How are Squadron Commanders Selected?

[Mitchell 1969]

Hey, for the record, some of us "East coast" types do meet wildlife. Here in Georgia, several years ago I had a couple of hundred pound bear banging on our back door at lunch time while I was at work. Having called 911, the wife asked if he got in, she should shoot for a head shot (NO!) or center of mass (I told her to retreat indoors and wait for LE).

(Just in case some one questions my 2nd Amendment rights and need for 30 round clips, not that I need them for GT).

V/R,
@Spam

Somebody's going to say it. Might as well get it over with.

Magazines. Those would be 30-round magazines.

[stillamarine]

I seem to recall AKWG had rifles in their aircraft emergency kits. I don't know if they still do though and I may be wrong.

[LSThiker]

I seem to recall AKWG had rifles in their aircraft emergency kits. I don't know if they still do though and I may be wrong.

CAPR 900-3

Firearms  may  be  carried  in  survival gear  in  CAP  aircraft  when  required  by  law.    When  firearms  are  so  authorized,  they  will  not  be  removed  from  the  survival  gear  unless  an  emergency situation exists

The State of Alaska at one time required pilots to carry firearms.  I believe the law was removed in 2001 due to Canada's tightening gun laws.  Pilots that flew to the lower US would be in violation of their firearm laws. 

The Alaska Ninety-Nines have this posted on their website:

A Firearm is no longer required as of 2001. The law referencing a firearm had been on the books since the 1940's and never referenced what type of firearm (shotgun/handgun etc) therefore due to the challenges of flying to Alaska through Canadian airspace and on to Eastern countries where firearms were not allowed to be carried in an aircraft, this law was changed.

[Eclipse]

Magazines. Those would be 30-round magazines.

Negative Ghost rider.

Anything with more then 10 rounds is called a "clipazine", and they are the most operator an operator can be.

Now go brick yourself!

[LSW]

Well this has gone further off course than I ever expected. So let me say a few final things to clarify my earlier comments and my standing on bears, knives and uniforms as well as the commonness of bears in my area. You can pick at comments, but this is pretty much all I have to say on the issue as if you still do not see bears as a likely issue than you never will.

To those who answered my most recent question that did in fact get buried here due to the circumstances, thank you very much. I did read them and appreciate the input and examples about how varied CAP decisions are in the area, Squadron commander choosing and squadron commander terms.

Again I apologize for my choice to use '@' it shall not happen again.

Direct replies are below, f you want to hear more about bears read on, if you just want to know what I think of the subjects I listed earlier, see the bottom.

In the future, if you want legit answers to a legit question, your best best is not to hide the question inside
statements which are mischaracterizations of the program, or intend to troll harder then ask.

As an LSW, you, more then most, should
understand that long-standing groups have social norms...

Lastly, if bear attacks are a legitimate concern on an activity involving cadets, your ORM is too high to
continue.

Eclipse – Points taken and thank you for your answer to the question. I would argue the mischaracterizations complaint as the points I make are true. Guns are not allowed, knives must be hidden, boonie caps are not allowed, NCOs are not common, BDUs were created to hide the wearer in the woods. These are not mischaracterizations, they are facts that no one has yet claimed otherwise.

You say I have made some off-hand comments, yes indeed; off-hand is a good choice. I was not starting a new discussion, just pointing out, in my opinion, questionable decisions in an off-hand manner in reference to the somewhat chaotic nature of CAP as shown by multiple entries explaining the random way some decisions are made. I am sorry you didn't like my style and were offended by it, my apologies.

Because it was off-hand in nature I did not hide my next question, it came to mind so I tacked it on. I felt it was still the general theme of this discussion and should stay in this discussion rather than start a new thread with it.
What do you mean "As an LSW?" It is just an old username from many forums. Does it mean something I am unaware of beside a "Light Assault Weapon" and my intended use of it? I am actually curious.

Lastly you suggest that the ORM is too high for activities. The point I have been trying to make is that bears are a norm here. I will reference this further down as well; I have already had 3 bear encounters this summer. They walk down our streets, they have slept in my yard, and they walk into people's houses. Google bears in Juneau and you will find photos and videos of them right downtown. We cannot avoid them at home so we will meet them on missions. If we consider bears in the ORM we cannot leave the hangar with the cadets, certainly not take them for walks in the woods and the like.

LSThiker – I would argue you are missing the point by concentrating on words. Take a step back and look at what you are quoting; the State of Alaska has a web page devoted to the theme of human/bear interactions. The fact that a governmental web site feels that the chances of you coming across bears is great enough that they dedicate a government web site page to telling you what to do. You support my point that bears are a major concern in Alaska and bear spray is fine, but many Alaskans prefer weapons, and if the bear spray does not stop it? All I have is my knife because I don't own a gun. Bears are an issue and the state prefers bear spray but they do not forbid weapons.

I seem to recall AKWG had rifles in their aircraft emergency kits. I don't know if they still do though and I may be wrong.

Stillamarine has a point. I cannot speak for AKWing as I have never been there and they have had a turbulent year with different commanders. However you ask just about any bush pilot and they will have weapons in their planes as well as some of the rural village hoppers. Few Alaksan cities and villages are even connected by roads including Juneau. You get there by air or sea.

Bears and my comments in general:
If you watch "Alaska Aircrash Investigations" Season I Episode 2, you will see a NTSB investigator in a vault pulling a .44 Magnum for bear protection and assorted other weapons in the rack. Other episodes or news footage will show Alaska State Troopers with shotguns around the crash sites... bear protection. Alaska Fish & Game employees always carry weapons when in the bush, bear protection.
Bears are an issue here, many of these comments show a lack of understanding on how likely bear encounters are here and it is this that lead National to declare no weapons for many likely outstanding reasons for most CAP squadrons... but I am willing to bet that they did not factor in Alaska... or other states with predatorily wildlife. So instead we have, THRAWN as an example, sitting in Delaware spouting statistics based on a continent and only deaths. What do you think those 63 people in the last 109 years would think of his statistics. Statistics are fine until they include you. Juneau has never had a cadet mauled, so... great until the day it does happen. I hope it never happens and it is unlikely to happen, but they are my cadets and their safety is my responsibility and I want ever resource I have to protect them even if it means attacking a bear with a knife so it gets away from the cadet.

How many times we will encounter a mama bear with cubs in a mission? Don't we teach how to behave in the wild?

I got a good chuckle with Luis's reply where it goes on to talk about noise... has anyone ever heard of a quiet teenage cadet in the woods?  But in fact any smart Alaskan teaches their kids what to do and we teach our cadets how to react etc.

Let me better explain my situation, I live in Juneau AK, about 300 – 400 meters from the border to the Mendenhall Glacier, a federal park. About a mile away Steep Creek enters Mendenhall Lake. Salmon come into the creek and spawn every summer. I have already seen 3 bears this summer walking my dogs, two encounters were Mamas with cubs. You stand a good chance of seeing bears this time of year at the lake, In about two weeks the salmon will arrive and you can pretty much be guaranteed to see wild bears feeding on them if you stay there a few hours. I have had bears walk up to within 5 feet of me multiple times sniffing for food. I respect bears, I do not fear them. So if a tourist chopper or float plane overflying the Glacier goes down, the odds are great that we will encounter bears.

I have driven the access road many times and had to stop for bears, wolves and coyote to cross. Our local legend Romeo the black wolf played with dogs on the frozen lake until he was illegally killed in 2010. His mate was killed while pregnant with a litter by a speeding taxi after hours. I have seen wolves on our streets and bears in our yards and when I walk my dogs I expect to meet bears and my older dogs who passed this year ignored bears because they were so common. I can go on, but if you still do not comprehend the likelihood of a bear encounter during activities and missions now then you are unlikely too. In my area and downtown Juneau it is Black bears.

Juneau has an road that goes out to around 23 miles called "Out the road". Every summer there is at least one Brown bear siting. Admiralty Island is known for it's bear population. Kodiak is famous for the largest Brown bears on earth. The high north often has Polar bear encounters with oilmen and native villages.

Now bears are known for a great sense of smell and they are scavengers. If an aircraft goes down in the mountains and forests and there are wounded and/or dead, do you imagine a bear passing up a free meal? So they may head to the same crash site as we are.

So let us look at the chain of command:

Squadron Commander: Knows the wild life and terrain of their area. They know the population animal type is and the likelihood of coming into contact with said wildlife. Black bears extremely common.

Wing Commander: Knows the general wild life and terrain of the state. They generally have a feel for the population and animal type and the likelihood of coming into contact with said wildlife. Wing however has to deal with Moose for instance that we do not in SE Alaska.

Region Commander: Has a general feeling for possible wild life in their extended area. Pacific Region has a few states with possible wild life issues.

National Commander: Sits in Alabama I believe and may never have even visited Alaska and likely never lived there, maybe not even in the Pacific Northwest. No real idea about type or population of wild life is smaller areas.

So logically speaking which commander can best judge the risk to CAP members on activities and missions and make the most informed decision as to whether a Senior Member should be allowed to judge for themselves if a weapon is carried? For the record, I do not own a firearm and have bear spray, but I have also never been charged by a large bear so cannot say if bear spray is enough every time. I do believe in choice.

Final points: Juneau for instance is in the Tongass National Forest, it is a Temperate Rain Forest (earth's largest).
1)   1980's BDUs are made to hide soldiers from Russian troops in Europe. They work really well hiding cadets in rain forests, especially from the air. Should ground teams not be visible from the air and the survivors we search for? How obvious is a little red vest on a heavily wooded mountain side? This is a decision based on image and not logic.

2)   What is the more logical head gear in a temperate and mountainous rainforest, the standard soldier headgear or a floppy "Boonie hat" in an area that can get between 25" and 225" of rain a year? This is a decision based on image and not logic.

3)   The decision (forget bears) to only allow knives under uniforms and not handy wear they are quickly and easily handy, meaning for me a bright orange survival knife in an orange sheath. This is a decision based on image and not logic.
Just 3 examples, all based on how we should be seen and not based in what is logical when on a mission in a rainforest climbing a mountain looking for lost people and aircraft. My understanding is the knife rule was a result of a cowboy booted senior member with a very big knife on his belt that was highlighted by the camera operator in an interview after a successful mission. I understand why National had an issue with it and what it made us look like. But was it a knee jerk reaction? It should be used as an example of what CAP does not want, operation leaders ensure your people carry realistic knives and correct uniforms, you are the leaders and we trust you to make logical decisions... rather than just making a carpet rule that even utility and survival knives be hidden under uniforms.

Some decisions are best left to lower level leaders with more regional information, knowledge and experience.

Cheers!

[Eclipse]

What do you mean "As an LSW?"

Licensed Social Worker

you are the leaders and we trust you to make logical decisions...

And where does the standardized training and expectations, not to mention ramifications come from to make those decisions.  certainly not in the CAP
of today, assuming it ever existed.

Some decisions are best left to lower level leaders with more regional information, knowledge and experience.

Again, assumes that experience exists.  There are options open to setting local policies and equipment supplements.

Otherwise, it can be inferred that CAP, as an organization, is simply not equipped to handle, nor interested in, ground SAR in the AKWG
environment, or frankly anything more harsh then a typical forest preserve, and move on from that realization.

[arajca]

I'll pick on one minor item - boonie hats.
CAP tried multiple times to get them approved. The USAF shot it down each time. The last time, CAP pulled the safety card (sunburn prevention). No go. So, It's not CAP that's preventing you from wearing boonies, it's the USAF.

If it's raining that hard, wear a friggin' rain hat! A plain cloth hat, of any style, isn't going to do much to keep you dry or warm in a rain storm.

[THRAWN]

LSW, you seem to be under the impression that Alaska is the only place that has any kind of wildlife.

Wrong. Very wrong. By way of example, this past spring I saw black bears in one of the parks just a few miles from my home in Delaware. In addition, I have seen snakes, feral cats, deer, bobcat, fox, coyote, elk....I've spent a lot of time bending leaves in the northeast over the past 24 years. The point is, with all of the conservation and wildlife preservation activities that have been enacted since the 1970's, you see more and more animals out in them thar hills. That doesn't mean that arming up is the way to mitigate that very slight risk of human versus animal encounters.

You state that "So instead we have, THRAWN as an example, sitting in Delaware spouting statistics based on a continent and only deaths. What do you think those 63 people in the last 109 years would think of his statistics. Statistics are fine until they include you." Statistics are what risk assessments are based on. Certainly not on the reality show that you presented as an example. Your example also includes references to the AKSP and the Fish and Wildlife folks carrying firearms. They ain't us. CAP as an organization has decided that, in order to limit liability and the risk of jugheads getting their hands on a gun and shooting off their pinky toe, that no firearms are allowed. If you don't want to play by those rules, I'd suggest that you not participate in ES with CAP.

And finally, to address your final points:
1. A trained aircrew sometimes has difficulty spotting ground teams. That is true if they are wearing cammies or are wrapped in foil like a potato. That's why there are signal mirrors, radios and alternate methods of spotting.
2. Your obsession with the boonie. Asked and answered.
3. I've been a GTM since 1994. In that time, I've never needed a knife longer than 6" for any reason. If you're fighting a bear with a knife, you're doing it wrong.

[LSThiker]

I cannot speak for AKWing as I have never been there

I live in Juneau AK

If you live in Juneau, AK, then you have been to AKWG. 

the State of Alaska has a web page devoted to the theme of human/bear interactions. The fact that a governmental web site feels that the chances of you coming across bears is great enough that they dedicate a government web site page to telling you what to do.

As I said, there are thousands of bear encounters in the US each year.  The exact number is undetermined due to a variety of reasons.  Never did I say that bears are not a concern.  Never will I say that as I have had plenty of encounters with both grizzly and black bears.  (P.S. never once thought I needed a firearm).

My point, as supported by you, is that the vast majority of bear encounters do not result in attacks or deaths.   

You support my point that bears are a major concern in Alaska and bear spray is fine, but many Alaskans prefer weapons, and if the bear spray does not stop it?

Studies have shown that bear spray stops more bear attacks than firearms.  So I will ask, what happens when your firearm does not stop the bear attack?  Not one method is 100% effective of course.  However, bear spray is most effective and is not prohibited by CAP.   

Bears are an issue and the state prefers bear spray but they do not forbid weapons.

Yes of course the state does not forbid it. 

Alaska Fish & Game employees always carry weapons when in the bush, bear protection.

Even Fish and Wildlife officers in states without bears carry weapons because they are law enforcement.  CAP is not.

but I am willing to bet that they did not factor in Alaska... or other states with predatorily wildlife

Actually, read CAPR 900-3.  They did have Alaska in mind.  They have a clause that has been there since at least the 70s that allows CAP pilots to carry a firearm if required by law.  Alaska had a law that required pilots to carry firearms.  Therefore, NHQ allowed CAP pilots in Alaska to carry firearms.  However, Alaska changed the law and no longer required pilots to carry firearms.  Even though, that clause still exists today in CAPR 900-3. 

So let us look at the chain of command:

Sure, if you do not like the fact that AKWG does not have a provision to allow firearms, then submit a proposal that is well supported to your commander for approval to send up the chain of command.

For the record, I do not own a firearm and have bear spray, but I have also never been charged by a large bear so cannot say if bear spray is enough every time. I do believe in choice.

So you have had all of these encounters but have never needed bear spray or a firearm?  Great, so why the need to carry a firearm?  It sounds like bear spray is just fine.

Also, yes bear spray is very effective as a bear's sense of smell is 1000x that of a blood hound.  Spraying it with bear spray works more often than a firearm.  Instead of telling us why we need to carry firearms, instead research the effectiveness of bear spray and watch the videos. 

2)   What is the more logical head gear in a temperate and mountainous rainforest, the standard soldier headgear or a floppy "Boonie hat" in an area that can get between 25" and 225" of rain a year? This is a decision based on image and not logic.

Boonie hats are allowed with the corporate field uniform.  If you want to wear a boonie, then wear the corporate uniform.  Simple as that.  Otherwise, the USAF has said no to boonies in the USAF-style uniform.  And that is their call. 



Again, submit a proposal to your chain of command to have things changed then. 

[LSW]

Licensed Social Worker

Aahh, Ok. No, I used to do freelance web design. My father had a art studio on an ally and a name reflected that, so I used studio on the web, hence LSW for short. That is just how many people know me now.

Otherwise, it can be inferred that CAP, as an organization, is simply not equipped to handle, nor interested in, ground SAR in the AKWG environment, or frankly anything more harsh then a typical forest preserve, and move on from that realization.

Not sure how you can infer anything of the sort about a Wing based on a single persons opinion... unless I misunderstand. We do not have a ground team currently and we are trying to get our cadets trained up for it. Small plane crashes are common here so there is in theory a mission for us.

That said, the US Coast Guard does almost all SAR missions in SE Alaska. I believe I may not be understanding your post correctly, so I will just leave it at that.

LSW, you seem to be under the impression that Alaska is the only place that has any kind of wildlife.

Wrong. Very wrong. By way of example, this past spring I saw black bears in one of the parks just a few miles from my home in Delaware. In addition, I have seen snakes, feral cats, deer, bobcat, fox, coyote, elk....I've spent a lot of time bending leaves in the northeast over the past 24 years. The point is, with all of the conservation and wildlife preservation activities that have been enacted since the 1970's, you see more and more animals out in them thar hills

I have repeatedly mentioned other states having other wildlife concerns. But I am not willing to discuss other states as I have not lived there. I cannot judge where I have not lived, western states can have mountain lions and snakes, clearly Georgia has bears as Spam said and I cannot guess at how often bear encounters happen in Georgia as I was in the center of Ft. Benning. I will take your word for Delaware because I do not know the state.

You in fact support my point, bears are back in Delaware, wonderfull, and the more bears and other wildlife thrive due to preservation attempts, the increased liklihood of wildlife/human interction. More bears more chance of issues and eventually something will happen and someone in Delaware will be mauled... even if it is a hundred years from now. Your ORM will need to change with the times and the new wildlife populations.

Statistics are what risk assessments are based on. Certainly not on the reality show that you presented as an example. Your example also includes references to the AKSP and the Fish and Wildlife folks carrying firearms. They ain't us. CAP as an organization has decided that, in order to limit liability and the risk of jugheads getting their hands on a gun and shooting off their pinky toe, that no firearms are allowed. If you don't want to play by those rules, I'd suggest that you not participate in ES with CAP.

Again your ignoring the point to nit pick. You chose statistics based only on death, you did not include maulings so therefore your statistics from earlier on were not reflective of true risk conditions and they were for North America and not a specific area as I am speaking of. I am using my examples, like the TV show, to show that bears are a concern with other agencies too, not an argument that law enforcement carry guns so we should.

But as I stated, if you still do not/will not understand the point I am trying to make about the likelihood of wildlife/human interaction that you never will. I disagree with you and lets leave it at that. I won't bother with the rest of your comment as they are not worth it. And if you can enjoy bears in Delaware now, that is great to hear.   :clap:

[LSW]

I'll pick on one minor item - boonie hats.
CAP tried multiple times to get them approved. The USAF shot it down each time. The last time, CAP pulled the safety card (sunburn prevention). No go. So, It's not CAP that's preventing you from wearing boonies, it's the USAF.

Thanks for the info, forgot to acknowledge it earlier.

Cheers!

[THRAWN]

One park, but you get the idea....

https://www.nps.gov/yell/learn/nature/injuries.htm

[Spam]

Magazines. Those would be 30-round magazines.

Negative Ghost rider.

Anything with more then 10 rounds is called a "clipazine", and they are the most operator an operator can be.

Now go brick yourself!

Yeah, I got it, I got it... I was tired, it was late, mea culpa. That, and grew up shooting old rifles with a dad who is now 91...

Thanks guys
Spam (DOUBLE sigh...)

[stillamarine]

As someone that wore a boonie in the jungle that saw lots and lots of rain, I'll say this, It's not as great as you may think for "protection" from rain. The longer it rains, the wetter it gets, the more of a pain in the !!! it is.

[Alaric]

I'll pick on one minor item - boonie hats.
CAP tried multiple times to get them approved. The USAF shot it down each time. The last time, CAP pulled the safety card (sunburn prevention). No go. So, It's not CAP that's preventing you from wearing boonies, it's the USAF.

Thanks for the info, forgot to acknowledge it earlier.

Cheers!

Its definitely the AF since the you can wear the blue boonie hat with the BBDUs

[LSW]

It's not as great as you may think for "protection" from rain. The longer it rains, the wetter it gets, the more of a pain in the !!! it is.

Ok, I can see that. Point taken.

[NIN]

I'll attest to that. I was a Group CPO and was asked to take over a squadron within that group. Definitely not a good sign. An even worse sign - it was "effective Tuesday" and the current squadron commander was told only 5 minutes after I accepted - on Sunday.

I have that t-shirt, too.

I wasn't even the CPO, and I'd only been back in a blue suit for 4 months. as a brand new 1st Lt, when I showed up at a unit meeting with the the group commander who said "the Lieutenant here will be assuming command tonight."

Ugh. I was merely the interim until the designee could get FBI screened, etc. It was a rough 6 months.

[MSG Mac]

I knew a Wing Commander who was appointed before he was a member. Of course that was in the early 60s when CAP was a lot looser.

[Storm Chaser]

I saw a member back in the 90's go from 2d Lt to Lt Col as a Wing Commander and full Col a year later. He wasn't the most competent Wing Commander to say the least.

[LSThiker]

I saw a member back in the 90's go from 2d Lt to Lt Col as a Wing Commander and full Col a year later. He wasn't the most competent Wing Commander to say the least.

I remember when I was a new cadet watching a captain get promoted to colonel. I was most confused by that until later when someone explained it to me.  Although I understand it now, it still sits weird with me.