure
Title: CAP SENIOR OATH
Post by: SAR-EMT1 on March 23, 2007, 09:01:48 AM
OK, I was thinking to myself: with all the hype about increasing our professionalism what could be a "simple aid" or an easy reminder of our purpose?

I thought next about my days as a cadet, the new-ish safety pledge and then it hit me: An oath of Service/Office/ Commission for Senior Members to recite upon joining/ receiving first promotion.
This Could be restated - in short form- before each meeting same as cadets do.

I know that we don't have commissions per se and that we are not - at this time as 'military' as the cadet program. My simple question is:
Can such a thing make a difference?

If yes: would you mind stating a sample oath?
If No: Can it  be tweaked/renamed to work?
Title: Re: CAP SENIOR OATH
Post by: AlphaSigOU on March 23, 2007, 10:48:22 AM
Here's one that appeared on the old Civil Air Portal when there was a discussion about a 'commissioning' oath of office for CAP senior members:

QuoteI, [state your full name] having been appointed a [grade] in the Civil Air Patrol, do solemnly swear [or affirm] that I voluntarily subscribe to the objectives and purposes of the Civil Air Patrol. I agree to be guided by and comply with the Constitution, Bylaws and the rules and regulations of the Civil Air Patrol; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter, SO HELP ME GOD.
Title: Re: CAP SENIOR OATH
Post by: Psicorp on March 23, 2007, 12:09:19 PM
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on March 23, 2007, 10:48:22 AM
Here's one that appeared on the old Civil Air Portal when there was a discussion about a 'commissioning' oath of office for CAP senior members:

QuoteI, [state your full name] having been appointed a [grade] in the Civil Air Patrol, do solemnly swear [or affirm] that I voluntarily subscribe to the objectives and purposes of the Civil Air Patrol. I agree to be guided by and comply with the Constitution, Bylaws and the rules and regulations of the Civil Air Patrol; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter, SO HELP ME GOD.


Interesting.  I do think there should be some sort of commissioning  appointing ceremonial oath when a SM becomes an Officer, and I think that one is a good place to start.  I would change it a bit and leave out the ending, but that's just me.
Title: Re: CAP SENIOR OATH
Post by: floridacyclist on March 23, 2007, 12:35:16 PM
Or make the ending optional...that part is kind of touchy.

I for one think a bigger deal needs to be made when someone crosses that line into officership as that is the first advancement they've made in what is hoped to be a long and fruitful CAP career. I think an oath of commissioning would be great to go along with the presentation of their first bar or even Level 1/presentation of their Membership Ribbon.

I'm not a big fan of mandatory oaths at meetings and such. Ever since our new dept head took over, he has made everyone recite a pledge at the start of every class and meeting promising to be faithful and true, putting the public interest and safety ahead of our own comfort and lives if needed (it's very similar to the Army oath as does our Code of Conduct, not surprising since he is retired Army).

To be honest, I still don't feel any more professional since we started doing it.

Just like putting us into ties is supposed to make us more professional...all it does is give the inmates a handle.
Title: Re: CAP SENIOR OATH
Post by: A.Member on March 23, 2007, 02:38:33 PM
I'd have no heartburn over some sort of oath upon initial membership but regularly reciting oaths and what not at meetings is silly and ineffective (and I say that as respectfully as possible). 

Simply conducting organized professional meetings, which include uniforms, agendas, opening and closing formations, etc., is much better approach.  It's a cultural thing.  If you have a professional culture, your people will feel professional and conduct themselves in a professional manner.
Title: Re: CAP SENIOR OATH
Post by: pixelwonk on March 23, 2007, 02:54:48 PM
Think about how much you loved doing the safety pledge at every meeting.  Add the PoA and the new Senior oath and you're spending a significant time just reciting oaths.  Especially if your cadets recite theirs before or after.

It's a fine Oath of Appointment  but at every meeting? Dare I say that sounds pretty [old-time euphemism for happy]

might strike duties of the office upon which I am about to enter, for duties of the apointment upon which I am about to enter.
Title: Re: CAP SENIOR OATH
Post by: FARRIER on March 23, 2007, 03:27:46 PM
Quote from: A.Member on March 23, 2007, 02:38:33 PM
I'd have no heartburn over some sort of oath upon initial membership but regularly reciting oaths and what not at meetings is silly and ineffective (and I say that as respectfully as possible). 

Simply conducting organized professional meetings, which include agendas, opening and closing formations, etc., is much better approach.  It's a cultural thing.  If you have a professional culture, your people will feel professional and conduct themselves in a professional manner.


We actually agree on this point.  ;D
Title: Re: CAP SENIOR OATH
Post by: Fifinella on March 23, 2007, 04:10:51 PM
Quote from: FARRIER on March 23, 2007, 03:27:46 PM
Quote from: A.Member on March 23, 2007, 02:38:33 PM
I'd have no heartburn over some sort of oath upon initial membership but regularly reciting oaths and what not at meetings is silly and ineffective (and I say that as respectfully as possible). 

Simply conducting organized professional meetings, which include agendas, opening and closing formations, etc., is much better approach.  It's a cultural thing.  If you have a professional culture, your people will feel professional and conduct themselves in a professional manner.


We actually agree on this point.  ;D
Ditto.
Title: Re: CAP SENIOR OATH
Post by: afgeo4 on March 23, 2007, 07:00:04 PM
I would like such an oath to be administered at the initial appointment to 2nd Lt, but I think that reciting it at meetings would make it as mundane, routine, and meaningless as the safety pledge once was. We tend to take for granted the things we do on daily basis. I would support the riciting of this at every promotion from 2nd Lt to MajGen though. Perhaps it would re-instill the pride and conviction that comes with such a promotion. It would also add some seriousness to the procedure that is often more of a "gift-basket giving" ceremony than a military promotion. I would also approve of a promotion certificate with such an oath on it to be signed by the officer promoted and by his commanding authority similar to how it's done in the military.
Title: Re: CAP SENIOR OATH
Post by: desert rat on March 23, 2007, 07:04:10 PM
For some who want to be military OK.  Many people join not to gain the military feel though.  Make it something they don't have to take time to memorize.

Why not just brand them with a CAP branding iorn?  >:D
Title: Re: CAP SENIOR OATH
Post by: FARRIER on March 23, 2007, 07:13:27 PM
A good question here. I'm asking only those who actually hold or once held commissioned rank in the armed forces, is the oath taken upon commissioning only?

Title: Re: CAP SENIOR OATH
Post by: Pylon on March 23, 2007, 07:14:24 PM
Should there be an oath for senior members?   
I think so.  
(And not that "membership agreement posing as a three paragraph oath" on the CAPF 12)  An oath for new SMs, whether administered at time of application, or time of promotion to an officer grade, I think would improve a sense of belonging and a sense of obligation to the organization.   I'm all for it.


Should senior members have to recite things at meetings? 
I don't think so.  
I don't think reciting anything conjures up more professionalism or awareness or whatever you're looking for.  Just look at the safety pledge for a perfect example.  It was widely despised and did it actually make us more safe?  I doubt it.   We can be professional and have productive meetings without reciting an "oath" or a "pledge" at each meeting.

Title: Re: CAP SENIOR OATH
Post by: afgeo4 on March 23, 2007, 07:22:47 PM
Quote from: desert rat on March 23, 2007, 07:04:10 PM
For some who want to be military OK.  Many people join not to gain the military feel though.  Make it something they don't have to take time to memorize.

Why not just brand them with a CAP branding iorn?  >:D
So you're saying there are members who join CAP because they don't want the military feel around them? And these members want to make sure they don't have to memorize anything while they're among our ranks?

Perhaps your unit should rethink who they're recruiting and why!
Title: Re: CAP SENIOR OATH
Post by: Lancer on March 23, 2007, 07:38:23 PM
Quote from: afgeo4 on March 23, 2007, 07:22:47 PM
So you're saying there are members who join CAP because they don't want the military feel around them? And these members want to make sure they don't have to memorize anything while they're among our ranks?

Perhaps your unit should rethink who they're recruiting and why!

It's stuff like that, that chaps my ass.

as an aside:
The same problem exists in the Scouts, even thought they are not as militar-esque as our organization, there is still a level of military-like esprit de corp that exists in their program that most leaders in scouting take a blind eye to in regards to how the local units are run. No sense of pride in the uniform, or reciting the respective scout oath, etc.

I'll talk to my co-workers about CAP when they tell me they have kids old enough to get in the program and they chirp back "Oh heck no, my kids are going to have NOTHING to do with the military" and the conversation ends there. Oi.

But back to the subject...

I'm getting my gold bars on the 27th, and would love to have something to recite.  ;)
Title: Re: CAP SENIOR OATH
Post by: LtCol White on March 23, 2007, 07:56:34 PM
At the LAWG HQ meetings the oath that is recited after the Pledge of Allegiance is the CAP Safety Pledge. This seems reasonable to me.
Title: Re: CAP SENIOR OATH
Post by: Fifinella on March 23, 2007, 08:33:09 PM
Quote from: FARRIER on March 23, 2007, 07:13:27 PM
A good question here. I'm asking only those who actually hold or once held commissioned rank in the armed forces, is the oath taken upon commissioning only?


No, it's taken again at every promotion.
Title: Re: CAP SENIOR OATH
Post by: FARRIER on March 23, 2007, 10:34:50 PM
Quote from: Fifinella on March 23, 2007, 08:33:09 PM
Quote from: FARRIER on March 23, 2007, 07:13:27 PM
A good question here. I'm asking only those who actually hold or once held commissioned rank in the armed forces, is the oath taken upon commissioning only?


No, it's taken again at every promotion.

Thank you
Title: Re: CAP SENIOR OATH
Post by: lordmonar on March 23, 2007, 11:34:12 PM
Quote from: AlphaSigOU on March 23, 2007, 10:48:22 AM
Here's one that appeared on the old Civil Air Portal when there was a discussion about a 'commissioning' oath of office for CAP senior members:

QuoteI, [state your full name] having been appointed a [grade] in the Civil Air Patrol, do solemnly swear [or affirm] that I voluntarily subscribe to the objectives and purposes of the Civil Air Patrol. I agree to be guided by and comply with the Constitution, Bylaws and the rules and regulations of the Civil Air Patrol; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter, SO HELP ME GOD.

The only problem I have with this oath is that it is just an oath to CAP and nothing larger.  It does not swear anything to the USAF, Congress, or the American People.

How about
QuoteI, [state your name] do solemnly swear to support my community, my state and my nation.  Obey the orders the Board of Governors and the officers appointed over me in accordance with the regulations of the Civil Air Patrol.  I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter.

And I voted not to reciting this at each meeting.  Adults do need to a reminder of why we are here but not every meeting.  Cadets are a different order all togther so it's okay for them.

I do thin that an oath of office should be said at each promotion.
Title: Re: CAP SENIOR OATH
Post by: ZigZag911 on March 24, 2007, 04:37:33 AM
Quote from: afgeo4 on March 23, 2007, 07:00:04 PM
I would like such an oath to be administered at the initial appointment to 2nd Lt, but I think that reciting it at meetings would make it as mundane, routine, and meaningless as the safety pledge once was. We tend to take for granted the things we do on daily basis. I would support the riciting of this at every promotion from 2nd Lt to MajGen though. Perhaps it would re-instill the pride and conviction that comes with such a promotion. It would also add some seriousness to the procedure that is often more of a "gift-basket giving" ceremony than a military promotion. I would also approve of a promotion certificate with such an oath on it to be signed by the officer promoted and by his commanding authority similar to how it's done in the military.

Concur.

An annual renewal ceremony -- maybe for CAP Birthday == might be appropriate.

Reciting at every meeting would render it as meaningful as the safety pledge!!!
Title: Re: CAP SENIOR OATH
Post by: SAR-EMT1 on March 24, 2007, 10:18:03 AM
Lot of great MOJO hear.. Im going to create a new thread from this as to a Commissioning OATH. Feel free to bring your thoughts and ideas for such over there.
Title: Re: CAP SENIOR OATH
Post by: O-Rex on March 25, 2007, 04:11:44 PM
Boy, that spin-off thread got nasty, didn't it? :o  Retract the claws, folks!

Initial oath: why not? Ever read the "Oath of Application" on the back of the form 12?  Seems more like Terms & Conditions of Membership.  It's a good experience for folks who have never been in the Military, a frameable addition to the "love-me" wall for those into that sorth of thing, and prehaps even a little "welcome aboard" for those who have.

Cost to the organization: minimal

Oath every time you get promoted?  I don't think it's necessary, but I think at least the pinning/sliding-on of rank by some officio is appropriate: I've seen very few public promotions, other than Wing/Region CC's.  My own promotion "pomp & circumstance" in CAP has always consisted of finding my actual date of promotion via CAPWATCH, then clicking to the approporiate website to buy the new acoutrements, and maybe even a celebratory cold one, if it's in the 'fridge.
Title: Re: CAP SENIOR OATH
Post by: DNall on March 26, 2007, 07:38:38 AM
Both the formal commissioning document & verbal oath a military officer take are not the legal things which grant them power or position. In fact they aren't real important as legally binding things. However, a little pomp & circumstance, meaningless or otherwise, goes a very long way to obliugate people to duty, boost morale, and unify the team. That's why we add some made up formality for the benefit of our officers, and it really rechargeds them in a big way. This it the text we use:

Framed certificate:
QuoteThe National Commander of Civil Air Patrol

To all who shall see these presents, greeting:

Know ye, that reposing special trust and confidence in the patriotism, valor, fidelity, and abilities of First Lieutenant XYZ, I do appoint to date as such from the 12th day of the 12th month two thousand and six. This officer will therefore carefully and diligently discharge the duties of the office to which appointed by doing and performing all manner of things there unto belonging.

And I do strictly charge and require those officers and other personnel of lesser rank to render such obedience as is due an officer of this grade and position. And this officer is to observer and follow such orders and directives, from time to time, as may be given by the President of the United States of America, or other superior officers acting in accordance with the laws of the United States of America and regulations of the Air Force and of the Civil Air Patrol.

This commission to continue in force during the pleasure of the Civil Air Patrol, for the time being, under the provision of those Public Laws relating to the Auxiliary of the United States Air Force.

Done at Maxwell AFB, Alabama, this 12th day December in the year of our Lord 2006, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and Thirtieth.

By Order of the National Commander
Major General Anthony Pineda, CAP


Bob
Squadron Commander
Unit

Promotion order:
QuoteAttention To Orders:

The National Commander has reposed special trust and confidence in the patriotism, valor, fidelity, and professional excellence of XYZ. In view of these qualities, his demonstrated leadership potential, and dedicated service to the Auxiliary of the United States Air Force, he is therefore promoted from Second Lieutenant to First Lieutenant, with an effective date of 12 December, 2006.


Lt XYZ, would you step forward & be sworn.


I, ________________________, having been appointed a First Lieutenant, Civil Air Patrol, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter, SO HELP ME GOD.
Title: Re: CAP SENIOR OATH
Post by: SJFedor on March 26, 2007, 03:45:39 PM
Quote from: DNall on March 26, 2007, 07:38:38 AM

QuoteThe National Commander of Civil Air Patrol

To all who shall see these presents, greeting:

Know ye, that reposing special trust and confidence in the patriotism, valor, fidelity, and abilities of First Lieutenant XYZ, I do appoint to date as such from the 12th day of the 12th month two thousand and six. This officer will therefore carefully and diligently discharge the duties of the office to which appointed by doing and performing all manner of things there unto belonging.

And I do strictly charge and require those officers and other personnel of lesser rank to render such obedience as is due an officer of this grade and position. And this officer is to observer and follow such orders and directives, from time to time, as may be given by the President of the United States of America, or other superior officers acting in accordance with the laws of the United States of America and regulations of the Air Force and of the Civil Air Patrol.

This commission to continue in force during the pleasure of the Civil Air Patrol, for the time being, under the provision of those Public Laws relating to the Auxiliary of the United States Air Force.

Done at Maxwell AFB, Alabama, this 12th day December in the year of our Lord 2006, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and Thirtieth.

By Order of the National Commander
Major General Anthony Pineda, CAP


Bob
Squadron Commander
Unit


Who's Anthony Pineda? TP's italian cousin that says "fuhgetaboutit"?

:P
Title: Re: CAP SENIOR OATH
Post by: arajca on March 26, 2007, 04:01:01 PM
Quote from: O-Rex on March 25, 2007, 04:11:44 PM
Oath every time you get promoted?  I don't think it's necessary, but I think at least the pinning/sliding-on of rank by some officio is appropriate: I've seen very few public promotions, other than Wing/Region CC's.  My own promotion "pomp & circumstance" in CAP has always consisted of finding my actual date of promotion via CAPWATCH, then clicking to the approporiate website to buy the new acoutrements, and maybe even a celebratory cold one, if it's in the 'fridge.
We 'pin' seniors the same way we pin cadets. At our monthly awards ceremony, the cadets get pinned, then the seniors - whether they like it or not  >:D. On occasion we have a VIP (WG/CC, WG/DCP, ANG/CC - retired, etc) do it, when one is available.
Title: Re: CAP SENIOR OATH
Post by: afgeo4 on March 26, 2007, 04:35:37 PM
Quote from: O-Rex on March 25, 2007, 04:11:44 PM
Boy, that spin-off thread got nasty, didn't it? :o  Retract the claws, folks!

Initial oath: why not? Ever read the "Oath of Application" on the back of the form 12?  Seems more like Terms & Conditions of Membership.  It's a good experience for folks who have never been in the Military, a frameable addition to the "love-me" wall for those into that sorth of thing, and prehaps even a little "welcome aboard" for those who have.

Cost to the organization: minimal

Oath every time you get promoted?  I don't think it's necessary, but I think at least the pinning/sliding-on of rank by some officio is appropriate: I've seen very few public promotions, other than Wing/Region CC's.  My own promotion "pomp & circumstance" in CAP has always consisted of finding my actual date of promotion via CAPWATCH, then clicking to the approporiate website to buy the new acoutrements, and maybe even a celebratory cold one, if it's in the 'fridge.
Considering the amount of work we all put into to get those promotions, it's kinda sad. I would strongly suggest to your commander to reevaluate his retention program.
Title: Re: CAP SENIOR OATH
Post by: airdad on March 26, 2007, 07:03:43 PM
I'm kind of leery about the oath every meeting.  My feeling is that either you take it seriously, or you don't.  If you do, there's no need to repeat it every meeting, and if you don't repeating words won't make it so.
I do, however strongly support the idea of public promotions of seniors.
First of all, it's good for the cadets to see that the seniors who worked hard for their promotions are recognized (and good for retention, eh George?) and isn't that the lead by example we're always stressing?  The thought of anonymous promotioons is so galling, I don't want to think about it-it's counterproductive at the very least.  Every unit I have ever been associated with (4 squadrons, a group and wing HQ) have made it a point to publically recognize promoting seniors.  And yes, I could certainly go for a signed certificate acknowledging the new position and reinforcing the responsibilities thereof
Title: Re: CAP SENIOR OATH
Post by: O-Rex on March 27, 2007, 01:35:12 AM
Quote from: afgeo4 on March 26, 2007, 04:35:37 PM
Considering the amount of work we all put into to get those promotions, it's kinda sad. I would strongly suggest to your commander to reevaluate his retention program.

It's the last one that counts: I may delay my promotion to Lt. Col to coincide with our Wing Conference: I have 18 months to think about it.....

I too pushed a mil-style promotion certificate up the chain some years back, almost word-for-word what we have seen on this thread........to no avail.

Another thing that chaps my "six" is change-of-command ceremonies:  many wings do them at events above the level of the command, i.e., Squadron CoC's are done at Group Command/Staff Calls.  I caused a ruckus when I insisted that my assumption of command be done at a squadron meeting.

"What for??" the Admin Officer asked.

"If you have to ask, you just don't get it" I replied.
Title: Re: CAP SENIOR OATH
Post by: RogueLeader on March 28, 2007, 05:06:47 PM
Quote from: DNall on March 26, 2007, 07:38:38 AM

Lt XYZ, would you step forward & be sworn.


I, ________________________, having been appointed a First Lieutenant, Civil Air Patrol, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter, SO HELP ME GOD.

Amen, hoo-ah and Uh-rah
Semper VI
Title: Re: CAP SENIOR OATH
Post by: DNall on March 28, 2007, 06:05:04 PM
If I could say again... little pomp and circumstance goes a long way:

Form Sq, call member from ranks, have him stand to your right, Say:

Quote"Attention To Orders:

The National Commander has reposed special trust and confidence in the patriotism, valor, fidelity, and professional excellence of XYZ. In view of these qualities, his demonstrated leadership potential, and dedicated service to the Auxiliary of the United States Air Force, he is therefore promoted from Second Lieutenant to First Lieutenant, with an effective date of 12 December, 2006.

(pick up framed certificate & continue)

The commission reads:

To all who shall see these presents, greeting:

Know ye, that reposing special trust and confidence in the patriotism, valor, fidelity, and abilities of First Lieutenant XYZ, I do appoint to date as such from the 12th day of the 12th month two thousand and six. This officer will therefore carefully and diligently discharge the duties of the office to which appointed by doing and performing all manner of things there unto belonging.

And I do strictly charge and require those officers and other personnel of lesser rank to render such obedience as is due an officer of this grade and position. And this officer is to observer and follow such orders and directives, from time to time, as may be given by the President of the United States of America, or other superior officers acting in accordance with the laws of the United States of America and regulations of the Air Force and of the Civil Air Patrol.

This commission to continue in force during the pleasure of the Civil Air Patrol, for the time being, under the provision of those Public Laws relating to the Auxiliary of the United States Air Force.

Done at Maxwell AFB, Alabama, this 12th day December in the year of our Lord 2006, and of the Independence of the United States of America the two hundred and Thirtieth.

By Order of the National Commander
Major General Tony Pineda, CAP

(hand certificate to DC on your left, Half-right face & continue)

Lt XYZ, would you raise your right hand & be sworn?


I, ________________________, having been appointed a First Lieutenant, Civil Air Patrol, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter, SO HELP ME GOD.

Congrats Lt
(shake hands, pin grade, people clap, hand framed certificate, exchange salutes, back to ranks... carry on Sq business)

Please take a second to join me in congatulating Lt XYZ once again on his well-deserved promotion, and in expressing our our heart-felt sympathy for the increased responsibility that comes with it. (laugh) Dismissed!"