UDF SQTR

[Hill CAP]

Hi

I am working on getting my squadron UDF Team qualified and will be doing the hands on training in the next couple of meetings.

I have a problem with getting the Airport Ramp Check task done as the person that is our contact at the airport is out of state for 4 months on business and until he gets back I can not gain access to using the ramp for this task.

Any suggestions on how to complete this task another way. we meet at a High School

[JoeTomasone]

In theory you could simulate this with cars in the parking lot of the high school.   Assign people to play the role of the FBO manager, etc.   Apply the same skills, but look for a car by license plate instead of a plane.  Make some faux records to search.

[Eclipse]

Hi

I am working on getting my squadron UDF Team qualified and will be doing the hands on training in the next couple of meetings.

I have a problem with getting the Airport Ramp Check task done as the person that is our contact at the airport is out of state for 4 months on business and until he gets back I can not gain access to using the ramp for this task.

Any suggestions on how to complete this task another way. we meet at a High School

So there's only one airport in the entire state and its closed because the only guy who works there left?
I knew GA was in trouble, but didn't realize how bad things were.   

Hint:  Call someone else, or go to another airport.

[Hill CAP]

Hi

I am working on getting my squadron UDF Team qualified and will be doing the hands on training in the next couple of meetings.

I have a problem with getting the Airport Ramp Check task done as the person that is our contact at the airport is out of state for 4 months on business and until he gets back I can not gain access to using the ramp for this task.

Any suggestions on how to complete this task another way. we meet at a High School

So there's only one airport in the entire state and its closed because the only guy who works there left?
I knew GA was in trouble, but didn't realize how bad things were.   

Hint:  Call someone else, or go to another airport.

No its not a problem for me but I have the seniors who are the well we are volunteers you can't make me which is true I can't.

Our closest airport outside of the one here is 45 minutes away and none of my seniors are going to drive 45 minutes unless CAP pays for them to go.

[Eclipse]

Our closest airport outside of the one here is 45 minutes away and none of my seniors are going to drive 45 minutes unless CAP pays for them to go.

45 minutes?  Seriously?  There are members in my wing who drive 3 hours one way for a staff night at wing.

Sounds like some time with the Attitude Adjustment Stick is needed.

Or wait 4 months...

[Hill CAP]

Our closest airport outside of the one here is 45 minutes away and none of my seniors are going to drive 45 minutes unless CAP pays for them to go.

45 minutes?  Seriously?  There are members in my wing who drive 3 hours one way for a staff night at wing.

Sounds like some time with the Attitude Adjustment Stick is needed.

Or wait 4 months...

Yes seriously. I mean I understand where you are coming from when I was in VAWG and on Group Staff it was a 5.5 hour drive every other week for Group Staff Meetings not a problem for me.

Yes the closest airport to us is Craig Field in Jacksonville or Ormond Beach both at 30 - 45 mins away and as I said the Seniors I have refuse to drive anywhere unless CAP will pay for the Gas outside of normal meetings.

[ßτε]

Might I suggest arranging the training at another airport for those who are willing to drive 45 minutes. Those who are not willing can wait 4 months and arrange their own training.

[heliodoc]

That Wing got a credit card for those fancy white Caravans or 15 pax vans?

I understand some of the Come and Pay silliness of CAP, but with that "new Wing Banker" system and  many other organizations having credit cards for CAP training and this would fall under training...

Otherwise, I would simulate the SQTR's...nothing saying u can not simulate.  Then I would worry about the gas and the commentary here.

Some of those Seniors do have a point.  The other point is... Mr Tomasones' point right on..simulate!!

[arajca]

Simulation is fine - unless the Task Evaluation calls for the real deal. SQTRs merely list the tasks and provide a convienent place to collect signatures. The Task Evaluations tell you whot is needed to complete the task, how it is scored, and what set-up (if any) is needed.

[RADIOMAN015]

Our closest airport outside of the one here is 45 minutes away and none of my seniors are going to drive 45 minutes unless CAP pays for them to go.

45 minutes?  Seriously?  There are members in my wing who drive 3 hours one way for a staff night at wing.

Sounds like some time with the Attitude Adjustment Stick is needed.

Or wait 4 months...

Well, I think most "volunteers" join local units so that they can train locally. Of course the definition of "local" will vary greatly by each members' definition.   I would the unit should look for someone else to help them at the local airport to complete the training, rather than drive 45 minutes.  Remember that is 90 minutes round trip plus training/evaluation time.  Added that to a full day of employment work (which might also include considerable travel time) and you may be talking about some fatigue even before you start the training.

In my opinion more emphasis seems to be placed on pilot/aircrew fatigue than ground team/mission support base teams fatigue.  Basically that's the same reason I won't drive for over 1.50  hours to a mission base for any training/exercise.   One has to plan the safe return home AFTER the exercise is completed (which adds another 8 hrs to the duty day, so one is on duty for 11 hours).   Any night time training may result in further reduction of travel time.   
     
RM 

[RiverAux]

Basically that's the same reason I won't drive for over 1.50  hours to a mission base for any training/exercise.   One has to plan the safe return home AFTER the exercise is completed (which adds another 8 hrs to the duty day, so one is on duty for 11 hours).   

Camp out. 

[Eclipse]

Serve anyway you want, at whatever level you want, and expect the same from your members, but 45 minutes?  That's less than the commute most people make 1-way in my metro area.

What everyone is missing here is that it'll be the SET who ultimately determines whether a "simulation" is acceptable. I would suggest you discuss with your Group CC (or Wing staff) a coordinated effort with another unit on a meeting night or weekend, rather than trying to slip something by in a parking lot.  I'm all for expediency, but just as in doing the compass course in a parking lot, there's a lot to be said for real, hands-on experience.

[heliodoc]

Compass work and ramp check are two different animals.

If CAP can not accept simulation of a car as an "airplane" to sim a ramp check....well........ there HAS to be some SET's out there with some common sense...

Some folks at airports are not always there at CAP's beck and call to do "CAP Ramp Check" training and some do not want cadets and senior members crawling around personal aircraft...whhaddya suppose all those CAP Corp Acft are for ??  Best be burnin fuel to support CAP trainin!

Compass work in a parking lot?  Maybe to get cardinal directions set down and why not just to get the handling down.  What not get a map topo or otherwise, to get a map oriented to TN / MN..whatever.. then take it that training to the boonies...that is what we have done and the cadets enjoy the break from the blues and testing syndrome

Why make a production out of things.  Get the basics down pat and first and then haul out to the woods to do the real thing.  Who is sliiping by anything in parking lot for map orientation. 

Some folks get carried away by Hollywood training and nothing practical when time and funds are at  a minimum. Trainer can train in parking lot or in the "field."

Simulated ramp checks in a parking lot using cars as acft?  Why not?  CAP can be creative.  Some of the task books are pretty weak on how things get done.  We in wildland fire, use sand table exercises locally to include simulated fire runs and positioning of equipment, by using toy trucks, airplanes,helos and topography on a sand table built on with a 4X8 sheet of plywood and some 2X6 "walls."

So again, What is wrong with CAP being creative,huh?  Do it in a way that gets a point across, saves time and petrol dollars.  This stuff DOES NOT require some SOOOOPER SET from a CAP Wing or Group with razor sharp starched BDU's to conduct any exercise. Some thinking outside the traditional "CAP box" is seriously needed.  Hands on experience can happen in a parking lot, CAP van, and the very traditional stop in the boonies.

Yep ...The fatigue factor can be a very real thing and OUGHT to be considered by those CAPer Safety types who are doing and "enforcing" the "duty day" to the letter!

[Short Field]

If you are not trained and evaluated according to the task guide, you are not trained and your evaluation was just pencil whipped.  RTFM

[heliodoc]

^^^

O'RLY??

So adding a sand table or simulating is pencil whipping? 

As far as I can detect in the (RTFM), it does not say in the condition statement the where (geographic location specific)  or whether or not it can be simulated such as orienting a map does specifically say where...but one can argue all they want, it has to be done in the woods

That can be done in a parking lot....look around there could be anumber of topo features in town and sometimes not

Letsse here Task O-0902 Exercise Universal Precautions

Think you need to drive 256.7890 miles to get an SQTR signed off?

That is where the joke in CAP "training" is ........ Is location pencil whipping, Short Field? 

We in the "RM" did hip pocket training any time anywhere and got our tasks done...some in the woods, some not

CAP training needs folks who are creative in putting the scenarios together....not worrying about what is pencil whipped

Parking lot training or training in the woods is not an integrity issue.......it's folks over analyzing EVERY little thing in CAP and worrying about integrity issues....Worry about the training, Evaluate the training, Improve the training, Make small subtle scenario changes to the training to keep it exciting and fresh, Make and be available to instruct SET on how to train, Mentor to sharpen skills

CAP worries too much rather than really sending people through Instructors schools, so therefore the so called STANDARDIZATION of CAP training varies wildly and set CAPers into INTEGRITY and PENCIL WHIP orbit

All the training I have conducted as a SET have been done according to the task guide.  I LOOKED and RTFM and concluded where I do not need to pull a logistics train to conduct training, assemble 84 CAP vans, worry about EVERY little CAP INTEGRITY issue, we moved on with training

[CASH172]

Yes the closest airport to us is Craig Field in Jacksonville or Ormond Beach both at 30 - 45 mins away and as I said the Seniors I have refuse to drive anywhere unless CAP will pay for the Gas outside of normal meetings.

Is there a reason why it has to be done at an airport with a CAP aircraft located there.  I'm sure things can be arranged with Cecil, Fernandina Beach, Herlong, Keystone, St. Augustine, Flagerl, Gainsville, or Palatka.  All of them are GA airports and I'm sure one of them can be utilized.  All of these airports are closer than 30-45 minutes away based on what you said. 

[JoeTomasone]

If you are not trained and evaluated according to the task guide, you are not trained and your evaluation was just pencil whipped.  RTFM

Yes, let's RTFM, shall we?

O-0420
PERFORM AN AIRFIELD SEARCH (RAMP CHECK)

Evaluation Preparation

Setup: Prepare a diagram of an airfield (or conduct the test at an actual airfield). Prepare a description of a
missing aircraft and its pilot as well as the incident commander's name and phone number. The team leader
may use any equipment in his field gear (including this guide).

Brief Team Leader: Verbally brief the team leader on the missing aircraft. Tell him that he has a ground team
consisting of himself, one other senior (GTM qualified) and 5 cadets (3 GTM, 2 Trainee). Tell the team leader
to describe, in sequence how he will search the airport. Tell him that you will play the role of the FBO. After
he has described the search, tell him he did not find the plane, and ask him what he would do now.

No actual airfield required.

[Rotorhead]

Hi

I am working on getting my squadron UDF Team qualified and will be doing the hands on training in the next couple of meetings.

I have a problem with getting the Airport Ramp Check task done as the person that is our contact at the airport is out of state for 4 months on business and until he gets back I can not gain access to using the ramp for this task.

Any suggestions on how to complete this task another way. we meet at a High School

So there's only one airport in the entire state and its closed because the only guy who works there left?
I knew GA was in trouble, but didn't realize how bad things were.   

Hint:  Call someone else, or go to another airport.

No its not a problem for me but I have the seniors who are the well we are volunteers you can't make me which is true I can't.

Our closest airport outside of the one here is 45 minutes away and none of my seniors are going to drive 45 minutes unless CAP pays for them to go.

Members who say this need to be pruned from the ranks and replaced with members who actually care and want to work. I'd rather have five good, solid, reliable members than  25 who play the "I'm a volunteer..." card whenever they don't want to do something.

[heliodoc]

I'd like to have a CAP that had a real training program after 30 years and one that would be STANDARDIZED

I'd like to have a CAP that could be modeled after other volunteer organizations

I'd like to have a CAP that would give those squadrons the 5 solid members rather than the 25 pulling the volunteer card

I'd like for CAP to be a paid first response organization with one uniform

I'd like CAP to be more in tune with the real world

AWWWW,  who am I kidding?

[Rotorhead]

I'd like to have a CAP that had a real training program after 30 years and one that would be STANDARDIZED

I'd like to have a CAP that could be modeled after other volunteer organizations

I'd like to have a CAP that would give those squadrons the 5 solid members rather than the 25 pulling the volunteer card

I'd like for CAP to be a paid first response organization with one uniform

I'd like CAP to be more in tune with the real world

AWWWW,  who am I kidding?

I have served in more than one unit that simply left the lazy people behind and focused on the active members who wanted to work.  The card-pullers eventually fade away.

Of course, your goal has to be to do the missions of CAP, not to show how many members you can have in your squadron, for this to work.

[Eclipse]

I'd like to have a CAP that had a real training program after 30 years and one that would be STANDARDIZED

I'd like to have a CAP that could be modeled after other volunteer organizations

I'd like to have a CAP that would give those squadrons the 5 solid members rather than the 25 pulling the volunteer card

I'd like for CAP to be a paid first response organization with one uniform

I'd like CAP to be more in tune with the real world

I'd like for someone who obviously hates CAP so much and has nothing better to do than drop trolls on this message board to just quit CAP and go bother someone else.

[heliodoc]

^^

Got u spooled up , Eclipse?

I seem to to do pretty well in CAP and do not over analyze all the little issues in CAP

AGAIN CAP is a civilian VOLUNTEER organization.  We get what we get and UNTIL we are the military, have people on the same sheets of music nationwide (pipe dream).  No one is ever going to be happy, myself included.

Lotso experts to gain knowledge from here on CAPTalk especially all the interpretations of SQTR's, Integrity, and the ever reliable RTFM which plenty-o-folk here seem not to get

I am still having fun, here, Eclipse, oh Supreme CAP Commander!!

[Eclipse]

You can answer the questions or provide information without every comment you make being a political comment on the
state of CAP, and how every other organization in the world has their act together better than CAP.

There's simply no point to it, in many cases you're simply incorrect, and your constant use of the wildfire service as
some sort of shining example doesn't even hold up.  Thank you to PBS for re-running their special on fires this weekend,
which showed that these hard-working, paid professionals have the same challenges of proficiency (i.e. we're rusty), logistics (where's the stuff we need), manpower (we don't have enough people), and command and coordination (left hand and right hand don't know what they are doing), and these are paid, experienced professionals.

CAP does a pretty good job with the resources the have filling their personal niche, and we don't need naysayers like you
with an ax to grind throwing up our limitations at every question.

[heliodoc]

Yep

In wildfire we have our problems as you say

Am i simply incorrect?   Cite Please! As  I see there are plenty of folks around here do not have a firm grasp of the SQTRs and all the pro CAP SAR think they got a corner on integrity...plenty of organizations have the problem.

There are more than a few folks pointing out to CAPers that they themselves need to RTFM.  Is that naysaying. Or does CAP just say it OK for "interpretations" to become lack of RTFM and progress into the slapping the Integrity card.

I have RTFM and offered a few suggestions. 

Apparently CAPers can not take a few or more than a few hard knocks at their beloved organization.  I do know plenty of volunteer orgs get their knocks.  CAP got my interest because of the inordinate amount of time and bellyachin about all the ICS courses.  They (CAP) were JUST like some of the VFD's WHINING about why and the time needed to do "all that stuff."

CAP really needs some in organizational criticism....after all its the only AAR CAP really is good at functioning at!!  'Cuz I do not see too many AAR's on LLIS.gov yet

CAP has not changed in 30 yrs and like I said I still train folks to the"taskbook" standard.  You can keep calling me a naysayer, Eclipse,

Sometimes you take things about CAP waay too personal

[Eclipse]

Perhaps you are confusing "CAPTalk" with "CAP".

As has been pointed out regularly, the demographic and level or minutia here do not reflect the general membership population.

[heliodoc]

No confusion here

[Short Field]

No actual airfield required.

Then he has no training problem.  Just follow the task guide and you will train to standard.