Anyone else having pilots quiting over the FEMA courses?

AlaskanCFI · May 06, 2009, 12:37:35 AM

The 700 course in particular seem to really be steaming the shorts of many of our senior mission & instructor pilots. Just wondering how it is going with folks in the Lower 48... Maybe it is just an Alaskan thing.

heliodoc · May 06, 2009, 01:12:03 AM

BITD when the I courses came on line.................. we in a Midwestern EMA had to make the plug necessary for all the VFD's and paid fire, LE, SO's and whatnot

We had a lot of nonbelievers that thought it never had to be done.......well that got them pretty far

I do not know the history in the lower 48 but in my State, it has taken 6 months plus to get the folks done and there are still stragglers today.

Steaming?? Are they threatening to quit? Do they need to talk to a former EMA type?
I work the forestry and wildland side of things and I have had to explain it to more than one audience

I thought the same before and I had a slow realization while I was working that EMA that it was just a awareness function for support folks like CAP and a REQUIREMENT for REAL First Response types. I know I went thru all the iterations with folks. Some came to realize its just the thing to do with the bend on today's operating environment and since CAP did such a swell job in selling it and having the current problem, this is what is has amounted to........

So all in all, what little I can help your senior pilot and instructors, feel free to PM me, I could TRY to help your folks in understanding........you senior pilots and IP's are great folks and I would sure hate to see 'em depart over 1) an online awareness course and 2) Some of CAP's somewhat lackadaisial deadlines and ability to sell a ES product, or NHQ's (in)abilities to reaaaaaaally explain other than "going back to trainee status" unless this is accomplished. Wanting missions and actually meeting with the EM community seems to be somewhat scattered from State to State, in my opinion.

Maybe having a face to face with your EM type up there during a Squadron meeting or setting up a meeting during the week with him or her may clear up the "gunk' in getting that accomplished

I am hoping for the best for your folks, up there!!!!

IceNine · May 06, 2009, 03:47:32 AM

Quote from: AlaskanCFI on May 06, 2009, 12:37:35 AM
The 700 course in particular seem to really be steaming the shorts of many of our senior mission & instructor pilots. Just wondering how it is going with folks in the Lower 48... Maybe it is just an Alaskan thing.

That's an easy one to fix.

"I've gathered you all here today to talk about your use of Corportate aircraft. Effective immediately the cheap flying you have been doing will be suspended until you have completed ICS 700. As soon as you have I will re-instate your active pilot status

Thanks for your time,
signed
Actual

AlaskanCFI · May 06, 2009, 05:24:50 AM

I agree.
However the free flying is not much of an incentive to Alaskans. Most of the pilots in question are aircraft owners and fly for a living, like myself. Flying has become a chore like taking out the trash. We are more of a SAR Wing than a flying club.

That said, experienced commercial grade (volunteer) SAR pilots are something I would rather not see the Wing loose.

Fortunately my home squadron worked through this last year and everyone is onboard.

es_g0d · May 06, 2009, 07:40:36 AM

Its a pain, but here in the interior we've worked through it. Grit your teeth ...

BTW, AlaskanCFI, I enjoyed your booth in Anchorage last weekend (I THINK that was your booth, wasn't it?). It was my first time to that show, and I was seriously impressed ... I was able to chat with legend Dick Rutan, and I also met Irvin Gleim of the "red books" I like for written tests.

wingnut55 · May 06, 2009, 05:37:43 PM

Pilots are quitting and it is again because of the poor attitude of NHQ

DON"T insult an aircraft owner in CAP that we are in this because of the cheap flying, it is by far cheaper to fly your own plane than to spend an extra $1,000 to belong to CAP.

some of you guys don't get it.

CAWG is loosing check pilots because they are tired as one accurately said" I am tired of the "Non Pilots" in CAP pushing us around during a mission and I am tired of the BS"

in short it is not about the mission it is about the arrogance and disrespectful behavior of those in 'COMMAND" towards the people who are doing the work.

Spike · May 06, 2009, 06:00:24 PM

Quote from: wingnut55 on May 06, 2009, 05:37:43 PM
CAWG is loosing check pilots because they are tired as one accurately said" I am tired of the "Non Pilots" in CAP pushing us around during a mission and I am tired of the BS"

in short it is not about the mission it is about the arrogance and disrespectful behavior of those in 'COMMAND" towards the people who are doing the work.

Hold up there. Some would turn around and argue that Pilots are arrogant, and disrespectful toward "non-pilots".

Those are opinions fella, not facts. Lets stick with facts and get to the real reason why (if we truly are) loosing pilots. You may lose 2 pilots, but in my area we have an influx.

Nolan Teel · May 06, 2009, 06:14:37 PM

Thats one thing im sad I missed out on... Flying in Alaska... Im only 26 but sadly I cant pay the bills off what some of the companies pay in Alaska...

AlaskanCFI · May 06, 2009, 06:33:36 PM

QuoteBTW, AlaskanCFI, I enjoyed your booth in Anchorage last weekend (I THINK that was your booth, wasn't it?).

Nope not me. I sold my booth to somebody else at a loss.
This year I had to attend Commanders Call on that weekend. So I missed any income I may have generated for my business. Last years was about $3K from the trade show. My donation to the CAP.
But what do I know, I'm just a pilot.

♠SARKID♠ · May 06, 2009, 06:42:36 PM

I just can't wrap my head around how anyone can have a problem with taking those courses. If you watch the web-course they aren't hard and they don't take much time (IS-700 should take 2 hours for the online class max, and however long it takes to finish the test). What is it that they are mad about?

Climbnsink · May 06, 2009, 07:44:48 PM

The courses are easy. Still I can see pilots quitting, it isn't that these new tests are hard it is just the new straw that broke that pilot's back. I'll fly glider O rides, that is my main contribution to CAP, but I've given up on CAP power flying both C-17 and MP training. Too much hassle.

Larry Mangum · May 06, 2009, 08:27:59 PM

Quote from: Climbnsink on May 06, 2009, 07:44:48 PM
The courses are easy. Still I can see pilots quitting, it isn't that these new tests are hard it is just the new straw that broke that pilot's back. I'll fly glider O rides, that is my main contribution to CAP, but I've given up on CAP power flying both C-17 and MP training. Too much hassle.

Can you clarify for us just what the hassle is?

sparks · May 06, 2009, 09:20:40 PM

One of the problems with on-line courses concerns members without high speed connections. My squadron only has dial up so even squadron work is slow. Taking a course with dial up sin't fun at all.
I took all of them but can't say I feel better off for the effort.

Some members patience may have snapped from the bommerang impact of terrible implementation of e-services and MIMS plus removal of a National Commander etc. It isn't just one thing that is impacting their decision to stay or go. The ICS course requirement might be the tipping point. Of course the economic downturn and gas prices doesn't help. Just MHO, we really don't know the facts unless NHQ shares nonrenewal surveys with us. Do they even do those any more?

FW · May 06, 2009, 09:25:44 PM

Quote from: Climbnsink on May 06, 2009, 07:44:48 PM
The courses are easy. Still I can see pilots quitting, it isn't that these new tests are hard it is just the new straw that broke that pilot's back. I'll fly glider O rides, that is my main contribution to CAP, but I've given up on CAP power flying both C-17 and MP training. Too much hassle.

I agree. I spent 4 Sunday mornings completing ICS 100, 200, 700 & 800. I don't see the problem with doing them however, I understand the frustration some MPs may have with all the requirements they must meet to be current.

While Wingnut's rant is a bit over the top, (ICS courses are a govt. requirement for continued funding; not a command decision) I agree there may be just a bit much to do before getting into the cockpit.
Fortunately, NHQ is working on making the process easier without compromising requirements.

es_g0d · May 06, 2009, 11:30:57 PM

Honestly, I'm more upset at the mandated recurring "Aircraft Handling" video training. If you watch it once, you've got it (although you probably "had it" before!). Watching it AGAIN is simply painful.

The basic level ICS courses aren't that great either, but they're really not bad. As someone else said, they ARE mandatory by presidential directive, NOT a CAP decision.

If we tailor the rest of our training to avoid duplication, we'll keep our membership.

Climbnsink · May 07, 2009, 03:22:56 AM

Quote from: Who_knows? on May 06, 2009, 08:27:59 PM
Quote from: Climbnsink on May 06, 2009, 07:44:48 PM
The courses are easy. Still I can see pilots quitting, it isn't that these new tests are hard it is just the new straw that broke that pilot's back. I'll fly glider O rides, that is my main contribution to CAP, but I've given up on CAP power flying both C-17 and MP training. Too much hassle.

Can you clarify for us just what the hassle is?

Form 5's are OK, the world works that way and its a good idea to be checked out. The hassle is wmirs, calling a fro, we had two logsheets iirc, fuel slip had to go somewhere, calling the fro again, wmirs again. Funded flights are horrible, all that plus 4 or 5 forms. As someone else mentioned there is the yearly ground handling video. I realize the more you do it the faster you can get through everything, but imo and others apparently it is too much hassle for cheaper/free flying. I guess some folks don't mind all the little things and for some of us all the little things add up to too much bother.

Spike · May 07, 2009, 04:11:22 AM

^ Nothing is free, and you should not be coming into CAP expecting to just fly cheap and NOTHING else.

We all contribute to the level we are comfortable with. If you or other pilots feel that there is too much "busy work" that takes time away from something more productive, the door is always open.

I have to say that is a standard feeling amongst pilots. This is not the local flying club, come here to work, and enjoy doing what you do. If you don't enjoy it, please find something else.

Rotorhead · May 07, 2009, 05:34:13 AM

Quote from: wingnut55 on May 06, 2009, 05:37:43 PM
CAWG is loosing check pilots because they are tired as one accurately said" I am tired of the "Non Pilots" in CAP pushing us around during a mission and I am tired of the BS"

in short it is not about the mission it is about the arrogance and disrespectful behavior of those in 'COMMAND" towards the people who are doing the work.

Trust me, pilots are not the only ones in CAP "doing the work."

WT · May 07, 2009, 11:58:11 AM

As a Deputy Commander for Seniors of a fairly large flying squadron, I think the real problem is frustration. There are not sufficient communications of the requirements, nor is there a roadmap of what needs to be done for specific tasks. One major problem is that for ES ratings, sine the SQTRs have not been updated, the SQTRs that people complete do not match the ADDITIONAL requirements. So, someone prints an SQTR and completes all tasks on an SQTR, then finds out there are additional requirements not listed on the SQTR. That causes frustration. For pilots, where there is a "quick start", there is not anything printed that contains all tasks to complete. And, in talking to different people, they get different opinions on what needs to be completed for specific tasks. Once they think they have completed the requirements for specific tasks, they then find out about additional requirements they didn't know about. That also causes frustration. Also, there is a mindset that pilots get all kinds of "free flying". That also causes frustration.

Climbnsink · May 07, 2009, 02:15:25 PM

Quote from: Spike on May 07, 2009, 04:11:22 AM
^ Nothing is free, and you should not be coming into CAP expecting to just fly cheap and NOTHING else.

We all contribute to the level we are comfortable with. If you or other pilots feel that there is too much "busy work" that takes time away from something more productive, the door is always open.

I have to say that is a standard feeling amongst pilots. This is not the local flying club, come here to work, and enjoy doing what you do. If you don't enjoy it, please find something else.

I'm not asking for free. I think you are justifying all the bureaucratic stuff as non-fun CAP work, I disagree. Washing stuff is non-fun CAP work. Bureaucratic hoop jumping is bureaucratic hoop jumping and some of us don't have much tolerance for it. As you rightly point out the door is open and contribute what you can, that is what I do. Contribute to the Cadet program doing what I know best. The OP started this asking about losing pilots due to more bureaucratic nonsense and I was responding that I understand and agree with the pilots that have quit. Make all the requirements you want and someday no one will show up to contribute.