CPPT: Females required when cadet females present?

[EMT-83]

Make that shouldn't be alone with cadets...

[LtCol057]

Everyone is worried about lawsuits because of the male-female thing. But it's just a matter of time before a lawsuit is filed because of the blatant discrimination against the female cadets. To me, if you don't allow female cadets to participate in overnight activities because of no female senior presence, you're begging for a lawsuit.  As far as the regions/wings requiring female senior presence, if the local squadron doesn't have a female senior, is the region/wing going to furnish one so the activity can take place?  That's like the feds requiring states to do such and such, but then not providing the money to comply.  

Education is a key to this.  Teach the cadets, female and male, of what the CPPT is and says.  I know, it's probably more reactive than proactive, but be realistic. You can't protect 100% of the people 100% of the time.

[lordmonar]

Here's the kicker....if your wing has a policy that says you "must have" one senior member of each gender to match your cadets.....and you don't have a female senior member.....it does not mean Females can't particpate.....it means the activity cannot happen!

We cannot discriminate based on gender.  It is as simple as that.


So...if you live in a region where you have this rule....you should communicate it up the chain to get that policy revoked.

[Hawk200]

...it means the activity cannot happen!

I was wondering if someone's unit was smart enough to do this. I've seen cancelled activities for this very reason. There was grumbling, but the reason was explained. A few weeks later there were suddenly a lot of mothers that wanted to join up. I guess cancellations can identify certain needs.

Even if there is no stipulation in pubs that a female senior be present with a female cadet, I find it disturbing that some think it's actually a bad idea. Then again, most of the units I've been in, we had at least three or four female seniors, so it wasn't usually a problem.

[tarheel gumby]

Kurt LaFond (CAP's Chief of Cadet Programs) said it best when I had the opportunity to attend a TLC course that he was an instructor at. For any questions about CPPT that you may have you should go through your legal officer. By the way TLC is very good training for any senior member that works with cadets or may work with cadets.

[jimmydeanno]

Kurt LaFond

Curt

[tarheel gumby]

TY Sorry I am running on about 5 hours of sleep.

[tarheel gumby]

Another way around the problem is to recruit the Mothers of the Female Cadets, as Cadet Sponsor members

[Hawk200]

Another way around the problem is to recruit the Mothers of the Female Cadets, as Cadet Sponsor members

I wouldn't call that a "way around the problem" as it is a viable solution. A female senior is a female senior, regardless of their specific status. The CSM was actually intended to serve as chaperones, drivers, etc. It's a membership without having to worry about thinks like PD and rank.

[Stonewall]

Another way around the problem is to recruit the Mothers of the Female Cadets, as Cadet Sponsor members

I know, this is for another topic and has actually been hashed out on CAP Talk before, but I for one try not to recruit parents.  In my experience, I've had more problems than not.

I hate the term "Squadron Mom".

[jimmydeanno]

I'm glad that I've never been in a wing that required that both sex seniors be at activities.  It's quite obvious that the lawyers at NHQ have probably reviewed the 52-10 and feel that just having two CPPT certified seniors at any overnight activity is kosher.

Heck, I do plenty of activities in which I am the only senior (not overnight) and we have both male and female cadets.  Sometimes there just aren't people available and I'm not going to have our cadet program suck because we can't get another senior there that day.  It also lets us switch off activities so none of us get burnt out.

Just recently we had a SAREX where we had only male seniors and there was one female cadet there and about 25 male cadets.  It was an overnight activity, everything was fine.  

Now, when it comes to extended activities, like encampment, I think it would be in everyone's best interest to have a female senior member available - not because the assumption is that something bad is going to happen, but just because there are certain things that males are just not that good with dealing with and it is best to have another adult female there to help.

I do think that in many instances the local leadership fails to develop the required relationships with the cadets parents to build that trust level.  They don't keep the parents informed about activity details, etc.

I remember going to COS - we were not permitted to be in the (sleeping) room of a member of the opposite sex.  So during the evenings when we'd get together for our study groups, etc we would have to exclude the only female cadets in our seminar (there weren't common areas that I remember).  In fact, I specifically remember this particular cadet asking me for some computer help and I went into her room with the door wide open, standing next to her desk (which was 3 feet into the room just inside the door) and some grouchy senior started chewing me out for giving her some help.  The entire week this poor girl was practically ostracized because of some insane rule – betcha that was fun...

Personally though, I think that there is probably some pretty good explanation behind why the rule is the way it is and we should probably just stick with that.  Otherwise, I think that if you aren't comfortable working with cadets and treating them all equally or fear something that probably won't happen – perhaps the cadet program isn't the best place for you. (not "you" specific, "you" generic)

[RADIOMAN015]

Very interesting point on that female required policy & potential discrimination.  Would be interesting to learn how many wings/groups/squadrons have this policy.  We don't BUT again we have enough female senior members.   I think also there's a big difference between overnight camping and just a squadron activity that is held all day long.  HOWEVER, that being said, remember that CAP Regulations are the "mimimum" standard you have to meet.  As a senior member, you still bear some risk with any cadet activities you are supervising.  It all gets down to what YOUR comfort level is!!  It's unfortunate the way the world turns today as far as potential litigation!!!
RM

Here's the kicker....if your wing has a policy that says you "must have" one senior member of each gender to match your cadets.....and you don't have a female senior member.....it does not mean Females can't particpate.....it means the activity cannot happen!
We cannot discriminate based on gender.  It is as simple as that.

[Stonewall]

I just learned that this is a squadron policy, not group or higher.  I'm not happy with it and will address it with the commander.

[jeders]

I just learned that this is a squadron policy, not group or higher.  I'm not happy with it and will address it with the commander.

Good luck.

[Timbo]

I just learned that this is a squadron policy, not group or higher.  I'm not happy with it and will address it with the commander.

Good luck.

+1.  It is either a policy left over from a previous Commander, or one this guy put in place to cover his butt.

If it is a policy the new Commander created, there is very little chance of you getting that policy changed.   

[SoCalCAPOfficer]

As a Sq Commander it is my policy that no female cadet can be in a room with a door shut or take a ride home from a male member unless a female member is also present.   In addition, if after a Sq meeting a female cadet is still there waiting for a ride from home, I insist that one of our female senior members remain until that ride comes.  Overly cautious, I do not think so.  Just common sense in todays world.

[Eclipse]

I insist that one of our female senior members remain until that ride comes. 

...and if they don't?

Which one gets disciplined?  The senior who has to get home, the female cadet for being "female", or the non-member parents for being late?

And its OK to be alone with a male cadet or for a female staffer to be alone with a male cadet?

I fully understand the sentiment and idea, but in practice its difficult to enforce. 

[NC Hokie]

As a Sq Commander it is my policy that no female cadet can be in a room with a door shut or take a ride home from a male member unless a female member is also present.   In addition, if after a Sq meeting a female cadet is still there waiting for a ride from home, I insist that one of our female senior members remain until that ride comes.  Overly cautious, I do not think so.  Just common sense in todays world.

Please allow me to play devil's advocate here...

In your first example, am I to imply that male senior/male cadet or female senior/female cadet are okay in a closed room?  Also, how, exactly, does the sex of the second member affect the situation?

[jeders]

As a Sq Commander it is my policy that no female cadet can be in a room with a door shut or take a ride home from a male member unless a female member is also present.   

And what about a female cadet talking to a male chaplain in a room with the door shut?

While I will give you an A for effort, actually an A- but whose keeping track, rules like these which apply so narrowly do no one any good. And making them apply uniformly (i.e. a male cadet cannot be alone in a room with a female senior unles there's another male present) just make it impossible to run a program. As a 2 time DCC and soon to be Sqdn CC, lighten up Francis.

[Major Carrales]

I was once at a regular meeting, during my first command, and I was alone.   That was when the unit's senior membership was dying due to some stronger wording in CAPR 60-1 (an effect I have worked to insure never happens in our unit again). I should point out that then,like now, I was driving 80 miles to my meetings.

Parents just dropped off their children and drove off before I could tell them the meeting was effectively cancelled.  Cell phones were not as universal then.  I had the cadet practice their drill as we, an older Cadet Chief, contacted parents to come and pick up their children.  This was outdoors in good weather at a Reserve Center.  Still, in the eyes of CAP, I was effectively alone.

Then, a horrible thing happened, a cadet fell to the ground.  He appearently had a heart condition.  The other cadets made a huddle around and I sat next to the child as comfortingly as I could until his mother arrived.  They had failed to indicate this on the child's form.

It truely was a horrible thing to handle that totally alone.  So much so, that I resigned my command and was away from the Unit for two years.  I regret that...the unit suffered and nearly died.  They needed me, and I had run away.  It had reached the point that the uniform was like an unwanted burden.  When that point is reached, I reconed, it was time to go away for a while.  I'm truly sorry my brother and sister airmen, I should have stayed.

When I returned to active CAP duty in 2005, I came with the idea in mind that that would never happen to anyone in the unit ever again.  no man would be a SQUADRON (there would be a Staff,not just fair weather fliers) and there would never be a situation when one person was alone.

A lesson to all of you should be learned here from this.

As to the "gender" question, incidents can happen when there is one CAP Officer present or 100.  We must, to avoid that, live up to our creed...SEMPER VIGILANS!!!