Firearm training

[flydoggy]

Does CAP allow training on firearms for cadets and seniors?Why?

[JC004]

CAPR 52-16 provides all of the information on firearms training.  Why what?

[Hawk200]

Not for any type of CAP function. Some courses are allowed, but only under certain conditions.

[Airrace]

 There will be no firearms, air guns, paint guns or any device that could be used as a weapon at any cadet activity. The only exceptions to this policy are:
(1) Deactivated Firearms. Cadets may use facsimile or deactivated firearms only as part of an honor guard or color guard. A deactivated firearm is one that will prevent the insertion of ammunition or the firing of a weapon. A facsimile is a copy that is not capable of firing ammunition.
(2) Firearm Training. CAP cadets may participate in firearm training if the wing commander approves the training facility and sponsoring personnel or agency in advance and in writing. For additional guidance, see CAPR 900-3, Firearms: Assistance to Law Enforcement Officials. Training must be sponsored and supervised by one of the following:
(a) Qualified military small arms range personnel.
(b) Local law enforcement officers qualified as firearms instructors.
(c) Personnel of the National Rifle Association, National Skeet Shooting Association or Amateur Trap Shooting Association qualified as firearms instructors.




Here is the link to 52-16:

http://members.gocivilairpatrol.com/media/cms/R052_016_9D037830938CC.pdf

[Eclipse]

And CAP, per se, doesn't provide it, there are simply provisions for allowing it on either host's (i.e. military, NRA) or unit's nickel.

[Major Carrales]

I imagine firearms training would be provided to cadets as a familiarity with the weapons for "safety's" sake.  Better for a young person be trained in the proper use of a weapon by trained professionals (as described in the regulations) than to toy around with weapons haphazardly.

My introduction to weaponry came from parents and grandparents on at the ranch.  They taught us respect for all firearms (as in how to respect a weapon for what it is, a potentially deadly tool of hunting or self-defense). 

These days I have heard of students purchasing weapons from friends in the alleys of the town and then depend on films and television to teach them their usage. What ends up happening is that these youth end up with improperly maintained weapons, poor skills and, even worse, the "courage" of a person with a gun mixed with the chutzpah of youth.

[jimmydeanno]

Why?  Firearms training provides an excellent training environment to learn discipline and attention to detail.  There is a great opportunity to show marked progress and achievement.  Plus, its fun.

[Johnny Yuma]

Why?  Firearms training provides an excellent training environment to learn discipline and attention to detail.  There is a great opportunity to show marked progress and achievement.  Plus, its fun.

Not to mention that much of what cadets learn about the theories of flight also apply to ballistics as well.

[majdomke]

I imagine firearms training would be provided to cadets as a familiarity with the weapons for "safety's" sake.  Better for a young person be trained in the proper use of a weapon by trained professionals (as described in the regulations) than to toy around with weapons haphazardly.

My introduction to weaponry came from parents and grandparents on at the ranch.  They taught us respect for all firearms (as in how to respect a weapon for what it is, a potentially deadly tool of hunting or self-defense). 

These days I have heard of students purchasing weapons from friends in the alleys of the town and then depend on films and television to teach them their usage. What ends up happening is that these youth end up with improperly maintained weapons, poor skills and, even worse, the "courage" of a person with a gun mixed with the chutzpah of youth.

ahhh.... you've used the forbidden "W" word... at least that's my NRA instructor side talking. We teach firearms training, not "W" training. There is a difference of course. In the training our squadron does, we follow the NRA Rifle Course and then upon completion are now working on the Winchester/NRA Light-Rifle Competition Program. Out of 32 cadets, I have about 14 on the marksmanship team. Of course having a wing commanders blessing is essential unless you are dual-charted with BSA. The hardest part, aside from approval, is finding somewhere that will allow you to practice (free preferably) and then having someone qualified. CAWG had an NRA Instructors Course at our last Cadet Program Conference and this really helped get me going in the right direction. I came away with invaluable info on how the program worked, was fully qualified, and got it off the ground within 45 days. We were lucky enough to find a local sportsman club that sponsored us by providing free range time, use of club .22's and free use of ammo and targets. What a blessing this has become. It's one of those added activities that can certainly seal the deal with perspective cadets. We joined the CMP and NRA as official clubs too. I'm happy to provide further info if needed...

[JohnKachenmeister]

I am also an NEA-trained instructor, but one trained by NRA's Law Enforcement Activities Division.  We still call them "Weapons."  I have heard that NRA hunter-safety side instructors avoid the use of the "W" word, but I find that disingenuous.

We train our cadets to march like troops, talk like troops, and do all kinds of other things like troops.  We do this so that when they become troops, they will have a leg up in important troop skills.

Why teach them to march, which will NOT save their lives or the lives of their comrades, unless we also teach them to shoot, which will do so?  If teaching a 15-year old the fundamentals of marksmanship makes him better able to absorb the lessons of combat shooting at 18, we have done our job.

Our job is to prepare him to be of service... to prepare him to do HIS job!

[majdomke]

Simply put... because CAP's function is not to train cadets to kill. Teaching self-discipline and teamwork are. If we start billing it as weapons training then good luck getting the wing cc to approve or the public for that matter. A weapon is used for self-defense or offensively. Precisely why we shoot paper targets with round bullseyes and not silhouettes.

[majdomke]

p.s. I now owe my team 50 cents for saying the "W" word twice...

[ol'fido]

One solution to the firearms training dilema is the use of EST or Engagement Simulator Training. We have used this for the past 4 years at our summer encampment. Unfortunately, this year the IL ARNG didn't have a trainer available so we weren't able to do it this time. However, next year, if a trainer is available, we will again be offering this activity. This lets the cadets learn something and the only cost is a little electricity.

[JohnKachenmeister]

Simply put... because CAP's function is not to train cadets to kill. Teaching self-discipline and teamwork are. If we start billing it as weapons training then good luck getting the wing cc to approve or the public for that matter. A weapon is used for self-defense or offensively. Precisely why we shoot paper targets with round bullseyes and not silhouettes.

That is the disingenuous part.

A rifle is designed with one purpose.  To kill.  A .22 rifle is still a rifle, and cadets need to be aware of the power of even the smallest cartridge.  They also have to understand that bringing fire upon enemies of the United States is a noble and honorable activity.  Bringing fire on innocent persons is unacceptable, and will net them the most severe punishments.

[Major Lord]

Right, with firearms training, we are just teaching Cadets  to shoot....we can let the DI's teach them how to kill after we have done a good job with the basics of marksmanship. First things first!  After all, this isn't something that they should have to learn off the street or from movies! ( They would all be turning their "boom-sticks" sideways and calling each other "dog". This would be unacceptable and not meet the encampment standard!

Major Lord
p.s. Raise your hand if a firearm has ever saved your life!

[cap235629]

RAISES HAND.

And also have been on the receiving end=NOT FUN

[Trung Si Ma]

p.s. Raise your hand if a firearm has ever saved your life!

Do I raise both hands if it has happened more than once?  What do I raise for three or more times?

[majdomke]

RAISES HAND.

And also have been on the receiving end=NOT FUN

ditto

[majdomke]

A .22 rifle is still a rifle, and cadets need to be aware of the power of even the smallest cartridge.  They also have to understand that bringing fire upon enemies of the United States is a noble and honorable activity.  Bringing fire on innocent persons is unacceptable, and will net them the most severe punishments.

All part of the mandatory NRA training. The three safety rules are gone over at each and every training session and practice.

[Major Lord]

The NRA training course is not mandatory, we do have a couple of other options. The NRA course has little to do with shooting to live, but its good groundwork.

Major Lord

[RRLE]

A rifle is designed with one purpose.  To kill.

That isn't true. A rifle is designed to deliver a bullet to a target. That target could be an inanimate objecte or a living thing. It is the shooter that decides how to use the rifle. Some rifles are designed specifically for target shooting. They would not be any reasonable person's choice to take hunting or as a primary self-defense weapon.

A rfile is a firearm. A weapon is anything that can be used for self-defense, hunting or combat and is not specific to rfiles or firemarms.

I see no problem teaching firearm skills to cadets. As others have posted, I see a 'Disaster of Epic Proportions' if word gets out that CAP is giving weapons training to Cadets - aka minors.

[Thom]

A rifle is designed with one purpose.  To kill.

That isn't true. A rifle is designed to deliver a bullet to a target. That target could be an inanimate objecte or a living thing. It is the shooter that decides how to use the rifle. Some rifles are designed specifically for target shooting. They would not be any reasonable person's choice to take hunting or as a primary self-defense weapon.

A rfile is a firearm. A weapon is anything that can be used for self-defense, hunting or combat and is not specific to rfiles or firemarms.

I see no problem teaching firearm skills to cadets. As others have posted, I see a 'Disaster of Epic Proportions' if word gets out that CAP is giving weapons training to Cadets - aka minors.

I agree, to pretty much all the points made above by RRLE.

In particular, on the subject of the 'Public Perception' of CAP providing training, whether you call it 'Weapons' or 'Firearms' or 'Marksmanship' to minors, I do have to point out:  the various JROTC organizations used to provide this training in the High Schools of America.

Used To.

The overall public acceptance of firearms training of minors has fallen dramatically since Vietnam, and I wouldn't expect it to be a big PR/PA high point for CAP now.

I don't think it ought to be that way, but I am a realist about these matters.

CAP has enough trouble with lack of publicity, and despite what wonks will say, bad publicity is NOT better than no publicity.

Thom Hamilton

[Rotorhead]

I see no problem teaching firearm skills to cadets. As others have posted, I see a 'Disaster of Epic Proportions' if word gets out that CAP is giving weapons training to Cadets - aka minors.

When you substitute a "nice" word for a "realistic" one, that's PC, by definition.

I thought we didn't like political correctness.

[Major Lord]

Like it or not, CAP cadets are Air Force (aux) cadets, they wear the uniforms, they walk-the-walk, they talk the talk. The PC crowd already hates the military. Fortunately though, who gives a rodental gluteus maximus what they think? I think its safe to say that the Cadet program is shrinking, not in part due to the left-handed anti-military sentiments of some adults in CAP. Our lads and laddies did not join CAP because they really, really , love Power Point presentations, they did so because at some level of participation, they want to be members of the brotherhood of arms. If they loath the military, and hate and revile the people who have sworn a holy oath to defend the Constitution, they would be more at home working as a community organizer somewhere.  Most cadets know full-well what the Air Force does for a living ( See; Killing things and blowing ....stuff...up)

This parsing of whether rifles are designed to kill, make holes, or for use as bludgeons is moot. You can use a rifle for any lawful purpose you want, but thats not why military cadet programs teach riflery. Now, not every cadet may wish to be a combatant, and if I have prayers left in me, I would hope that the need for this would never arise again, but if its required, a would rather have the finest young men and women in the free world trained in the use of arms against the day the fecal matter  once again strikes the ventilators.

Major Lord

[Cadet Dan]

 :clap: Sir, those were some wonderful words. As a possible point of interest I have researched the UK's Airforce Cadet pragram on youtube and it seems to me that they do a fair amount of firearms training on their L85's and whatnot. Also, firearm training in CAP would teach firearm safety. If a Cadet stumbled upon a firearm would they know how to handle the situation safely and maturely? I agree that firearms can be used as weapons, but are pocket knives not in the same class? A knife can be useful and teach lessons in survival etc, but if used in such a way it can injure or kill just like a firearm. Just because a pocket knife has the ability to become a weapon, must that meanthat it should not be allowed on ground teams or whenever a knife might be used in CAP? Now if you will take that principle to firearms training. Sure the skills learned can be used to kill, but they also teach attention to detail and safety. Another point of interest, if someone joins the Airforce and enters a postiton nothing to do with small arms, such as aircraft maintnenance or cyber defense ( according to Airforce personel I spoke with ) everyone regardless of their position has to take firearm training and stay current with their marksmanship. Just because a Cadet might not want to join the military doesn't mean that useful skills won't be learned.

[Eclipse]

Also, firearm training in CAP would teach firearm safety. If a Cadet stumbled upon a firearm would they know how to handle the situation safely and maturely?

Which part of "leave it alone and dial 911" is difficult to impart to anyone?

[Thom]

Also, firearm training in CAP would teach firearm safety. If a Cadet stumbled upon a firearm would they know how to handle the situation safely and maturely?

Which part of "leave it alone and dial 911" is difficult to impart to anyone?

It's not that difficult, but it just doesn't get done.  There is a reason that the NRA has to run the Eddie Eagle Safety Programs.

There are parents who won't speak a word about 'sex' to their children, and there are also parents who would never dream of saying the word 'gun' to their children.  Not even to say, as Eclipse put it above: "Leave it alone and dial 911."

So, not difficult, but not something we should assume has been imparted to anyone.

Personally, I'm in favor of making many of these 'common sense, real-life' things mandatory in high school:

How does a Credit Card or Checking Account Work?  (Note: some school systems are already including this...)
How to plan a Budget for a Home
How does one Get a Job?  (Interviewing, dress code, punctuality...)
Firearms Safety
Emergency Preparedness for the Home
etc., etc., etc.

Thom Hamilton

[wuzafuzz]

Also, firearm training in CAP would teach firearm safety. If a Cadet stumbled upon a firearm would they know how to handle the situation safely and maturely?

Which part of "leave it alone and dial 911" is difficult to impart to anyone?

That's fine when it's age appropriate, but at some point people ought to know how to make them safe instead of always relying on "someone else" to take care of things for them.  My kids learned firearms safety pretty early because you just never know what will happen at someone elses house. 

All the efforts in the world to control where your kids go, and who they hang out with, go right out the window when they get wheels or have friends with wheels. 

Firearms training does something else worthy, IMHO:  Done right, it removes the unreasonable fear of guns instilled in many people by the constant media assault portraying firearms and their owners in a negative light.  It's not indoctrination, just exposure to the facts of safe handling and legal considerations.  Everything else is opinion.  Let them decide after that.

[Smithsonia]

I agree with Wuzafuzz;
I think having firearms training is important for Cadets - so that they understand these implements do NOT have power in their lives. These devices are mechanical tools only. My rifles and shotguns can be used on paper targets and never human flesh.

These items are to be treated, not as objects of desire, but as responsibilities in whose care you have been trusted.

What these things can do is big medicine. On the range treat them with respect. In the gun case, forget about them until a rifle match or hunting season. In this way, my sons had control, exercised proper precautions, and never related to them in the prevalent fantasies of Hollywood.

Guns are tools or objects. Never let them be more in a Cadet's (kids) head. Do not make them Taboo. That will make them sexy, forbidden, exciting. I am both a CMP and NRA instructor. There are additional items of self reliance but not germane to the current postings.

[majdomke]

The NRA training course is not mandatory, we do have a couple of other options. The NRA course has little to do with shooting to live, but its good groundwork.

Major Lord

I was referring to the requirements in our SQ and BSA.

[Major Lord]

Roger that. I have no problems with the NRA ( except they are a little soft on gun rights.....) their training curricula is perfect for cadets, and of course, let us not forget the value of NRA bling to be worn on the cadet uniform! I think it would be awesome to have Squadrons competing in three position matches against each other ( maybe we could challenge ACA?)


Major Lord
Remember, when seconds count, 911 is only minutes away!

[Gunner C]

RAISES HAND.

And also have been on the receiving end=NOT FUN

ditto

For me too!  But I don't look at them as having saved my life, the firearms helped me get the job done - destroy the enemy target.  My life was incidental to it.

[Flying Pig]

Roger that. I have no problems with the NRA ( except they are a little soft on gun rights.....) their training curricula is perfect for cadets, and of course, let us not forget the value of NRA bling to be worn on the cadet uniform! I think it would be awesome to have Squadrons competing in three position matches against each other ( maybe we could challenge ACA?)

Major Lord
Remember, when seconds count, 911 is only minutes away!

HAAAAAA...Ive never heard that before :clap:

[majdomke]

Roger that. I have no problems with the NRA ( except they are a little soft on gun rights.....) their training curricula is perfect for cadets, and of course, let us not forget the value of NRA bling to be worn on the cadet uniform! I think it would be awesome to have Squadrons competing in three position matches against each other ( maybe we could challenge ACA?)

We are going to start  competing against 4-H and local JROTC that practices at our range. I'd love to see CAP invited to compete in the CMP nationals against the JROTC crowd.

[Flying Pig]

As long as Marine JROTC isnt there......everyone else might have a shot a second place.

[Spike]

At Encampment is fine.  Provide me the CAP reg that spells out how to conduct rifle/pistol training and I will be the first to start it up as a unit activity!

[davidsinn]

At Encampment is fine.  Provide me the CAP reg that spells out how to conduct rifle/pistol training and I will be the first to start it up as a unit activity!

52-16

1-4. Safety Policies Related To The Cadet Program.
c. Weapons. There will be no firearms, air guns, paint guns or any device that could be used as a weapon at any cadet activity. The only exceptions to this policy are:
(1) Deactivated Firearms. Cadets may use facsimile or deactivated firearms only as part of an honor guard or color guard. A deactivated firearm is one that will prevent the insertion of ammunition or the firing of a weapon. A facsimile is a copy that is not capable of firing ammunition.
(2) Firearm Training. CAP cadets may participate in firearm training if the wing commander approves the training facility and sponsoring personnel or agency in advance and in writing. For additional guidance, see CAPR 900-3, Firearms: Assistance to Law Enforcement Officials. Training must be sponsored and supervised by one of the following:
(a) Qualified military small arms range personnel.
(b) Local law enforcement officers qualified as firearms instructors.
(c) Personnel of the National Rifle Association, National Skeet Shooting Association or Amateur Trap Shooting Association qualified as firearms instructors.

[majdomke]

At Encampment is fine.  Provide me the CAP reg that spells out how to conduct rifle/pistol training and I will be the first to start it up as a unit activity!

There really is none because the regs only give the rules. That was the reason I took the NRA instructor course and then teamed up with a local NRA/CMP club. The club has been instrumental in helping supply the equipment, supplies and even additional instructors to get our program going. It help to look around your area and call local shooting ranges about youth training programs. If you need help, let me know.

[Airrace]

I agree with Wuzafuzz, Smithsonia and a few other that having firearms training is important for Cadets - so they that they understand the basic use and safety procedures in all firearms. Without some sore of supervised training I think we could have more fatilties with firearms then we have now.

[Spike]

At Encampment is fine.  Provide me the CAP reg that spells out how to conduct rifle/pistol training and I will be the first to start it up as a unit activity!

There really is none because the regs only give the rules. That was the reason I took the NRA instructor course and then teamed up with a local NRA/CMP club. The club has been instrumental in helping supply the equipment, supplies and even additional instructors to get our program going. It help to look around your area and call local shooting ranges about youth training programs. If you need help, let me know.

How did that turn out?  Do the Cadets get a patch or certificate from the NRA.  I have to honestly be honest and say that my Cadets would most likely want something in return for doing firearm training/ competitions.

Does anyone else agree with me.....that Cadets like to get rewarded for doing things that (are in themselves) rewards?  Or am I just not understanding Cadets these days??

[MIKE]

The bling: http://materials.nrahq.org/go/products.aspx?cat=Medals%20and%20Bars

The full packet.   Can't wear the patch on the uniform though: http://materials.nrahq.org/go/products.aspx?cat=Skill%20Rating%20Packets

Edited to add the really important bit:

11 Junior National Rifle Association Marksmanship Badge (Earned in accordance with NRA program.) (Cadets only) Men: with the top edge centered on the left pocket flap of the service coat or shirt when worn as an outergarment. Women: in the same position as specialty insignia (above the ribbons and beneath the wings).

[Spike]

^ Wow.  Thanks Mike.  I am going to look into this now. 

[Smithsonia]

Might I suggest CMP Garand Matches:
http://www.odcmp.com/Services/Competitions/john_c_garand_match.htm

Matches are held all over the country and any good rifle club will sponsor several per year.

These matches are held locally. These are held to CMP Military Range Safety Standards and while doing so it usually includes a 1 hour safety lecture, 20 minutes of practicum on the range (safety, protocols, and mechanical operation of the rifle) then 2 plus hours of positional target shooting using Garand M1s, 1903 Springfields, M1 Carbines, Enfield 1917, etc. These matches are military, history, firearms, safety, highly regulated and very engaging.

I usually only invite cadets that have at least a NRA course and some range experience. These rifles kick a bit and the lighter lads can get sore. I've taken several cadets from Wuzafuzz's squadron and they loved it.

When cadets walk away with their target patched with 50 good shots... they are proud and happy as retrievers with a new ball.

[cap235629]

As long as Marine JROTC isnt there......everyone else might have a shot a second place.

I was on our MCJROTC rifle team in High School.  We had an indoor rifle range and armory in the school, in MASSACHUSETTS!

Unfortunately the program was closed after 30 years for lack of membership.  Kids just didn't want to sign up for JROTC anymore.

OBTW, as a result of my training in JROTC I qualified expert with every weapon the Army let me qualify with.......

[JohnKachenmeister]

A .22 rifle is still a rifle, and cadets need to be aware of the power of even the smallest cartridge.  They also have to understand that bringing fire upon enemies of the United States is a noble and honorable activity.  Bringing fire on innocent persons is unacceptable, and will net them the most severe punishments.

All part of the mandatory NRA training. The three safety rules are gone over at each and every training session and practice.

I KNOW the safety rules are discussed.  I think, however, that it is wrong to consider the rifle a piece of sporting equipment.  It IS a weapon, and to separate the fact that rifles are designed as killing devices trivializes their nature. 

I guess my point is that a baseball bat CAN be used as a weapon, but it was not designed as such.  A rifle was designed as a weapon, but under some conditions can be used for sport as well.

[Johnny Yuma]

Might I suggest CMP Garand Matches:
http://www.odcmp.com/Services/Competitions/john_c_garand_match.htm

Matches are held all over the country and any good rifle club will sponsor several per year.

These matches are held locally. These are held to CMP Military Range Safety Standards and while doing so it usually includes a 1 hour safety lecture, 20 minutes of practicum on the range (safety, protocols, and mechanical operation of the rifle) then 2 plus hours of positional target shooting using Garand M1s, 1903 Springfields, M1 Carbines, Enfield 1917, etc. These matches are military, history, firearms, safety, highly regulated and very engaging.

I usually only invite cadets that have at least a NRA course and some range experience. These rifles kick a bit and the lighter lads can get sore. I've taken several cadets from Wuzafuzz's squadron and they loved it.

When cadets walk away with their target patched with 50 good shots... they are proud and happy as retrievers with a new ball.

+100

Trust me, take your cadets to a CMP M1 garand clinic and you'll come back with a van load of ecstatic kids.

The Army Marksmanship Unit, USMC Weapons Training battalion and the All-Guard (NGB) teasm all do some serious recruiting at Camp Perry every year, the home of the National Championships.

AMU is good duty. Guys have been known to serve their entire careers in the AMU. They also do a lot more than shoot matches, like research and development, marksmanship instruction, public affairs and representing the Army.

USMC team is a 3 year billet, but Marines who take National Championships get automatic promotions. IIRC one little gal from Utah took the Interservice matches, the National CMP LEG match and NRA High Woman shooter and made Staff Sergeant before she turned 21!

Air Force and Navy used to have fulltime shooting teams, but now its a voluntary TAD job. Kinda sad.

Camp Perry also provides things like the Small Arms Firing School, where civilians get ran through the entire M16 qualification course. Junior shooters can also attend the 2 day marksmanship clinic held by the USMC.

Special Junior matches, called the Whistler Boy, are set up for 2 man teams of junior to compete against each other. These are held in both smallbore and highpower events.

There's also the rattle battle, 6 man combat match where your 6 man team gets a couple hundred rounds of ammo, engages 8 targets and tries to fire as many bullets into silhouettes as they can from 600 yards away in 60 seconds. Whatever's left is fired from 500, the 300, etc.

I'm really surprised that CAP hasn't done much with this. There's boatloads of JROTC teams up there shooting every year.

[Smithsonia]

Katch;
I couldn't agree Less with your note on "all guns are weapons." Weapon includes intention. Baseball bats, golf clubs, knives have intended uses other than to kill or maim. It is only if you swing for the head when angry is YOUR intention assumed. Guns are the same.

My rifles are for paper targets, only. My shotguns are for game birds. Therefore, I have no intention (to kill or maim) in some of my guns and I have intention attached to others. Murder is an act of intention. The gun is incapable of acquiring intention. Intention is the acts of humans only. That's why guns never go to prison. Only people do.

An officer of the law does not carry a weapon. When he draws his service pistol and announces his intention, "Stop Police!" he is announcing his intention. If a suspect runs from the policeman, then he is obliged to chase, instead of just shooting the guy in the butt. Self Defense caveats aside.

In this case a policeman's sidearm, when worn on the hip, is the same as his badge; "a sign of civil authority." It says that we as a society trust this officer with deadly force. It does not mean he can shoot anyone he dislikes, except under defined and highly particular circumstances. If he screws this up he can go to jail for murder. There are officers serving time right now because they messed this up.

To not know this is to do disservice to the language and to those who serve and protect. There is a very good reason for this. In the Army you can walk up to an enemy and slit his throat, shoot him in the head, or blow him into confetti and it's all War. In a civil society you can NOT walk up and shoot a cop and say, "I was afraid for my life, so I declare the killing of an officer as an act of self defense." Although, it has been tried by defendants except in the case of Claude Dallas killing Bill Pogue and Conley Elms I have never seen it work.

The military is not under the same obligation by the way. They can a do shoot enemies in the back all the day. Rules of engagement caveats aside. Armies operate under a completely different set of rules. Everything they carry that goes bang is a weapon and intent is vested the moment they lock and load.

I teach and train this for anyone who'll listen. There are police, military, and even lawyers who don't understand these differences. Anyone reading this thread can now not declare the same. 

You and I usually agree. We don't on this one.

[Ned]

Ed,

Non concur.

A firearm is not " symbol of authority" for law enforcement officers.  The badge is.

Some law enforcement officers are armed, some are not.  Some are armed sometimes, and not at others.  But they are still law enforcement officers under the law.

And generally speaking, law enforecement officers have no more right to use deadly force than private citizens in the same situation.  Usually to protect their lives or the lives of others.

As a former police officer and a retired Army officer, my recollection is that the rules of engagement are in most instances pretty much the same.  As a cop, if I was in a gun fight with a murder suspect, it really didn't matter if I shot him/her in the front or the back, as long as I was lawfully using deadly force.  (I only discharged my weapon off the range once)  If anything, I had more restrictions on my use of force as an Army guy than I did as a cop.

Guns are guns - they are not a symbol of anything.  They are a tool used by millions of Americans every day.  Some are cops, some soldiers, but most are civilians.

And as a cop, I carried lots of weapons.  One or more firearms, baton, pepper spray, taser, and a big metal flashlight.  The only reason I lugged around all that stuff was to use it to protect myself or others. 

Respectfully,

Ned Lee

[Smithsonia]

Ned;
Thanks for proving my points. Although, that was not likely your intention. I appreciate it.

[Ned]

Ed,

I'm glad that I was able to reinforce your sterotypes in all three catagories: police, military, and lawyers who "don't understand these differences."

But rather than merely responding with disdain and condecension, I thought you might want to have an actual discussion.

Apparently I was wrong (again.)

Ned Lee
Clueless lawyer, cop, and military guy.

[NCRblues]

Ed,
I must disagree with you. As a law Enforcement officer in the state of Missouri my sidearm is in no way a symbol of authority. The badge is the symbol of authority, that is what the state and federal governments say as well. In order to carry my firearm on or off duty I have to have on me, my badge and the state identification card that identifies me as a Law enforcement officer. The firearm or any other "weapon" I carry is there to defend myself or others, in fear of life or limb... that's it.

[Smithsonia]

Ned;
If you look up the Supreme Court work on the subject when the Clinton Administration tried to ban numerous types of guns in the 90's... then gun manufacturers actually made the exact points that I made above.

Weapon: Definition. Implement or device that is intended to kill or maim. The reason that the manufacturers won... or at least were able to defend their position was that word "intended." The manufacturers never use the term weapon. They use the term (in promotional materials, sales brochures, etc) firearm, gun, rifle, pistol, handgun, etc... but never weapon, when talking about guns for sale to the public or peace officers. BECAUSE, the manufacturer can not apply "intention" at the factory. There is no manufacturing process for "Intention." Intention is applied only by the user. Intention is the act of humans, solely.

That is why the Clinton Administration was able to ban certain guns as weapons. This is known as the assault "weapons" ban. Those guns that carry bayonet lugs, big clips, fully automatic, etc. These items can only be considered "weapons." These items were not considered less safe but items that have the "intention" declared. As in, Military style weapons.

It is the current law of the land. OR at least it was when I worked for the manufacturers regarding the topic up through '01. Regarding saving others or yourself... it has nothing to do with carrying a gun. Quit confusing carry with intention. Killing is an act of intention. Carrying is not. Drawing, announcing, and firing is an act of intention.

Additionally, I am sure that you missed the caveats that I expressed above regarding self-defense and rules of engagement because these didn't help the points that you were attempting to make.

If you review the arguments, the rulings, the congressional testimony, and the ban on certain military style "weapons," you'll find your mistake. I can only explain so much of this within the limits of space and time on this thread.

The Police Chiefs Association was in Kansas City several years ago (1999 I think). I gave a lecture on this topic. I'm sorry the Chiefs didn't get this information to some of the rank and file.

If you'd been called to the stand regarding an officer involved shooting... likely a lawyer would have called your attention to the difference. In this little word "Weapon" and "intention" hangs many careers and many police departments reputations.

Strangely, Peace Officers get this wrong so often it is confounding to me. It changes nothing about your procedures. In fact it changes nothing but how you testify on the stand. BUT, as far as I know... it has been this way since the 60s, that is the 1860s. It just got to be a hot topic in the 90s, the 1990s. Although it did come up after the Kent State Shootings and retraining military riot teams for domestic situations.

Hunting shotguns/Rifles are weapons - intended to kill or maim (in my case pheasants, elk, quail, and if it isn't too cold ducks and geese. Target rifles are not weapons. At least mine are not. Mine shoot paper targets and are too heavy and not correctly sighted for field work.

"Weapon" is a scary word. It is usually used by the media in loose ways. It has been used in a loose way on this thread. I prefer to not be scary - just factual.

[Short Field]

"This is my weapon, this is my gun, this is for killing, this is for ..."   Back in another life, my USMC DI was quick to beat this into us.  I love to plink as much as the next person and don't have a problem with firearms training.  But it is a weapon.

[Smithsonia]

Short Field.
I am not a Marine but in Full Metal Jacket - the line was, "this is my rifle, this is my gun"...etc.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3Xj4W2TGQPI

If it is a "weapon" that you shoot then it is so by your "intention." Not mine. Not by the Manufacturers. If you ever accidentally shoot someone... this will come up at your trial. I wouldn't care to work with your defense team. The Dick Cheney caveat aside.

If you are plinking cans then you are NOT intending to kill or maim. You are shooting a gun. If you turn it on your plinking buddies it becomes a weapon. Because, quite to their surprise I am sure, you have changed your "intention."

In this way... the act of shooting, of not shooting, and the consequences of these actions/in-actions becomes the shooters and not the gun's responsibility. Not the gun's manufacturer, either, not society in general, not the devil, etc. Personal responsibility is assigned through the reading of these "intentions." Intentions are plans, mind-sets, reasonings, etc.

Plexico Buress will likely have this come up at his trial and he shot himself. His answer to the prosecutors question; "what were your intentions in buying, carrying, carrying this gun on the night you shot yourself, Mr. Buress?" Mr. Buress' answer can/will mean a great deal of difference in the time he eventually serves.

Peace Officer who carry with "intention" (to kill or maim), instead of carry for purpose (serve and "protect". Protect includes "defend" and defend includes deadly force) are the ones that sit behind bars wondering where they went wrong. They went wrong because their intention was to "kill" and not to defend. Clarity in the words speeds the actions. These actions are trained in precise order and for expressed purposes. To fulfill each link in the logic chain and assure compliance with the laws in the use of deadly force.

[MIKE]

Ding.