"eyes"-"click sir!"

Started by michigansergeant, March 29, 2006, 05:18:25 PM

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

RiverAux

"click sir"?????  I am very tempted to say that only the Marines would come up with something that silly, but I won't. 

JoeTomasone

I'm visiting one of our Squadrons right now and they just used the "Eyes!" - "SNAP!" to regain the attention of cadets who became chatty and stopped paying attention during a lesson.   I'm not sure that I either like or dislike it.


Camas


Quote from: JoeTomasone on May 06, 2008, 12:17:08 AM
I'm visiting one of our Squadrons right now and they just used the "Eyes!" - "SNAP!" to regain the attention of cadets who became chatty and stopped paying attention during a lesson.   I'm not sure that I either like or dislike it.
I think the command "at ease" should suffice as pointed out.

Quote from: cadetnelson on May 14, 2006, 01:40:33 AM
Well, pardon me for weighing in with what my squadron does. 
And this from a cadet airman?  Try being a bit more respectful.  Remember, most of these posters are officers and, just maybe, they might know what they're talking about.

fquinonez

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on April 08, 2008, 02:38:43 AM
Simple rule of thumb: If it's in the Air Force D&C manual, it's satisfactory. If it's not, chances are fairly good it's UNSAT.

Squadrons really should have PRINT copies of the D&C book, and I don't mean "here's the digital copy, now you go print it." That's not going to be good enough.

This is a great opinion, however, the Air Force D&C manual has many inconsistancies as well.  Alsl, when you look at the make up of the organization, there are many members who were taught basic drill & ceremonies from older CAP texts that were based off of older Air Force manuals.  I for one have found issues with the new AUSAF D&C manuals.  Also, I was taught drill in the days of obliques.  Most under 40 have no idea what I just said, unless you were in the Corps.

fquinonez

As an interesting note for those that have pointed out that this must be a "Marine thing", this is introduced during Marine Corps bott camp in the receiving phase.  When you get 200+ rag tag civilians from all walks of life in one place, they seem to form a mob.  using the "eyeballs-click" sequence is the beginning of forming this mob into an orderly military unit.  The sequence is NOT carried on through bootcamp and is typically removed from the vocabiulary by the end of first phase/week4. 

With the type of training and time frames that we are accustomed to in CAP, there should be no need for sequences such as these.  We do have time for individual instruction, and I have never seen a group of 200 outside of an encampment or NCSA.  That being said, those cadets should already have some of the basic D&C training required, so as to not have a need to use this type of command sequence.

My 2 cents...

afgeo4

Quote from: fquinonez on June 10, 2008, 09:38:33 PM
As an interesting note for those that have pointed out that this must be a "Marine thing", this is introduced during Marine Corps bott camp in the receiving phase.  When you get 200+ rag tag civilians from all walks of life in one place, they seem to form a mob.  using the "eyeballs-click" sequence is the beginning of forming this mob into an orderly military unit.  The sequence is NOT carried on through bootcamp and is typically removed from the vocabiulary by the end of first phase/week4. 

With the type of training and time frames that we are accustomed to in CAP, there should be no need for sequences such as these.  We do have time for individual instruction, and I have never seen a group of 200 outside of an encampment or NCSA.  That being said, those cadets should already have some of the basic D&C training required, so as to not have a need to use this type of command sequence.

My 2 cents...
We probably could have used it at McGuire AFB last summer, but I digress.
GEORGE LURYE

Hawk200

Quote from: Camas on May 06, 2008, 01:25:40 AM

Quote from: JoeTomasone on May 06, 2008, 12:17:08 AM
I'm visiting one of our Squadrons right now and they just used the "Eyes!" - "SNAP!" to regain the attention of cadets who became chatty and stopped paying attention during a lesson.   I'm not sure that I either like or dislike it.
I think the command "at ease" should suffice as pointed out.

I'd agree. Heard that used in both the Air Force and the Army, so it wouldn't hurt for them to learn it that way.

ADCAPer

Quote from: Hawk200 on June 10, 2008, 11:48:07 PM
I'd agree. Heard that used in both the Air Force and the Army, so it wouldn't hurt for them to learn it that way.

Well, for what it's worth, 20 years ADAF, and I never heard this at all. Most likely because it's not right. This sounds like something that someone dreamed up because they thought that it made them sound cool. I don't understand why there are so many units that go their own way instead of just sticking to teaching the cadets the policies and procedures that are in the regulations. Or even better, we've found that teaching the cadets how to navigate, and how to interpret the regulations ensures that they know when someone is feeding them a line of crap. I can tell you this much, if someone came into my unit and tried this it would definitely hurt something...and that would most likely be there pride, because they would be corrected immediately.

Quote from: fquinonez on June 10, 2008, 09:30:44 PM
This is a great opinion, however, the Air Force D&C manual has many inconsistancies as well.

Okay, I'll bite. These inconsistencies would be...?

Eclipse

Quote from: ADCAPer on June 13, 2008, 01:15:32 AMI don't understand why there are so many units that go their own way instead of just sticking to teaching the cadets the policies and procedures that are in the regulations.

Because making things up based on something cool you saw in a movie is way easier than actually reading the manuals.

"That Others May Zoom"

Taber4

Whenever we use "eyes" in my squadron the members all reply with "snap sir/ma'am/sgt/airman/whatever".  When we are all getting buckled in to go someplace in a car or van the drivers asks "Is everyone buckled up" or something like that and the passengers reply with "click" because of the sound of the buckle. 

When someone calls "eyes" they are trying to get everyone's attention so that they may say something important or relevant to orders.  I personally like the call of "eyes" and don't care if people reply differently to it.  Just to make things clear but the Drill and Ceremonies Manual doesn't cover everything under the sun.  They don't tell people how to run their meetings or how to conduct activities and no one complains about it.  I don't see this as anything different.
Wes Clark
C/CMSgt
MA-071: Pilgrim Squadron, Plymouth MA
Squadron First Sergeant
Alpha Color Guard Commander

JayT

Quote from: Taber4 on June 16, 2008, 04:48:08 PM
Whenever we use "eyes" in my squadron the members all reply with "snap sir/ma'am/sgt/airman/whatever".  When we are all getting buckled in to go someplace in a car or van the drivers asks "Is everyone buckled up" or something like that and the passengers reply with "click" because of the sound of the buckle. 

When someone calls "eyes" they are trying to get everyone's attention so that they may say something important or relevant to orders.  I personally like the call of "eyes" and don't care if people reply differently to it.  Just to make things clear but the Drill and Ceremonies Manual doesn't cover everything under the sun.  They don't tell people how to run their meetings or how to conduct activities and no one complains about it.  I don't see this as anything different.

It's radically different.

The Drill and Ceremonies Manual doesn't cover everything under the sun, but it covers everything related to Drill and Ceremonies. If you need to talk to your flight, follow the book, put them to Rest, and talk.

Do you think that CAP should prepare cadets for military service?
"Eagerness and thrill seeking in others' misery is psychologically corrosive, and is also rampant in EMS. It's a natural danger of the job. It will be something to keep under control, something to fight against."

jimmydeanno

Quote from: JThemann on June 16, 2008, 06:20:19 PM
Do you think that CAP should prepare cadets for military service?

Depends on what you mean. 

Is the goal of the CP to prepare youth for military service - no. 
Is the goal to orient them to the military - no. 

Quote1-1. The Cadet Program's Mission & Goals. The mission of the Civil Air Patrol Cadet Program is to provide the youth of our nation with a quality program that enhances their leadership skills through an interest in aviation, and simultaneously provide service to the United States Air Force and the local community.

Do the leadership skills that are learned transfer to the military easily, sure, but they do to other fields too.

I think that a lot of the cadets that join are interested in the military and like many of the things the CP can entail, but it is not the goal of the CAP CP to act as a military recruiting service or accession program.  No matter how much "CAP Experience" a cadet has whatever branch they join will "re-train" them on how they want things done.



If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill

mikeylikey

^ Agree with Jimmy's points. 

Use the D&C manual and phrases contained within.  Lets not create more "My SQD uses this phrase" and "we say this at Encampment" items.  There is correct verbage and then there are words either made up or "heard on television or the movies".  Trust me when I say what is heard on television or at the the theatre relating to military terminology, is usually never heard in the military. 

Cadets are real good at trying to bring military verbage and terminology into the local SQD.  When I overhear things like "eyes, click....blah blah blah", I always ask where they got that from, then ask them to look up to correct way to address others. 

Lets stick to the D&C manual, and use commands contained within.   
What's up monkeys?

ADCAPer

Quote from: Taber4 on June 16, 2008, 04:48:08 PM
Whenever we use "eyes" in my squadron the members all reply with "snap sir/ma'am/sgt/airman/whatever".  When we are all getting buckled in to go someplace in a car or van the drivers asks "Is everyone buckled up" or something like that and the passengers reply with "click" because of the sound of the buckle. 

When someone calls "eyes" they are trying to get everyone's attention so that they may say something important or relevant to orders.  I personally like the call of "eyes" and don't care if people reply differently to it.  Just to make things clear but the Drill and Ceremonies Manual doesn't cover everything under the sun.  They don't tell people how to run their meetings or how to conduct activities and no one complains about it.  I don't see this as anything different.

Well, I'm not trying to pound on you, but let's see if we can sit you on the right path here C/Chief.

First of all, if you'll go back to the beginning of this topic you'll see that it concerns commands of a flight while they are at attention. Surely by now you've picked up on the fact that CAP uses the AF Drill and Ceremonies Manual, and "eyes" "click" isn't mentioned anywhere. Now, if this is something your unit wants to use to make sure the seatbelts are fastened, fine, but it's not a drill command, and therefore has no business being used in formation.

Second, the Drill and Ceremonies Manual wasn't meant to cover everything, just Drill and Ceremony, and get ready for a life lesson, even if you don't like it, you still have to go by it. If you need to get the attention of a Flight, the command is "Attention".  If you don't like it, use your Chain of Command to try and get it changed, but you don't get to make up your own rules.

Third, CAP does tell you how to run your meetings, or conduct an activity, so I'd suggest you get more familiar with CAPR 52-16. But before you read that, take a look at CAPR 5-4 and check out the definitions, which should make a lot of things clearer for you.

And finally, if you've never done it, start with AFPD 10-27, and read all of the AF guidance on CAP, then start with the CAP Constitution and read everything from there through the CAP regulations, it'll put you in a small minority of people who have ever done it, and it will give you a better understanding of how and why many things are done the way they are.

BuckeyeDEJ

Quote from: jimmydeanno on June 16, 2008, 06:56:53 PM
No matter how much "CAP Experience" a cadet has whatever branch they join will "re-train" them on how they want things done.

OK, screw it, then. Cadets should not get to test out of basic training days, nor should they get advanced grade. And forget any advanced consideration in ROTC or at USAFA. Apparently, the "CAP Experience" isn't supposed to be preparatory in any way. Guess the Air Force's expectations of CAP are set a little high. (Ref: AFI 10-2701)

Now, without the snippiness:

There's always been a problem in CAP with standardizing operations, to include D&C. It doesn't mean we settle for mediocrity -- it means we step up and get it right, and equip cadets with the knowledge they need to meet expectations of the Air Force and other military branches. Aim high.

I agree with Jimmy that  the cadet program should cultivate leaders and develop management skills. But the program is also an Air Force-funded program that's the best feeder system the Air Force has. We train leaders, we train strong Americans, and we do it in an Air Force context. So we do it the right way, every time. Or we'd better do it that way. Agreed, folks?


CAP since 1984: Lt Col; former C/Lt Col; MO, MRO, MS, IO; former sq CC/CD/PA; group, wing, region PA, natl cmte mbr, nat'l staff member.
REAL LIFE: Working journalist in SPG, DTW (News), SRQ, PIT (Trib), 2D1, WVI, W22; editor, desk chief, designer, photog, columnist, reporter, graphics guy, visual editor, but not all at once. Now a communications manager for an international multisport venue.

mikeylikey

What's up monkeys?

BuckeyeDEJ

Quote from: mikeylikey on July 12, 2008, 01:58:10 AM
Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on July 11, 2008, 11:56:33 PM
Aim high.

Actually........ "Above All"

:D
Didn't someone say that translates as "uber alles" in German? That's a little scary.

In any event, do it right or don't do it at all. Now that I've said that: "Thread, CLICK!"


CAP since 1984: Lt Col; former C/Lt Col; MO, MRO, MS, IO; former sq CC/CD/PA; group, wing, region PA, natl cmte mbr, nat'l staff member.
REAL LIFE: Working journalist in SPG, DTW (News), SRQ, PIT (Trib), 2D1, WVI, W22; editor, desk chief, designer, photog, columnist, reporter, graphics guy, visual editor, but not all at once. Now a communications manager for an international multisport venue.

jimmydeanno

Quote from: BuckeyeDEJ on July 11, 2008, 11:56:33 PM
OK, screw it, then. Cadets should not get to test out of basic training days, nor should they get advanced grade. And forget any advanced consideration in ROTC or at USAFA. Apparently, the "CAP Experience" isn't supposed to be preparatory in any way. Guess the Air Force's expectations of CAP are set a little high. (Ref: AFI 10-2701)

Now that you've got that out of your system...

First question I have for you is regarding the "testing out of basic training days."  What is this?  I've never heard of it.

The "CAP experience,", by our own regulations, is supposed to "...provide the youth of our nation with a quality program that enhances their leadership skills through an interest in aviation, and simultaneously provide service to the United States Air Force and the local community."

The reference AFI makes no mention of CAP being a military preparation program for the cadets - not one single time.  The AF's expectations of CAP are to maintain staffing and training to accomplish AFAMs - that's it.

The military is willing to shell out some money for the leadership skills that the cadet has from their experience in CAP.  They aren't promoting people because they learned how to make their bunk at encampment or how to drill at the local squadron.  The military affords advanced grade for many reasons including; recruiting a few people, being an Eagle Scout and signing up for 6 years instead of 4.  None of which include any military former indoctrination/familiarization.

Everyone going through basic training goes through the same training program regardless of their experience.  If a CAP cadet decides to join the Army or Navy instead of the Air Force, they'll have to be taught how to drill all over again - what won't change is their developed leadership skills, which is actually in our goals for our CAP cadets.

The advanced grade helps our cadets (as well as those who got advanced grade for other reasons) by enabling them to test for SSgt during their first enlistment, increases their chances of getting SrA below the zone, lets them not live in the dorms sooner (being married will fix that though :) ), etc.  It lets them advance their careers faster than the traditional "entry level" enlistee and get paid a little more.  They don't get any special perks at the USAFA or the Prep School - their CAP experience just lets them focus more on the things they don't know.
If you have ten thousand regulations you destroy all respect for the law. - Winston Churchill