Thigh Rigs

[ctim]

Has anyone had any experience with thigh rigs/pouches for ES of any sort? Are they comfortable to wear or are they restricting? Do you have to have a special belt to hook them to, or will any belt do?
Thanks

[Stonewall]

I've used and carried a "drop holster" for my pistol for many years in the military and in some cases as a cop (usually carried it on my duty belt).

I have been issued and tried out a thigh rig similar to this.  Mine was from Diamondback Tactical, but I can't access that site from my work as it gets caught by the filter.

It seems like a decent idea, but they are very bulky to wear as medical gear is not small.  Figure you'll have bandages, pocket mask, scissors, tape, etc.  It's like adding 6" of width to your leg.  And don't even think about driving a car with it still on.  Even walking through a doorway, you'll hit the side every time.

I'm still convinced it's a bad idea, but I have yet to find a reasonable argument to say it's a great idea.

[Eclipse]

I've got a drop bag for medical and a different one for all the "on person" stuff.

If you're going to be walking around for an extended period of time they are fine and handy, but if you're getting in and out of a regular passenger vehicles, they are a PITA.

I don't use them much, and only have them because they were part of a very good deal I got that included a TAC vest.

[notaNCO forever]

 I have one that I usually use in the winter for extra space. I don't have any problems with walking or running with it on; it might be uncomfortable if you are of shorter stature. It is a pain to were in a vehicle, but if you are getting in and out of a vehicle allot it's not to hard to take the rig of and leave it in the vehicle.

[swamprat86]

I have one that I use to carry my Nalgene bottle and some other items.  It has a quick release on it so I can take it off my belt easily for getting in vehicles.  I use it a lot at encampments since I don't need a full pistol belt or camelback, it doesn't take up as much space when I am not wearing it in the barracks so I can put it on my desk and it won't get in the way.  I haven't had the opportunity to use it in an ES field environment since I still have my old rig.

I agree about using it for medical, may be a little too cumbersome, but for carrying water and smaller items without a belt or bag, I like it.

[Flying Pig]

When I was a SWAT EMT, I carried a model by pro med kits.


www.promedkits.com 

[SJFedor]

Speaking from the medical side of the house, the thigh rigs are only gonna be able to carry some basic stuff, which is all we really need/are allowed to use anyway.

But personally, I'd want a jump bag that's a little bigger and allows for me to carry more numbers of the basic supplies. That thigh rig that Lt. Steht referred to is good for a single casualty, but not that great if you have more then 1 person to care for.

Plus, that kit is more designed for someone sustaining penetrating injuries, i.e. gunshot wounds. It would scare me to death to think of anyone less than a Paramedic/RN/MD running around with 2 14ga angiocaths.

First time a plus sized senior member is hiking up a hill and gets winded, you'd end up with someone going "oooh! spontaneous tension pneumo!" and darting the poor guy.

[/sarcasm]

But for little things, if you wanna shell out the $$ for it, mainly for, of course, the cool factor, then sure, why not?

[notaNCO forever]

But for little things, if you wanna shell out the $$ for it, mainly for, of course, the cool factor, then sure, why not?

Isn't the cool factor the only reason to buy new gear anyways?

[Stonewall]

Isn't the cool factor the only reason to buy new gear anyways?

Duh.  That's rule #1.  If nothing else, look high speed.

SJFedor is correct on the small size of the thigh rig.  Yes, we do carry these "individual medical kits" for ourselves (not for others).  If carrying a "team bag", you need to think about more than one casualty.

Many moons ago I was at a DOD Agency's "capabilities day" where an AF PJ had his personal jump bag that he would carry for missions similar to "Blackhawk Down"; as if he were on a team vs. responding to a specific emergency.

In his bag he had vacuum packed mini-trauma kits, about 6 of them.  Each them had about 6 items like pressure dressing, OPA, Kerlix, chest seal and maybe something else.  Can't remember off the top of my head.  That day, I put together the same exact thing for my CAP squadron's Team Medic Kit (medium rucksack with rubbermade container).

Today, almost 14 years later, I see these all over the place.  Even sold as an "item" from high speed gear or tacmed companies.

[Eclipse]

Wow - great idea - could you put up more details, maybe in a seperate thread?

[Stonewall]

Wow - great idea - could you put up more details, maybe in a seperate thread?

I think I have one in my truck, in my trauma bag.  If I get a minute I may be able to pull it out and give a quick assessment.

[Stonewall]

Here ya go.  I think this is still relevant to the OP, so I don't know if it's necessary to make it a separate thread....

I found a good example online at a high quality tactical gear website (based out of Bragg):  Check out The Grey Group's site for medical kit.



The Individual Trauma Kit is intended to treat life threatening traumatic injuries. Such as amputations, punctures, deep cuts, and abrasions.

ITK (Individual Trauma Kit)
Bag (vacuum sealed bag)
Israeli Bandage 4"
Celox (small) --- Similar but better than Quick Clot
Gloves
Chem-Light
Z-Pack Bandage
2 rolls Kerlix 2"
Elastic Bandage 3"

This is more for combat or law enforcement.  But you can make these to fit your needs, i.e. SAR (the non-combat type).

Here is a larger kit.



The Individual Combat Medical Kit is designed for the rapid treatment of gunshot wounds, sucking chest wounds, and the control of major bleeding. It is intended to be carried on your person, or in a range bag. This kit is also designed to be self applied by the victim.

ICMK (Individual Combat Medical Kit)
Bag (vacuum sealed bag)
Tourniquet (Soft w/ Aluminum twist bar)
Celox (Large)
Gloves
Chem-Light
Z-Pack Gauze
Israeli Bandage (4")
Asherman Chest Seal
Roll Kerlix (2")
NPA

Notice the NPA, Celox and Asherman Chest Seal.  These are two things I would put in mine if I could afford it.  I have these in my larger bag, but not in an individual "hand out" pack.

[isuhawkeye]

The transformer series SAR vest actually cionverts from a vest into two thigh packs. 





I have written some info on these products here
http://www.halbrookassociates.com/halbrook_associatescom/2008/05/true-north-tran.html

For medical Thigh packs I love www.promedkits.com

[♠SARKID♠]

I just finished setting up my gear just the way I like it (only took me five years...) by adding a thigh rig.  The way I have my gear separated is by what I call my "ramp gear" and my "field duty" gear.  Mostly everything is carried in the ramp gear (Camelbak Mule MaxGear); its set up for UDF, airshows, night security, etc.  The leg bag holds my stuff that I would need on an extended forest hike (extra food, GTM handbook, spare poncho, and soon some more medical stuff).  It all comes with me, but I'll leave the leg bag in the vehicle if I don't need it.

I chose the leg bag because I hate having things across my chest and waist and my back was already taken by the ramp gear.  That pretty much left my leg as the only available real-estate.

Plus, as always, looks count.

[maverik]

I have a cheap condor one for comms which can hold my mini note book, 4 pencils,4 pens, 1 fat sharpie, a roll of scotch tape, 1 Icom (Ihave a headset if you're wondering how does he use that??) oh yeah and a twix bar 

[JayT]

I never really understood these for CAP work.

Every justification I've ever heard is that they allow 'me to get to my stuff fast.'

What do CAP ground teams need rapid access too?

[heliodoc]

^^^^^^^
Snickers and other pogey bait

[notaNCO forever]

I never really understood these for CAP work.

Every justification I've ever heard is that they allow 'me to get to my stuff fast.'

What do CAP ground teams need rapid access too?

Sometimes when you need a donut you need it as fast as possible no time to take off gear.

[hatentx]

I agree a Simple Assault pack, vest and a but pack work for everything I need.

As it comes to medical supplies i carry:
box of band aids
2 rolls or kerlex
tape
2 SAM Splints
2 Turnicits
MoleSkin
Electrolyte Powder/gel
2 Ace Bandages
Pressure Dressing
Scissors

Basically I am looking for things to stop someone from bleeding out, splint broken bones and bandage up broken cadets ie dehydration, cuts, scraps and such.  Do I know how to stick an IV, yes, can I stick you for tension pnemothoraux yes but again these are unlikly and being that I am not civilian certified I am not going to do so.  99% or the time you are going to be dealing with dehydration and blisters on Cadets.  I would venture to say I pack to much med gear but for me it works. 

If we see anything more than that then we are in a hurting to begin with. 

[JayT]

There's no such thing as too much medical gear........

[hatentx]

There's no such thing as too much medical gear........

May be but there is packing the right kind of gear.  If I packed my aid bag that I carry while I am down range that is a lot of over kill for what I am going to need for CAP.  I am not really going to see gun shots or severed limbs on a CAP mission.  Nor am I going to need to give someone a bag of fluids really.  If they are going to bleed out they will have done so well before I can get to them unless I see the a/c go down then 911 is the better choice and I will just control bleeding best as I can.  But for me to carry and abdominal wound pad in my CAP gear is just wasted space.  You can always argue that there is that one time, but if that was the case then pack me an AED and O2 bottle and everything else in the ER.  Again I am looking for fractures, control bleeding, preventing shock and the stuff of this nature.  Oh yeah and I carry a bunch of nose tubes.  I can never remember what they are called.  As long as they are breathing, not bleeding, not moving a broken limb and not in shock for me as a GTM I am happy and will pack accordingly.  The extra is for the Cadet that twisted an ankle or cut himself for what ever reason or is deydrated

[SJFedor]

There's no such thing as too much medical gear........

You've seen the picture of the cadet with the boombox duct taped to the back of his pack?

Imagine the guy walking around with an LP12 on the back of his pack. That might be too much....

But you're right, there's really no such thing as too much. There's only having too much of the stuff you're not qualified/proficient/trained to use.

[JayT]

Exactly.

We had a cadet show up with an OPA kit once, and thought they were finger splints. They were in his thigh bag.

[SJFedor]

Exactly.

We had a cadet show up with an OPA kit once, and through they were finger splints. They were in his thigh bag.

Ahahahaha. I just fell out of my chair on that one, but I seriously don't doubt it.

Though, no lie, an 8.0 ET tube makes one heck of a good straw when you wanna consume beverages in a hurry. 

[JayT]

Combitubes work also, althrough the flow tappers off near the end.

Does anyone have any experience with that quickclot stuff?

[sarmed1]

I use the thigh rig on my TEMS rig and am pretty happy with it, not to much bulk, just enough to immedietly manage a causulty.  Pretty similar to the one posted, but I packed mine myself.
years ago an SF medic in a regular leg guard unit clued me in on the "battle" pack concept of bag, or vacum packing all the stuff to manage a single casualty.  I have made them myself for numerous areas that I work in Fire, EMS, CAP and the military.  I have kit A & B. 
Kit A:
NPA w/ lubricating jelly
kerlex
5x9 dressing
ACE wrap
vaseline quaze (for chest wound seal)
Tape
Cravat
(its simple and cheap and easily "acquired")
(if I had easy access to quick clot and CAT tourniqets I would add them too)

Kit B:
100cc IV NSS
Tubing
Heplock
Start kit
16, 18, 20 gauge IV catheter
14 gauge 2" catheter
5cc syringe

I have seen quick clot used in animals and am convinced it works, femoral artery laceration and qucik clot with a pressure dressing stopped the bleeding. (in that case it was the older style powder rather than the pocuh/hackysack type but principally the same)

mk

[hatentx]

I have seen quick clot in real life.  Leg severed mid calf.  One guy strapped a turnicet on above the knee while the other was using the quick clot on the exposed stump.  I turned around to help move a casualty to a gator and by time i turned back to see what was going on with the person the bleeding was stopped.

[Eclipse]

Does that quick clot stuff cause any issues for the patient post-trauma when they are trying to clean things up permanently?

[SJFedor]

Does that quick clot stuff cause any issues for the patient post-trauma when they are trying to clean things up permanently?

I'll be sure to ask one of the trauma surgeons tonight, but from my limited observing (only seen 2 people that have had it used on them pre-arrival, we don't use it in facility) no, it didn't matter. Once they're in the OR, they can just rip the clot out if they need to.

[Flying Pig]

I personally didnt like the thigh rig.  It was uncomfortable.  I ended up switching to a Blackhawk backpack.  As it was I had a pistol on one thigh and flashbangs on the other thigh.  I had a body armor vest that had clips on the shoulders that attached to the backpack straps.  I could unclip one strap and the back pack would swing around in front of me.  Of course, we are rarely if ever in the position where we cannot just remove the back pack and arent concerned about running with our gear.
Hoonestly, stick with the backpacks.  Especially when you are tromping through the woods, having stuff strapped to your legs can really be a pain in my opinion.

[Johnny Yuma]

I personally didnt like the thigh rig.  It was uncomfortable.  I ended up switching to a Blackhawk backpack.  As it was I had a pistol on one thigh and flashbangs on the other thigh.  I had a body armor vest that had clips on the shoulders that attached to the backpack straps.  I could unclip one strap and the back pack would swing around in front of me.  Of course, we are rarely if ever in the position where we cannot just remove the back pack and arent concerned about running with our gear.
Hoonestly, stick with the backpacks.  Especially when you are tromping through the woods, having stuff strapped to your legs can really be a pain in my opinion.

Hey, I wanan go out on YOUR ground team!

Nothing says "here I am" like a couple flash bangs!

[cap235629]

oh yeah and a twix bar 

You were taught well.  In our Squadron it has become gospel that the team cannot do anything until Lt. Hobbs has his m&m's (plain!).

At the last training meeting 1 cadet brought them "just in case you forgot"

:clap: 

[SJFedor]

Does that quick clot stuff cause any issues for the patient post-trauma when they are trying to clean things up permanently?

I'll be sure to ask one of the trauma surgeons tonight, but from my limited observing (only seen 2 people that have had it used on them pre-arrival, we don't use it in facility) no, it didn't matter. Once they're in the OR, they can just rip the clot out if they need to.

Follow up:

It's effective stuff, but should be an absolute last line resort. The problem with that stuff is that, as it works, it has a really big exothermic reaction which can actually cause a lot of burns in the surrounding tissues.

[_]

Found this in my local REI store.  It's a Quick Clot Sponge.  The directions on the back shows the sponge being put over a wound and and a roller bandage being wrapped over it to hold it in place.  I guess they get around most concerns by making a product that's "for temporary external use."  They also had quick clot pads almost the same appearance as 4x4 pads.  They're supposed to be rolled up and inserted into the nose to control nose bleeds.

[Flying Pig]

I personally didnt like the thigh rig.  It was uncomfortable.  I ended up switching to a Blackhawk backpack.  As it was I had a pistol on one thigh and flashbangs on the other thigh.  I had a body armor vest that had clips on the shoulders that attached to the backpack straps.  I could unclip one strap and the back pack would swing around in front of me.  Of course, we are rarely if ever in the position where we cannot just remove the back pack and arent concerned about running with our gear.
Hoonestly, stick with the backpacks.  Especially when you are tromping through the woods, having stuff strapped to your legs can really be a pain in my opinion.

Hey, I wanan go out on YOUR ground team!

Nothing says "here I am" like a couple flash bangs!

  Ha.  Sorry.  I was just trying to explain that regardless of what it is in your thigh rig, they can be a pain.  But a Flash Bang sure beats a whistle and calling the victims name.  Of course, you may drive them deeper into the woods!

[openmind]

Does that quick clot stuff cause any issues for the patient post-trauma when they are trying to clean things up permanently?

I'll be sure to ask one of the trauma surgeons tonight, but from my limited observing (only seen 2 people that have had it used on them pre-arrival, we don't use it in facility) no, it didn't matter. Once they're in the OR, they can just rip the clot out if they need to.

Follow up:

It's effective stuff, but should be an absolute last line resort. The problem with that stuff is that, as it works, it has a really big exothermic reaction which can actually cause a lot of burns in the surrounding tissues.

We should probably have a separate thread on these HemoStatic Agents, but here is some quick info, which I present here since they are becoming much more widespread. (Evidence the pic above of them on the shelf at regular stores.)

1.  These items come in at least 3 major forms now:  Loose Granules, Contained Pouches/Sponges, and Treated Gauze/Treated Bandages.  Each has different risks and capabilities and are applicable to different wound types.  NOTE:  The risk of ExoThermic injury has been essentially eliminated from any product you purchase now.  Those risks, real but minor, were limited to the first generation of these agents.  Some of them still get warm, but not Hot.

2.  The Loose Granule types are the oldest, and should almost certainly be the LAST THING YOU TRY, either immediately before or after a Tourniquet, depending upon whether a Tourniquet is applicable to that wound site.  Have no doubt, you are introducing a foreign substance into a wound that CAN migrate away from the wound site.  The US Army has recently stopped their use of Granular HemoStatic Agents due to the risk of Hemolytic Thrombosis.  Essentially, a small bit of the Loose Granules could come loose, work its way up a vein, and cause a clot elsewhere in the body.  Not common, but it can cause a life-threatening complication.  This form of agent is truly meant for serious, life-threatening injuries, not common cut/scratch/bite wounds.

Brands include:  QuickClot, Celox, WoundStat

3.  The Contained Pouch/Sponge types are much safer, in that the material is contained and cannot migrate into the bloodstream.  For this reason they are more commonly sold over the counter and much more widely available.  They are also much more widely applicable to a variety of wounds.  For large lacerations, just pack the bag in like a wad of gauze and leave it.  The ER/ED docs will pull it out when the patient reaches care.  For smaller surface lacs the bag may simply be pressed against the wound continuously.  This works even on relatively small lacerations which normally wouldn't receive any HemoStatic treatment, reducing time to complete clotting and hence the time before hemostasis and a permanent dressing can be applied.  Be aware that use of these topical agents can lead you to dress a wound that needs stitches/staples and you should remember to use good judgement about having the patient seek proper medical care based on the wound characteristics (size, depth, location, etc.) OTHER than the amount of bleeding.

Brands include:  QuickClot ACS+, QuickClot Sport  NOTE: Celox-D is contained in a Dissolvable Bag, that does NOT contain the granules once introduced to the wound site.

4.  The Treated Gauze/Treated Bandage types are as safe as anything.  Their relative effectiveness may be lower than the Granular form, but they are undeniably easier to use.  Use them just like any other gauze packing or outer dressing.  They are not currently contraindicated for any normal skin lacerations, but as always, do not use them on the eyes and avoid using them in the mouth.  The Gauze form can be packed into a large wound just like normal gauze, then removed by the ER/ED docs.  The bandages can be used as normal.  When using either, remember that even with the HemoStatic Agent, it takes time for clotting to complete so leave the Gauze/Bandage in contact with the wound until the bleeding stops.

Brands include:  QuickClot Combat Gauze, Celox Gauze, Hemcon Bandage, Hemcon Kytostat BandAid, ActCel Hemostatic Gauze

Again, a full thread could be written on the uses and misuses of HemoStatic Agents in immediate aid situations.  I would remind everyone that you should always fully consider the ramifications of giving any medical treatment to anyone at any time.  You need to make the decision in an informed manner about whether they need this, and whether you will be the person to provide it.

All that said, my personal FAK that I carry on my person includes a couple of the small QuickClot Sport pouches and a Tourniquet, and my larger bags in my gear and in my car contain QuickClot Combat Gauze, Celox granules, Tourniquets, Israeli Battle Dressings, and lots of plain old cotton gauze.


openmind