BDU: To wear or not to wear that is the question!

[Cap Zapped]

Hello, everyone! Ok, need to get the official word from  you vets out there, as I am totally new at this, and please don't direct me to ask my fellow senior higher ranks for the answer, as they are unsure as well.  Here is the question: Can you wear the BLUE BDU when you are acting as Scanner, Observer, or even pilot? Or...do you have to wear a flying suit?

Thanks!

[BuckeyeDEJ]

You can wear the blue BDU.

[RiverAux]

You can wear any CAP uniform unless your Wing or Region has actually mandated something specific (most have not). 

[Eclipse]

You can wear any CAP uniform unless your Wing or Region has actually mandated something specific (most have not).

Yep.

[arajca]

Hello, everyone! Ok, need to get the official word from  you vets out there, as I am totally new at this, and please don't direct me to ask my fellow senior higher ranks for the answer, as they are unsure as well.  Here is the question: Can you wear the BLUE BDU when you are acting as Scanner, Observer, or even pilot? Or...do you have to wear a flying suit?

Thanks!

Since the answer has been given, I will make a comment on checking with your chain of command before posting here - You did it RIGHT. Too many times someone will ask a question here that is properly addressed to their chain. To those who ask here AFTER checking,  :clap: :clap: :clap: you'll find people are more apt to answer politely.

Thank you.

[Gunner C]

You can wear any CAP uniform unless your Wing or Region has actually mandated something specific (most have not).

Mess dress is not recommended.    A utility type uniform is best - with a flight suit preferred by most.  But yes, you can wear BBDUs.

[Strick]

Dude !!!! when you said mess dress I fell out of my seat laughing because I could visualize some SM doing something like that

[AlphaSigOU]

Dude !!!! when you said mess dress I fell out of my seat laughing because I could visualize some SM doing something like that

There's gotta be an after-five air sortie! 

[DC]

If you can, I would recommend getting a flight bag, they are a lot more comfortable than BDUs for those long sorties... They can get a little warm though, if that is a major consideration.

Just my $0.02...

[Eclipse]

Dude !!!! when you said mess dress I fell out of my seat laughing because I could visualize some SM doing something like that.

its not really that far-fetched, what about a dining out or similar on an airport?

I could see a few commanders from 1/2 a state away jumping in a CAP plane in mess dress or service dress.

It only says a uniform, nothing more (except in CAWG).

[DC]

Dude !!!! when you said mess dress I fell out of my seat laughing because I could visualize some SM doing something like that.

its not really that far-fetched, what about a dining out or similar on an airport?

I could see a few commanders from 1/2 a state away jumping in a CAP plane in mess dress or service dress.

It only says a uniform, nothing more (except in CAWG).

That's flying in style!

And discomfort!

[Eclipse]

If you can, I would recommend getting a flight bag, they are a lot more comfortable than BDUs for those long sorties... They can get a little warm though, if that is a major consideration.

Just my $0.02...

Or a utility - looks the same, works the same, much cooler in the summer, and costs about 1/4 what a new Nomex costs.

[Eclipse]

Dude !!!! when you said mess dress I fell out of my seat laughing because I could visualize some SM doing something like that.

its not really that far-fetched, what about a dining out or similar on an airport?

I could see a few commanders from 1/2 a state away jumping in a CAP plane in mess dress or service dress.

It only says a uniform, nothing more (except in CAWG).

That's flying in style!

And discomfort!

Heh - nothing like turning $50 worth of mini medals into FOD with the seatbelt! 

[RiverAux]

Is anyone but me worried that the original poster's squadron leadership wasn't able to answer this simple question?  If this is a non-flying unit, I suppose that would be ok.  But, if this is a flying unit, just about anyone should have known this.  Its not like its some obscure requirement in the supply regulations. 

[Eclipse]

Yeah, it flew through my mind, but you and I know this is typical.

Commanders can't be bothered to read the regs, instead relying on rumor and hearsay and WIWAC.

Members, poorly trained, who can't be bothered to read them either in an effort to answer their own questions, or support their interpretations.

And the worst - misinformed members, or members with a hidden bias against one uniform or another who simply make things up out of "whole cloth" (pun intended), and then get hyper-defensive when they are called out.

Another place a centralized basic training would be a good idea - kill this stuff before it starts.

The key, for those scoring at home, is that military-style regs tell you what you can do/wear/etc.  Rarely do they tell you what you can't.  If is not in the text, you can't do it.

And anyone arguing with the text needs to have a supplement, ICL, or similar in hand to make the respective argument.

Arguing our regulations are "too complicated" doesn't fly, because the most basic components and wear of CAP uniforms hasn't really changed much in a decade, and nothing worth mentioning has changed in at nearly two years.

And belay the comments here about expiring ICLS - yes, they do expire, and no its not relevant.

[Thom]

Is anyone but me worried that the original poster's squadron leadership wasn't able to answer this simple question?  If this is a non-flying unit, I suppose that would be ok.  But, if this is a flying unit, just about anyone should have known this.  Its not like its some obscure requirement in the supply regulations.

Yeah, I was sort of hoping that his unit had no other flyers, and he was headed off to an exercise or school somewhere far removed, otherwise...you'd hope a question that simple would be easily answered.  For that matter, if I didn't know I bet, you know what

wait one...

I'm back.  As I supposed, less than one minute and I had the answer from the CAP Knowledgebase.  Searched on UNIFORMS and FLYING.  Sixth answer down had it.

BTW, that answer also noted that CAPM39-1 authorizes the following for flying:

Table 1-1. Wearing the Uniform

Members may wear the uniform:
flying in CAP aircraft (corporate and member-owned aircraft used in CAP flight activity). The service uniform, BDUs, utility uniform, field uniform, CAP or AF style flight suit, CAP blazer, aviator shirt, or knit shirt uniform combinations are all authorized. The wing commander, or designee, will prescribe the type clothing to be worn by members while flying or engaging in organized recreational activities. The region commander will prescribe wear policy for members of the region headquarters.

Note the complete lack of MESS DRESS in that list!  I guess somebody thought about it, and decided that wouldn't work so well.

Thom Hamilton

[RiverAux]

Well, that sword would be a bear in the cockpit.   

[Hawk200]

Well, that sword would be a bear in the cockpit.   

Huh?

[RiverAux]

http://captalk.net/index.php?topic=2870.0

[Hawk200]

OK, a Civil Air Patrol sword. What does it have to do with the cockpit?

[Major Carrales]

When I first joined CAP I was encouraged to get the BDU uniform first, since it was a field uniform I could use while flying or on a UDF/Ground Team search.  I was luck to find a full set of blues that fit from a thrift shop and an uncle had given me a set of service caps.

Since then the only uniform I have added is a flight suit, over they years I upgraded the sizes of blues shirts.  Still have the same pair of BDUs only bought an extra top from a surplus store and fixed it up in the "CAP Minimalist" style (original set is in the "CAP Maximalist style.") 

[Major Carrales]

OK, a Civil Air Patrol sword. What does it have to do with the cockpit?

Hawk, swords are a "no no" in CAP, what you see there is a CAP Letter Opener.

[Hawk200]

OK, a Civil Air Patrol sword. What does it have to do with the cockpit?

Hawk, swords are a "no no" in CAP, what you see there is a CAP Letter Opener.

I know that, I'm just a bit puzzled about one being talked about in a cockpit.

[Major Carrales]

OK, a Civil Air Patrol sword. What does it have to do with the cockpit?

Hawk, swords are a "no no" in CAP, what you see there is a CAP Letter Opener.

I know that, I'm just a bit puzzled about one being talked about in a cockpit.

Mr Spock would simply dismiss it as someone's failed attempt at humor.

[CadetProgramGuy]

Dude !!!! when you said mess dress I fell out of my seat laughing because I could visualize some SM doing something like that

I had the same mental image......Then again we could argue the "you fight in what you are wearing that the time"  Kinda like the pink "I heart NY" boxers i've seen somewhere.......

[RiverAux]

We were joking about mess dress, which includes a sword in some services, so I referenced the CAP sword.  Evidently the discussion we had about it went too far back for people to have gotten the joke.

[lordmonar]

The key, for those scoring at home, is that military-style regs tell you what you can do/wear/etc.  Rarely do they tell you what you can't.  If is not in the text, you can't do it.

Got to call you on this.

Regulations tell you what you must do, what should do and what you can't do.  Everything else is up to command decision.

[SarDragon]

The key, for those scoring at home, is that military-style regs tell you what you can do/wear/etc.  Rarely do they tell you what you can't.  If is not in the text, you can't do it.

Got to call you on this.

Regulations tell you what you must do, what should do and what you can't do.  Everything else is up to command decision.

Unless the reg specifically says something like this, whis a little more restrictive than your general rules.

COMPLIANCE WITH THIS PUBLICATION IS MANDATORY. Any variation from this publication is not authorized. Items not listed in this publication are not authorized for wear.

[Eclipse]

The key, for those scoring at home, is that military-style regs tell you what you can do/wear/etc.  Rarely do they tell you what you can't.  If is not in the text, you can't do it.

Got to call you on this.

Regulations tell you what you must do, what should do and what you can't do.  Everything else is up to command decision.

Negative ghostrider - that would allow for a lot of latitude in anything not thought of or in existence when the reg was written.

The tell you what you will do. (i.e. will shall).

Sometimes mention options or loosen the cord a bit. (i.e. my should can).

But rarely do they exclude options unless the target audience is so dense that they repeatedly do something the authority doesn't want to happen.

[dogboy]

Be sure to read the Wing supplement to National uniform regulations. Some Wings require Nomex and leather boots for flight personnel.

[RiverAux]

But rarely do they exclude options unless the target audience is so dense that they repeatedly do something the authority doesn't want to happen.

Such as the long list of prohibited actions in CAP aircraft in 60-1 or situations in which CAP uniforms are prohibited from being worn in 39-1?

[Eclipse]

But rarely do they exclude options unless the target audience is so dense that they repeatedly do something the authority doesn't want to happen.

Such as the long list of prohibited actions in CAP aircraft in 60-1 or situations in which CAP uniforms are prohibited from being worn in 39-1?

sadly both

[Strick]

Some wings require NOMEX but SER allows shorts? Can't figure this one out myself.  I was part of a wing in SER and yes it did get hot flying over the gulf coast but in the interest of safety I wear Nomex while flying(except commercially, TSA always stops me when I try to board wearing the flight bag and knee board with survival gear  )  I have seen aircrews wearing BDU'S.   I saw one AC wearing Blue's SS, Polo, and flight suit.   BDU'S .  I would always have at least on set on hand.

[RiverAux]

NB hooted down the proposal to allow shorts while flying if I remember correctly. 

[Eclipse]

Some wings require NOMEX but SER allows shorts? Can't figure this one out myself.  I was part of a wing in SER and yes it did get hot flying over the gulf coast but in the interest of safety I wear Nomex while flying(except commercially, TSA always stops me when I try to board wearing the flight bag and knee board with survival gear  )  I have seen aircrews wearing BDU'S.   I saw one AC wearing Blue's SS, Polo, and flight suit.   BDU'S .  I would always have at least on set on hand.

NESA MAS and Johnson Flight Academy have uniform waivers for shorts, I believe the NFA does, too.

Frankly, the Nomex requirement if more silly than the shorts.  I'd prefer we just wear our uniform, period, but our members are far more likely to suffer from heat related illness than be saved by a fire retardant garment.

[ol'fido]

Well, that sword would be a bear in the cockpit.   

I remeber seeing pictures of RM mess dress uniforms that incorporated a cape. That might be more appropriate for flying. It works for the Man of Steel.

[Eclipse]

Well, that sword would be a bear in the cockpit.   

I remeber seeing pictures of RM mess dress uniforms that incorporated a cape. That might be more appropriate for flying. It works for the Man of Steel.

To the salad bar, and beyond!



Gentlemen, of course wear a cloak, and ladies wear a cape.

[SJFedor]

NB hooted down the proposal to allow shorts while flying if I remember correctly.

Yeah. But SER got a National waiver to allow the crews to fly in the polo and khaki shorts during the "hot months". Ugh, i'm glad i'm in GLR now 

[BuckeyeDEJ]

I remeber seeing pictures of RM mess dress uniforms that incorporated a cape. That might be more appropriate for flying. It works for the Man of Steel.
To the salad bar, and beyond!



Gentlemen, of course wear a cloak, and ladies wear a cape.

I had no idea Dracula was a Marine.

[Major Carrales]

NB hooted down the proposal to allow shorts while flying if I remember correctly.

Yeah. But SER got a National waiver to allow the crews to fly in the polo and khaki shorts during the "hot months". Ugh, i'm glad i'm in GLR now 

Crash in the desert in shorts and your likely be facing issues of cold in the night.  Really, is wearing pants all that "ridiculous?"

[RiverAux]

Some wings require NOMEX but SER allows shorts?

Are you sure?  They don't list any supplement to this effect on their web page. 

[Eclipse]

Some wings require NOMEX but SER allows shorts?

Are you sure?  They don't list any supplement to this effect on their web page.

The Wing-level 60-1 supplements all went ((*poof*)) when the new rev was released, which has led me to wonder how Wings are enforcing things like Nomex when they don't have an enforceable supplement.

[NC Hokie]

The Wing-level 60-1 supplements all went ((*poof*)) when the new rev was released, which has led me to wonder how Wings are enforcing things like Nomex when they don't have an enforceable supplement.

This may come across as cynical, but it's really just an acknowledgment of fact...

Expired supplements are enforced the same way expired ICLs are; everyone just ignores the expiration.

[RiverAux]

I was talking about the SER supplement mentioned earlier.  Besides, why would it have been in a supplement to 60-1 when it is a uniform item?

[Hawk200]

I was talking about the SER supplement mentioned earlier.  Besides, why would it have been in a supplement to 60-1 when it is a uniform item?

Fire resistance isn't a uniform issue, it's a safety issue. Therefore the safety pub references it. It's actually pretty logical.

[RiverAux]

Hmm, then why are NOMEX uniforms in 39-1?  Wouldn't the logical place to put an approval for a new uniform be in the uniform regulation?  Wouldn't that be where most people would look for such a thing? 

[Hawk200]

Hmm, then why are NOMEX uniforms in 39-1?  Wouldn't the logical place to put an approval for a new uniform be in the uniform regulation?  Wouldn't that be where most people would look for such a thing?

Uniform configurations are regulated in Civil Air Patrol Manual 39-1. The flightsuit is a uniform hence it's configuration is listed in the uniform manual.

The flight suit happens to be made out of NOMEX, a fire resistant material.  Fire resistant materials are being required as a safety issue. Therefore, the safety reg is supplemented to require the uniform that happens have fire resistant properties.

CAPM 39-1 is a manual that deals with appearance. CAPR 60-1 deals with operations. One tells you how to wear something, the other tells you when to wear it. Make sense?

[O-Rex]

NB hooted down the proposal to allow shorts while flying if I remember correctly.

Yeah. But SER got a National waiver to allow the crews to fly in the polo and khaki shorts during the "hot months". Ugh, i'm glad i'm in GLR now 

Crash in the desert in shorts and your likely be facing issues of cold in the night.  Really, is wearing pants all that "ridiculous?"

b/t/w, Florida Wing chose NOT to adopt the shorts.

[Angus]

You can wear any CAP uniform unless your Wing or Region has actually mandated something specific (most have not).

Mess dress is not recommended.    A utility type uniform is best - with a flight suit preferred by most.  But yes, you can wear BBDUs.

I did wear my mess dress once, I even jumped out of the plane on the same mission. Only issue the secretary disavowed my participation in that mission.   

[Gunner C]

NB hooted down the proposal to allow shorts while flying if I remember correctly.

Yeah. But SER got a National waiver to allow the crews to fly in the polo and khaki shorts during the "hot months". Ugh, i'm glad i'm in GLR now 

Crash in the desert in shorts and your likely be facing issues of cold in the night.  Really, is wearing pants all that "ridiculous?"

b/t/w, Florida Wing chose NOT to adopt the shorts.

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

[Strick]

NB hooted down the proposal to allow shorts while flying if I remember correctly.

Yeah. But SER got a National waiver to allow the crews to fly in the polo and khaki shorts during the "hot months". Ugh, i'm glad i'm in GLR now 

Crash in the desert in shorts and your likely be facing issues of cold in the night.  Really, is wearing pants all that "ridiculous?"

b/t/w, Florida Wing chose NOT to adopt the shorts.

AMEN

[RiverAux]

Hmm, if the shorts are in an regional supplement to 60-1, then it should be on the NHQ 60-1 supplement web page.  Nothing there. 

[MikeD]

NB hooted down the proposal to allow shorts while flying if I remember correctly.

Yeah. But SER got a National waiver to allow the crews to fly in the polo and khaki shorts during the "hot months". Ugh, i'm glad i'm in GLR now 

Crash in the desert in shorts and your likely be facing issues of cold in the night.  Really, is wearing pants all that "ridiculous?"

I have a couple pairs of these "convertable" pants, the legs unzip and it turns into shorts. 

That said, for CAP and work, I wear Nomex for flying even when it's over 110 (F) out.   :angel:

[Eclipse]

That said, for CAP and work, I wear Nomex for flying even when it's over 110 (F) out.

I don't get what all the fuss is about Nomex in the Summer the Nomex flightsuits I've owned were all
paper thin and fine in hot weather.

I have to assume that there are different weights and maybe the more "frugal" of us can't be bothered to shop correctly?

[Hawk200]

I don't get what all the fuss is about Nomex in the Summer the Nomex flightsuits I've owned were all
paper thin and fine in hot weather.

I have to assume that there are different weights and maybe the more "frugal" of us can't be bothered to shop correctly?

I've noticed in the last couple of years that the material in the latest ones are a bit thicker. They don't breathe as well.

[Al Sayre]

Ya'll can hate on our shorts all you want, but the reality is that heat stress is a much more likely danger than fire, and we have to do something to help reduce that danger. 

I flew a 4 hour mission last week (in shorts).  It was 91 degrees and 90% humidity when we departed at 0900, and around 100 on the ramp when we stopped for lunch.  I consumed 3 liters of water during the flight(s), and when I got back home and stepped on the scale before I took a shower, found that I weighed 6 lbs less than when I started.  That means I sweated out somewhere near 2 gallons of water during that time. 

There isn't much cooling at 1000 feet over the MS delta, every little bit helps...