Had my First actual aircrew mission yesterday

[RiverAux]

There are some not clearly spelled out aspects of our current ES regulations in regards to how members are employed on a mission.  All our training requirements are geared at individual qualification, but 60-3 is not quite as clear on who can do what on a mission.  As discussed in other threads, we don't have any real guidance on any ground-related activities on DR missions. 

As far as I can recall, there isn't a clear statement in 60-3 that says that you must hold a specific  qualification or be in training for a specific qualification in order to perform as task in the SQTR for that position on a real or actual mission.  We say what it means to be "Ground Team Qualified", but where does it say that only GT members can guard a crash site, for example? 

Lacking such a statement, we have to assume that if a task is part of the SQTR for a position, a qualified or trainee in that position is authorized to do that job on a mission.  Therefore, since Observers are trained to Locate and Silence an ELT, they are authorized to do it on missions.  However, if you read O-2007, the guide does put some restrictions on this capability in that they can only do it on airport grounds. 

[Eclipse]

This has nothing to do with an affinity for GT related activities - I am qualified aircrew and participate in missions "up there" regularly as well. This has everything to do with people understanding and accepting their role and qualifications, including the limitations those roles entail.

There's at least two different discussions here.

First, the issue of whether an MO (or other aircrew) should involve themselves in a ground search for an ELT when they believe they have determined the location.

1. As a Mission Observer trainee, knowing how to locate and silence an Emergency Locator Transmitter
(ELT) on the ground is essential. If you don't have a ground crew and you have determined the ELT signal is
coming from an airfield, you can land and find the offending aircraft. You can use a hand-held DF unit (Little
L-Per or Tracker) and/or a hand-held radio to locate the aircraft.

So I'll grant under those circumstances, with IC permission, having a member of the aircrew deactivate the ELT is fine.  I'm not excited about the idea, but regs is regs.

However the above doesn't make you a UDF team, as River said:

NOTE: Aircrews will not conduct searches off the main airport property as they are not normally equipped to
do so. If aircrews conducting an airport search suspect an aircraft crash off the field, they should request
additional assistance from local authorities and support from a CAP ground or urban direction finding team to
locate the crashsite.

However, that isn't what the original question here was about - namely Fly's comment that the UDF "team" on the ground was comprised of one person, which is clearly in violation of the regulation that states a UDF team will be a minimum of two qualified members (more if any of them are trainees), and Ground Teams require a minimum of four, including at least one GTL.

1-14
3) Composition of the ground or urban DF team will vary depending upon the assignment. Ground teams will not
be dispatched with fewer than four individuals, and urban DF teams with less than two.

I also recall directives regarding the trainee-to-SET ratio on a given team, but can't find the regs to back that up.

[wingnut55]

ye gads , get a grip, you must be in a dream world.

Oh I will sit in the Airplane and wait for 3 to 6 hours for a ground team.

Sorry, but you you make no sense and you sound like you have a Napoleon complex.

CAWG aircraft are supposed to carry a set of sticks so they can DF when they land at an airport.

but again that is also wishful thinking to expect all the aircraft to be in compliance.

I suppose when you do a ramp check you have to be a GT to do that.

So the truth is those that do, do. Those who rarely do talk the do 

[RiverAux]

I think he just said it would be ok for aircrew members to do it....

I would recommend that both aircrew members get out of the aircraft while looking for the ELT.  One to work the equipment and one to keep watch from a safety point of view -- making sure the other guy doesn't walk into something or have something run over him. 

[Eclipse]

CAWG aircraft are supposed to carry a set of sticks so they can DF when they land at an airport.
but again that is also wishful thinking to expect all the aircraft to be in compliance.

That may be a CAWG thing, but that is by no means universal.  In most states if the DF unit was in the airplane, the ground or UDF team wouldn't have one.

[SJFedor]

However, that isn't what the original question here was about - namely Fly's comment that the UDF "team" on the ground was comprised of one person, which is clearly in violation of the regulation that states a UDF team will be a minimum of two qualified members (more if any of them are trainees), and Ground Teams require a minimum of four, including at least one GTL.

Wasn't arguing that point, Major. You're very much correct on that. My only issue was with the following statements.

Aircrews fly in airplanes, ground and UDF teams search on the ground.

An airborne aircrew is not physically capable of deactivating or even determining within more than a few hundred feet (generally) where an active ELT is.   As a mission observer you have no business poking around an airport looking for an ELT, your job, and qualification, is in the airplane, not ground search activities.

An aircrew, without UDF qualifications as well, has no business prosecuting a ground search at an airport where they believe the ELT is. 

I think we've already established you were misinformed on this part, and have corrected your assumptions.



As for this line...

1. As a Mission Observer trainee, knowing how to locate and silence an Emergency Locator Transmitter
(ELT) on the ground is essential. If you don't have a ground crew and you have determined the ELT signal is
coming from an airfield, you can land and find the offending aircraft. You can use a hand-held DF unit (Little
L-Per or Tracker) and/or a hand-held radio to locate the aircraft.

So I'll grant under those circumstances, with IC permission, having a member of the aircrew deactivate the ELT is fine.  I'm not excited about the idea, but regs is regs.

Why aren't you excited about that? Do you want to take the phone call at 1am, wake up your GT (min 3 other people) or UDFT (someone else) and drive two hours to some remote airport in BFE where the aircrew is sitting in the cockpit, because you, as a GTM/GTL/UDFT just HAD to come turn it off for them?

It honestly sounds like you're not excited for it because, if we as an aircrew can just land and shut the offending beacon off, it negates the need for a GT/UDFT on the mission. It's about getting the mission done, not making sure everyone gets to play. Otherwise, why don't we activate an OSC, PSC, FASC, LSC, CUL, and full support staff for every mission that typically requires three people to run: IC, MP, MO?

[Eclipse]

Why aren't you excited about that? Do you want to take the phone call at 1am, wake up your GT (min 3 other people) or UDFT (someone else) and drive two hours to some remote airport in BFE where the aircrew is sitting in the cockpit, because you, as a GTM/GTL/UDFT just HAD to come turn it off for them?

It honestly sounds like you're not excited for it because, if we as an aircrew can just land and shut the offending beacon off, it negates the need for a GT/UDFT on the mission. It's about getting the mission done, not making sure everyone gets to play.

Yes, I want to take the phone call and wake up a GT - for some reason in your scenarios the aircrews are the only ones going and the ground guys aren't called until after the ELT is located - and no ground team should be driving 2 hours for an ELT, if they are the units in that area aren't carrying their weight.

The point here is proper use of resources and appropriate personnel, not just jumping in an aircraft and assuming its a non-distress at the end of the taxiway.

You wake and send the air and ground resources together, theoretically from an AO in their general vicinity and they coordinate the search - there's no reason an aircrew should even have to land.   Yes, aircraft generally have faster "get-there" times, but depending on the time to the plane, pre-flight, etc., my experience has been that the ground assets and aircraft get to the areas about the same times.

From a mission standpoint, yes, its get things done expediently, which means insuring all the appropriate assets are in the area when needed, not called in sequence so the searches take all day long.

And you can't discount the value of including as many people as possible. Maybe pilots don't like to be bothered at night, and that accounts for this notion that we're bothering people.  All I know is that when people join CAP they do it to be included in missions and similar activities. 

The majority you asked would not consider being awakened for an ELT search a "bother", even if half the time the get turned around mid-way to the AO.

[RogueLeader]

The only contention about that is that there are some areas in wings where there are no other units to take a ground mission.  it would be great if there was, but it's not always the case.