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Cadets Dating

Started by Pumbaa, January 25, 2009, 12:39:17 PM

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Pumbaa

Can anyone give me a clear reg/ rule on cadets dating?

I know it is forbidden if one cadet becomes a senior member.  But what about a 17 and a 16 y/o?

I've searched the forums and have not seen a clear direction given.

JoeTomasone

Search the regs instead. 

52-16, 1-4(h)(1-2), page 9:

Quote(1) Decorum. Cadets will conduct themselves in a professional and appropriate manner at all times while in uniform and at CAP meetings or activities. Cadets will not engage in inappropriate touching or public displays of affection by kissing, hugging or holding hands (or similar conduct) while in uniform.

(2) Fraternization. The Air Force has always prohibited unduly familiar personal relationships between leaders and followers to avoid favoritism, preferential treatment, or other actions that undermine order, discipline, and unit morale. Similarly, it is important for CAP members to avoid unduly familiar relationships with other members, while recognizing that proper social interactions and appropriate personal relationships are necessary to unit morale, esprit de corps and effective mentoring. It is not inherently improper for cadets to have personal or romantic relationships with other cadets, however, relationships between cadets of substantially different ranks, or between cadets within the chain-of-command, are discouraged. Because seniors have intrinsic supervisory authority over cadets, senior members will not date or have an intimate romantic relationship with a cadet at any time, regardless of the circumstances.

major pain

i have never seen a problem with cadets dating other than the drama of the break ups.... other than the already sited reg, there is really no guide lines... but let best judgment be the guide and let them be who they are. just don't let them make out at your next field exercise!
Lt Col Rp Kraatz, CAP
Inspector General
Kansas Wing (KSWG-01)


Always Ready

^ +1000 and make sure the Senior Members present are held to the same standard.

Make sure they keep things professional and if you see any problems arise during CAP or that would affect their mutual contribution to CAP, don't be afraid to talk with both parties about it. Remind them to keep it professional. If it consistently becomes a problem, counsel them and don't be afraid get parents involved. I've even heard some Squadron Commanders holding up promotions because certain members weren't keeping it professional. *But* if they are keeping it professional and aren't breaking any regs, don't get involved. Handle it the same way, if not better than, you would handle two Senior Members dating.

flyguy06

This reminds me of an incident I saw last summer when I went to NESA last summer. It was the day we were leaving and I saw two cadets holding each other outside of the barracks. I guess they were saying goodbye. i was walking to the dining facility. when I came back some 30 minutes later they werestill hugging wih foreheads touching and I thought that was kind of inappropriate, but i didnt say anything.  I wanted to though

caprr275

kids will be kids.... just keep it under control.... and yes I dated my fair share of female cadets when I was a cadet

flyguy06

Yes, but Cadets arent kids. Kids arent professionally trained to search for missing aircraft. so cadets arent the "typical" kids and so they should held to a higher standard than the "average" kid. If they dont have thematurity to do the right thing, then they probably dont have the maturity to do the missions that Congress has charted us to do. SAR is not a play play thing. It is serious business. Peoples lives are at stake and we need people that have a serious mindset.

D2SK

Quote from: flyguy06 on January 25, 2009, 04:13:38 PM
Yes, but Cadets arent kids. Kids arent professionally trained to search for missing aircraft. so cadets arent the "typical" kids and so they should held to a higher standard than the "average" kid. If they dont have thematurity to do the right thing, then they probably dont have the maturity to do the missions that Congress has charted us to do. SAR is not a play play thing. It is serious business. Peoples lives are at stake and we need people that have a serious mindset.

Give me a break.  Please.  Your argument doesn't make sense.  Cadets dating cadets has nothing to do with SAR.
Lighten up, Francis.

Eclipse

Anyone dating anyone in CAP is a bad idea, akin to dating someone where you work.

CAP is not a dating service, and Commanders should actively stress that point in any circumstance its appropriate.

Despite the handful of people here that will say they found their spouse in CAP, the experiences I have had with members dating have universally resulted in everything from hurt feelings and divisive situations in the local unit, to criminal charges after the fact.

Just don't do it.

"That Others May Zoom"

flyguy06

Quote from: D2SK on January 25, 2009, 04:21:49 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on January 25, 2009, 04:13:38 PM
Yes, but Cadets arent kids. Kids arent professionally trained to search for missing aircraft. so cadets arent the "typical" kids and so they should held to a higher standard than the "average" kid. If they dont have thematurity to do the right thing, then they probably dont have the maturity to do the missions that Congress has charted us to do. SAR is not a play play thing. It is serious business. Peoples lives are at stake and we need people that have a serious mindset.

Give me a break.  Please.  Your argument doesn't make sense.  Cadets dating cadets has nothing to do with SAR.


My argument isnt about cadets dating cadets. I was refering to the incidnt that I saw of PDA andhow I think it is inappropriate for professionals. then some one said kids will kids. that is what I was disputing. I dontcare if cadets date. that wasnt my point.

JoeTomasone

#10
Quote from: D2SK on January 25, 2009, 04:21:49 PM
Give me a break.  Please.  Your argument doesn't make sense.  Cadets dating cadets has nothing to do with SAR.

Indirectly, it has to do with anything that we are expected to approach as professionals.   Cadets can date and do whatever when they are out of uniform and not on "CAP time".   But when you are in uniform and at a CAP event/meeting/mission, it's time to be professional and get your game face on.   Adhering to that requirement of the regs as well as the other "little things" makes you less likely to forget the "little things" in other aspects of CAP such as flying, SAR, etc.    Ask a pilot if the "little things" matter.




Stonewall

As a cadet I dated another cadet.  Luckily we both graduated high school and went our separate ways after we were no longer active in CAP as cadets.  If not, I'm sure it would have been an awkward situation for the two of us, among others.

I think dating in CAP, JROTC, the active military, in the civilian sector at work, and all around, is natural.  I have been associated with the military for 16 years and have yet to meet a married female soldier/airman/marine that was married to someone outside the military.  Meaning, every military female I've met who is married is married to another military member.  Always the case?  I'm sure it isn't, but that is my experience.

Where do couples meet?  High school, college, volunteer programs, work, online, through mutual friends and bars.  It is human nature for people to begin a courtship with someone who is interested in the same things.  Just like in the corporate world, the military (CAP included) has some boundaries and guidelines.  It varies between organizations, but for the most part, keep your private life out of the workplace.  You can't ignore it, but you can control it.

In a perfect world we would leave our hormones at home; check'em at the door.  I've dated fellow senior members (women, of course), fellow military members, coworkers and students.  I was "single" (not married) for a long long time.  Where did I meet people?  CAP, military, school, civilian job and out while I was socializing.

Note:  I am in the Air National Guard.  In my squadron there are about 8 females.  All of the married women are married to other military members.  The two that arne't married are dating other military members.  And this is the Guard, where people have lives outside of the military.  If you can't control it in the military, don't think you can put a stop to it in CAP.
Serving since 1987.

Major Carrales

I would not encourage dating among, but when we cannot regulate cadets 24/7...as in when they are not on CAP time...they are subject to 1) privacy issues, 2) the fact that we cannot be around in an omnipotent capacity.

I don't condone it because it can lead to ackward issues when the romance ends.  Also, the drama is rarely limited to the two in question...as in other cadets have a tendency to take sides cuasing squadron disunity.
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

Flying Pig

Forget the cadets....whats even better is after the break up, the parents start getting involved because they think the male Cadet Commander is now picking on the female Cadet Deputy Commander (or whatever).  Suddenly your meeting looks like two coaches after a little league baseball game.   Seen it! Just try to keep it low key and if cadets are acting in appropriate at a meeting, deal with it quickly even if it means discipline.

Ned

Quote from: Major Carrales on January 25, 2009, 09:58:03 PM
[. . .] but when we cannot regulate cadets 24/7...as in when they are not on CAP time...they are subject to 1) privacy issues, 2) the fact that we cannot be around in an omnipotent capacity.

We've talked about this before, and I don't think we are too far apart.

But I think it goes too far to say "we cannot regulate cadets 24/7 . . . as in when they are not on CAP time."


Leaving aside for a moment the notion that the whole point of the cadet program is to affect the cadets when that "are not on CAP time," we can and do routinely regulate what CAP members do on their own time.

We tell cadets that they have to have satisfactory grades - something that clearly occurs on their own time.  We tell members that they cannot commit felonies or use illegal drugs regardless of their duty status at the time.

And there are very real CAP consequences for these actions -- even if they occur "off duty".

Again, I suspect we agree on far more than we disagree in this area, but the idea that a CAP member can be a polygamous drug mule - as long as they don't do it during unit meetings - is probably incorrect.   ;)

Eclipse

Quote from: Ned on January 26, 2009, 01:24:40 AM
Leaving aside for a moment the notion that the whole point of the cadet program is to affect the cadets when that "are not on CAP time," we can and do routinely regulate what CAP members do on their own time.

We tell cadets they can't date seniors, now.  Even if it both parties are over 18.

We expect a lot from our members even when they are not in uniform.  Another reason that CAP is more than a flying club or a local community get-together.

"That Others May Zoom"

Major Carrales

Quote from: Ned on January 26, 2009, 01:24:40 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on January 25, 2009, 09:58:03 PM
[. . .] but when we cannot regulate cadets 24/7...as in when they are not on CAP time...they are subject to 1) privacy issues, 2) the fact that we cannot be around in an omnipotent capacity.

We've talked about this before, and I don't think we are too far apart.

But I think it goes too far to say "we cannot regulate cadets 24/7 . . . as in when they are not on CAP time."


Leaving aside for a moment the notion that the whole point of the cadet program is to affect the cadets when that "are not on CAP time," we can and do routinely regulate what CAP members do on their own time.

We tell cadets that they have to have satisfactory grades - something that clearly occurs on their own time.  We tell members that they cannot commit felonies or use illegal drugs regardless of their duty status at the time.

And there are very real CAP consequences for these actions -- even if they occur "off duty".

Again, I suspect we agree on far more than we disagree in this area, but the idea that a CAP member can be a polygamous drug mule - as long as they don't do it during unit meetings - is probably incorrect.   ;)

I concur, I think we greatly agree on the basics of this matter. 

Take this senario, for example.  Imagine that two young adults meet in CAP, while they are at the meetings and other events they obey the established policies.  However, over the summer, the two become very close outside of CAP...through unrelated activities like church or camp.  They strike up a relationship...do you hold the Squadron Commander/Unit responsible for the situation should it go somehow wrong?

In reality a unit commader can do nothing more than recommend against the action.  Much in the same way a parent recommends, be they issued as commands, to refrain from sexual activity.  The true battle is built in the relationship prior to the incident and the character of the cadets in question.

Thus, since a unit is not BIG BROTHER, ultimately the rules can only be enforced actively when on a CAP activity.

Good God...the potential can exist for a Romeo and Juliet situation in CAP.
"We have been given the power to change CAP, let's keep the momentum going!"

Major Joe Ely "Sparky" Carrales, CAP
Commander
Coastal Bend Cadet Squadron
SWR-TX-454

Ned

Quote from: Major Carrales on January 26, 2009, 02:01:23 AM
Take this senario, for example.  Imagine that two young adults meet in CAP, while they are at the meetings and other events they obey the established policies.  However, over the summer, the two become very close outside of CAP...through unrelated activities like church or camp.  They strike up a relationship...do you hold the Squadron Commander/Unit responsible for the situation should it go somehow wrong?

I'm not sure if you left out the membership catagories of the lovers to make a point, but if Romeo and Juliet are both cadets or both seniors, then I agree that the commander's job is discourage the relationship if they are in the chain of command or of substantially different grades.

However, if only one of the members is a cadet, then the commander's job is clear.  The relationship will cease, or the senior will need to be a former or patron member.

Quote
Thus, since a unit is not BIG BROTHER, ultimately the rules can only be enforced actively when on a CAP activity.

I think the regulation wisely recognizes that people are people (especially cadets).  The only "bright line rule" is that seniors never, ever date cadets period.

On or off duty.  Not between meetings or out of state.

Not in box.  Not with a fox.  Seniors may not date them here or there - seniors may not date cadets anywhere.   (Oh, wait. That's another story.  8))

Eclipse

Quote from: Ned on January 26, 2009, 05:13:36 AM
However, if only one of the members is a cadet, then the commander's job is clear.  The relationship will cease, or the senior will need to be a former or patron member.

I don't think patron is an option, only former, and frankly it wouldn't be a "will cease, or" situation,  the senior is gone the minute I find out about it, because they knew the rules going in, and this is a big one.

But what about the cadet?  That's not as clear-cut. I'd be inclined to dis-invite the cadet as well, or at least consider serious disciplinary action.

Does CAP consider a "cadet" unable to "legally" (CAP-wise) consent to dating a senior?  I say they are both responsible, especially if the cadet is over 18. 

"That Others May Zoom"

JoeTomasone

Quote from: Eclipse on January 26, 2009, 05:32:19 AM
I don't think patron is an option, only former, and frankly it wouldn't be a "will cease, or" situation,  the senior is gone the minute I find out about it, because they knew the rules going in, and this is a big one.

I agree with "former"; however I think I would give ONE warning to cut it off or quit - given that so many people can't seem to read 39-1, how many of them have committed 52-16 to memory?


Quote from: Eclipse on January 26, 2009, 05:32:19 AM
But what about the cadet?  That's not as clear-cut. I'd be inclined to dis-invite the cadet as well, or at least consider serious disciplinary action.

The regs apply to the Cadet as well.

Quote from: Eclipse on January 26, 2009, 05:32:19 AM
Does CAP consider a "cadet" unable to "legally" (CAP-wise) consent to dating a senior?  I say they are both responsible, especially if the cadet is over 18. 

The issue is the "inherent supervisory authority" of a SM over a Cadet.