CAP Talk

General Discussion => The Lobby => Topic started by: Pumbaa on January 25, 2009, 12:39:17 PM

Title: Cadets Dating
Post by: Pumbaa on January 25, 2009, 12:39:17 PM
Can anyone give me a clear reg/ rule on cadets dating?

I know it is forbidden if one cadet becomes a senior member.  But what about a 17 and a 16 y/o?

I've searched the forums and have not seen a clear direction given.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: JoeTomasone on January 25, 2009, 01:14:37 PM
Search the regs instead. 

52-16, 1-4(h)(1-2), page 9:

Quote(1) Decorum. Cadets will conduct themselves in a professional and appropriate manner at all times while in uniform and at CAP meetings or activities. Cadets will not engage in inappropriate touching or public displays of affection by kissing, hugging or holding hands (or similar conduct) while in uniform.

(2) Fraternization. The Air Force has always prohibited unduly familiar personal relationships between leaders and followers to avoid favoritism, preferential treatment, or other actions that undermine order, discipline, and unit morale. Similarly, it is important for CAP members to avoid unduly familiar relationships with other members, while recognizing that proper social interactions and appropriate personal relationships are necessary to unit morale, esprit de corps and effective mentoring. It is not inherently improper for cadets to have personal or romantic relationships with other cadets, however, relationships between cadets of substantially different ranks, or between cadets within the chain-of-command, are discouraged. Because seniors have intrinsic supervisory authority over cadets, senior members will not date or have an intimate romantic relationship with a cadet at any time, regardless of the circumstances.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: major pain on January 25, 2009, 02:12:23 PM
i have never seen a problem with cadets dating other than the drama of the break ups.... other than the already sited reg, there is really no guide lines... but let best judgment be the guide and let them be who they are. just don't let them make out at your next field exercise!
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Always Ready on January 25, 2009, 02:46:34 PM
^ +1000 and make sure the Senior Members present are held to the same standard.

Make sure they keep things professional and if you see any problems arise during CAP or that would affect their mutual contribution to CAP, don't be afraid to talk with both parties about it. Remind them to keep it professional. If it consistently becomes a problem, counsel them and don't be afraid get parents involved. I've even heard some Squadron Commanders holding up promotions because certain members weren't keeping it professional. *But* if they are keeping it professional and aren't breaking any regs, don't get involved. Handle it the same way, if not better than, you would handle two Senior Members dating.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: flyguy06 on January 25, 2009, 04:07:04 PM
This reminds me of an incident I saw last summer when I went to NESA last summer. It was the day we were leaving and I saw two cadets holding each other outside of the barracks. I guess they were saying goodbye. i was walking to the dining facility. when I came back some 30 minutes later they werestill hugging wih foreheads touching and I thought that was kind of inappropriate, but i didnt say anything.  I wanted to though
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: caprr275 on January 25, 2009, 04:10:19 PM
kids will be kids.... just keep it under control.... and yes I dated my fair share of female cadets when I was a cadet
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: flyguy06 on January 25, 2009, 04:13:38 PM
Yes, but Cadets arent kids. Kids arent professionally trained to search for missing aircraft. so cadets arent the "typical" kids and so they should held to a higher standard than the "average" kid. If they dont have thematurity to do the right thing, then they probably dont have the maturity to do the missions that Congress has charted us to do. SAR is not a play play thing. It is serious business. Peoples lives are at stake and we need people that have a serious mindset.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: D2SK on January 25, 2009, 04:21:49 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on January 25, 2009, 04:13:38 PM
Yes, but Cadets arent kids. Kids arent professionally trained to search for missing aircraft. so cadets arent the "typical" kids and so they should held to a higher standard than the "average" kid. If they dont have thematurity to do the right thing, then they probably dont have the maturity to do the missions that Congress has charted us to do. SAR is not a play play thing. It is serious business. Peoples lives are at stake and we need people that have a serious mindset.

Give me a break.  Please.  Your argument doesn't make sense.  Cadets dating cadets has nothing to do with SAR.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Eclipse on January 25, 2009, 04:25:23 PM
Anyone dating anyone in CAP is a bad idea, akin to dating someone where you work.

CAP is not a dating service, and Commanders should actively stress that point in any circumstance its appropriate.

Despite the handful of people here that will say they found their spouse in CAP, the experiences I have had with members dating have universally resulted in everything from hurt feelings and divisive situations in the local unit, to criminal charges after the fact.

Just don't do it.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: flyguy06 on January 25, 2009, 04:47:22 PM
Quote from: D2SK on January 25, 2009, 04:21:49 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on January 25, 2009, 04:13:38 PM
Yes, but Cadets arent kids. Kids arent professionally trained to search for missing aircraft. so cadets arent the "typical" kids and so they should held to a higher standard than the "average" kid. If they dont have thematurity to do the right thing, then they probably dont have the maturity to do the missions that Congress has charted us to do. SAR is not a play play thing. It is serious business. Peoples lives are at stake and we need people that have a serious mindset.

Give me a break.  Please.  Your argument doesn't make sense.  Cadets dating cadets has nothing to do with SAR.


My argument isnt about cadets dating cadets. I was refering to the incidnt that I saw of PDA andhow I think it is inappropriate for professionals. then some one said kids will kids. that is what I was disputing. I dontcare if cadets date. that wasnt my point.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: JoeTomasone on January 25, 2009, 05:03:03 PM
Quote from: D2SK on January 25, 2009, 04:21:49 PM
Give me a break.  Please.  Your argument doesn't make sense.  Cadets dating cadets has nothing to do with SAR.

Indirectly, it has to do with anything that we are expected to approach as professionals.   Cadets can date and do whatever when they are out of uniform and not on "CAP time".   But when you are in uniform and at a CAP event/meeting/mission, it's time to be professional and get your game face on.   Adhering to that requirement of the regs as well as the other "little things" makes you less likely to forget the "little things" in other aspects of CAP such as flying, SAR, etc.    Ask a pilot if the "little things" matter.



Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Stonewall on January 25, 2009, 05:16:45 PM
As a cadet I dated another cadet.  Luckily we both graduated high school and went our separate ways after we were no longer active in CAP as cadets.  If not, I'm sure it would have been an awkward situation for the two of us, among others.

I think dating in CAP, JROTC, the active military, in the civilian sector at work, and all around, is natural.  I have been associated with the military for 16 years and have yet to meet a married female soldier/airman/marine that was married to someone outside the military.  Meaning, every military female I've met who is married is married to another military member.  Always the case?  I'm sure it isn't, but that is my experience.

Where do couples meet?  High school, college, volunteer programs, work, online, through mutual friends and bars.  It is human nature for people to begin a courtship with someone who is interested in the same things.  Just like in the corporate world, the military (CAP included) has some boundaries and guidelines.  It varies between organizations, but for the most part, keep your private life out of the workplace.  You can't ignore it, but you can control it.

In a perfect world we would leave our hormones at home; check'em at the door.  I've dated fellow senior members (women, of course), fellow military members, coworkers and students.  I was "single" (not married) for a long long time.  Where did I meet people?  CAP, military, school, civilian job and out while I was socializing.

Note:  I am in the Air National Guard.  In my squadron there are about 8 females.  All of the married women are married to other military members.  The two that arne't married are dating other military members.  And this is the Guard, where people have lives outside of the military.  If you can't control it in the military, don't think you can put a stop to it in CAP.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Major Carrales on January 25, 2009, 09:58:03 PM
I would not encourage dating among, but when we cannot regulate cadets 24/7...as in when they are not on CAP time...they are subject to 1) privacy issues, 2) the fact that we cannot be around in an omnipotent capacity.

I don't condone it because it can lead to ackward issues when the romance ends.  Also, the drama is rarely limited to the two in question...as in other cadets have a tendency to take sides cuasing squadron disunity.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Flying Pig on January 25, 2009, 11:08:33 PM
Forget the cadets....whats even better is after the break up, the parents start getting involved because they think the male Cadet Commander is now picking on the female Cadet Deputy Commander (or whatever).  Suddenly your meeting looks like two coaches after a little league baseball game.   Seen it! Just try to keep it low key and if cadets are acting in appropriate at a meeting, deal with it quickly even if it means discipline.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Ned on January 26, 2009, 01:24:40 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on January 25, 2009, 09:58:03 PM
[. . .] but when we cannot regulate cadets 24/7...as in when they are not on CAP time...they are subject to 1) privacy issues, 2) the fact that we cannot be around in an omnipotent capacity.

We've talked about this before, and I don't think we are too far apart.

But I think it goes too far to say "we cannot regulate cadets 24/7 . . . as in when they are not on CAP time."


Leaving aside for a moment the notion that the whole point of the cadet program is to affect the cadets when that "are not on CAP time," we can and do routinely regulate what CAP members do on their own time.

We tell cadets that they have to have satisfactory grades - something that clearly occurs on their own time.  We tell members that they cannot commit felonies or use illegal drugs regardless of their duty status at the time.

And there are very real CAP consequences for these actions -- even if they occur "off duty".

Again, I suspect we agree on far more than we disagree in this area, but the idea that a CAP member can be a polygamous drug mule - as long as they don't do it during unit meetings - is probably incorrect.   ;)
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Eclipse on January 26, 2009, 01:35:56 AM
Quote from: Ned on January 26, 2009, 01:24:40 AM
Leaving aside for a moment the notion that the whole point of the cadet program is to affect the cadets when that "are not on CAP time," we can and do routinely regulate what CAP members do on their own time.

We tell cadets they can't date seniors, now.  Even if it both parties are over 18.

We expect a lot from our members even when they are not in uniform.  Another reason that CAP is more than a flying club or a local community get-together.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Major Carrales on January 26, 2009, 02:01:23 AM
Quote from: Ned on January 26, 2009, 01:24:40 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on January 25, 2009, 09:58:03 PM
[. . .] but when we cannot regulate cadets 24/7...as in when they are not on CAP time...they are subject to 1) privacy issues, 2) the fact that we cannot be around in an omnipotent capacity.

We've talked about this before, and I don't think we are too far apart.

But I think it goes too far to say "we cannot regulate cadets 24/7 . . . as in when they are not on CAP time."


Leaving aside for a moment the notion that the whole point of the cadet program is to affect the cadets when that "are not on CAP time," we can and do routinely regulate what CAP members do on their own time.

We tell cadets that they have to have satisfactory grades - something that clearly occurs on their own time.  We tell members that they cannot commit felonies or use illegal drugs regardless of their duty status at the time.

And there are very real CAP consequences for these actions -- even if they occur "off duty".

Again, I suspect we agree on far more than we disagree in this area, but the idea that a CAP member can be a polygamous drug mule - as long as they don't do it during unit meetings - is probably incorrect.   ;)

I concur, I think we greatly agree on the basics of this matter. 

Take this senario, for example.  Imagine that two young adults meet in CAP, while they are at the meetings and other events they obey the established policies.  However, over the summer, the two become very close outside of CAP...through unrelated activities like church or camp.  They strike up a relationship...do you hold the Squadron Commander/Unit responsible for the situation should it go somehow wrong?

In reality a unit commader can do nothing more than recommend against the action.  Much in the same way a parent recommends, be they issued as commands, to refrain from sexual activity.  The true battle is built in the relationship prior to the incident and the character of the cadets in question.

Thus, since a unit is not BIG BROTHER, ultimately the rules can only be enforced actively when on a CAP activity.

Good God...the potential can exist for a Romeo and Juliet situation in CAP.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Ned on January 26, 2009, 05:13:36 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on January 26, 2009, 02:01:23 AM
Take this senario, for example.  Imagine that two young adults meet in CAP, while they are at the meetings and other events they obey the established policies.  However, over the summer, the two become very close outside of CAP...through unrelated activities like church or camp.  They strike up a relationship...do you hold the Squadron Commander/Unit responsible for the situation should it go somehow wrong?

I'm not sure if you left out the membership catagories of the lovers to make a point, but if Romeo and Juliet are both cadets or both seniors, then I agree that the commander's job is discourage the relationship if they are in the chain of command or of substantially different grades.

However, if only one of the members is a cadet, then the commander's job is clear.  The relationship will cease, or the senior will need to be a former or patron member.

Quote
Thus, since a unit is not BIG BROTHER, ultimately the rules can only be enforced actively when on a CAP activity.

I think the regulation wisely recognizes that people are people (especially cadets).  The only "bright line rule" is that seniors never, ever date cadets period.

On or off duty.  Not between meetings or out of state.

Not in box.  Not with a fox.  Seniors may not date them here or there - seniors may not date cadets anywhere.   (Oh, wait. That's another story.  8))
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Eclipse on January 26, 2009, 05:32:19 AM
Quote from: Ned on January 26, 2009, 05:13:36 AM
However, if only one of the members is a cadet, then the commander's job is clear.  The relationship will cease, or the senior will need to be a former or patron member.

I don't think patron is an option, only former, and frankly it wouldn't be a "will cease, or" situation,  the senior is gone the minute I find out about it, because they knew the rules going in, and this is a big one.

But what about the cadet?  That's not as clear-cut. I'd be inclined to dis-invite the cadet as well, or at least consider serious disciplinary action.

Does CAP consider a "cadet" unable to "legally" (CAP-wise) consent to dating a senior?  I say they are both responsible, especially if the cadet is over 18. 
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: JoeTomasone on January 26, 2009, 12:20:30 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 26, 2009, 05:32:19 AM
I don't think patron is an option, only former, and frankly it wouldn't be a "will cease, or" situation,  the senior is gone the minute I find out about it, because they knew the rules going in, and this is a big one.

I agree with "former"; however I think I would give ONE warning to cut it off or quit - given that so many people can't seem to read 39-1, how many of them have committed 52-16 to memory?


Quote from: Eclipse on January 26, 2009, 05:32:19 AM
But what about the cadet?  That's not as clear-cut. I'd be inclined to dis-invite the cadet as well, or at least consider serious disciplinary action.

The regs apply to the Cadet as well.

Quote from: Eclipse on January 26, 2009, 05:32:19 AM
Does CAP consider a "cadet" unable to "legally" (CAP-wise) consent to dating a senior?  I say they are both responsible, especially if the cadet is over 18. 

The issue is the "inherent supervisory authority" of a SM over a Cadet.   

Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: hatentx on January 26, 2009, 12:28:18 PM
let them date they are kids.... wait some people dont think they are kids.... they are adolescents and are going to be interested in romantic relationships and they are going to be interested in people they know.  It is funny how it is alot like how adults work to huh.  Let them date but ensure they understand the rules and regulations along with the professional attitude that must come along with the change of a break up.  I would handle a SM relationship the same way.  While husband and wife is different in the fact that they are together a romantic encounter between SM in the same squadron would need to be kept professional. 

:angel: :angel: :angel: :angel:oh by the way any single ladies looking??? :angel: :angel: :angel: :angel:
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Strick on January 26, 2009, 02:21:36 PM
CAP dating?        I use to only date CAP girls then I discovered the Club scene ;D
No PDA in uniform and what people do outside of CAP is their business
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: lordmonar on January 26, 2009, 03:27:41 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 26, 2009, 05:32:19 AMDoes CAP consider a "cadet" unable to "legally" (CAP-wise) consent to dating a senior?  I say they are both responsible, especially if the cadet is over 18. 

This then breaks down the whole idea of the hard line between Senior/Cadet dating.  If they are "responsible" to make their own decisions then there is no need to protect them.

One of the reasons why I thought the hard line "no seniors dating cadets" was not the best way of going about it.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: DG on January 26, 2009, 04:47:49 PM
Quote from: Ned on January 26, 2009, 05:13:36 AM
Quote from: Major Carrales on January 26, 2009, 02:01:23 AMI'm not sure if you left out the membership catagories of the lovers to make a point, but if Romeo and Juliet are both cadets or both seniors, then I agree that the commander's job is discourage the relationship if they are in the chain of command or of substantially different grades.

However, if only one of the members is a cadet, then the commander's job is clear.  The relationship will cease, or the senior will need to be a former or patron member.


Thus, since a unit is not BIG BROTHER, ultimately the rules can only be enforced actively when on a CAP activity.

I think the regulation wisely recognizes that people are people (especially cadets).  The only "bright line rule" is that seniors never, ever date cadets period.

On or off duty.  Not between meetings or out of state.

Not in box.  Not with a fox.  Seniors may not date them here or there - seniors may not date cadets anywhere. 






Where do you see this in the Regulations?
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Always Ready on January 26, 2009, 04:53:07 PM
Quote from: lordmonar on January 26, 2009, 03:27:41 PM
This then breaks down the whole idea of the hard line between Senior/Cadet dating.  If they are "responsible" to make their own decisions then there is no need to protect them.

One of the reasons why I thought the hard line "no seniors dating cadets" was not the best way of going about it.
^+1

I wonder if the courts would deem it discriminatory if a Senior member and Cadet (who is older than the SM) are dating and the Senior member becomes the only one held accountable. I can see the story on CNN..."19 year old and 18 can't date...this coming from the same organization that ousted their first minority National Commander. CAP is a Congressionally chartered organization that is the official auxiliary of the Air Force." That would go over well with the public. First they are going to think we are racist. Then they are going to think we have stupid rules. After that, they are going to want the AF and Congress to cut us off and possibly bring back HWSNBN since he was "discriminated against" over a "stupid rule".

While I agree that Cadets and Senior Members shouldn't date in most cases. I don't think our grade system sets us up for success. If they want the hard line rule, make all us members in the 18-20 year old range either all Cadet or all Senior Member, not both. That way the situation is black and white. Instead of black, white, and gray.

We also need to add a rule so that both dating between Cadets and dating between Senior Members is "ok" if both parties keep it professional. If they don't, their memberships should be suspended until the situation is resolved. That would cut out a LOT of drama on both sides of the aisle.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Stonewall on January 26, 2009, 04:53:41 PM
If that rule does exist, officially, wouldn't it be funny to say that an 18 year old senior member couldn't date a 20 year old cadet.

Crusty Squadron Commander:  "YOU CAN'T DATE TFO JONES BECAUSE HE'S A SENIOR MEMBER AND YOU'RE A CADET!".

20 year old Eaker cadet:  "But I'm 2 years older than he is!"
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: jimmydeanno on January 26, 2009, 04:56:00 PM
FOR DG...

Quote from: 52-16, 1-4(h)(2), page 9
(2) Fraternization. ... Because seniors have intrinsic supervisory authority over cadets, senior members will not date or have an intimate romantic relationship with a cadet at any time, regardless of the circumstances.

Also note that it has nothing to do with age factor - it states it is because of "intrinsic supervisory authority."
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: lordmonar on January 26, 2009, 06:08:41 PM
And that ties back into just about any discussion we have had about cadets driving COV's and being PICs.

I can live with the rule......but it only points out a lot of gray areas that do not make a whole lot of sense.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: O-Rex on January 26, 2009, 06:14:38 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 25, 2009, 04:25:23 PM
Anyone dating anyone in CAP is a bad idea, akin to dating someone where you work.

Hormones versus CAP.  I think we'd lose. . . .

It's part of the cadet experience:  let them learn it here, before it gets them in real hot-water elsewhere later on.

Upside, I know of a few cadet romances that blossomed into stable marriages when they grew up.  :angel:
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Stonewall on January 26, 2009, 06:18:46 PM
Quote from: O-Rex on January 26, 2009, 06:14:38 PMUpside, I know of a few cadet romances that blossomed into stable marriages when they grew up.  :angel:

Downside, the "love triangle" of the former CAP cadet (Spaatzen even) who ended up killing his ex-girlfriend, etc.  You know, the USNA/USAFA thing from the mid or late 90s?  Yeah, not a good example of how cadet relationships can pan out... :o
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: davidsinn on January 26, 2009, 06:51:57 PM
Quote from: Stonewall on January 26, 2009, 06:18:46 PM
Quote from: O-Rex on January 26, 2009, 06:14:38 PMUpside, I know of a few cadet romances that blossomed into stable marriages when they grew up.  :angel:

Downside, the "love triangle" of the former CAP cadet (Spaatzen even) who ended up killing his ex-girlfriend, etc.  You know, the USNA/USAFA thing from the mid or late 90s?  Yeah, not a good example of how cadet relationships can pan out... :o

You get nutcases all over so that's not a real good reason to ban cadets from dating.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: SM-MADDOG on January 26, 2009, 07:09:49 PM
I agree. While either cadets dating cadets or seiors dating senors is fine by Me, as long as it is done outside of CAP and they dont bring any problems to the squadron. Also Why ban cadets from dating because of a bad incident. I mean if thats the case than no one can date or get married. Have You ever looked at the domestic violence crime rate? Look at how many people get divorced a year.

I dont like banning things that shouldnt be. I like this country and dont want to see if turn into "one" of them countries. Plus the last time i checked its not illegal for teens to date or adults.

Quote from: davidsinn on January 26, 2009, 06:51:57 PM
Quote from: Stonewall on January 26, 2009, 06:18:46 PM
Quote from: O-Rex on January 26, 2009, 06:14:38 PMUpside, I know of a few cadet romances that blossomed into stable marriages when they grew up.  :angel:

Downside, the "love triangle" of the former CAP cadet (Spaatzen even) who ended up killing his ex-girlfriend, etc.  You know, the USNA/USAFA thing from the mid or late 90s?  Yeah, not a good example of how cadet relationships can pan out... :o

You get nutcases all over so that's not a real good reason to ban cadets from dating.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Ned on January 26, 2009, 07:38:28 PM
Just a brief recap -- the regulation does not prohibit cadets from dating cadets; it only discourages relationships when there is a substantial difference in grade or if the cadets are in the chain of command.

Otherwise, they are free to date or not.

There is indeed a bright line prohibition against seniors dating cadets, regardless of the ages of the individuals involved.

And yes, for every "Romeo and Juliet" situation where a 20 year-old cadet and a similarly aged senior are dating, I can show you some horrendous cases of 30 year old squadron commanders "dating" 15 year old cadets.

We wrote the regulation to make it easy to determine what is OK and what is not.  You could certainly write a regulation that says something like "seniors cannot date cadets more than three years younger, and only if they are not in the same unit or chain of command."  It's not unreasonable on it's face, but winds up being a huge pain in the tail to administer.

I've had to do my fair share of investigations of such "relationships"- I cannot tell you how distasteful it is to have to ask the cadet, her/his parents, and the senior involved questions about such an intimate topic.

Remember, we are not the only youth organization that prohibits relationships between the adult leaders and the students.  Actually, we were among the last to adopt such a rule.  High school teachers cannot date their 18 year old students, nor can college professors.  Scout leaders cannot date scouts, Venturing Crew leaders cannot date even the adult scouts.

The bright line rule protects our cadets against improper and unwanted relationships suggested by senior members who always outrank the cadet.

If they are really in Love, then they know that true love abides.  They can wait until the cadet turns senior (or the senior becomes a former member.)

We should focus on protecting our troops, not serving them up to avaricious seniors.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: JoeTomasone on January 26, 2009, 08:38:08 PM
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: caprr275 on January 26, 2009, 10:50:22 PM
Stonewall... that has happened I know of a few cadets/seniors that were in that exact situation where the 20 year old C/Lt Col got his 19 year old GF to join CAP as a flight officer and then they were told after she joined that she had to quit or he had to go senior because they were dating.

Another example of how this rule is not the way it should be is if a 20 year old cadet col is dating another 20 year old cadet col one turns 21 first the other a few months later. Are you going to tell them they have to break up after dating for years or are you going to tell the spaatz cadet that they have to turn senior member or their significant other will be kicked out.

Its not a prefect rule but it is there to protect cadets. I think it needs a few small changes but then again you can never make a rule to fit every situation.

Ned... In Michigan it is LEGAL for teachers to date students as long as they are 18 and a teacher can date a 16 year old student if the student is emancipated
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: O-Rex on January 26, 2009, 10:59:12 PM
This stuff happens in the military too.

Usually if both are enlisted and one gets commissioned the couple is grandfathered, but if boy meets girl, they're both mil, and there's a "gold-bar" that separates the two, one of them has to either get out or the officer resigns his or her commission.

CAP Senior/Cadet relationships, one word: DON'T.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: RogueLeader on January 26, 2009, 11:13:59 PM
Quote from: caprr275 on January 26, 2009, 10:50:22 PMAnother example of how this rule is not the way it should be is if a 20 year old cadet col is dating another 20 year old cadet col one turns 21 first the other a few months later. Are you going to tell them they have to break up after dating for years or are you going to tell the spaatz cadet that they have to turn senior member or their significant other will be kicked out.

The answer is YES.  There is NO other alternative at this time and place.  I agree that it stinks to high heaven, but that is the way it is.  I'm sure that the two C/Cols' understand the regs and will abide by them.  If they can't, they shouldn't be C/Col
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Ned on January 26, 2009, 11:22:10 PM
Quote from: caprr275 on January 26, 2009, 10:50:22 PM
[T]he 20 year old C/Lt Col got his 19 year old GF to join CAP as a flight officer and then they were told after she joined that she had to quit or he had to go senior because they were dating.

How odd.  Why on earth would any cadet convince his girlfriend join as a senior member under the current rules?

I'm sure it must have been because the 19 year old GF had talents and time to give to the organization.  Which we certainly could use.

I sure can't think of any other reason . . . . . ::)

QuoteAnother example of how this rule is not the way it should be is if a 20 year old cadet col is dating another 20 year old cadet col one turns 21 first the other a few months later. Are you going to tell them they have to break up after dating for years or are you going to tell the spaatz cadet that they have to turn senior member or their significant other will be kicked out.

In all honesty, this doesn't seem like a real problem.  If they are so in love that they cannot bear to be apart, then the 21 year old prospective senior could simply delay transitioning to senior member status for several months until the slightly younger cadet caught up.  It doesn't cost anything (since the "cadet-to-senior" transition is free).  Besides, no self-respecting Spaatz cadet really wants to be a senior in the first place.

Remember, "true love abides."  (At least for a couple of months.  ;D)

Quote
Ned... In Michigan it is LEGAL for teachers to date students as long as they are 18 and a teacher can date a 16 year old student if the student is emancipated

But we aren't talking "legal vs illegal."  We are talking about rules and regulations.  I'll wager an adult beverage of your choice that every public high school in Michigan has a rule that disallows such dating.  If for no other reason than most accrediting agencies require such a rule in every school.

It's not "illegal" for an attorney to have sex with his/her client in California.  But it is a violation of the ethical rules and could result in disbarment.


Just as it is not illegal for a Scouting executive to date a 18 year old explorer.  But it would quickly result in a career change for the executive.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Eclipse on January 26, 2009, 11:26:17 PM
Quote from: caprr275 on January 26, 2009, 10:50:22 PM
Another example of how this rule is not the way it should be is if a 20 year old cadet col is dating another 20 year old cadet col one turns 21 first the other a few months later. Are you going to tell them they have to break up after dating for years or are you going to tell the spaatz cadet that they have to turn senior member or their significant other will be kicked out.

Yes.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Hawk200 on January 26, 2009, 11:53:15 PM
Quote from: caprr275 on January 26, 2009, 10:50:22 PMAnother example of how this rule is not the way it should be is if a 20 year old cadet col is dating another 20 year old cadet col one turns 21 first the other a few months later. Are you going to tell them they have to break up after dating for years or are you going to tell the spaatz cadet that they have to turn senior member or their significant other will be kicked out.

I'd say yes, too.

But there are other choices as well. One could get out (stinks). The younger could go senior as well (doesn't stink as bad). If the two are absolutely stuck on being CAP together to the point that nothing else matters, option two really isn't all that bad. With both as a senior, no rule is being violated, and it would show others that the rule is taken seriously.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: PaulR on January 27, 2009, 01:11:37 AM
I do not see a problem with Cadets dating outside of the auspices of the CAP.  There is nothing wrong with it.  Heck, it is even allowed, under certain situations, within the regular military. 

As stated, if there is no PDA in uniform it is a non issue. 

However... Senior members dating Cadets (regardless of the age ) is inappropriate and should not be allowed.  It is like a student having romantic relations with a student.  Even if both are adults, it is not allowed, for obvious reasons. 
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: RogueLeader on January 27, 2009, 01:22:28 AM
???
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: DC on January 27, 2009, 01:29:08 AM
Quote from: PaulR on January 27, 2009, 01:11:37 AM
I do not see a problem with Cadets dating outside of the auspices of the CAP.  There is nothing wrong with it.  Heck, it is even allowed, under certain situations, within the regular military. 

As stated, if there is no PDA in uniform it is a non issue. 

However... Senior members dating Cadets (regardless of the age ) is inappropriate and should not be allowed.  It is like a teacher having romantic relations with a student.  Even if both are adults, it is not allowed, for obvious reasons. 
See bold, I think that is what he meant...
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: RogueLeader on January 27, 2009, 01:47:46 AM
That does change the meaning doesn't it.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: DG on January 27, 2009, 02:30:08 AM
THANK YOU, JIMMYDEANNO!!!
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: RiverAux on January 27, 2009, 04:19:48 AM
Lets say you are squadron commander and discover that a cadet in your unit over the age of majority in your state is dating a cadet under the age of majority and that there is supposedly a sexual relationship between the two?  In other words, you learn that you may have a case of statutory rape between two of your cadets. 

Seems to me that while this wouldn't violate CAP regulations, it would be your duty to report it to law enforcement for investigation.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: smj58501 on January 27, 2009, 04:26:37 AM
Quote from: davidsinn on January 26, 2009, 06:51:57 PM
Quote from: Stonewall on January 26, 2009, 06:18:46 PM
Quote from: O-Rex on January 26, 2009, 06:14:38 PMUpside, I know of a few cadet romances that blossomed into stable marriages when they grew up.  :angel:

Downside, the "love triangle" of the former CAP cadet (Spaatzen even) who ended up killing his ex-girlfriend, etc.  You know, the USNA/USAFA thing from the mid or late 90s?  Yeah, not a good example of how cadet relationships can pan out... :o

You get nutcases all over so that's not a real good reason to ban cadets from dating.

Yes, and Lee Harvey Oswald learned how to shoot in the Marine Corps too
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Stonewall on January 27, 2009, 04:29:22 AM
Quote from: smj58501 on January 27, 2009, 04:26:37 AM
Quote from: davidsinn on January 26, 2009, 06:51:57 PM
Quote from: Stonewall on January 26, 2009, 06:18:46 PM
Quote from: O-Rex on January 26, 2009, 06:14:38 PMUpside, I know of a few cadet romances that blossomed into stable marriages when they grew up.  :angel:

Downside, the "love triangle" of the former CAP cadet (Spaatzen even) who ended up killing his ex-girlfriend, etc.  You know, the USNA/USAFA thing from the mid or late 90s?  Yeah, not a good example of how cadet relationships can pan out... :o

You get nutcases all over so that's not a real good reason to ban cadets from dating.

Yes, and Lee Harvey Oswald learned how to shoot in the Marine Corps too

I hope no one was thinking that I was strictly against cadet relationships.  I was merely using what I posted as a means to demonstrate there are positive and negative outcomes, regardless of what policies are in place.

As I said in my initial post, you can't make rules against human nature and expect people to follow them.  Dating in any seeting, be it school, CAP, work place, military, is inevitable.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Sleepwalker on January 27, 2009, 01:19:13 PM
  It seems to me that CAPR 52-16 is quite clear about many of these issues being discussed here:

" It is not inherently improper for cadets to have personal or romantic relationships with other cadets, however, relationships between cadets of substantially different ranks, or between cadets within the chain-of-command, are discouraged. Because seniors have intrinsic supervisory authority over cadets, senior members will not date or have an intimate romantic relationship with a cadet at any time, regardless of the circumstances. "
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: flyguy06 on January 27, 2009, 02:58:40 PM
Quote from: PaulR on January 27, 2009, 01:11:37 AM
I do not see a problem with Cadets dating outside of the auspices of the CAP.  There is nothing wrong with it.  Heck, it is even allowed, under certain situations, within the regular military. 

As stated, if there is no PDA in uniform it is a non issue. 

However... Senior members dating Cadets (regardless of the age ) is inappropriate and should not be allowed.  It is like a student having romantic relations with a student.  Even if both are adults, it is not allowed, for obvious reasons. 

So, you would have a problem with a 20 year old senior member dating a 20 year old cadet? What if they went to college together and dated on campus?
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Eclipse on January 27, 2009, 03:52:47 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on January 27, 2009, 02:58:40 PM
So, you would have a problem with a 20 year old senior member dating a 20 year old cadet? What if they went to college together and dated on campus?

Yes.

Its clearly and explicitly prohibited by regulation.  No gray area, no room for interpenetration, no place to look the other way.

Period.

Is it any wonder we have issues of insubordination, lack of discipline, and general "You can't tell me what to do." in CAP when a reg that is this clear still leaves members believing it can be interperated , fudged, or wholly ignored? 

You read it, heed, and adhere, or ignore at your own peril.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: lordmonar on January 27, 2009, 04:00:31 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 27, 2009, 03:52:47 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on January 27, 2009, 02:58:40 PM
So, you would have a problem with a 20 year old senior member dating a 20 year old cadet? What if they went to college together and dated on campus?

Yes.

Its clearly and explicitly prohibited by regulation.  No gray area, no room for interpenetration, no place to look the other way.

Period.

Is it any wonder we have issues of insubordination, lack of discipline, and general "You can't tell me what to do." in CAP when a reg that is this clear still leaves members believing it can be interperated , fudged, or wholly ignored? 

You read it, heed, and adhere, or ignore at your own peril.
Even if said regulation is stupid.   ;D
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Eclipse on January 27, 2009, 04:03:07 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on January 27, 2009, 04:19:48 AM
Lets say you are squadron commander and discover that a cadet in your unit over the age of majority in your state is dating a cadet under the age of majority and that there is supposedly a sexual relationship between the two?  In other words, you learn that you may have a case of statutory rape between two of your cadets. 

Seems to me that while this wouldn't violate CAP regulations, it would be your duty to report it to law enforcement for investigation.

In this case the relationship violates the law, and there are clear CAP guidelines regarding internal, and sometimes external, "duty to report" sexual abuse, which is what this would be defined as legally.

Quote from: CAPR 52-10, Page 1, Section 1a 
a. Sexual Abuse. Sexual abuse is defined as sexual molestation, touching, contact, exposure, suggestions, or other incidents of a sexually oriented nature. The unit commander will immediately notify the wing commander who will immediately notify the wing legal officer, and the General Counsel (at 877-227-9142, ext 234) during business hours or the National Operations Center (NOC) at 888-211-1812, ext 300 after hours, weekends, and holidays) or the Executive Director (at 877-227-9142, ext 222). No investigation will be conducted nor statements taken until specifically directed by the General Counsel. The General Counsel will notify the region commander, National Commander, other appropriate offcials, and state agencies as required.

In states where reporting by "anyone" is required, or the Unit CC's external occupation (i.e. LEO, teacher, MD, etc.) requires reporting, reporting to the Wing CC does not replace reporting to the required outside agencies as appropriate.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: davidsinn on January 27, 2009, 04:46:25 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on January 27, 2009, 02:58:40 PM
So, you would have a problem with a 20 year old senior member dating a 20 year old cadet? What if they went to college together and dated on campus?

Personally: No I do not. Professionally as an Officer in CAP: Absolutely I have a problem with it because we have a reg that is crystal clear. Perhaps one of the few regs we have that has zero ambiguity. I'll enforce it even though I think it is stupid and I'll try to change it but until it is changed that's the rule.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Ned on January 27, 2009, 04:49:46 PM
Quote from: davidsinn on January 27, 2009, 04:46:25 PM
. . ..  [W]e have a reg that is crystal clear. Perhaps one of the few regs we have that has zero ambiguity. .

I did think it was particularly well-written.   8)
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: smj58501 on January 28, 2009, 12:55:28 AM
Quote from: davidsinn on January 27, 2009, 04:46:25 PM
Quote from: flyguy06 on January 27, 2009, 02:58:40 PM
So, you would have a problem with a 20 year old senior member dating a 20 year old cadet? What if they went to college together and dated on campus?

Personally: No I do not. Professionally as an Officer in CAP: Absolutely I have a problem with it because we have a reg that is crystal clear. Perhaps one of the few regs we have that has zero ambiguity. I'll enforce it even though I think it is stupid and I'll try to change it but until it is changed that's the rule.

And pragmatically, if the above situation were in play (and they REALLY liked each other), then the cadet should become a Senior Member.

If they are not willing to make this accomodation in their CAP status to facilitate their personal relationship, then obviously CAP is more important to them as individuals than their relationship with each other. If CAP is more important, then they need to stop seeing each other for the good of the organization they feel is so important.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: lordmonar on January 28, 2009, 01:51:24 AM
Pragmatically.....I would look at each situaiton and deal with it as it deserved.

If the relationship did not violate any laws.....and the particpants mature and low key.....and it did not cause any problems with my squadron (or anyone else's)....I would turn a blind eye to it.

does this make me a bad leader?

I don't think so.  The rule is there if I need to use it.  I would most certainly have a talk with the individuals involved.  But because of the gray areas and the bright line involved with our program I look to the a) Safety and surcuity of my cadets and senior members and b) accomplishing the mission.

Beyond that I just don't have time to play Dating Police.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: PORed on January 28, 2009, 04:01:46 PM
I would just like to throw it out there that not all cadets dating is a bad thing, they are teenagers they will want to date each other. My wife and I met as cadets, dated successfully and got married, so its not all bad  ;). As long as the cadets do it properly in the sense of no PDA, or favoritism if one is in a command role and the other isn't I think it is a good thing. 
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Johnny Yuma on January 29, 2009, 05:21:25 AM
It amazes me how many folks still believe that the CPPT was written to protect cadets. It doesn't surprise me that some folks on here are still trying to continue this lie myth.

CPPT was written for only one reason: To protect NHQ, Inc.'s financial interests and those of its officers, that being the National Board and NEC. If it were honestly in the best interests of the cadet then NHQ would never have discouraged members suspecting abuse from going direct to the civil authorities. Up until very recently anyone reporting cadet abuse was to report it to a corporate officer, shut up and let NHQ, INC and hopeassume NHQ, Inc. would report it. Anyone who doesn't believe that NHQ was doing damage control first and cadet welfare second probably still believes in the Tooth Fairy.

Its only recently that the policy's changed and technically it only changed for those required to report abuse by law, like cops, teachers, etc. and only after those Bozos at Starrswon made it an issue.

Now I know Ned is one of those who helped write CPPT, but IIRC he's a lawyer whose primary interest is protecting his client at the expense of everything but the law and professional ethics. He can talk all day long about 30 year old abusing 15 year olds, but it's a red herring.

An 18 year old is a legal adult in the eyes of the law, cadet or not. Sorry Ned, but anyone who attempts to make the argument that prohibiting a cadet/senior relationship between consenting legal adults prevents pedophiles from abusing underaged cadets is beyond ridiculous. 

Frankly, IMHO NHQ's interest in its legal adult member's sexual and romantic relationships not only out of line but very creepy.   
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: hatentx on January 29, 2009, 05:29:38 AM
Quote from: PORed on January 28, 2009, 04:01:46 PM
I would just like to throw it out there that not all cadets dating is a bad thing, they are teenagers they will want to date each other. My wife and I met as cadets, dated successfully and got married, so its not all bad  ;). As long as the cadets do it properly in the sense of no PDA, or favoritism if one is in a command role and the other isn't I think it is a good thing. 


Good Luck with the no favoritism.  I have seen in Active duty where it a lower enlisted soldier is dating an NCO from a different company and the NCO still shows favoritism in areas he can.  While this is an adult in his 30's and they are unable to do it what are the odds that a Cadet is able to do it as well.  I am not saying it cant be done but it is difficult for someone with so much less life experiance to be able to master a difficult task such as this.

I was thinking and just wanting to throw this out there, what and about a SM dating a member of a cadets family?  What if I were to start dating a Cadet's mother.... wow that would be an age jump for me but still in theory it could happen, or more likely a cadets sister.  While this has just as much of a potential impact as any other kind of relationship in CAP what is thought of this?
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Ned on January 29, 2009, 05:53:40 AM
Quote from: Johnny Yuma on January 29, 2009, 05:21:25 AM
Now I know Ned is one of those who helped write CPPT, but IIRC he's a lawyer whose primary interest is protecting his client at the expense of everything but the law and professional ethics. He can talk all day long about 30 year old abusing 15 year olds, but it's a red herring.

Well, you can call me a liar on the internet or to my face, I guess.  But the whole point of the CPP is to protect cadets.  I freely admit that the happy side effect of protecting the cadets is protecting seniors and the corporation.  Maybe it's a "chicken and the egg" kind of thing.

But it does seem a little odd that you seem to know my motivations better than I do.

I should check my office for bugs.

Quote

An 18 year old is a legal adult in the eyes of the law, cadet or not. Sorry Ned, but anyone who attempts to make the argument that prohibiting a cadet/senior relationship between consenting legal adults prevents pedophiles from abusing underaged cadets is beyond ridiculous. 

Then how about I make the argument that prohibiting a cadet/senior relationship between consenting legal adults protects the cadet from abusive relationships by the senior who outranks the cadet and is supposed to be responsible for training and protecting the cadet.  And for some reason has decided to manipulate the relationship to their own personal benefit.


Just like 23 year old high school teachers are not supposed to have sex with their 18 year old students.  Sure, they are both legal adults, but the relationship is abusive essentially by definition.  There is a huge power imbalance between instructors and students, and an inherent conflict of interest in a teacher who is supposed mentor and teach students instead of bedding them.

(BTW, red herring or not, I can name at least three seniors sent to prison for "dating" cadets.  It happens more often than any of us want to think.)

Quote
Frankly, IMHO NHQ's interest in its legal adult member's sexual and romantic relationships not only out of line but very creepy.   


I suppose to be consistent, you will have to consider every other group that prohibits these kinds or relationships "creepy" as well.

That list includes the creepy Boy Scouts of America, the creepy United States Armed Forces, every creepy high school, and all those creepy colleges and universities out there.

We live in a pretty creepy world, all right.   ;)
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Eclipse on January 29, 2009, 02:38:28 PM
Quote from: Johnny Yuma on January 29, 2009, 05:21:25 AM
An 18 year old is a legal adult in the eyes of the law, cadet or not. Sorry Ned, but anyone who attempts to make the argument that prohibiting a cadet/senior relationship between consenting legal adults prevents pedophiles from abusing underaged cadets is beyond ridiculous. 

Frankly, IMHO NHQ's interest in its legal adult member's sexual and romantic relationships not only out of line but very creepy.   

You're not really tracking this whole "cadets aren't adults in the eyes of CAP" thing are you?

CAP has no legal authority to tell anyone to do anything, but if you want to stay a cadet, and maintain access to the various cadet-only opportunities, you follow the rules.

Same goes for seniors.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Johnny Yuma on January 29, 2009, 07:58:01 PM
Quote from: Ned on January 29, 2009, 05:53:40 AM
Quote from: Johnny Yuma on January 29, 2009, 05:21:25 AM
Now I know Ned is one of those who helped write CPPT, but IIRC he's a lawyer whose primary interest is protecting his client at the expense of everything but the law and professional ethics. He can talk all day long about 30 year old abusing 15 year olds, but it's a red herring.

Well, you can call me a liar on the internet or to my face, I guess.  But the whole point of the CPP is to protect cadets.  I freely admit that the happy side effect of protecting the cadets is protecting seniors and the corporation.  Maybe it's a "chicken and the egg" kind of thing.

But it does seem a little odd that you seem to know my motivations better than I do.

I should check my office for bugs.

Sorry Ned, but your job as Legal at the time was protecting the corporation and its officers first and foremost, period. You know that.

When CPP went into effect 2 decades ago my Wing Queen at the time said it was an effort to stave off the troubles BSA was having with lawsuits from abused scouts from happening to CAP.

Besides, if cadet protection was the primary goal then members would NEVER have been discouraged from notifying civil authorities.

Quote
QuoteAn 18 year old is a legal adult in the eyes of the law, cadet or not. Sorry Ned, but anyone who attempts to make the argument that prohibiting a cadet/senior relationship between consenting legal adults prevents pedophiles from abusing underaged cadets is beyond ridiculous. 

Then how about I make the argument that prohibiting a cadet/senior relationship between consenting legal adults protects the cadet from abusive relationships by the senior who outranks the cadet and is supposed to be responsible for training and protecting the cadet.  And for some reason has decided to manipulate the relationship to their own personal benefit.


Just like 23 year old high school teachers are not supposed to have sex with their 18 year old students.  Sure, they are both legal adults, but the relationship is abusive essentially by definition.  There is a huge power imbalance between instructors and students, and an inherent conflict of interest in a teacher who is supposed mentor and teach students instead of bedding them.

(BTW, red herring or not, I can name at least three seniors sent to prison for "dating" cadets.  It happens more often than any of us want to think.)

They didn't go to prison dating 18 year olds, that's the difference.

Student/teacher relationships are not abusive but are more a form of sexual harrassment, which is already addressed by regulation: If the subordinate objects to the behavior of the superior then it's handled. I've said this before: Abuse issues involving cadets over 18 should be handled under these regulations.

Quote
Quote
Frankly, IMHO NHQ's interest in its legal adult member's sexual and romantic relationships not only out of line but very creepy. 

I suppose to be consistent, you will have to consider every other group that prohibits these kinds or relationships "creepy" as well.

That list includes the creepy Boy Scouts of America, the creepy United States Armed Forces, every creepy high school, and all those creepy colleges and universities out there.

You really, really, don't want to use the BSA's Explorer program as a good example. Been there, seen that, got the T-shirt and program to prove it.

There are countless numbers of couples in the armed forces where one spouse is an officer and the other is EM or in some other way a subordinate. All the DoD seems to have issue with is that they cannot serve in the same unit or in each other's Chain of Command.

There is one couple in CAP whose romantic relationship began while one was attending college and the other was an instructor. One half of this union just happens to be a current corporate officer and still teaches. There are also a number of states where the whole student/teacher relationship ban is being challenged, Washington state sticks in my mind. We'll see where this plays out.

QuoteWe live in a pretty creepy world, all right.   ;)

When you create zero tolerance policies that force folks with common sense into mindless automatons for CAP, Inc's. own interests, yes it is.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Eclipse on January 29, 2009, 08:07:05 PM
Quote from: Johnny Yuma on January 29, 2009, 07:58:01 PM
Besides, if cadet protection was the primary goal then members would NEVER have been discouraged from notifying civil authorities.

They never have been.  In fact the regs make it quite clear that reporting an incident internally does not absolve a member who is also required to report it externally.

Quote from: Johnny Yuma on January 29, 2009, 07:58:01 PM
There is one couple in CAP whose romantic relationship began while one was attending college and the other was an instructor. One half of this union just happens to be a current corporate officer and still teaches. There are also a number of states where the whole student/teacher relationship ban is being challenged, Washington state sticks in my mind. We'll see where this plays out.

There's a lot of stuff in this country which is flat out wrong, and currently illegal that is being challenged in the courts.
The very fundamental definition of marriage and familiy is being challenged in several states.  A legal challenge does not
mean that the idea was incorrect in the first place, and in a lot of cases its brought by bad actors who can't live up to societal norms.

Teachers dating students - wrong.

Cadets dating senior members - wrong.

Seniors dating seniors - fundamentally bad idea.

Cadets dating cadets - fundamentally bad idea.

If you try hard enough, and are so inclined, you can find anecdotal examples of every bad behavior and illegal act in the history of man "working out to the better of all involved", that doesn't mean that the behavior they participated in wasn't risky, illegal, or just down right wrong, it means that against the odds things worked out.

So using the random examples of a few married couples in CAP, or happy dating cadets, does not change the fact that its a bad idea, and in most case works out to the detriment of the actors, the unit, or CAP.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Nathan on January 29, 2009, 08:12:16 PM
Craziness...

First and foremost, cadets dating cadets on their own time is not an issue. Obviously if two people meet through an organization like CAP that serves exclusive sorts of interests, it's going to be inevitable that they are going to meet, nay, LOOK for someone to hook up with. I certainly had my CAP crushes in my time, although I was always too much of a coward when I was younger to do much about it. ;) So long as the relationship doesn't find its way INTO CAP, there really shouldn't be an issue. Just because two people meet in CAP doesn't mean that the relationship has to show up there. Most places where people hook up, I would imagine, aren't dating services either. I know high school wasn't.

Second, I agree that for the most part, the CPPT as written really doesn't hurt anyone in any meaningful way. If seniors can't date cadets, so be it, and I think that the writers of the document generally did have the best interests of the cadets at heart. When you have a clear-cut statement like "If A, not B", then there isn't much of a chance of finding and exploiting any loopholes found in more complicated regulations.

HOWEVER...

I personally think that, if we decided that it was an issue, that it wouldn't be impossible to amend the regulations to have a maximum age difference (3 years?) between cadet/senior relationships, as seems to be the normal age difference for consensual sex in many states. And, frankly, I think it would actually do MORE to protect our cadets than what we have now. Let me explain...

We know that the people we need to worry about being around cadets are not going to disclose this sort of information to CAP. If we have a creepy 30 year old SM who wants to date a 14 year old cadet, there is no way, regulations or no, that he is going to be stopped from doing so by mere written words telling him he can't do it. All that happens is that the relationship remains quiet, while the abuse that we are worrying about can be occurring without our suspecting anything.

IF, however, we, by regulation, permitted dating relationships between cadets and senior members WITHIN THE THREE YEAR AGE RANGE so long as they disclosed their relationship to the squadron commander or whoever, then that would give us a means by which to monitor the relationship and, if necessary, move members around. For instance, if the 23 year old DCC and the 20 year old C/CC want to date, then the choice has to be either that the cadet gives up cadet status, or that the senior member is moved out of the DCC position to, say, communications officer with the senior staff, and has no authority or pull with the cadet program.

Bingo. The situation is controlled, we have the ability to control whom is in charge of what to ensure that there is no abuse of power, and the relationship is known by those who need to know about it. Now the only issues we have to worry about are the aforementioned creepy senior members, who will try to date cadets without disclosing it regardless of the regs. In other words, the ones we have to worry about now anyway.

YMMV
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Eclipse on January 29, 2009, 08:17:24 PM
Nathan, for starters, your idea would result in CAP sanctioning 18 year old seniors dating 15 year old cadets.
A relationship which is illegal in all but 6 states.

We also cannot address situations we do not know about, regardless of the situation, we are only able to
take action when we know there is an issue.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Nathan on January 29, 2009, 08:24:42 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 29, 2009, 08:17:24 PM
Nathan, for starters, your idea would result in CAP sanctioning 18 year old seniors dating 15 year old cadets.
A relationship which is illegal in all but 6 states.

Fair enough. Two years. It really doesn't matter that much. The main point is to just have some sort of allowable range out there.

Quote from: EclipseWe also cannot address situations we do not know about, regardless of the situation, we are only able to take action when we know there is an issue.

Right. I think that was my point (if I'm understanding you correctly).

If we know what is going on, we can deal with it as necessary. And dealing with it doesn't necessarily mean kicking people out; it can, as I suggested, simply mean moving someone to outside the cadet chain of command. That way, you don't tick off two members, especially if they were honest and open enough about their relationship to disclose it. What we would have to worry about both now and in this system is the relationships we DON'T know about, but at least this way, we're not putting the same hat on every single senior/cadet relationship.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Eclipse on January 29, 2009, 08:30:45 PM
The bottom line is that, no matter what the situation, you can't have people who are classified as "adults" dating people who are classified as "not adults", whether that's teachers, cadets, or similar situations.

And why are we so worried about ticking people off who violate common sense and / or regulations?  They know the rules, and willfully disobey.

What other important rules and regs do they choose to view as "optional"?
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Ned on January 29, 2009, 09:31:56 PM
Quote from: Johnny Yuma on January 29, 2009, 07:58:01 PM
Sorry Ned,

Apology accepted.

But seriously, I am not a CAP legal officer and have not been for over 17 years.  And even back then, I was only a IAOD legal officer at the group level.

Using your word, it is just a little "creepy" when you keep telling me why I did or didn't do things.

But let's not let that distract us from the more interesting discussion at hand.

Quote
When CPP went into effect 2 decades ago my Wing Queen at the time said it was an effort to stave off the troubles BSA was having with lawsuits from abused scouts from happening to CAP.

I've no doubt she said that, because that is at least one of the effects that CPP has had - reducing corporate liability for molestations.  That's why I said it was a kind of a "chicken and the egg" situation.  By increasing the safety for our cadets, we reduced danger to the corporation.  If you want a different metaphor, you could call it the flip side of the coin.

QuoteBesides, if cadet protection was the primary goal then members would NEVER have been discouraged from notifying civil authorities.

Sir, I taught this very subject ("mandatory reporters and the CPP") at the first ever National Legal Officers College in Colorado Springs, and I can assure you I never discouraged anyone from notifying civil authorities.

Really.

Quote
Student/teacher relationships are not abusive but are more a form of sexual harrassment, which is already addressed by regulation: If the subordinate objects to the behavior of the superior then it's handled. I've said this before: Abuse issues involving cadets over 18 should be handled under these regulations.

So, you think the best way is to put the burden on the lower-ranking cadet to report the abuse by the higher ranking member and to produce the evidence to sustain a complaint?

That might certainly make sense in some sort of sexual harassment situation where both the parties have equal status and operate at arms length, but to require the lower-ranking individual cadet to take action is just a recipe to shut them up and maintain the status quo.

Quote
There are countless numbers of couples in the armed forces where one spouse is an officer and the other is EM or in some other way a subordinate. All the DoD seems to have issue with is that they cannot serve in the same unit or in each other's Chain of Command.

But were weren't talking about the more general topic of Officer / enlisted fraternization.  We were talking specifically about student / leader relationships.

And Uncle Sam has strict rules that absolutely prohibit the staff of any organization with cadets from dating the cadets, regardless of the ages of the participants.

Honestly, cadre at USMA, USNA, USAFA, and ROTC units cannot date the cadets.  Period, end of discussion.  A simple, bright line that is easy to understand and enforce.  And serves to protect the cadets from exploitation from avaricious staff members who should be training the cadets rather than sleeping with them

And it seems to be working for them.

Quote
There is one couple in CAP whose romantic relationship began [. . .]

Yup, that's part of the problem, all right.  A not-insignificant percentage of decision-makers in CAP have dated cadets, and oddly enough, didn't see anything wrong with it.

Human nature, I guess. 

But to their credit, the NB - after full debate and discussion - adopted our current "seniors don't date cadets under any circumstances" rule.

I appreciate the fact that you think our volunteer leaders "got it wrong," and are certainly free to urge them to change the regulation.

In the meantime I assume that you, like all of us, will follow the regulation and require those who work for you to do the same.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Nathan on January 30, 2009, 12:15:52 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 29, 2009, 08:30:45 PM
The bottom line is that, no matter what the situation, you can't have people who are classified as "adults" dating people who are classified as "not adults", whether that's teachers, cadets, or similar situations.

I disagree. And I'll revert to the same examples I've used before.

I am a cadet for two more months. As a cadet, I am seen as a non-adult (I hesitate to say "child" because I don't think that is the case). As such, I am not allowed to smoke in uniform.

Outside of CAP, I am an adult, completely free to do whatever adult things I happen to want to do, including smoking, gambling, go to a rated R movie, go to a strip club, etc. These are things that, while in uniform, as a non-adult, I would not be permitted to do, but on my own time, I am legally an adult civilian, free to do as I wish.

That's the key right there. As an adult, I can make my own decisions about what legal adult things I want to do, including things that I am not allowed to do in CAP uniform. Period.

For an understandable reason, the only place that I've seen CAP cut deep and enforce is between senior/cadet dating relationships. As I said, I completely understand it, and am okay with the idea of it. However, if we were willing to put work into it, I would fully support amending there in some fashion to be flexibility.

The main idea behind the way it is written now (I am assuming) is because it would be insane for us to try to monitor and investigate every single case of cadet/senior dating and test it for legal and ethical validity, so we simply build a rule that prohibits it completely and saves us a lot of work. Not only that, but we don't have to worry about the abuse of power, one way or the other.

By setting the 2 year range (or even based upon legality in the state), we can reward those couples that come forth and help CAP adjust to the relationship by way of ensuring there is no conflict of interest or the like. That way, the goal of the CPPT is still in full force in terms of protecting cadets from creepy seniors, but also does not punish what I would imagine to be a good number of couples who are close in age and really have no sinister motives at all. I would imagine that if the couple is willing to come forth and work with CAP, the total amount of time spent dealing with the issue goes way down to begin with, since their cooperation is there.

The overall goal is to make this restriction a little less... restrictive... on those who are willing to cooperate, and hopefully let some of the adults we've been training our cadets to be, well, BE adults.

Seems logical to me.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Johnny Yuma on January 31, 2009, 02:10:56 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 29, 2009, 02:38:28 PM
Quote from: Johnny Yuma on January 29, 2009, 05:21:25 AM
An 18 year old is a legal adult in the eyes of the law, cadet or not. Sorry Ned, but anyone who attempts to make the argument that prohibiting a cadet/senior relationship between consenting legal adults prevents pedophiles from abusing underaged cadets is beyond ridiculous. 

Frankly, IMHO NHQ's interest in its legal adult member's sexual and romantic relationships not only out of line but very creepy.   

You're not really tracking this whole "cadets aren't adults in the eyes of CAP" thing are you?

Yes, I am.

If a cadet over 18 isn't an adult in the eyes of CAP, then why are they required to jump through all the CPPT hoops as if they were a Senior?

I'm also finding it hard to reconcile how an 18 year old TFO can date their 80 year old unit commander if they wanted to and yet if the girlfriend or fiancee of a 20 year old cadet wants to join CAP as a Senior member, even if they were in a long distance relationship, separate unit, wing, or even region, this is by policy cadet abuse. 

QuoteCAP has no legal authority to tell anyone to do anything, but if you want to stay a cadet, and maintain access to the various cadet-only opportunities, you follow the rules.

Same goes for seniors.

I see. Another example where a Zero-tolerance policy has somehow removed rational thought from common sense folk and turned them into mindless drones for someone elses bidding.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: RiverAux on January 31, 2009, 03:53:38 AM
It seems extremely obvious to me that the cadet protection program is there to protect both cadets AND seniors and that the side-effect of that is that it protects CAP.  One doesn't exclude the other.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Eclipse on January 31, 2009, 05:15:27 AM
Quote from: Johnny Yuma on January 31, 2009, 02:10:56 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 29, 2009, 02:38:28 PM
Quote from: Johnny Yuma on January 29, 2009, 05:21:25 AM
An 18 year old is a legal adult in the eyes of the law, cadet or not. Sorry Ned, but anyone who attempts to make the argument that prohibiting a cadet/senior relationship between consenting legal adults prevents pedophiles from abusing underaged cadets is beyond ridiculous. 

Frankly, IMHO NHQ's interest in its legal adult member's sexual and romantic relationships not only out of line but very creepy.   

You're not really tracking this whole "cadets aren't adults in the eyes of CAP" thing are you?

Yes, I am.

If a cadet over 18 isn't an adult in the eyes of CAP, then why are they required to jump through all the CPPT hoops as if they were a Senior?

Because CAP is not blind to the practical and biological realities of 18 years olds, nor the fact that in the real of the world being 18 makes you a legal adult for most things.

Again - if you want to remain in the part of the program where you are not expected to be responsible for yourself or others, with the return being access to unique, once-in-a-lifetime opportunities, you obey the rules and don't fraternize with your adult leaders. 

Quote from: Johnny Yuma on January 31, 2009, 02:10:56 AM
I'm also finding it hard to reconcile how an 18 year old TFO can date their 80 year old unit commander if they wanted to and yet if the girlfriend or fiancee of a 20 year old cadet wants to join CAP as a Senior member, even if they were in a long distance relationship, separate unit, wing, or even region, this is by policy cadet abuse. 

No one said it was abuse, its simply against regulations, and if some opportunity is so important to that 20 year old cadet that they choose to stay in the CP rather than transition, the fiancee can wait a year to join.  We'll still be here.

The reality is that by the time you are 18 or 19 years old, if you choose to stay a cadet there is likely some very compelling personal reason or goal that you have set for yourself.  That's great, that's why CAP is here - to facilitate those opportunities, but at the same time, in order to maintain discipline, core values and the intangibles that make up a healthy cadet corps, we need to establish and hold-fast the cadet / adult separation in visible, tangible, ways.

The people here making the impassioned arguments for dropping these regs seem to be assuming that everyone is on their best behavior at all times, never acting in thoughtless or nefarious ways, when the truth is that the reason we have all these regs in the first place, from CPPT all the way to the new EO training, is a history of bad actors both inside and outside of CAP who have shown that in most cases human beings tend to make the worst choices possible.

Thought for the day:
Just because you can argue that no matter how hard you try to stop "something" people will do it anyway, doesn't make that "something" right, nor does it make the efforts to stop that "something" wrong.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Nathan on January 31, 2009, 06:04:06 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 31, 2009, 05:15:27 AMAgain - if you want to remain in the part of the program where you are not expected to be responsible for yourself or others, with the return being access to unique, once-in-a-lifetime opportunities, you obey the rules and don't fraternize with your adult leaders.

THAT is the key point that leaves room in this policy for improvement. Thanks for stating it so clearly.

Cadets are not allowed to fraternize with cadet leaders. Cadets are only permitted to date or fraternize if they are not causing a conflict-of-interest situation by having a large power difference, ie, a flight commander dating the cadet commander. Nor would I imagine that it would be appropriate for a mother SM to be the official test grader for her cadet son's CAP test.

The MAIN goal of the CPP is to protect cadets from creepy seniors. Fair enough, but that doesn't cover what I imagine are the majority of challenges to this rule, where we have a cadet and senior less than a year apart. I honestly don't think that we even need to bring the CPPT into the equation at all in dealing with conflict of interests, because, like the fact that not every high-ranking cadet has authority over every low-ranking cadet, not every senior member has command or power over every single cadet. That's simply not the way it works.

So the argument that we're avoiding cadets dating their leaders isn't working. I only have two people in charge of me as a cadet colonel in my squadron: the DCC and the squadron commander. That is my chain of command. Everyone else I respect because they are senior members and their rank warrants it, just as I would expect some C/A1C I see in the hall in Missouri who doesn't know me to afford me respect based upon my rank. NO DIFFERENCE.

The power play problem is completely outside of the realm of the CPP, and assuming that the CPP didn't exist, I would still imagine that cadets wouldn't be allowed to date ANYONE, cadet OR senior, who is in their direct chain of command. That is simply a professionalism issue.

Which... once again... my possible idea would solve by letting the commander KNOW about the relationship and therefore take appropriate measures to avoid any conflict of interests.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: hatentx on January 31, 2009, 01:56:23 PM
Quote from: Nathan on January 31, 2009, 06:04:06 AM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 31, 2009, 05:15:27 AMAgain - if you want to remain in the part of the program where you are not expected to be responsible for yourself or others, with the return being access to unique, once-in-a-lifetime opportunities, you obey the rules and don't fraternize with your adult leaders.

THAT is the key point that leaves room in this policy for improvement. Thanks for stating it so clearly.

Cadets are not allowed to fraternize with cadet leaders. Cadets are only permitted to date or fraternize if they are not causing a conflict-of-interest situation by having a large power difference, ie, a flight commander dating the cadet commander. Nor would I imagine that it would be appropriate for a mother SM to be the official test grader for her cadet son's CAP test.

The MAIN goal of the CPP is to protect cadets from creepy seniors. Fair enough, but that doesn't cover what I imagine are the majority of challenges to this rule, where we have a cadet and senior less than a year apart. I honestly don't think that we even need to bring the CPPT into the equation at all in dealing with conflict of interests, because, like the fact that not every high-ranking cadet has authority over every low-ranking cadet, not every senior member has command or power over every single cadet. That's simply not the way it works.

So the argument that we're avoiding cadets dating their leaders isn't working. I only have two people in charge of me as a cadet colonel in my squadron: the DCC and the squadron commander. That is my chain of command. Everyone else I respect because they are senior members and their rank warrants it, just as I would expect some C/A1C I see in the hall in Missouri who doesn't know me to afford me respect based upon my rank. NO DIFFERENCE.

The power play problem is completely outside of the realm of the CPP, and assuming that the CPP didn't exist, I would still imagine that cadets wouldn't be allowed to date ANYONE, cadet OR senior, who is in their direct chain of command. That is simply a professionalism issue.

Which... once again... my possible idea would solve by letting the commander KNOW about the relationship and therefore take appropriate measures to avoid any conflict of interests.

Nathan while I agree with your point, the fact is as a SM who is not in your Chain of Command they are still in a position of leadership and responsibility.  Before I was a Cadet Programs guy I would hang around the Cadets.  I did drill test and would teach as well.  There are also times in which I may be the project officer and have cadets who are working with me or who I am allowing to "run" the event but I am the only SM supervision.  This then could cause a conflict of interest.  What is my girl friend a 20 year old Cadet I place in the booth at an event because she has better skills managing a booth or talking to people rather than putting her out in the heat on a parking detail.  It can quickly be seen as I am favoring her because she is in a relationship with me.  I am sure this has been seen between parents in leadership position and their children doing better or cooler things in CAP because of that or at least that few point.  There really isn't much difference.

I agree that if a 18 year old cadet chooses to become a SM because that is the best decision for that cadet but has a relationship with a 17 year old cadet and they must end it by the regulation seems dumb.  While I think there should be some way of working through the situation with out the ended of the relationship.  I am not here to argue the fact of what is an adult or not I know the older I get the less of an adult I realize I was.  However any SM can be in a place of responsibility over any cadet and there in lies the conflict of interest. 

While I am 25 and have dated and 18 year old young woman, outside of CAP, if I were to meet a cadet that was 18 and her and I were to hit it off I would be PO'ed to know I cant do anything about it other than one of us quit or her become a SM as well.  I can see the frustration.  I wouldnt mind seeing something better come along but I dont personally see a safe alternative to the situation.  While me and this 18 year old cadet may have the most profesional relationship in the world the next guy my be over bearing a jelouse and push the fact he is a 1stLt in CAP and that they better treat his c/CMS better than they are.

I have no arguments that the grey area of dating in the 17 to 20 something crowd can be an issue but again rules are sometimes made for the better of an organization and not for the good people that will do the right and honorable thing.  Does it suck??? Yeah it does but again that is adult hood.  Is it mass punishment??  Yep it is but in situations like this were unit moral a long with the possible legal issue that could ensue this is a Safety Nazi Regulation made by CAP for the betterment of CAP as a whole and not on the individual level.

I do think the arguing the fact of the Legal issue is pointless the CPP was in place by CAP as a CYA type thing and to be honest I dont blame them in a lawsuit happy society we live in the have to cover their's.  No Issue with me I just make sure I am above reproach in all dealings I have especially with Cadets.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Nathan on January 31, 2009, 04:02:20 PM
Quote from: hatentx on January 31, 2009, 01:56:23 PM
Nathan while I agree with your point, the fact is as a SM who is not in your Chain of Command they are still in a position of leadership and responsibility.

Like I said, any way it's spun, that simply is not an issue that is any different than cadet/cadet or senior/senior relationships.

The main idea is that we would not allow ANY member, regardless of rank, age, or membership status, to be in an intimate relationship with another member within the same chain of command. If I were the cadet commander, I should not be dating any cadets below me, nor any cadets or seniors above me. A senior should not be dating any cadets or seniors below in the chain of command, nor any seniors above.

My point is that if the CPP did not exist, and seniors WERE allowed to date cadets, we would STILL have to watch out for members within the same command chain dating, regardless of rank or membership status. The issue of conflict-of-interests due to dating has NOTHING to do with cadet protection. The fact that a senior is by definition a leader of cadets is not ANY different than me, as a cadet colonel, by definition, being a leader of cadets. If I as a cadet am placed in charge of a cadet I am dating below me, how is that any different than a senior being placed in charge of a cadet he or she is dating?

The issues of cadet protection and prevention of conflict-of-interest are separate issues. They were easy to lump together in the CPP, and I don't exactly think it's a bad enough issue to warrant full-scale war over, but IF it were going through a revision process, I think that it certainly could benefit by separating the two issues out.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Eclipse on January 31, 2009, 04:20:00 PM
Quote from: Nathan on January 31, 2009, 04:02:20 PM
My point is that if the CPP did not exist, and seniors WERE allowed to date cadets, we would STILL have to watch out for members within the same command chain dating, regardless of rank or membership status. The issue of conflict-of-interests due to dating has NOTHING to do with cadet protection. The fact that a senior is by definition a leader of cadets is not ANY different than me, as a cadet colonel, by definition, being a leader of cadets. If I as a cadet am placed in charge of a cadet I am dating below me, how is that any different than a senior being placed in charge of a cadet he or she is dating?

Because neither of you are considered an adult within the program, and neither of you is responsible for yourself or others in the same way that a senior member is.

You may be in charge of that cadet from a tactical or operational perspective, but the senior member in the room is the one in command.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: ßτε on January 31, 2009, 04:35:51 PM
Quote from: Nathan on January 31, 2009, 04:02:20 PM
Like I said, any way it's spun, that simply is not an issue that is any different than cadet/cadet or senior/senior relationships.

The main idea is that we would not allow ANY member, regardless of rank, age, or membership status, to be in an intimate relationship with another member within the same chain of command. If I were the cadet commander, I should not be dating any cadets below me, nor any cadets or seniors above me. A senior should not be dating any cadets or seniors below in the chain of command, nor any seniors above.

Tho only such relationship forbidden by regulation is one between a senior member and a cadet. Cadet/cadet or senior/senior relationships are not forbidden unless the cadet/cadet relationship is abusive.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Major Carrales on January 31, 2009, 05:45:19 PM
Quote from: bte on January 31, 2009, 04:35:51 PM
Quote from: Nathan on January 31, 2009, 04:02:20 PM

Like I said, any way it's spun, that simply is not an issue that is any different than cadet/cadet or senior/senior relationships.

The main idea is that we would not allow ANY member, regardless of rank, age, or membership status, to be in an intimate relationship with another member within the same chain of command. If I were the cadet commander, I should not be dating any cadets below me, nor any cadets or seniors above me. A senior should not be dating any cadets or seniors below in the chain of command, nor any seniors above.

Tho only such relationship forbidden by regulation is one between a senior member and a cadet. Cadet/cadet or senior/senior relationships are not forbidden unless the cadet/cadet relationship is abusive.

I will add this, any and all sexualy activity at CAP funtions is/should be prohibited.  There is a time and place for all things, for sexual activity I will venture to opine that a CAP function (SARex, Encampment, meeting and so forth) is neither the time nor the place.  Think of it as Heisenberg's theory on relationships and CAP, there is neither a time nor place in CAP for sexual activity.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: sparks on January 31, 2009, 06:02:06 PM
Cadet romances can't be avoided. The only mandate that can be made is that affectionate gestures not be allowed in a CAP setting. That was in the regs at one time. I have witnessed romances within squadrons, across wings and even regional. Those summer encampments have side effects.

There are predators everywhere even with the screening program so seniors dating cadets should remain banned. Be aware that sometimes the cadet makes overtures toward a senior. The ban is there to protect both of them. Having two seniors in a room with a cadet is intended to avoid the "he did she did issues" which can arise out of those one on one encounters. After being involved in a few IG investigations on these issues you really don't want to allow the situation to develop. The results of an investigation seems to always result in ill will for CAP and everyone involved.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Ricochet13 on January 31, 2009, 06:21:11 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 29, 2009, 08:07:05 PM
Seniors dating seniors - fundamentally bad idea.

So using the random examples of a few married couples in CAP, or happy dating cadets, does not change the fact that its a bad idea, and in most case works out to the detriment of the actors, the unit, or CAP.

So . . .  Well . . .  Ah . . .  Good grief!   This is astonishing!    >:(    As with any relationships, care needs to be exercised that inter-personal relationships of any kind don't interfere with the mission have an adverse impact on the climate and culture of the squadron etc. 

". . . in most cases . . . "  How do back up these conclusions. Show me!   IMHO they are based on false premises and to perpetuate them does a disservice.  Tell me I'm interpreting your statements incorrectly.

Senior dating Senior - none of your business as long as there is no adverse affect on the squadron.

An one more thought . . . that of role models.  Perhaps it might be a positive influence on cadets and others to see mature human beings relating in a positive and rational manner.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Eclipse on January 31, 2009, 06:33:59 PM
Quote from: Ricochet13 on January 31, 2009, 06:21:11 PM
Senior dating Senior - none of your business as long as there is no adverse affect on the squadron.

And therein lies the rub - no ones cares, really, in any of these cases until things go FUBAR and then its usually too late to reel them in. Thus, the rules to prevent the situation in the first place, or at least be used as the "you knew better" hammer when people can't be bothered to listen.

As to my examples, unfortunately they involve PERSEC, and therefore cannot be shared.  I'm comfortable in my knowledge of the details and unfortunate required involvement that they are not anomalous, and they were detrimental to the corps and the people involved.

CAP, unlike similar organizations, is not a social club.  Setting "good examples" of dating situations is not what its there for.

These discussions are always "simple" on the micro level - "the two star-struck cadets with a destiny to be together, save for the overlords of CAP barring their love...", consider the chaos in this organization were we not to both actively discourage and / or outright prohibit these relationships.

Encampments would likely get very popular, but not for the reasons we'd like them to be.

Common sense people, but I'll say it again.  CAP is not a dating service, and if your attention and eyes are focused where they are supposed to be, there's no time for this nonsense, nor would the ideas ever come into mind.

Another thing to consider in the "cadets aren't adults" discussion.  Adults, generally, have learned that "fire is hot and you should not touch it".  Children generally either haven't learned what happens when you touch fire, or are convinced that they can touch it without getting hurt, because "the old guys didn't know where to grab it".  In either case its the "old guys' " responsibility to protect the kids from that fire.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: BGNightfall on January 31, 2009, 07:13:38 PM
I offer this up for consumption in the thread, the military has very cut and dried regulations on fraternization.  While there are some intricacies regarding rank that do not especially apply in this context, there is one bit that I find addresses this issue well.

Namely, that service members in a training status, regardless of rank, are prohibited from undue relationships with the training staff.  As far as I can tell from my own cadet service with CAP, cadet members are very nearly always in a training status, as opposed to an operational status.  Senior members, even if they are at the time being trained, still serve as a training staff for cadet members.  As such, no matter how you cut the pie, this relationship is fraternization and therefore out of regs.

Older and wiser heads have commented that if this relationship is unavoidable, then there is no harm in the affected parties leaving the organization for a while.  In all honesty, while Civil Air Patrol is an outstanding organization, there are far more things in this life to be experienced. 

For my own part, I see no reason for this regulation to be relaxed, go away, or change in any way.  In all seriousness, NHQ has a nation-wide organization to govern, and if they nitpick about such a cut and dried concept for the sake of a very small handful of cadets/SMs who cannot bear to part with each other, or their respective programs, then there is really no point in having any regulation at all.

[/soapbox]
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Grumpy on January 31, 2009, 08:03:27 PM
Gee, when I was a cadet I dated this young lady.  We were married for 29 years before I lost her to cancer.  Should I be 2b'd retroactively to 1963?
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Major Carrales on January 31, 2009, 08:19:07 PM
Quote from: Grumpy on January 31, 2009, 08:03:27 PM
Gee, when I was a cadet I dated this young lady.  We were married for 29 years before I lost her to cancer.  Should I be 2b'd retroactively to 1963?

I think the sticking point of this thread is really aimed at those "late cadets" (18-21) and their relationships to Senior Members (22-and beyond) and how this is to be looked at.  Some comments, like "Who are you to be telling adult American Citizens they cannot be involed?" seem to support the idea that these people should be allowed to enter relationships beyond mere friendship.

My initial contention in this thread on the matter involved the situation of regulating this.  Cadets on their own time are not really subject to commanders authority...as it is unreasonable to ask a commander to monitor 20-40 cadets 24/7 and impose their morality over times when the commander is not present.

It is within that authorty, however, to prevent "hank-panky" when on CAP activities. 

Stopping two peoplwe from "dating" is traditionally a hard thing to do.  Some might say that love, true love, would find a way.  As seen in your example, Grummpy.

I should end by pointing out that there should be no public display of affection on CAP activities.   We are there for the missions, training and to some degree of socializtion...not to involve ourselves in a displays of love, lust or any of that.  It is when the line is crossed at the activities that bad stuff happens.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Grumpy on January 31, 2009, 08:49:28 PM
Amen.  It isn't the dating that's the problem.  It's the public display of affection.  Sucking face in uniform doesn't get it.
I agree with you whole heartedly.  The no dating part is one of those things that's unenforceable
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: lordmonar on January 31, 2009, 08:59:02 PM
Me and Sparky don't agree on a lot of things...but on this issue we do agree to a point.

Yes CAP does have some say in what CAP members do in their off hours.  But as a former commander I did not have the time to be the Dating Police.

What a person does on his off time....is not my buisness.  If I find out about it...via the grapevine, personal observation or news reports I will deal with in an appropriate mannter.

Keeping my cadets and SM safe, getting the mission done, protecting the organisation and keeping my work load down....in that order of priority.

The bright line rule on cadet/senior dating made my job as a commander harder not easier.  While it makes it very easy to kick out the old lecher preying on the 14 year olds it scrambled the rules for the 16-23 members.

Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Eclipse on January 31, 2009, 09:00:07 PM
As always comes around in these threads, there's plenty of behavioral restrictions placed on cadets and seniors when they are "off duty", bust one of those bright lines, or even get too close, and see how quickly your non-CAP behavior gets you booted or disciplined.

There's no such thing as an unenforceable regulation.  Difficult, unpopular, but nothing is impossible.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Major Carrales on January 31, 2009, 10:01:53 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 31, 2009, 09:00:07 PM
There's no such thing as an unenforceable regulation.  Difficult, unpopular, but nothing is impossible.

My point is that the regulation is enforceable when the commander is around, down by the railroad yard at 0300 hrs is not enforceable. 

For the sake of debate...
Suppose some cadet parent make issue of some activity between two youngsters at the locale and time mentioned priorhence because the two happen to be cadets?  Would the Commander be "in the wrong" for not monitoring the cadets at off hours?  I would think the fault would lie with the parent rather than the commander, but these days who knows.  She shifting of blame away from the individual is quite a modus openandi of our time.

Lordmonar, I would venture to say we agree on a lot more than what you would think.  Judge us not merely by the typed words on the forum.  I should some day like to work with you in CAP much closer than merely hitting the forums.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Eclipse on January 31, 2009, 10:12:02 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on January 31, 2009, 10:01:53 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 31, 2009, 09:00:07 PM
There's no such thing as an unenforceable regulation.  Difficult, unpopular, but nothing is impossible.

My point is that the regulation is enforceable when the commander is around, down by the railroad yard at 0300 hrs is not enforceable. 

Is enforceable as soon as someone finds out.  Absent paperwork it never happened.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Major Carrales on January 31, 2009, 11:57:27 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 31, 2009, 10:12:02 PM
Quote from: Major Carrales on January 31, 2009, 10:01:53 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on January 31, 2009, 09:00:07 PM
There's no such thing as an unenforceable regulation.  Difficult, unpopular, but nothing is impossible.

My point is that the regulation is enforceable when the commander is around, down by the railroad yard at 0300 hrs is not enforceable. 

Is enforceable as soon as someone finds out.  Absent paperwork it never happened.


So, If it were to happen.  Two cadets who attend the same school, have known each other from other places (church, youth group, neighborhood) the Civil Air Patrol is liable?

I cannot fathom that when a cadet joins the unit suddenly the commander is responsible for them 24/7 365?  That seems a little unreasonable.  I'm assuming you cannot mean that and that I am somehow a victim of my own hyperbole. 

The cadets mean alot to me, many are and have been students of mine in school.  I want them to have the best time possible in CAP, that they can look back at and say..."Wow...when I was a kid I was a CAP cadet.  We did great things." And then smile for the fine memories, networking and experience that they had. 

I would do most anything, legal and ethical of course, for my Unit's cadets, but how would you have me be their keepers?
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Hawk200 on February 01, 2009, 12:44:25 AM
I don't think any regulation should ever be considered in the manner of "Can we enforce this?" or "How do we enforce this?" The point of regs is not to be enforced, but to be followed in the first place.

CAP does not have the same ability to enforce anything like the military does. It's also why leadership is crucial for us. Our "orders" don't have the force of law like military officers have.

Compliance is a matter of integrity. Those that lack it will find ways to violate regs. Does it matter that someone doesn't know? No, it doesn't. If you're violating regs, whether caught or not, you lack integrity, honor, sense of duty.

Even if you're not caught in one wrong, eventually it will catch up to you. Justice has a way of being served, even if we aren't the ones presenting it. Willful, hidden violators will show their absence of integrity eventually. I've seen many people shown the door, and found out later about reg violations. Most of them were stupid enough to brag about it. Just makes them look worse.

We enforce what we can, educate on what is forbidden, and hope that people have the good sense to do what's right.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Gunner C on February 01, 2009, 03:58:33 AM
Quote from: Hawk200 on February 01, 2009, 12:44:25 AM
I don't think any regulation should ever be considered in the manner of "Can we enforce this?" or "How do we enforce this?" The point of regs is not to be enforced, but to be followed in the first place.

CAP does not have the same ability to enforce anything like the military does. It's also why leadership is crucial for us. Our "orders" don't have the force of law like military officers have.

Compliance is a matter of integrity. Those that lack it will find ways to violate regs. Does it matter that someone doesn't know? No, it doesn't. If you're violating regs, whether caught or not, you lack integrity, honor, sense of duty.

Even if you're not caught in one wrong, eventually it will catch up to you. Justice has a way of being served, even if we aren't the ones presenting it. Willful, hidden violators will show their absence of integrity eventually. I've seen many people shown the door, and found out later about reg violations. Most of them were stupid enough to brag about it. Just makes them look worse.

We enforce what we can, educate on what is forbidden, and hope that people have the good sense to do what's right.
It's called teaching and developing character.  Character is what you do when no one is looking.  Bottom line - character is what we should be teaching: aerospace ed, leadership, uniforms, encampments, flying, ground teams, etc are only the vehicle.  We can't regulate a cadet 24/7, but we can teach them to regulate themselves.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Eclipse on February 01, 2009, 04:16:13 AM
Quote from: Gunner C on February 01, 2009, 03:58:33 AM
We enforce what we can, educate on what is forbidden, and hope that people have the good sense to do what's right.
It's called teaching and developing character.  Character is what you do when no one is looking.  Bottom line - character is what we should be teaching: aerospace ed, leadership, uniforms, encampments, flying, ground teams, etc are only the vehicle.  We can't regulate a cadet 24/7, but we can teach them to regulate themselves.[/quote]

+1
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: RiverAux on February 01, 2009, 03:20:12 PM
Say all you want about building character, but regulations have to be realistic as well.  Just because CAP can write a regulation requiring all members to wear purple underwear while on CAP duty doesn't mean that it should. 
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Ned on February 01, 2009, 04:37:29 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on February 01, 2009, 03:20:12 PM
Say all you want about building character, but regulations have to be realistic as well.  Just because CAP can write a regulation requiring all members to wear purple underwear while on CAP duty doesn't mean that it should. 

1.  Ya just had to sneak a uniform item (purple underwear) into a cadet programs thread, didn't you? We will now have several pages off topic while we debate whether it applies to both corporate and usaf styled uniforms and if we can wear mini-medals or not.   ;D

2.  Trying to stay on topic, let me remind everyone that the regulation is pretty darn realistic and permits cadets to date.  (I suspect the author was probably an 18 year old cadet at one point.  The only prohibition is on the senior-cadet dating and is in line with every other youth organization in the country.)  Not to mention every institution of higher learning.

Sounds pretty realistic to me.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: RiverAux on February 01, 2009, 06:03:12 PM
I was making a general statement about writing CAP regulations rather than referring to this one in particular.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: JayT on February 06, 2009, 11:22:57 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on February 01, 2009, 03:20:12 PM
Say all you want about building character, but regulations have to be realistic as well.  Just because CAP can write a regulation requiring all members to wear purple underwear while on CAP duty doesn't mean that it should. 

This is almost a classic CAP thing.

We all want more roles in the Air Force.
 
We want to wear identical Air Force insignia.

We want to train more, deploy more, expand our fleet, etc etc.

But the second there's a regulation we don't agree with, it's "unrealistic."
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: lordmonar on February 06, 2009, 11:33:34 PM
Quote from: JThemann on February 06, 2009, 11:22:57 PM
Quote from: RiverAux on February 01, 2009, 03:20:12 PM
Say all you want about building character, but regulations have to be realistic as well.  Just because CAP can write a regulation requiring all members to wear purple underwear while on CAP duty doesn't mean that it should. 

This is almost a classic CAP thing.

We all want more roles in the Air Force.
 
We want to wear identical Air Force insignia.

We want to train more, deploy more, expand our fleet, etc etc.

But the second there's a regulation we don't agree with, it's "unrealistic."

And that is a overgeneralization of what he was trying to say.

Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: JayT on February 07, 2009, 12:05:12 AM
Perhaps sir, but I think it's still in the same spirit.

It's a volunteer organization. If you disagree with a regulation, push for a change.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Gunner C on February 07, 2009, 11:43:39 AM
Quote from: JThemann on February 07, 2009, 12:05:12 AM
Perhaps sir, but I think it's still in the same spirit.

It's a volunteer organization. If you disagree with a regulation, push for a change.
Or leave.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: RiverAux on February 07, 2009, 03:48:22 PM
QuoteBut the second there's a regulation we don't agree with, it's "unrealistic."
There is a big difference in agreeing with the spirit of a regulation and understanding the severe limitations CAP has in enforcing compliance with any particular regulation. 

Using my example, I might actually think it is a great idea for CAP members to wear purple underwear underneath our uniforms, but as a thinking adult I understand that it is someething that we're not going to be able to enforce.  And if something can't be enforced, then maybe having that rule is a waste of time. 

Yes, in an ideal world everyone would follow every regulation based on their sense of honor.  However, that is not ever going to happen.  Hence, we have police officers, and in CAP we have compliance inspections, IGs, etc.   So, at some point you have to sit down and think about every part of a regulation and say to yourself, "Can this really work?".

By the way, these are just general observations on regulatory theory.  I don't have a particular opinion about this particular thread topic.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Flying Pig on February 07, 2009, 04:04:05 PM
I dont mind cadets dating.  I dont promote it, but Im not going to loose sleep over it.  But they need to keep it away from the meeting and activities.  Its also good to know about it when you see 17 yr old C/Col. Joe Smith and 16 yr old C/Capt. Jenny Jones walking away for a staff meeting 3 times per meeting.
Think about it, a bunch of teenagers? Good luck actually enforcing it.  Especially when most cadets live in the same communities and go to school together.  If they are inappropriate, lock them on.  On the other hand, if you know an older cadet who is keeping their CAP relationship in check, pull him/her aside and tell them you appreciate how professional they are conducting themselves.  I specify older.  Whatever your definition is.   I dont personally advocate telling 13 yr old A1C that. 
Personally, if I find out about your CAP relationship based on your actions at CAP, there is a problem.  When I was a cadet, my high school girlfriend joined CAP. I was a C/FO (Flight Officer for you youngins') and she was a C/B.  As a teenager, we wernt going to break up because she joined. But we were also both in JROTC and kept it away from CAP.   A good sign of maturity in cadets is when they can keep their emotions in check at the right times.  Social Awareness.  You dont ALWAYS need to have your hand on her or him!  Hey...sounds like a class for a Chaplain.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: JoeTomasone on February 07, 2009, 04:43:56 PM

I can't believe that this is still being debated.


The regs are pretty clear:

Prohibited:  Cadet/Senior dating.

Discouraged:  Cadet/Cadet dating when the cadets are of significantly different grades or when one is in the chain of command of the other.


When do you enforce the Cadet/Cadet dating issue?  When it is both known and becomes a problem.   If Cadet Major Jones (the Cadet Commander) is dating Cadet Captain Smith and it's not causing problems with favoritism, insubordination, etc, then it's not hurting anything.    If it becomes an issue, then you deal with it.   Same if Cadet Smith is a Cadet Airman who just joined a while ago.

If Cadet Jones is in line to become the Cadet Commander and you think that the relationship might cause issues, then you let Cadet Jones know that getting and keeping the position is dependent on it not being the cause of issues.    If that happens, you fix it.


Obviously you cannot (and should not) regulate what Cadets do on their own time.   But you can certainly can (and should) mitigate any detrimental effects on the Unit.   


Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Pumbaa on February 07, 2009, 09:29:39 PM
Thanks Joe, it only took 103 posts to get my answer.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: JoeTomasone on February 08, 2009, 01:56:19 AM
Quote from: Pumbaa on February 07, 2009, 09:29:39 PM
Thanks Joe, it only took 103 posts to get my answer.

Actually, you had it in post two.   I just rehashed and added some color to the quote I posted way back then.

Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Earhart1971 on April 08, 2009, 02:18:11 AM
Quote from: caprr275 on January 25, 2009, 04:10:19 PM
kids will be kids.... just keep it under control.... and yes I dated my fair share of female cadets when I was a cadet

Pretty much: What happens on NON CAP TIME is not CAPs business. I tell Cadets no touching or PDA on a CAP site or function. If you date keep it off CAP TIME and away from CAP site and buildings. What happens off duty at the Movie Theater or elsewhere is between you, your friend and your parents and God.  And use some common sense.

Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Eclipse on April 08, 2009, 02:26:36 AM
Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 08, 2009, 02:18:11 AM
Quote from: caprr275 on January 25, 2009, 04:10:19 PM
kids will be kids.... just keep it under control.... and yes I dated my fair share of female cadets when I was a cadet

Pretty much: What happens on NON CAP TIME is not CAPs business. I tell Cadets no touching or PDA on a CAP site or function. If you date keep it off CAP TIME and away from CAP site and buildings. What happens off duty at the Movie Theater or elsewhere is between you, your friend and your parents and God.  And use some common sense.

Spin again, or re-read this thread.  Plenty of what happens on non-CAP time is potentially open to disciplinary action internal to CAP, with the potential for civil liability and even criminal penalties.

Some of it is relevant to this dating discussion, some relevant to operations, and some just "What were you thinking?", but it is what it is.  I won't spin the thread with examples of the hair-brained / lights off things cadets and seniors do that gets them in trouble with CAP even though they are "off duty", but bear in mind the line if not so bright, especially if what you do involves a uniform, COV or other equipment.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Earhart1971 on April 08, 2009, 04:26:18 AM
CAP and off duty time is seperate. What is the point of CAP trying to expand liability to CAP or a Squadron Commander, after or off duty, away from Civil Air Patrol?

There is no way a Squadron Commander can control two Cadets with Drivers licenses from driving away from a meeting and then having a date. How you going to stop that? Again, Common Sense.





Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: DBlair on April 08, 2009, 05:29:42 AM
Quote from: JoeTomasone on February 07, 2009, 04:43:56 PMI can't believe that this is still being debated.


The regs are pretty clear:

Prohibited:  Cadet/Senior dating.

Discouraged:  Cadet/Cadet dating when the cadets are of significantly different grades or when one is in the chain of command of the other.


When do you enforce the Cadet/Cadet dating issue?  When it is both known and becomes a problem.   If Cadet Major Jones (the Cadet Commander) is dating Cadet Captain Smith and it's not causing problems with favoritism, insubordination, etc, then it's not hurting anything.    If it becomes an issue, then you deal with it.   Same if Cadet Smith is a Cadet Airman who just joined a while ago.

If Cadet Jones is in line to become the Cadet Commander and you think that the relationship might cause issues, then you let Cadet Jones know that getting and keeping the position is dependent on it not being the cause of issues.    If that happens, you fix it.


Obviously you cannot (and should not) regulate what Cadets do on their own time.   But you can certainly can (and should) mitigate any detrimental effects on the Unit.   

Well said/explained.

I'll add another scenario I've seen before that needs to be handled carefully...

If two potential/new Cadets join a unit and are open about the fact that they are dating, then a quick explanation should be provided that once they are at a CAP function or in uniform, any 'relationship' is to be put aside and they must behave as if they were any other Cadet.

While this would often seem straightforward, I've seen times where it was left unexplained and so the 'couple' claimed the policy was never explained to them when a SM later confronted them about their behavior. Sometimes, a bit of proactive problem-solving can be helpful.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Eclipse on April 08, 2009, 06:17:43 AM
Quote from: Earhart1971 on April 08, 2009, 04:26:18 AM
CAP and off duty time is seperate. What is the point of CAP trying to expand liability to CAP or a Squadron Commander, after or off duty, away from Civil Air Patrol?

There is no way a Squadron Commander can control two Cadets with Drivers licenses from driving away from a meeting and then having a date. How you going to stop that? Again, Common Sense.

The above is not against the rules, however if it happens to be illegal because of the cadets' ages (i.e. one's 14 and one's 18, etc.), and the Squadron Commander finds out, different deal - held responsible for reporting it both inside and outside CAP in many states.

My point was not the specific situation, but the fact that that the bright line people believe exists between CAP "on" and "off" duty time, is not as bright and clear as they think it is.

Most examples would take this thread off-topic.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: Pingree1492 on April 08, 2009, 06:04:54 PM
Quote from: Eclipse on April 08, 2009, 06:17:43 AM
My point was not the specific situation, but the fact that that the bright line people believe exists between CAP "on" and "off" duty time, is not as bright and clear as they think it is.

^+1

If you are an adult (cadet or senior), holding a leadership position within your squadron (but especially if you're a senior), then you are a "person in a place of trust".  If you are dating a younger cadet, and things go south, then you could be facing some very serious charges, with potential for hefty prison time. 

Here's a recent example.  I don't know anything other than this person was a former cadet and is no longer in CAP, as I was not involved in any way in this other than reading the article, and it's not in my squadron.  I'm not putting this link on here to debate what happened, as there is still an investigation going on, and there is no other information available, so please, please, please, don't go down that road. 

Just take a look at the headline- how would YOU like to see it in your local paper, eh?  My blood ran cold when I saw it- yours probably will too.  http://www.dailycamera.com/news/2009/mar/13/former-civil-air-patrol-officer-accused-sexually-a/

Tread carefully out there, and be sure to report properly- you'll regret it if you don't.
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: USADOD on April 08, 2009, 07:04:29 PM
Technically it was impossible for him to be a Lieutenant at 20, as this is the age of flight officer transition grades. But he has brought shame to his squadron and his morals are questionable. I'm glad to see that CAP put CPPT in place for this type of situation.

Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: cap235629 on April 08, 2009, 11:30:47 PM
Quote from: USADOD on April 08, 2009, 07:04:29 PM
Technically it was impossible for him to be a Lieutenant at 20,

Uh wrong, FO is not required, can be a cadet until 21st birthday.

The article is poorly written.  He was a CADET officer in a CADET squadron
Title: Re: Cadets Dating
Post by: USADOD on April 09, 2009, 04:02:57 AM
Quote from: cap235629 on April 08, 2009, 11:30:47 PM
Quote from: USADOD on April 08, 2009, 07:04:29 PM
Technically it was impossible for him to be a Lieutenant at 20,

Uh wrong, FO is not required, can be a cadet until 21st birthday.

The article is poorly written.  He was a CADET officer in a CADET squadron

Based on the information given.  ;D but thanks for the update.