Certificate of Proficiency Senior Ribbon?

[tjaxe]

I went out to Vanguard to look around at the different awards and such (I'm my squadron's new supply officer so I thought I'd check to see what's out there) and I saw this Certificate of Proficiency Senior ribbon (CAP0734).  I'm confused.  I don't see anything about such a ribbon in 39-3 and CAP Knowledgebase is confusing me more saying it was an old cadet award and is now the Davis award.  Can someone help de-confuse me?     Is the Certificate of Proficiency ribbon currently authorized?  If so, is it for completing Level II?

Thanks!

[James Shaw]

I went out to Vanguard to look around at the different awards and such (I'm my squadron's new supply officer so I thought I'd check to see what's out there) and I saw this Certificate of Proficiency Senior ribbon (CAP0734).  I'm confused.  I don't see anything about such a ribbon in 39-3 and CAP Knowledgebase is confusing me more saying it was an old cadet award and is now the Davis award.  Can someone help de-confuse me?     Is the Certificate of Proficiency ribbon currently authorized?  If so, is it for completing Level II?

Thanks!

That is the old COP ribbon and medal and is not issued anymore. Only for those who had previously earned it.

[jimmydeanno]

The CoP ribbon is an old cadet award that is authorized for wear by those who earned it back when it was still around.  

The CoP that seniors used to get is just a certificate and has been replaced by the Benjamin O' Davis Award.  You don't get a ribbon for it, but you do get the leadership ribbon (purple and white) for getting a technician rating.

[tjaxe]

So it sounds like it's misnamed as a senior ribbon when it should be labeled a cadet ribbon?

[swamprat86]

Because the only people who could still wear it now would be former cadets that are seniors, it is listed as a senior ribbon even though it was earned as a cadet.

[lordmonar]

Maybe we should change the leadership ribbon to the "Benjamin Davis" award and stop awarding it for getting your tech rateing.

Most specialty tracks have some sort of badge related to them so a ribbon is a little like double dipping and we currently do not have anything for getting your level II.

No additional bling, no less bling...just a slight change to when the ribbon is awarded.

[tjaxe]

^ that's a great idea!

[SilverEagle2]

Since it is required to have a tech rating to complete level II and get the B.O.D. Award I agree that the Leadership Award should become the B.O.D. Award. The only problem is what to do with the attachments for those that get a Senior or Master level without completing Level II.

Since you mention the respective PD Badge however, we could skip the attachments all together and solve the problem. I think you are on to something.

[swamprat86]

That would require them making more badges.  Not all the sepcialty tracks have badges and, unlike the ribbon, the most you would be able to see on a uniform would be two tracks.

I am more for going in the opposite direction.  Use the attachments on the ribbons and get rid of the badges.  It worked well for years before they started making badges for the other tracks.

[SilverEagle2]

So a compromise then.

Instead of demonstrating how many tracks you are working on, Make the ribbon the B.O.D. Award (which requires a tech rating) and then allow an (1) attachment for the highest PD track rating attained.

This would encourage more to complete Level II as they cannot denote the PD track rating until Level II is complete.

I am not sure we all need to know the number of PD tracks you are working on. Not to mention, you can only have three silver star attachments anyway so that is only one more annotation than the number of badges you can wear anyway.

Make it like the GRW Award. Complete ACSC get a bronze start, complete AWC, upgrade to silver star.

Looks better too.

My 2 cents

[jimmydeanno]

... Not to mention, you can only have three silver star attachments anyway so that is only one more annotation than the number of badges you can wear anyway.

You can throw on a second ribbon for the fourth rating...

[lordmonar]

Since it is required to have a tech rating to complete level II and get the B.O.D. Award I agree that the Leadership Award should become the B.O.D. Award. The only problem is what to do with the attachments for those that get a Senior or Master level without completing Level II.

Since you mention the respective PD Badge however, we could skip the attachments all together and solve the problem. I think you are on to something.

You fix that problem by requiring certain PD levels to get higher specality tracks.  CP requires a Level II to get Senior Rated and Level III to get Master.

A more involed fix....but you can easily do it by changing the PD reg.

And I would remove the atachments from the leadership award if it moved to the B.O.D. award.

[lordmonar]

That would require them making more badges.  Not all the sepcialty tracks have badges and, unlike the ribbon, the most you would be able to see on a uniform would be two tracks.

I am more for going in the opposite direction.  Use the attachments on the ribbons and get rid of the badges.  It worked well for years before they started making badges for the other tracks.

So make more badges.

By my count we would only have to make four new badges:
Flight Operations
Srandardization/Evaluation
Plans and Programs
Organizational Excellence

[SilverEagle2]

You can throw on a second ribbon for the fourth rating...

True...but silly.

And I would remove the atachments from the leadership award if it moved to the B.O.D. award.

So would I.

[Hawk200]

Not all the sepcialty tracks have badges ...

Or, more accurately, not all tracks have badges, yet. There was an IT badge before the criteria for the track even came out. You can bet that it won't be long before there is an Org Ex badge. As to when, my guess is before the end of the year. Before someone demands a reference, it's only speculation on my part, not a provable fact.

Currently, there are fourteen badges listed in 39-1. Vanguard has eighteen. There aren't many missing. There are other tracks that don't have specialty badges, but do have specialty insignia.

...unlike the ribbon, the most you would be able to see on a uniform would be two tracks.

The most you could see anyway. On blues, only two are authorized on the uniform at any given time. On the white shirt, only one.

Most specialty tracks have some sort of badge related to them so a ribbon is a little like double dipping ...

That's the part that has always bothered me. I guess it's just all that time in the military where you don't get more than one award for the same achievement, accomplishment, action, etc. PD badges can tell you what a person is qualified in at a glance. Attachments to a ribbon don't really you tell you anything, other than "I got a bunch..."

[ThorntonOL]

So what are we talking about? The cadet ribbon for seniors who earned it as a cadet or whether or not we need ribbons for specialty tracks.
Personally I have no problem with the ribbon as its not to common in our area, (don't think anyone local has it really.) and it's almost nonexistent except for the few stil in CAP who can wear it.
So other than a bit of history to peak one's interest there's not to much to discuss.

[lordmonar]

So what are we talking about? The cadet ribbon for seniors who earned it as a cadet or whether or not we need ribbons for specialty tracks.
Personally I have no problem with the ribbon as its not to common in our area, (don't think anyone local has it really.) and it's almost nonexistent except for the few still in CAP who can wear it.
So other than a bit of history to peak one's interest there's not to much to discuss.

The original question was if the COP ribbon that vanguard sells is the same as the "certificate of proficiency" that senior used to get for completing Level II which is now know as the Benjamin O. Davis award.

That segued into a discussion about should we stop giving the leadership award for getting a technician rating and award the leadership ribbon as the Benjamin Davis award.

[Gunner C]

Please, no more badges and no more ribbons.

[lordmonar]

Please, no more badges and no more ribbons.

Read what I said.   No additional ribbons....just change its name and what we are awarding it for.

[Gunner C]

Read what I said.  I was reinforcing what you said.

[bosshawk]

OK, you uniform experts: here is a valid question.  I earned the Benjamin O. Davis award last summer.  When I looked to see if I should buy a ribbon, I didn't find one under that name.  I did see one for the Certificate of Proficiency, which is how this award is listed in my file on eServices.

Is there a ribbon for the Davis award?  If not, should I buy one for the CoP?  Me, who never wears ribbons except the ones that I earned in the RM.

[lordmonar]

No and No.

Currently there is no Benjamin O. Davis ribbon that goes with the certivicate.

The COP ribbon is for the OLD cadet program and not for the B.O.D. award for Level II that used to be called the certificate of proficency.

[SilverEagle2]

Correct...There is no ribbon for the Benjamin O. Davis Award a.k.a. Certificate of Proficiency (for Seniors) in eServices.

What some of us have been advocating is instead of getting the Leadership Ribbon for simply getting a tech rating, that they step the ribbon up one step and make it the Leadership/Benjamin O. Davis/COP for Seniors Ribbon.

That way each Level of PD completed comes with a ribbon. Currently Level II does not have a ribbon. And rather than creating a new one, we do the above.


As stated above, item CAP0734 at Capmart is for an obsolete award that was given to Cadets some time ago. Seniors who earned it as a Cadet can still wear it. It is not for the COP for Seniors.

[bosshawk]

Guys: thanks for the info.  For us old x------s, these things are pretty arcane.  Guess that my white aviator shirt will just have to be happy with two sets of wings and a Master badge in ES.

[MIKE]

Guys: thanks for the info.  For us old x------s, these things are pretty arcane.  Guess that my white aviator shirt will just have to be happy with two sets of wings and a Master badge in ES.

You do know you can't do that, right?

On topic:  Weren't they calling the Leadership Ribbon the Benjamin O. Davis Leadership Ribbon now, or something... I remember thinking it was weird with the CoP being renamed also.

[SilverEagle2]

On topic:  Weren't they calling the Leadership Ribbon the Benjamin O. Davis Leadership Ribbon now, or something... I remember thinking it was weird with the CoP being renamed also.

Nope, they did not. However they should.

[BillB]

Guess my ribbon rack will keep the COP ribbon with it's three clasps.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

That would require them making more badges.  Not all the sepcialty tracks have badges and, unlike the ribbon, the most you would be able to see on a uniform would be two tracks.

I am more for going in the opposite direction.  Use the attachments on the ribbons and get rid of the badges.  It worked well for years before they started making badges for the other tracks.

So make more badges.

By my count we would only have to make four new badges:
Flight Operations
Srandardization/Evaluation
Plans and Programs
Organizational Excellence

Badges? BADGES? WE DON'T NEED NO STINKING BADGES!

[bosshawk]

Mike: you are correct. I noticed that I cannot wear my Army wings, so guess that I will be have to be happy with my CAP bling.

[Gunner C]

Badges? BADGES? WE DON'T NEED NO STINKING BADGES!

:clap:

[BGNightfall]

That would require them making more badges.  Not all the sepcialty tracks have badges and, unlike the ribbon, the most you would be able to see on a uniform would be two tracks.

I am more for going in the opposite direction.  Use the attachments on the ribbons and get rid of the badges.  It worked well for years before they started making badges for the other tracks.

So make more badges.

By my count we would only have to make four new badges:
Flight Operations
Srandardization/Evaluation
Plans and Programs
Organizational Excellence

Badges? BADGES? WE DON'T NEED NO STINKING BADGES!

Aaah... been waiting for this forever.  Now I can finally be at peace.

[SarDragon]

For the full, original, quote:

Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges. 

[Gunner C]

For the full, original, quote:

Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges. 

All I need now is a camp fire and some beans.  :angel:

[BuckeyeDEJ]

For the full, original, quote:

Badges? We ain't got no badges. We don't need no badges. I don't have to show you any stinking badges. 

All I need now is a camp fire and some beans.  :angel:

And the letters "GOV" across the back of my mess-dress jacket.

[MIKE]

Topic or lock.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Maybe it's time to revamp things a little.

The Membership Award is a serious gimme. You can almost get it just for showing up. Why not scrap it? The butterbars, or any grade at all, seem to recognize completion of Level I. You have to have CPPT, OPSEC, EEO and the Orientation Course, basically, to even be a member.

Why not make the Leadership Award the technical-training ribbon that it really is, anyway? After all, the ribbon denotes at least a technician level in a specialty track.

The Loening, Garber and Wilson stand on their own merit.

The Red Service Ribbon could/should be renamed, incidentally, especially since "red" means nothing anymore. Let's hear it for "service ribbon" instead, or maybe "longevity ribbon." Something.

As for the Cadet COP? It's a holdover. I wonder how many current members are entitled to wear it. (I'm sure there are more than there are those who can wear wartime service ribbons.)

[Hawk200]

Maybe it's time to revamp things a little.

The Membership Award is a serious gimme. You can almost get it just for showing up. Why not scrap it? The butterbars, or any grade at all, seem to recognize completion of Level I. You have to have CPPT, OPSEC, EEO and the Orientation Course, basically, to even be a member.

With a formalized course, the ribbon would have more meaning. And most of our new members are woefully unprepared for what they end up having to do. A lot of people have joined, been handed a pamphlet on a specialty track, and were told, "Congratulations! You're the new ES/PA/CP/Admin/Operations/etc./etc/etc. Officer". Is there anyplace else that does this? Never been like that at any job I've ever worked.

The stuff you mentioned should be part of a formalized setting, and shown some attention. Maybe a rundown on the various tracks available, additional requirements pertaining to some tracks, some history on CAP, what's going to be expected. Should be enough to give some meaning to that one ribbon. (If everyone is stuck on keeping it. I'd give it up.)

Why not make the Leadership Award the technical-training ribbon that it really is, anyway? After all, the ribbon denotes at least a technician level in a specialty track.

Why even have a "technical training" ribbon at all? You get a badge for each rating in a track. It's a double dip that's pretty obvious. Ditch the ribbon, it doesn't really show anything. Each badge gets a star, then a wreath. A ribbon is pointless, except for fruit salad hounds. (I'd have no heartburn giving that up either.)

The Loening, Garber and Wilson stand on their own merit.

They do, but why three separate ones? Wilson, I could live with, but I'm not married to it. I'd be all for a single ribbon with devices for each level.

The Red Service Ribbon could/should be renamed, incidentally, especially since "red" means nothing anymore. Let's hear it for "service ribbon" instead, or maybe "longevity ribbon." Something.

I can see two sides to it. Heads, there aren't any other color service ribbons, so having a "red" one doesn't seem necessary. Tails, it's a ribbon named under tradition. Tradition is important.

As for renaming, the military doesn't rename decs or ribbons. Once it's approved, it's set in stone. Ribbons and decs can close out, or are no longer awarded, but they're never renamed. It eliminates confusion of "Well, it's this ribbon.", "No, it's called that this week." We don't need to give ourself that problem in the first place.

Maybe bring back Green and Blue with the original criteria? (Start with Green, replace with Red when eligible, replace with Blue when reached). Also traditional, but might be an annoyance when you have to update your rack. Would really stink if you've got Ultrathins (Or similar. Not endorsing "Ultrathin" just using them as an example). Not suggesting, just food for thought.

As for the Cadet COP? It's a holdover. I wonder how many current members are entitled to wear it. (I'm sure there are more than there are those who can wear wartime service ribbons.)

As I don't have one, I'm a little ignorant. Is that the same as a Falcon? If it is, are both the Falcon and the highest cadet award permitted at the same time? If not, then you aren't really eliminating anything, as they can just wear their highest cadet award. Nothing reduced.

If we want to reduce, we're gonna have to make some hard choices, and everyone has to accept some sacrafices. Unfortunately, there are many people that want to reduce ribbons for others, but don't want to give up any of their salad. That's hypocritical. Either reduce/eliminate or forget it.

The old attitude that everyone should be able to have a number of awards regardless of the merits is dead. We shouldn't be keeping that zombie around. A ribbon for initial entry? Not a bad idea, but make it worth something. We need to quit with the "gimmes".

[AlphaSigOU]

As for the Cadet COP? It's a holdover. I wonder how many current members are entitled to wear it. (I'm sure there are more than there are those who can wear wartime service ribbons.)

As I don't have one, I'm a little ignorant. Is that the same as a Falcon? If it is, are both the Falcon and the highest cadet award permitted at the same time? If not, then you aren't really eliminating anything, as they can just wear their highest cadet award. Nothing reduced.

All you old cadink dinosaurs, please correct me...

The Cadet COP basic ribbon was the equivalent of the Mitchell Award BITD. Completion of certain achievements added one, two or three bronze clasps. A cadet COP with three bronze clasps was the equivalent of the Spaatz in the days when dinosaurs roamed the earth. 

You only keep the highest cadet milestone award or achievement ribbon when you succumb to the dark side; the Falcon Award, when it was awarded was considered a cadet milestone.

[Gunner C]

IIRC, that is true.

[Cecil DP]

Actually, you didn't get the "Falcon ( Borman) Award until you became a senior member.

[BuckeyeDEJ]

Maybe it's time to revamp things a little.

The Membership Award is a serious gimme. You can almost get it just for showing up. Why not scrap it? The butterbars, or any grade at all, seem to recognize completion of Level I. You have to have CPPT, OPSEC, EEO and the Orientation Course, basically, to even be a member.

With a formalized course, the ribbon would have more meaning. And most of our new members are woefully unprepared for what they end up having to do. A lot of people have joined, been handed a pamphlet on a specialty track, and were told, "Congratulations! You're the new ES/PA/CP/Admin/Operations/etc./etc/etc. Officer". Is there anyplace else that does this? Never been like that at any job I've ever worked.

The stuff you mentioned should be part of a formalized setting, and shown some attention. Maybe a rundown on the various tracks available, additional requirements pertaining to some tracks, some history on CAP, what's going to be expected. Should be enough to give some meaning to that one ribbon. (If everyone is stuck on keeping it. I'd give it up.)

Agreed. I think there should be much more to getting butterbars than just showing up and doing a bare minimum, save for showing up for six months. Military officers get a lot more training and know how to be an officer before they become one.

The rest of your post, I tend to agree with.

[RogueLeader]

Why even have a "technical training" ribbon at all? You get a badge for each rating in a track. It's a double dip that's pretty obvious. Ditch the ribbon, it doesn't really show anything. Each badge gets a star, then a wreath. A ribbon is pointless, except for fruit salad hounds. (I'd have no heartburn giving that up either.)

1)  Ribbon is cheaper than badges
2)  Some of thebadges look pretty bad
3)  Ribbon looks good
4)  Can show more advancements- up to three on a ribbon and only two badges
5)  A ribbon takes up less space, leaving it with less clutter.

[Hawk200]

1)  Ribbon is cheaper than badges

Maybe so, but the badge will last longer, and you can tell the specialty track. Ribbon tells you what? "I got one (or two or three)".

2)  Some of thebadges look pretty bad

Matter of opinion. Some think so, others don't. I will admit that, initially, I was confused as to which were what, but never thought them ugly. Eye of the beholder.

3)  Ribbon looks good
4)  Can show more advancements- up to three on a ribbon and only two badges

But it doesn't tell you anything useful. A ribbon with three stars tells you a person has ratings in three specialty tracks. Which ones?  One look at a badge and you can tell the person has a Senior Cadet Programs rating, or a Master in Personnnel, or a Basic in Safety.  A ribbon won't. If you really want the ribbon rack to grow like weeds, make a ribbon for each track, at least you could tell which tracks the person has. (Just joking there, folks, I would not legitimately advocate this.)

5)  A ribbon takes up less space, leaving it with less clutter.

Less clutter how? There's a freaking ribbon for just about everything as it is. People will end up with a dozen easily. The sad thing is how many people ask what they all are. Badges are pretty distinct, they tell exactly what the person is capable of doing. Ribbons don't, never will.

[Chaplain Sam]

The original question had to do with the Certificate of Proficiency (COP) Ribbon that Vanguard sells (CAP0734).

This was a cadet training ribbon awarded between Dec 1954 to Mar 1964.  It was the top cadet training award of its day, equivalent of today's Mitchell Award.  Earning it would get you your first stripe if you joined the Air Force.  There were only about 600 ever awarded.  I was awarded mine in October 1963 and it was signed by General Curtis Lemay.  There were three achievements that you could earn after the COP but you didn't get any extra ribbons, you just added clasps to the COP ribbon.  Also in those days, rank was not automatic with the achievements.  A cadet could have the COP with all three clasps and still not be an officer.  Each squadron was authorized only so many officers and NCOs and you had to wait for a vacancy to open up to be promoted and the top rank for a cadet commander in a large squadron was major.

It is now considered a legacy ribbon worn by "vintage" senior members.

[tjaxe]

The original question had to do with the Certificate of Proficiency (COP) Ribbon that Vanguard sells (CAP0734).

This was a cadet training ribbon awarded between Dec 1954 to Mar 1964.  It was the top cadet training award of its day, equivalent of today's Mitchell Award.  Earning it would get you your first stripe if you joined the Air Force.  There were only about 600 ever awarded.  I was awarded mine in October 1963 and it was signed by General Curtis Lemay.  There were three achievements that you could earn after the COP but you didn't get any extra ribbons, you just added clasps to the COP ribbon.  Also in those days, rank was not automatic with the achievements.  A cadet could have the COP with all three clasps and still not be an officer.  Each squadron was authorized only so many officers and NCOs and you had to wait for a vacancy to open up to be promoted and the top rank for a cadet commander in a large squadron was major.

It is now considered a legacy ribbon worn by "vintage" senior members.

I wonder how many seniors are wearing this award when they shouldn't be.  I don't think it's very difficult to get confused since there is currently a Certificate of Proficiency and the ribbon is listed in the senior awards.  Maybe Vanguard should add a comment to the product.  Or maybe it's just confusing to me. 

[SarDragon]

Wouldn't it qualify as "highest cadet award earned"? I would certainly accept its wear on that basis.

YMMV.

[Hawk200]

Wouldn't it qualify as "highest cadet award earned"? I would certainly accept its wear on that basis.

YMMV.

I think TJ is pointing out that seniors receive a "Certificate of Proficiency" (completion of Level II, now called the Benjamin O Davis award), and since there is a "Certificate of Proficiency" ribbon on Vanguard's website, there might be seniors that erroneously think that the COP ribbon is the award for Level II instead of the Leadership ribbon. I believe the assumption is implied that said seniors were never cadets.

With some seniors, I could see it happening.

[tjaxe]

Wouldn't it qualify as "highest cadet award earned"? I would certainly accept its wear on that basis.

YMMV.

I think TJ is pointing out that seniors receive a "Certificate of Proficiency" (completion of Level II, now called the Benjamin O Davis award), and since there is a "Certificate of Proficiency" ribbon on Vanguard's website, there might be seniors that erroneously think that the COP ribbon is the award for Level II instead of the Leadership ribbon. I believe the assumption is implied that said seniors were never cadets.

With some seniors, I could see it happening.

Bingo.

[arajca]

Wouldn't it qualify as "highest cadet award earned"? I would certainly accept its wear on that basis.

YMMV.

I think TJ is pointing out that seniors receive a "Certificate of Proficiency" (completion of Level II, now called the Benjamin O Davis award), and since there is a "Certificate of Proficiency" ribbon on Vanguard's website, there might be seniors that erroneously think that the COP ribbon is the award for Level II instead of the Leadership ribbon. I believe the assumption is implied that said seniors were never cadets.

With some seniors, I could see it happening.

The only recognition for completing Level II is a piece of paper. The Leadership Ribbon is awarded for acheiving a Technician rating in a specialty track.

[Hawk200]

Wouldn't it qualify as "highest cadet award earned"? I would certainly accept its wear on that basis.

YMMV.

I think TJ is pointing out that seniors receive a "Certificate of Proficiency" (completion of Level II, now called the Benjamin O Davis award), and since there is a "Certificate of Proficiency" ribbon on Vanguard's website, there might be seniors that erroneously think that the COP ribbon is the award for Level II instead of the Leadership ribbon. I believe the assumption is implied that said seniors were never cadets.

With some seniors, I could see it happening.

The only recognition for completing Level II is a piece of paper. The Leadership Ribbon is awarded for acheiving a Technician rating in a specialty track.

Point taken. There are people that will think that the COP ribbon is what they can wear if they get the COP. I've seen far worse doozies.

[RogueLeader]

With some seniors, I could see it happening.

Some who even know better can fall for it.  I did, then realized that it was: Oh, my bad.

Anybody want a couple of new COP ribbons