Pledge of Allegiance wearing CAP field uniform

Started by Capt Lawrence, April 04, 2006, 04:46:46 PM

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flyguy06

I am a Police Offficer and we do not salute each other

Eclipse

Quote from: flyguy06 on September 05, 2006, 03:27:53 AM
I am a Police Offficer and we do not salute each other

But I'll bet you get the 1-finger salute all the time!   ;D

"That Others May Zoom"

PWK-GT

Quote from: Eclipse on September 05, 2006, 04:18:44 AM
Quote from: flyguy06 on September 05, 2006, 03:27:53 AM
I am a Police Offficer and we do not salute each other

But I'll bet you get the 1-finger salute all the time!   ;D

That's just how they hold their donuts from dropping....... ;D
"Is it Friday yet"


ncc1912

Quote from: Capt Lawrence on April 04, 2006, 04:46:46 PM
Would anyone like to give their opinion as to whether an officer in CAP field uniform should salute or place hand over heart during the Pledge of Allegiance.
Thanks.

Military customs and courtesies regarding respect payed to the flag dictate that when indoors we stand at attention and face the flag.  Outdoors we stand at attention, face the flag and salute.  Whether by the playing of To The Colors, the National Anthem, or the recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance, when in military uniform, you remain silent (unless, of course, you are the one singing the National Anthem).  Through this you can infer that the recitation is not conducive to CAP meetings if most of the attendees are in the OD green flight suits, BDUs or Blues... No one would (should) be reciting.

I would suggest the playing of the National Anthem if you have the means.

Getting back to the subject at hand:

I really don't want to get into the military/non-military uniform debate, so lets just deal with the facts.  Yes, the CAP field uniform is not a uniform of any branch of the U.S. Armed Forces, so if you want to say that the CAP field uniform is, therefor, not a "military uniform", so be it.  Yes, it is a uniform and CAP specific to boot, so CAP regulates what to do while wearing that uniform.

Since they, meaning NHQ, have not yet regulated the customs and courtesies pursuant to that uniform, one option is to revert back to the applicable law: Title 36, U.S. Code, Chapter 10:


  • § 172. Pledge of Allegiance to the flag; manner of delivery
    The Pledge of Allegiance to the Flag, "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of  America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty  and justice for all," should be rendered by standing at attention facing the flag with the right hand  over the heart. When not in uniform men should remove their headdress with their right hand and  hold it at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart. Persons in uniform should remain silent,  face the flag, and render the military salute.

Notice it states "uniform" and not "military uniform."  Make your own judgment call, but I would strongly suggest that it be a uniform (squadron, wing, or region-wide) judgment call until the CAP/CC or NHQ say otherwise.
//SIGNED//
JUSTIN B. BAIER, Major, CAP
"Dislocated Member"
Civil Air Patrol - United States Air Force Auxiliary
Active-duty USAF
Seoul, Republic of Korea

Al Sayre

This will probably start more arguements than it stops, but here it goes anyway...  Ok, for starters there are different rules for different situations.

Outdoors, In Uniform, In Formation Render Honors as directed and remain silent

Indoors, In Uniform, In Formation Render Honors as directed and remain silent

Outdoors, In Uniform, Not In Formation Face the Flag, Present Arms and remain silent

Indoors, In Uniform, Not In Formation Stand at attention and recite pledge

Outdoors, Not In Uniform, Not In Formation Face the Flag, Place right hand (and/ or hat) over heart and recite pledge

Indoors, Not In Uniform, Not In Formation Face the Flag, Place right hand (and/ or hat) over heart and recite pledge

The misconception is that you do not recite the pledge in uniform, however if you check your orientation materials you'll find that you do not recite the pledge In Formation.  This is because you are standing at attention and you do not talk at the position of attention when in a formation unless directly addressed by the commander of the formation.  You also do not talk when rendering present arms(except when reporting), hence remaining silent outdoors in uniform but not in formation.

On to the next part, I would say that it is appropriate to salute outdoors when wearing any military type CAP uniform (with a hat), the exception being the golf shirt uniform (non-military type) or the White over Grey if no hat is worn, as headgear are not required with these uniforms.
Lt Col Al Sayre
MS Wing Staff Dude
Admiral, Great Navy of the State of Nebraska
GRW #2787

ncc1912

#25
Quote from: Al Sayre on September 20, 2006, 02:36:25 PM
This will probably start more arguements than it stops, but here it goes anyway...  Ok, for starters there are different rules for different situations.

No argument.

It is just that a person in my position (AD Air Force) is more likely to follow the direction of a Staff or Technical Sergeant in a blue campaign hat.  If he/she says to keep your mouth shut, you keep your mouth shut... You do not recite the Pledge in uniform, period.

Many years later, those words still ring true.

Regarding the orientation materials, I assume you are referring to CAPP 50-9 Vol I which states:


  • You do not recite the Pledge of Allegiance while in military formation. If outdoors in military
    uniform during the pledge, you should stand at attention facing the flag and salute while remaining
    silent. If indoors in military-style uniform, stand at attention, face the flag but do not salute. You may recite the pledge indoors if not in formation.

     - emphasis added

This is a CAP publication, so it is only a misconception to CAP and in contradiction with the law, but only because the law doesn't take into account civil defence organizations such as CAP.

Persons in military uniform are to remain silent, because the Pledge, the removal of the hat, and the hand over the heart are civilian salutes to the flag. 

Those in the military have already made a higher pledge.  They've pledged their lives.
//SIGNED//
JUSTIN B. BAIER, Major, CAP
"Dislocated Member"
Civil Air Patrol - United States Air Force Auxiliary
Active-duty USAF
Seoul, Republic of Korea

SarDragon

Quote from: ncc1912 on September 20, 2006, 03:45:27 PM[redacted] This is a CAP publication, so it is only a misconception to CAP and in contradiction with the law, but only because the law doesn't take into account civil defence organizations such as CAP. [further redacted]

Show me the law.
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

capchiro

The case has been solved as Cleuseau (spelling?) would say.  The law can be found in United States Code Title 4, which pretty much encompasses the federal law regarding the US Flag..
Lt. Col. Harry E. Siegrist III, CAP
Commander
Sweetwater Comp. Sqdn.
GA154

SarDragon

Fair enough. I'm still going to recite the pledge in my CAP uniform, while not in formation. Note line 3 of my sig. Arrest me.  :P
Dave Bowles
Maj, CAP
AT1, USN Retired
50 Year Member
Mitchell Award (unnumbered)
C/WO, CAP, Ret

shorning

Quote from: SarDragon on September 21, 2006, 02:23:06 AM
Fair enough. I'm still going to recite the pledge in my CAP uniform, while not in formation. Note line 3 of my sig. Arrest me.  :P

You have the right to...oh, nevermind...

ncc1912

Quote from: capchiro on September 20, 2006, 05:36:25 PM
The case has been solved as Cleuseau (spelling?) would say.  The law can be found in United States Code Title 4, which pretty much encompasses the federal law regarding the US Flag..

Thank you.

I quoted it in a prior posting, but I sited the source incorrectly.  Perhaps it was re-designated.

TITLE 4 > CHAPTER 1 > ยง 4
//SIGNED//
JUSTIN B. BAIER, Major, CAP
"Dislocated Member"
Civil Air Patrol - United States Air Force Auxiliary
Active-duty USAF
Seoul, Republic of Korea

O-Rex

Let's put this in perspective:

At a recent memorial ceremony for the anniversary of the 9/11 tragedy, uniformed NYC Police Officers and Firefighters saluted the flag.  Last time I checked, NYC was not part of the US Military: nobody said anything.

Boy Scouts  have a modified salute: nobody says anything.

Veteran's organization (AL, VFW) members render salutes when wearing their distinctive "overseas" caps: nobody dares to say anything.

New Corporate costumes now feature hats (which kind of raises the question what a "military style uniform" is) so many folks would feel funny if they didn't salute.

Should the member in the golf shirt or blazer combo salute? probably not.

Should the member in a uniform in which the only basic difference from an Air Force uniform is the color of the shirt, or the placement of buttons, render a salute?  Probably so.

Perhaps NB or some committee will address the issue, but it seems we're splitting hairs here.

As for the "Real-Military" concept, I always say: a Captain is the Air Force, A Captain in a Police Department, and a CAP Captain are all "real" in their respective organizations.

davedove

Quote from: ncc1912 on September 20, 2006, 03:45:27 PM

Persons in military uniform are to remain silent, because the Pledge, the removal of the hat, and the hand over the heart are civilian salutes to the flag. 

Those in the military have already made a higher pledge.  They've pledged their lives.

It was explained to me once that joining the military and wearing the uniform is your pledge.
David W. Dove, Maj, CAP
Deputy Commander for Seniors
Personnel/PD/Asst. Testing Officer
Ground Team Leader
Frederick Composite Squadron
MER-MD-003